Caroline L'huillier and Sylvie Lubow

00:03 Hi, my name is Sylvie lubow. I am 30 years old about to be 31. Today's date is September 15th, 2016. We're here in New Orleans, Louisiana, and I'm talking to my new friend Caroline.

00:23 Hi, I'm your new friend Caroline. My name is Caroline Lewis. My age is 52.

00:33 Older than that too early. Today's date is September 15th. 2016 location is New Orleans, Louisiana. And I am the interview or a person with a story. Yes. What's your story you mentioned before the recording? You had a really long military career. Let's let's start. We're going to jump around a little bit, but I'm curious to know how you got into the service.

01:07 I was born at Cherry Point Naval Air Station to enable family. My my mom and dad were both Navy. They met in the Navy. So I was born in Cherry Point Naval Air Station my family in Oak we grew up all over the United States.

01:24 So I went to four different high schools for different grade schools.

01:30 I didn't like traveling whole lot.

01:34 I don't like moving I like traveling but I don't like moving. So that's my story living is different than traveling about moving with making new friends making new friends is really tough sometimes but do you know once you make friends you have friends all over the place?

01:54 Did you have a favorite place in all those places that you?

01:59 Be at the last place. I left any more.

02:10 She was I think Louisiana spin the favorite New Orleans. What about it?

02:15 Dollar people here are awesome. They let you live. Well, yes. I mean, it's a different. It shouldn't be part of Louisiana. I don't think New Orleans is just a different city.

02:33 And that you think it's the people that make it the people it's the place. It's the history. It's there's something always going on the food. It's hard to the good food and The Nightlife just everything. It's really fun until it gets swamped by Hurricane and then

02:51 You start looking at other places to live. But for right now in New Orleans is on. Do you remember some of the

02:59 Play first memories you had of being here things. You saw things, you heard.

03:06 Woochi was back in 1972. What I do remember is driving over the the Mississippi River Bridge in Baton Rouge to the left. So tall and pretty but it wasn't for me. It's a it's a very pretty sight of its Mississippi River. You're traveling over your little kid. Yes. So I think that was probably the neatest thing but we traveled all over us all so many things from riding trains across the country to

03:35 Almost every state

03:39 And imagine your parents were both in the Navy.

03:52 My brother was in the Navy. The only time I saw my dad cry was when I went into the army.

03:59 But so my son wants to go into the tub Services. Well, I guess we'll see.

04:07 Do you remember any early conversations with your family about joining? Like was it ever a question whether or not you would join?

04:18 They left it up to me, but there were things I wanted out of the world in the Army could provide it for me like a guaranteed trip to Europe too bad. It was firing nuclear missiles, but she could you know college and travel the world through it also was sent to a war one. So I mean they they got their pound of Flesh.

04:49 Can you I guess walk me through in more detail what your enlistment process with like and and then sort of what your career in the military was like so I enlisted so that's kind of interesting. So I served for 18 years, but I enlisted in 19 it was December 26th. I went into the army 26 1983. So I served active duty for 4 years to those are in Germany and other two were at Fort Sill Oklahoma. So I completed my two or four years almost went to the National Guard right after that.

05:29 And I spent two years in the National Guard I got out because I didn't want to be an engineer and operating bulldozers. I thought I had to go to the National Guard unit in my hometown, but turns out 10 years later. I found out I didn't have to so I spent two years in National Guard got out for 10 years and then found out I could do whatever I wanted a National Guard. So became a Black Hawk helicopter crew chief because I love to fly and it was great fun.

05:59 Wow, see you if you so I got off and I got out. I got out and essentially 1990 and then got back in in the year 2000 and then served until 2014. So four total of 18 years 18, how was the second portion of your service different than the whole lifetime? I mean different lifetimes cuz I was married at that point had a family at sorry in in the first in the section II part of my life Act 2 act 3 that was too so I was married and had a family she supported me they were being really Pro.

06:57 Military and conservative and all that stuff and

07:01 They like the respect the military gave I guess, huh? I don't know. I don't know but

07:11 Yeah, okay. So you flew Blackhawk helicopters named them and flute in them. I did everything but wiggle the dust X the joystick so I didn't pass out peanuts, but it was closed. So I mean I was in charge of the maintenance though. The passengers would ever be no the safe handling of the aircraft.

07:42 Just all over. Oh, I was also the door gunner in Iraq. So I mean operated machine gun, you know protect the helicopter and all that, but when I wasn't getting shot out, I loved him. I loved you know, I was really surprised at the Army or the National Guard would pay me to fly and it's Grace thing when you're not getting shot at flying how they pay you to fly.

08:10 I mean, it's just amazing you can do.

08:13 Amazing. I love to fly and being the air must be just the freedom maybe a dovetails into me being transgender somehow. I don't know how a plumbus. Shed, but I like the fly and I don't know travel.

08:30 Like a fly in the causes and I wasn't able to fly on my own eye vision is bad to wear contacts. So become a pilot. I found out was impossible for me. So, you know, if the longest time I didn't think I could fly but I found out later I could fly as a crew member and not have to worry about the contacts plus it's in the National Guard's. So some of those Pilots are flying anyway, but it was great. I really liked it. So skipping the war though from 2003 to 2005 when we came back from Iraq and due to some of the things that happened in Iraq coupled with family issues. I stopped flying. Oh my got a different job. I became an officer and the computer

09:26 Corps called signal Corps, so I became an officer for computers because my civilian job is based on computers and information technology. So they dovetailed and I was able to make that work until they put me on trial on discharge me.

09:48 Incandescent 14 for being transgender

09:53 Do you want to talk about that more and more detail? So how does it begin? I was born at a very early age. I am from is long from the h from from being.

10:12 I recall from 405 I don't recall if it was 4 or 5, but I know where I was in the world at that point. I was going to 45 cuz we are in I think Southern California that point and I told him I was but I felt that I should have.

10:32 Been born a girl or woman. I don't remember exactly but we had kind of that really short discussion. She being it being 60s and being military.

10:45 It was never discussed a few times in my childhood. She may have or may not have seen me dressed as myself but not as the boys, but she knew.

10:59 Then also all the time and my birthday is today after Halloween. So usually Halloween and my birthday were sources of great pain.

11:10 Ms. Fun as Halloween is you know, you can dress up and put on costumes and stuff.

11:17 Pause able to be myself and it turns out that a lot of my birthday parties were held because of a female's the holiday. Holiday, but it's Halloween and you know things are going on. So my birthday would be held on Halloween. I just realized that I spent I spent probably two or three Halloweens address is Caroline back then also as a child and my folks still didn't nobody put things together when they did maybe they didn't I didn't transition until after that died not because there were living but because you know, I need overcame my fear.

11:52 And I forgot where we were.

11:54 So I'm just going yeah, right. So I knew I was transgender. I thought I could ignore it.

12:05 We're going to the military interesting Lee enough the military for a lot of trans people. It's called the flight into masculinity.

12:16 And what I've realized you noticed that the trans women will go there trying to prove themselves as men.

12:25 And the trans men will also be doing the same thing because they know that they know or feel that they can be treated equally.

12:36 And it's acceptable in society for them to be more masculine or or values that set of skills in Sao.

12:52 So basically have two sets of people trying to find themselves. And so I mean that's kind of, you know, I wanted to travel I wanted the education.

13:00 I want him to smile on my turns. I want to go to Europe and I hadn't been to Europe yet and army said they can guarantee me two years in Europe and the college funds. So I took the bait I didn't like what I was doing and my trans issues are still there, but ignored it or fought it off or took drugs or whatever.

13:22 For a long time so I mean that was working. So I got married. Well, I got out.

13:30 Found somebody

13:33 Through blind date and it turns out I don't know we got married.

13:41 That's another conversation. So I'm in the military. Right and I'm in a figure, you know, I've made it this far one.

13:50 I made it this far. Maybe I can go further or maybe maybe maybe I mean, I have a saying I say Hope Floats and so a lot of times.

14:04 Are we live on Hope?

14:08 And I hope that you know many things will change.

14:13 But nothing did so I'm still trans got married.

14:20 How to child

14:22 And then got back in just

14:28 I don't know why I got back in. It was really surprised. I mean I got baking sowilo cuz I want to serve I like serving. I just didn't like what I was doing the first time so and I really like being a crew chief cuz in the National Guard I love the National Guard.

14:45 I love being able to help my fellow neighbor.

14:51 Rather than kill them.

14:53 Which I really did. Enjoy.

14:57 So I like the state mission of the National Guard the federal mission where we got deployed, but I liked what I was doing. It was probably a good distraction from the trans issues for a while.

15:13 But not for a long time probably by 2001.

15:18 I knew that I was going to have to transition.

15:25 But it's really scary. And I think I said before that my need had to overcome my fear and so by 2001. I knew I was probably going to have to transition.

15:39 But I'm scared. Like I said, so in the end of 2003.

15:45 I got the point so that put transition on ice for a while.

15:59 So I got deployed to Iraq.

16:08 In 2003

16:23 While I was at their my son died.

16:28 I was dealing with a trans issues.

16:33 So I came home after my son died for 3 weeks.

16:43 Spent three weeks here had to go back and it was really tough. And for the longest time.

16:51 I wanted to kill myself.

16:54 And I thought the way to do it would be to.

16:59 Somehow get shot or killed while I was in Iraq.

17:04 So at least I would be buried with honors and respect.

17:09 Because I knew I knew when I transitioned or if I did.

17:15 All that would be gone. I would lose it all.

17:30 And I did.

17:31 I started transitioning in 2009.

17:38 With the self-medicating

17:43 The Army the National Guard was in the process of discharging me for PTSD from action in a rack on top of my son and all the term well, so they're going to process me for PTSD to discharge me when they found out through the VA cuz I was going to I was going to the VA for PTSD treatment after we got back from Iraq.

18:11 And after Katrina we got

18:15 Got back from Iraq in 2000.

18:20 2005

18:23 And I'm Katrina happened. So we were deployed for another 6 months.

18:29 And it was awful so

18:38 So I quit flying.

18:43 I didn't want to leave my wife a widow.

18:49 After having lost a son.

18:58 Looking back on it probably would have been better.

19:01 I had to do it all over again.

19:04 I'm happy with who I am. I just fall out the price.

19:09 Of transitioning

19:20 It's really tough. So.

19:25 I can't change the past and I can't travel in time. So I'm just left with hope.

19:37 Hope that things get better with my family. Mainly the good news is that I kept my civilian job here in New Orleans. The only people that really stuck by me.

19:51 NY Church my wife and my kids and my guard

20:00 Said I wasn't good enough.

20:09 So the National Guard in the midst of trying to discharge me for PTSD.

20:17 Found out through my medical records at the VA that I was transgender.

20:25 So

20:26 They started processing me for being transgender instead.

20:31 Put me on trial.

20:34 My peers the people that fought with blood with and cried.

20:40 With decided I wasn't good enough either.

20:45 So they discharged me and kick me up. They took my rank and then kick me out September of 2014.

21:01 That's my military story.

21:07 I'm sure there's many.

21:12 Yeah, I mean that's incredibly painful.

21:24 You mentioned you mentioned that you kept your civilian job while you were here. And that was a community supported you and I'm wondering what what that felt like in comparison to all the other stuff that whatever never find. I had a good job and

21:50 I knew in the midst of you know, all the turmoil that I mean, I knew that I was going to lose my family and

22:01 I tried to hold out as long as possible with a National Guard but I just couldn't do it and I forgot the rest just how how it felt to feel supported by a car. It was terrifying because I knew I was going to lose everything and if I lost my job.

22:25 I didn't know how I was going to get another one cuz I have friends who are professionals that are highly qualified that live on the streets practically because they're transgender.

22:36 Parts

22:40 My company stock buy me the value of a good employee who has good skills and customer service.

22:49 And they don't care what my gender is.

22:55 So it was very important. You know, I can eat.

23:00 Enable me to live.

23:04 And that kind of loyalty though will has already paid off. You know, I'll follow my boss cuz he's stuck by me and my company wherever they want me to go.

23:29 Is there beyond your company? Is there some other form of community where you feel valued with in New Orleans?

23:50 Yeah, I guess the transgender.

23:55 Sucks though spending all your time with trans people.

24:02 I mean, it doesn't suck cuz they're great people. I love them every one of them there. They're awesome people. They've been through so much.

24:13 But I'm

24:16 Identity isn't as a trans person. It says a woman.

24:21 I don't want to wear that label. I don't want to be trans.

24:33 I guess I take there are a lot of questions I have about your story. So if at any point, you don't want to answer, that's fine.

24:42 I'm curious to know more about you know, what was going through your head when?

24:51 When the guard made the decision to stop processing to stop discharging you for PTSD and instead based on your trans identity.

25:02 I thought that was dirty pool about was wrong. Clearly. I was trans and clearly it was against the rules. But clearly I had two years left and if the guard had you wanted to they could have stuck me in.

25:17 Some basement for 30 days or 60 days to complete my to my two years remaining of gone obligation. I could do it in one Fell Swoop and everything if they wanted to keep him in the could have I felt they went out of their way to discharge me.

25:38 I was in an infantry unit of all things may be a shin to go to amateur and it sucked being an infantry and I hated every day of it, but that's what I'm flying again.

25:50 In the Black Hawk at that point was more than I could handle so.

25:55 I really didn't want to see another helicopter, but turns out that my unit was right across from an airport.

26:04 Black helicopters flying over everyday

26:11 But I didn't like the thought that I thought I never I never told I never told him I didn't like the Infantry unit, but it was the only place I could go for that position. So I was kind of stuck there.

26:25 And it's hyper-masculine and what really aggravates me was that the trans men.

26:34 We're allowed. I mean right now transervices. It's open for transervice, but historically transmen.

26:46 Or transmasculine women

26:49 War

26:52 Where he was at random and they generally people allowed a certain leeway for Trans men in in the guard or in the service, you know, the stronger the more manly you were a lot of time that's that's a value of its commodity almost do you need strong people and all that stuff and I think I'm discharging me was was the height of misogyny and trans massage because I have been doing the job for 18 years fall asleep commendations and became an officer.

27:28 All kinds of things.

27:31 Yet I wasn't good enough at that point. It was wrong. It was wrong all the way around they knew better.

27:43 If you could talk to any of the decision-makers.

27:48 Today, what would you say today or Tony kiss my ass really filled it was

28:00 About

28:02 About six months after I got in discharging 2015 my old unit the helicopter unit crashed a helicopter off the coast of Florida.

28:19 Who killed everybody on board?

28:23 The crew for my friends

28:29 When I went to their feet to the wakes.

28:40 Biome

28:42 My old friends my brothers and sisters.

28:46 Ignored me

28:50 I felt like I was a ghost so I think

28:55 I think the stigma I mean everybody knows I'm a good person and

29:06 Excuse me. So women do you know?

29:16 I would assume now, it's different or not as bad. I don't know what they open transervice.

29:24 But I don't know so that made me really upset that my

29:37 I don't know. I think that was probably the final installed.

29:41 So I probably tell him yeah kiss my ass.

29:57 Is there

29:59 Something you wished or someone that would have helped you during that time.

30:22 I don't know. What kind of help.

30:32 Talk about being the loneliest person in the room. Holy cow when I went into the when I walked in. It was awful in the trial.

30:40 The board and they called it aboard but it was a trial judge and the worst part.

30:51 The worst part was

30:55 Things literally alone in a

30:59 Huge room full of people and there were people that I'd spent

31:06 16 years 14 years old

31:14 That's what stigma will do to you.

31:20 Yeah, so talk about being alone these person of the room. Thank God. I had a I had to fight for a Jaguar. They wanted to make me do it without a lawyer at all. Don't worry was my only friend. I fell and personally my family and the guard I know the Guard the guard keeps worst people. I mean how they rationalized is charging me over.

31:49 The people that I've kept

31:52 It was unfathomable.

31:58 I feel the same way about my wife or her first husband was.

32:02 My ex-wife her first husband.

32:09 Yeah, so is she still has a relationship with him, but for me she won't talk to me.

32:16 You haven't seen me and I haven't seen some of the kids for five years has been the fifth year of transition and ever this month and ever since.

32:29 Like I said, we live on hope I hope someday my family. My kids will come back.

32:42 If years from now, they'll listen to this recording there anything you want to say to them?

33:02 Death Thursday, holy cow.

33:11 Yes.

33:18 That I love her and I miss her.

33:25 However, I'm going to miss some hope someday.

33:30 We can meet again. I think the worst part I rode on that she can take the form.

33:44 I'm driving. I felt like nobody's daughter and

33:50 And a parent with a holiday.

33:53 Anna I hope I hope someday I hope there it is. I hope someday I hope someday I don't know things will change.

34:15 I miss him.

34:22 Are there things in your life today that make you feel proud?

34:36 I'm still alive.

34:48 Oh, and I'm the one of the lucky ones to isn't that sad. At least I kept my job.

35:02 I have friends. I've lost three friends to suicide.

35:12 Transference not counting

35:18 The bats

35:44 Is there

35:47 Anything else that you want to share that we haven't talked about.

36:00 Hogan transportation

36:06 Cats with it

36:14 I just want to say thank you for sharing your story and thanks for asking me to share my story.

36:22 Being really generous with your openness and

36:27 It's been a real honor to sit here in this conversation socks the pain of going through it. But let me not think it needs to be told.

36:37 Yeah, it doesn't get easier.

36:43 You know what? I would have thought, you know, there are times when I feel like this is the hardest thing I've ever done but it isn't and that's the sad thing. My son actually meeting my wife at the airport that day was the worst thing I've ever gone through.

37:00 The ride home

37:04 From the airport

37:09 The second-worst thing was Taken 2 and 1/2 days to get home.

37:12 Oh my God, you know your son's Dan your wife is alone.

37:20 So they told me oh wow around the time so

37:27 I'm sitting in my tent one morning and on my patoon Sergeant came in and asked me if one of my son's was sick or something. And I said no. I just talked to my wife tonight before and everything was okay. I said well you need to go to the chaplain wants to talk to you.

37:47 He's in his tent.

37:54 Yeah, he's in his tent so I walked in the pain knowing.

38:01 Something bad happened

38:03 But not what?

38:05 And when I sat down

38:09 Ain't nobody told me.

38:15 He said one of your sons has died.

38:19 I said I have three sons which one.

38:27 Said he didn't know and I got a phone number.

38:32 On a piece of paper

38:35 So I had to

38:38 How to make an awful phone call

38:42 What happened?

38:45 Who was that's the hardest thing that's third hardest thing. I guess this is for Thelma God, really?

39:01 That's it. I guarantee.

39:05 Do you want us to share anything else about your son?

39:09 Who passed?

39:12 Yeah.

39:14 It was a twin.

39:19 What was his name Joel?

39:23 His brother is Justin.

39:27 And I don't know how Justin Justin does it makes an identical twin.

39:34 Subtropical

39:37 They're such good kids. I miss them.