Sue Manlove and Lorraine Scurti

00:07 My name is Lorraine. Scurti. I'm 52 years old today's date is September 30th. I mean 2008 we're at Northern Illinois University and I'm going to be talking with Sue manlove and she is my friend and my coworker.

00:28 And I'm Soo man wolf and I'm 61 homo. 62. Today's date is September 30th 2008. We are at the NIU Campus in Dekalb, Illinois, and I'm talking with a rain who's been my friend for a long time and also my coworker.

00:48 Okay, we're supposed to ask questions and answer them. So I'm going to start we're going to jump right into talking about February 14th 2008 because that was traumatic for NIU and for us as individuals so soon.

01:07 Everybody has their own story. So why don't you start by telling me what how you heard about the activities that were strange on September 4th September on February 14th, like how you first heard that something was going on how you responded to it? Just anything that gets stuck in your head. So it started out as a pretty typical day. We are located in zulauf Hall which is right next to Cole Hall and history department is on the 7th floor. So that's where my office is. So we get a really good view of a lot of Campus being that high up and I can say it started out as a typical day. I was doing my normal things with my computer and you don't typing away whatever and one of her professors JD Powers came running frantically into the room and telling us there's

02:07 Shooting do you know anything about it? There's been a shooting and we're like no, I think at that point the only people in the office for myself and Rachel the student worker. We had a couple other faculty members that wandered in and out. He said he had been in class at DuSable which is the next building over and said that one of his students had gotten a call on the cell phone that they're going to shooting so he told his students to stay put and he would find out so he came racing over and we didn't know anything about it and immediately, you know, we looked out the windows and my gosh you could see police officers. You could see police officers with Don's saw K9 dogs saw students outside running some of them lying on the ground and about that time. We started getting phone calls from the Dean's office saying, you know, there's been a shooting stay in your office we got

03:07 Emails we had faculty calling Brian Sandberg. One of the other professors called from another building he was at to say what's going on and I told him I would get back to him told him to stay in the classroom to keep the kids in the classroom. Don't let him out till we know what's going on and at that point it was just total.

03:29 Mania we we couldn't believe such a thing was happening and yet it was and so we kept looking out the window to see what we could see my gosh. I kind of like 23 ambulances at one time Chase. It was stuff. You didn't want to see but somehow you couldn't pull yourself away from the window not to watch so our time was spent with watching catching phone calls from people trying to tell them what was going on. I'm several faculty members came in and walk themselves in our office with us. We found out later the reason they wanted us all in lockdown was because they weren't sure if there was just one shooter or if there was another one that had run off and being that we are the building closest Kohl's.

04:18 It would make sense that he would have run into our building but then we found out later there wasn't another shooting. So we all stayed in the room talking to each other not believing what was going on panicky, but yet not panicky until they told us it was safe to leave the building or go home.

04:41 It was unbelievable. How did it affect you in the following days like immediately will while it was happening. I think you were too.

04:57 In shock to really feel a whole lot of anything, but once you left

05:04 It started sinking in just what happened and perhaps how close you were to being in danger and then it became very scary and very sad. I know I called my daughters who have out-of-state to let them know I was okay because I didn't know how quickly it would get to the press. It was just this feeling of our our world our NIU our DeKalb where we've always felt safe was no longer safe.

05:40 And the things that happened to other people other places, we're now happening to us here and it got it was very hard. It was very hard. I'm not a religious person but I happen to have a a program on TV that I had taped on CMT. It was a lot of the country stars doing Christian music and I found myself turning that on and listen to that which really wasn't typical for me because religion and I aren't necessarily the best of friends these days. I

06:17 Watched everything on TV.

06:20 It was one of those things that you couldn't drag yourself away from washing if it's like you don't want to watch it. But so much of what you saw I saw out my window. I saw stuff that I will never ever ever forget and hope to never ever see you again and it just made me feel in the following days. Very sad, very violated.

06:42 And very worried about where we're at. And what's happening. How could this happen to us in Dekalb could question.

06:50 A question. I don't know. Yeah, I don't I don't either those are things that aren't supposed to happen out here. I was glued to the TV to just but I didn't see everything you did. Yeah, you were on the other side of town on the other side of campus in the art building and we were just hearing things but not seeing it not seeing it and we were getting reports of bleeding people in different buildings. And of course at Virginia Tech we had wandering shooter and we had no idea if there were multiple people with anger and guns or or what was going on. So we're just in limbo but that you know, we we kept everybody contained and

07:39 Before I left I remember looking at Joan. I've told you about Joan Wright and John and I are Huggy not with each other, but we were then we just looked at each other and like collapsed into each other's arms for a minute. And by the time I left the building I was one of the I was the only one heading out of the building at that time and into the parking lot was empty were you afraid?

08:04 I was watchful I was watchful but there weren't that many cars left but there were four helicopters hovering over the building now, that's freaky. It it out it is because I saw those two and you don't know.

08:21 You don't know if there police helicopters who yeah, you know who are watching to shoot or if there news helicopters or what? I know when we left the building three or four of us together, but I'm not sure what would be worse. I mean, I saw a lot of things that I don't want to see again that will never go out of my mind, but at least they gave me some sense of what was going on before you were on the other side of Campus not seeing things which was good cuz you don't have those Visions, but you had to be more at a sense of loss or question because you you just heard all kinds of rumors and saw nothing. I don't know what would have been harder. I don't either get it all sucked butter and I was shaking up for a long time. I still am shaken up sometimes when I just

09:16 Would I look at Cole Hall and I think

09:21 You know, you know, you know how I feel like by buildings and you're just you're thinking about work or whatever, but when I when I walk by call Hall and I think about it being cold, haha.

09:33 I get very upset and I'm not sure if it's morning kind of sorrow or if it's more of a global sorrow or or what it is, but it definitely hit me right in the forehead like a big brick and it changed.

09:50 How I how I am.

09:53 In what way I'm not I'm not quite sure. I I I don't know if I've always been paranoid.

10:00 But paranoia is defined as an irrational fear. And now it's rash now, it's irrational fear and

10:09 I don't know. I'm still dealing with it. I gained 20 lb from stress-eating.

10:16 And you know, you know, I'm medicated so far so I don't know what else to do except, you know, I accept it, but I know one thing I really started to notice.

10:29 When we get a news report that a breadline in Baghdad got bombed or something sometimes I mean I've gotten so callous to hearing that on the news and now I really stop and think about how that affected all the people that dig around grilled now.

10:50 But for me, the biggest thing on that day was getting an email from my nice cuz I did not know where she was on campus. Right and she was what she's a senior now, so she was a junior then.

11:02 When she emailed me and told me that she was with her friend and normally they walk through cole-hall but they they didn't they were talking and they missed their turn to go in through the bill, right? So she could have been really right there. He could have been right there. It was bad enough that she was around the front of the building when everybody started running out.

11:26 And even though I have the maternal instincts of a snake, I really felt very protective of her and weirdly of all the other students.

11:38 I feel like we sort of take care of them. We secretaries we do we take care of them a lot. They come to us when they're lost I come to us when they're confused. They don't often come to us when everything is going right. Yeah, you know to tell us there. Okay, and everything is fine, but we we hear from them when they're having problems. So I think yeah, we do become more protective of them know Rachel our student worker should have been should have left the office in time to be in front of that building but she got sidetracked and didn't leave the office. And otherwise Rachel would have been out there and you know me I've grown such a fondness for Rachel that that the think that she might have been out in front is scary. Then you have a good idea what I mean then bright about Nina. Yeah, never be the same.

12:35 It's and it really I've developed a deeper empathy for people that live under these kind of conditions all the time where it never stops and in war or an abusive household or

12:53 I don't know. It's a level of existence. I never experienced before I've always been very safe except on a one-on-one basis, right? I mean I brought my kids up in DeKalb County, you know, it was it was a place you could let him run loose, you know, we didn't have to walk doors. They could ride their bicycle anywhere and you didn't worry about him in the small town in DeKalb County that we were in

13:21 All that is changed today. I look at my grandchildren and I worry about the world. They're growing up in and I worry about their safety. You know, I hear Kylie the seven year old is out riding her bike. You know, I'm on the way, you know, is she going to be okay cuz you hear about kids being snatched these were fears that we never had before because we lived in a safe society and every day we went to NIU and I know you was safe nothing ever happened and I you know nothing and I know it's it's like it's not safe anymore you here I find myself hearing noises in the hallway.

14:02 And yeah people out there and my first inclination is to go pick out the door to see who's on our floor and we used to not care like I hope they're not coming this way. They turn the other all darn, you know, but yeah now you hear sounds and you wonder you know who's out there because let's face it the way our offices, you know, you're in the same office with me now, you're no longer over in the art building and the way our office is worth the end of a hallway. Yeah, if anybody comes down that hallway there is nowhere for us to go except to go past them to get out. Right right. So we're kind of trap there if anything bad were to happen We've Got No Escape Route no way to get away.

14:52 Yeah, I thought about that in the art building to that I had nowhere to go but the office is behind me. Yeah, but

15:02 I know now if I come on campus for an evening saying that the professor I've had to go back and do something or they've called me in on a weekend which doesn't happen very often because they needed something or whatever. I bring my dog. Yeah, I don't come home. I bring my dog and how about that day that we found that faculty office had been where the lock had been like somebody tried to break your neck and that wasn't that long ago and it was way after the shooting but we found that one of the doors have been tampered with and that was scary because now we've got somebody was trying to break into offices that are building and did they get in and I was thinking are they in there? Were they in they were they in there? Yeah, that kind of stuff say I wasn't thinking about that. I wouldn't I didn't think they might still be there. They could be going to happen it could happen, but I didn't think about that. I just thought my God Something's Happened on her phone.

16:02 For now

16:05 And it brought back all

16:09 Earl lot of the fear that we felt on the 14th or since the 14th, I can keep it down under around afraid every day, but there's that underlying insecurities that never used to be there and I'll just take something like the person trying to break into one of the doors. It just pops it. All right back. Yeah. Yeah kind of like us a scab that you do you pick too soon.

16:42 And this is never going to go away. I don't think any of us will ever feel.

16:48 Totally safe now, and I don't think we should wear too close to Major urban area and it it could easily happen within an hour.

17:00 Are local news coverage?

17:06 You know Chicago was with a distant distant thing is getting closer all the time.

17:15 So well, how do you feel when you came back to work?

17:19 Are you kind of cool? How did you like those meetings and everything?

17:25 Part of me was glad to come back because it if you would think you would be going back to normalcy, you know being at home was hard because it wasn't vacation, you know, it wasn't fun time. It wasn't, you know a good reason for being gone you knew in your mind that you really believe belonged at work. Yeah, and so you couldn't get away from why you were at home. Some part of me was glad to go back and get back in the routine.

17:57 But I was very nervous about it. Very nervous. All the talk was still there. Yeah, I know cole-hall my gosh. It was so totally decorated with flowers and statues and poems and stuffed animals and everything and

18:20 It was hard to see that it was hard to stand there. Look at Cole Hall and know that people actually died in that building. I really died student said he hadn't done anything wrong or minding their own business trying to improve themselves. Yeah, they weren't even out partying and yellow. Do they have a better wife. That's what we want them to do anything. So yeah, it was very uncomfortable. They're very uncomfortable. And you worried what was going to be like when the students came back and how they were going to handle it and how they were going to be. No, cuz we went back before they did. Yeah, I think the meetings that they had were a good idea and it got people a chance to talk about it, but I don't know that I really gain that much from the meeting except knowing what that everybody else is freak to yeah. What about you?

19:20 I felt a similar way only mine was slathered with a healthy dose of why did they make us wait till Wednesday or Thursday? Okay to get any kind of guidance that we should have had our first that we should have had our first day back. I'm thinking that they shouldn't even if open to the office is officially but asked us to come back and deal with it and have the fan on find don't have counseling find out what we should do know we walk into our offices. The phone is ringing we pick it up. We've got a distraught parent on the phone and what the heck you going to do. We're flying by the seat of our pants. I think I think the university environments elitism was full-blown after that and you're right. I had a chance to voice at the meeting right and you're right. They should have had this planned better for us when we got back. We needed to counseling first. We were born after slot.

20:20 We were the ones that were expected to maintain control in the crisis right back up. He was coming to us. We weren't going to faculty true, you know, but it's pretty much always faculty coming to us. Yeah, we are the glue that holds everything together and that didn't change. We we stayed the glue only we upped what we were having to do from normal faculty-student dealings classes at cetera to dealing with professors who are upset and students who are upset parents who are up so I can say we got phone calls. Yeah, you know, I don't want to send my student back there. You do phone calls from student saying I don't want to come today, you know. Yeah, I don't think they prepared us well for that. No, they didn't we were like an afterthought again.

21:15 And but at least I had a a venue to vent that feeling. Yeah that bug me almost as much as anything else in the aftermath.

21:30 And I still don't think they have really fully prepared us or trained us for that sort of situation. I think we're still viewed as

21:42 Piper's phone answers, you know, they think they can send her on that fancy little flip chart right now. It tells us what to do if we have a shooter and I get a real charge out. Of course, I realize that we're supposed to read these things when we get them. We're not supposed to hang them up and wait for the activity to happen and then run to it. You don't say okay. How do I handle this? Yeah, but at the same time those what three or four little paragraphs

22:13 They were Common Sense things. Anyway, you know, it's still during the shooting over the yard building when we didn't know what was happening.

22:22 Somebody said hey, is anybody have one of those charts looking? I had one hanging by my eyes.

22:32 But this one covered. I don't know. So nothing was there no, nothing was there about you know, somebody's shooting people on campus right? Because why we never expected that to be something in that any of us would have to deal with it would be like

22:50 They give us tornado warning but they don't tell us what to do in a hurricane or anything like that because we don't get them here and I think it was the same sort of mentality, you know, we we don't get Shooters so and with some of the people working here, we should be ready for shooters.

23:12 Serious, you think about law school and stuff. Oh, yeah, you know how intense people get are you think about my former boss write how much the students hate her? Yeah. So we just mm of students every year, you know, it's not that far-fetched anymore to think what if I might just go round the bend and we do get students who are very upset over grades that they get that they aren't what they thought they should be. And yeah now my brain says instead of just being an unhappy student who is moaning and groaning and complaining or going to Mom and Dad about how unfair life is to them and Mom and Dad have to call and say oh my poor little child he is out like you know, how many of those weekend but now

23:58 I'm thinking what more would it take for that student to go over the edge?

24:05 And decide to get their revenge for their crappy grade that they did deserve because they weren't going to class and doing the things they should have guy could have but it's never their fault. Now, I never know what is going to take for them to step over that edge. Are we going to have another shooter?

24:24 Exactly. I think you know it's going to be more and more commonplace until.

24:31 Until we can figure out how to deal with it. I think we need a lot of very smart people thinking long and hard about how to deal with this new level.

24:43 Ave action

24:45 Our reaction

24:48 You know and right now I think we're just we're reeling because

24:54 Sort of as a society because it it's sort of a new thing even though it really isn't, you know, but in the course of human events, it has been happening that long right plus it has been happening here. Oh, yeah, you know, it's one of those things that you read about it, I'm buying another place as you know, and

25:13 You reading you know, it happened. Are you see it on TV, you know what happened because but because it's so far away. It doesn't take on a real reality just like just like the war and people dying over and Iraq or Iran, you know, we know it's happening but it were so far removed from it that it's not a close reality to ask and now this is very definitely is reality. The one thing that kept entering my mind that day and for many days after and it still happens once in awhile, I find myself wondering the same thing and that's the big question why why and I mentioned that to Stacy and you know, my daughter Stacy's of social worker and she said to me Mom you're never going to get that answer and you're just going to drive yourself crazy searching for it. And if you do get it it probably isn't going to be the answer you're looking for.

26:11 She's probably right, you know, so yeah, we'll probably never ever know why the student did this and why the student did it and I you I guess that's the part that just I don't understand because NIU was where everything good happen for that student. I have heard the theory that he came back here because he was coming home. This is where he was familiar and comfortable.

26:38 But why take out home when it's the other school that you're having problems and he says he doesn't need a recent that's right crazy times and crazy doesn't act rationally right or think rationally, and so maybe our inability to understand.

26:56 Could indicate that we could possibly be rational rational you and I both look this little list here. What is the meaning of life the universe and everything? I just try and get through it every day. Do I have to know that it means something?

27:23 What do you think about? Oh, no politics stay away from politics. Stay away from politics. I know how you get you'll get up on that soapbox and that'll be it. I'll never get another word in edgewise or do I have to turn your mic off and throw you out the door to get rid of you and then I'll understand the shooting cuz I too will be crazy.

27:46 I don't know. I've run out of things to say, how can I get that down on a calendar? So we remember today is Wednesday. Where did the date in October 30th for rain for an out of things out of things to say. Do you want to talk about your grandkids or anything? You know me. I'm always going to talk about what better than I have four grandchildren. I have three adorable beautiful little kids that live in South Carolina and I miss them so much and I would do anything to get them to live closer and Kylie as 7 and then second grade. She's an excellent student and she read so, well, aren't you just amazes? Me and Cassidy's 5 and she's in kindergarten this year and I feel sorry for the kindergarten teacher because she is her own person who does her own things on her own time schedule not time schedule and then there's Kayden, you know, the boy Yeah Yeah Yeahs demon child.

28:43 3 in a week less than a week could be three Friday. Oh, no, and it just doesn't seem possible and some know it doesn't it doesn't resolve their they're just so much fun. And I miss them and then I have the new little grand-daughter. I haven't met and probably won't but that's another sad story. We don't want to get into that take too long and 40 minutes. Yeah, and we certainly can't give my son and daughter-in-law bad enough time in 40 minutes.

29:14 What do you want me to talk about?

29:19 I thought your dog's my dog's your dogs. Oh, yeah. Well, I want over the legal limit.

29:26 I thought you didn't need to say that I have four because I'm a softie. I've got the old guy Toby.

29:36 I've had him for a long time. He was a rescue from the neighbors fence stand I guess kennel and they were ignoring him. So one day my husband just said hey, can we have your dog? So that's how we get started and then we just had to go out to the shelter in Genoa and have a look around and found Zana, which means Fang in Italian and she's are Min Pin.

30:02 And then we have Roscoe. We've only had Roscoe for about a year-and-a-half and he's probably two or three years old. Probably more like 3 and he's a miniature dachshund funny. It's so funny. I can't believe it. And then right after we got rice, we got this sob story then some guy had two puppies. He couldn't give away and he was going to end up drowning them in the bag in the Mississippi River. So he's kind-hearted sister-in-law came and took the dogs and she is poorer than a church mouse and she took care of the these two little dogs found a home for the brother and still had Dora. I named her Dora which is short for durable cuz she's got such an adorable little face. She does get dressed. And when you enter your house you have for little dogs from barking and run to greet you as 16ft 16 16 16. Yeah. Yeah.

31:02 House where you come? I have one large dog that comes to greet us and one cat that comes into the run and hide because you know strange people but where you are both in to rescue because my dog is a rescue dog my bad home and the previous dog. I had who died of cancer was a rescue dog. Tigger was a rescue dog. Lisa found her roaming the streets and Tigger was near death. Oh, no, I did have that and so Tigger was a rescue dog and the two cats that I have are all rescues from the border incident in Rochelle last year.

31:45 So those two kittens came home after I work with the animals are at the airport with all those animals that we got. They got to you, huh? I got to me. I wanted to bring two dogs home, but I knew I couldn't I totally fell in love with the big old Mastiff. I mean his head was like a size of a basketball hits one. I wanted you so bad, but I knew that there were other places that would be better for him. But yeah and speaking of dogs. Did you see any of the

32:20 Dogs that came to campus know I heard about him but none of them came down our way but we did have we have a car we had a couple of faculty and School of Art that would bring their dogs in so they brought their dogs in and we were very lenient for a couple of weeks and a lot of just people who worked there for authoring their dogs in well. I saw the dogs out on Camp bus and I know about you but when I went home that night my dog is who I cuddled. Oh, yeah, you know very definitely and she looked at me and gave me a sense of it's okay. I'm here for you type thing. And so when I saw the dogs on campus I so much wanted them to come into our building. So I made some phone calls and set the how come they

33:08 Dogs these therapy dogs are not coming in to see faculty and staff. I mean we need them as much as students to and so they brought some of them up the elevator one day looking for me and it was it was so nice to be able to pet them. Yeah. Well, you know Eric's always telling me when I'm blue to go home and put a couple of dogs on me, right?

33:31 Make a difference, you know, they're not judgemental. They don't care how bad a day we've had. They don't care what we've done right or wrong. They're there and I think

33:42 They work for anybody who had a dog at the time of February 14th. I'm sure that they were Comfort to them dogs. Can't help it.

33:53 But it was pretty cool about the dogs on campus. Yeah, it was but

34:00 We need more dogs. We need we need bring your dog to work day. Oh, yeah and rotate or bring your dog every day. If you could take turns with which one you bring cuz I'm not going to let you bring all four of them into the office at one time. No, but they wouldn't stand for it. Either know somebody's got to make sure that no one's eating something at home.

34:30 So you think we'll ever get past this shooting? Oh, yeah, we'll get past it. I'm glad they didn't tear the building down.

34:38 I'd like to see a memorial put up, you know something dignified, right? You know, but I may be some plants and some benches and some place where people can kind of sit and reflect to me would be, you know surrounded by flowers cuz we know there a comfort, you know, and some sort of placker something in the ground maybe or something with some neat chairs to sit around.

35:04 But we don't know what they're going to do with Cole cuz they keep changing their mind. And right now they can't do anything. But I really thought the governor was a big dumb jerk to

35:13 To just land on us and announced that he was going to give us funds to tear down the building before he knew if he had the phone while he did that just because they gave him great publicity. You know that yeah and then in trouble yeah. Yeah. I seen this took the whole thing away. So the wonderful Governor comes in is going to save NIU. It was such a joke. I just got gray hair.

35:37 He's got great hair. Did you have fun doing this? I got a little sweaty a little sweaty. Yeah. Yeah, but we did manage to go for 40 minutes and I what we have to go back to work now we go back to work. Yes. I'm done. I'm done.

36:02 Tell each other how you first met and your first impressions one another. Oh my God, I remember when we first met go for it. Then we were I forget what restaurant bought I was with Phyllis Phyllis and you were meeting us there and Kylie had just been born. Okay, and you struck me as being a goofy Grandma kind of person, but you had her picture on everything.

36:38 Yeah, you're not as insane as I thought you were.

36:43 But I know I just thought you were easy to hang around with. You know, I like low maintenance.

36:49 Friendship, so, you know and we did we were friends before we ever worked together. Yeah.

36:55 And I can you got to tell me your first impression. I don't remember the meeting evidently as well as you do probably because Kylie had just been born and I was totally centered on Kylie nothing else in the world. I was there and watched her be born and helped weesa in the labor room. So I mean I was totally into it, but you were fun. I was struck immediately by the sense of humor that you have in the fact that you crack me up and like you said well maintenance you're not working for we're just comfortable. Yeah, you know, we've always been comfortable together and you know, we both say it like it is and

37:33 I think that's what good friends do say it. Like it is supposed to be like that. Yeah, so and working with you is an extra bonus because we get to play all day long like work. Yeah. We drive The Faculty crazy.

37:50 Anything else you want to know you are welcome. It was fun.