Lisa Horowitz and David Horowitz

00:00 All right.

00:06 My name is Lisa Horowitz. I'm 50 years old. Today is December 10th 2014. We are at NIH clinical Center in Bethesda, Maryland, and I am your sister and you are my brother.

00:22 And my name is David Horowitz. I am 46 years old is the same day. As you said, and it we are in the NIH, Bethesda. And I am your brother and you are my sister.

00:37 So today we're here to talk about a little bit about the last 15 years, I mean in 2001 and around Labor Day in 2001, you were diagnosed with CLL with lymphoma and that, you know, there was a dramatic time in your life was DriveTime in everybody's life in 2001. So we'll, we'll talk a little bit about the last 13 years in the 40 minute time frame, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Thank you for coming down and interviewing me and preparing in. I'll just start out by saying I love you, and I love you, too.

01:16 So while we're on the subject, so we can paint a little picture for for me about, you know, Labor Day 2001. And what happened was, you know, we grew up in New Jersey and our whole family lives there, including you, but I moved to Boston and I had decided to come down my husband. Phil was going to England and I brought

01:44 My daughter Erica, who at that time? Was 6 months. Old down to New Jersey for Labor Day weekend. And

01:52 I had been waiting to hear about a lymph node biopsy report and so I was at our sister Sherry's house and the surgeon I had been playing phone tag with the surgeon's office. And finally I got a hold of him that day.

02:08 And,

02:10 The surgeon was kind of not my favorite doctor in the car and he had a very arrogant manner, but he said to me on the phone. He stand up, you know, phrase. I'll never forget. He just said Lisa. I'm so surprised you have cancer.

02:27 And,

02:29 I was 37 years old at that time with a 6 month, old baby and I literally dropped to the floor under the weight of those words that you have cancer just literally dropped me to my knees and and Sherry had to pick me up off the floor and my little six month old baby was in the Next Room and all I could think about was.

02:53 I have cancer. I I, I want to see her grow up. I want to raise this child and, you know, I breastfed her for six months. I could imagine her, not knowing me and

03:07 So I didn't know what this meant I have lymphoma. And when I asked the surgeon, what does that mean? He said well, you'll have to ask your primary care doctor. He clearly wanted to get off the phone quickly. So that was a phone call to my primary care. Doctor up in Boston.

03:22 And he said, all I remember is there's no cure for the type of lymphoma you have and you have about 5 to 10 years to live. I mean, I remember when you told us that same weekend and I was like, I was, I was shocked. I was palled. I was, I was working, you know, in in computers at the time and so I immediately went to the internet and I was a little bit, it wasn't as sophisticated. Now as it was back, then he wasn't supposed to get it back then it wasn't out. But I wanted to see what is, what is lymphoma? What are the damn? There's a million different types started learning all about it. I remember, you know, going in and I don't know if it was Google at the time. It was like Altavista or whatever. The search engine wasn't trying to find out as much as we can about it. But you know, I was just like so upset over it. And you know, I don't know what to do. I felt helpless and I felt helpless for you and you know, your daughter, you know, you said, six months old. It was, it was a rough time right now.

04:22 Mommy over, and you came over. And I remember I didn't want to look on the internet cuz I didn't want to read all the horrible things that could be there and you were the computer guy and you even hook me up with your friend. Who was the doctor who gave me some more information, but I went immediately into a death fog from, you know, I just all I could think of was I'm going to die and I'm not going to live to see this child grow up and she was six months of the time, right? Erica was told. Yes, so then, I mean, you know, it happened to be September 2nd, 2001, and sure enough. It must have been a tumultuous time. I mean, I know it was cuz I was there, but then a week later, September 11th happened. Okay. I know, I was flying that day to LA from Newark and it was just a hairy day. Can you explain, you know, just what happened that day, and how your illness affected it? And, you know, I know everybody was freaking out cuz I was on a plane I was on United.

05:22 Flight 83 from Newark to Los Angeles, not in your car. Thank God. It wasn't North to San Francisco. So

05:29 Right home. Well, after I was diagnosed, I went back up to Boston and I went back to work and I told nobody, I mean, I told my family knew my very close friends, but I didn't tell anybody at work. So I was walking around in this deathfog while we were trying to figure out what was the plan for my lymphoma.

05:50 Cuz I didn't feel sick. I just had this diagnosis that I might answer. So I remember September 11th and it was as surreal as the feeling was to be told you have cancer, it was that same surreal, feeling of something was going on New York City and there was playing that just hit the World Trade Center in. I worked at a hospital up in Boston at that time and somebody turned on the TV in the conference room.

06:16 And it was interesting for our family, I think, because

06:21 You know, everybody was so.

06:25 Just out of sorts because of my cancer diagnosis and then the attention turned to you and where is David cuz you worked in New York City and I never forget this Sherry called and said, where's David? Yeah, it is. He is his building near the World Trade Center, and I remember calling Daddy and daddy saying, don't worry about David. He's he's not even in New York City. He's on a plane to California. Don't worry about David and then of course, you know, what happened that day. I was a tumultuous time for me. So we don't have to discuss that now. But so this is going through your mind, you know, right? So I was, I didn't hear it. Felt like people were in our country is being hijacked in and assaulted, by terrorism. And in this odd way, I had this feeling like that was happening to me on the inside. Like I had been hijacked by lymphoma hijacked, by cancer on the inside, and it was as if there was a terrorism inside and outside.

07:24 But the interesting thing was from that day on I could walk around crying and nobody questioned me. So I would walk around at work knowing I had this cancer worried about not being there for the six month, old baby crying and nobody said was wrong because everybody was like that. And so in some odd way, September 11th was like this terrorism on the outside and terrorism on the inside for me.

07:49 So you work, so tell me about your job at the time and you worked up in Boston. And what were you doing?

07:54 Yeah, so I am a clinical psychologist and I was working at a hospital in Boston. And what happens when you after you got diagnosed. How did that change your work? The cancer hospital that I was had my my doctor at was across the street from the Children's Hospital. I worked at and

08:17 At first I was on a watch and wait kind of program where they weren't going to treat the cancer. They were just going to watch because there was no cure, there's nothing they could do, but when the tumor is not big enough, they would try to beat it down with chemotherapy. So I would go across the street and eventually I needed chemotherapy and I get my infusion. And then because of the kind of person I am, I just, I could not sit home and be in this death fog, and just feel like I was going to die. So, I had to keep working and I'm people thought I was crazy there. Like, you're getting your chemo infusion and then you pop back across the street before, there was a time frame before you started getting your chemo. So, did this change anything with your relationship with your daughter? Or your husband, or your family, or your friends? How did you break it to them? How did how did you like you said you were in this fog? And

09:13 Every time we would go to a friend's, I had friends, who had kids the same age. We go to a birthday party and they would like the candles on the cake and I would, in my head say, am I going to be at Erica's? S birthday? Am I going to be at her 5th, birthday? And I going to be at her 10th birthday, and that would always go through my mind. So, it was like this uninvited guests. That was always with me this cancer. Just always in the room, even though I wasn't feeling sick. It was just this idea.

09:44 So then you found out you had a good treatment and you know what the doctor said to tell me about the first treatment you had and you know, how you were feeling during the time and do it for someone to this lymphoma specialist up in Boston, who didn't turn out to be my doctor because I had a terrible bedside Manner. And actually he said some really awful things to me. But he said this one thing that is stuck in my mind that I never forget and I would ask him, I can I go to work. Can I still run? Can I do you know my normal life? And he said, do not let this disease invalid. You more than it already has nine? Even no, invalid was a verb that you can use that way, but you have any more time and and that was like, a key thing. Like I have this precious time. And so I wanted just to do everything. I wanted to just absorb everything.

10:44 I want to be a mother in the full of sense. I wanted to let you know, see people and be with people, I love being with and then I found a wonderful doctor in. Boston, start you found this doctor wants and he started treating you, the treatment worked in the beginning. I put me into remission guard up and I was when I got the call, she went to the doctor, you know, every few months. You go to the doctor and I'd be like, oh my God, I wonder what the results are you and then you found out you were in remission. It was like, oh, happy day. I like, celebrated, big, big fattening, lunch and everything. So we remember when that happened, and then, you know, how long is it going to last? So I think it ended up last thing. I don't remember. I think it was like 18 months or 12 days like that. So then you, he would continuously go back to the doctor every few months, and get your scans. And, you know, eventually you got to scan. That said, I was growing back. So how did you feel it?

11:44 And what was going on in your life? I mean, I think, you know, there was a time when you knew you were, you know, it's hard because it's such a long period between when it happened that you moved from Boston to Washington, so talk about that.

12:01 So I had developed this really good relationship with my boss and doctor and then my husband. Phil got a job at NIH in Bethesda, and he wanted to move and I don't want to move. I mean I had my friends were all up there. My family was up there, but my cancer doctor was up there and I didn't want to leave before then. Just stopping for a second. There wasn't any like you said, you had five to ten years. There wasn't any cure, the time like stem cell transplants weren't like they are today, right? At that time. And this is how much the science has caught up, but that time I didn't even know that that was an option for me. And in fact, nobody mentioned that they were they just assured me. There was, there was not true.

12:51 So, I remember is it, seems many they called the mini bone marrow transplants, but they were non Milo, ablative transplants, where they were starting to do them on people, with lymphoma. Like, I had. And I remember once Phil, and I went to the doctor and my doctor said, I want you to see the transplant doctor up here in Boston. And he said, you know, you have about a 40% chance of a cure and I remember walking out of there feeling awful, like, just selling and and feel the committee said, what do you put the matter on like 40%? You just went from 0 to 40% chance, that's good.

13:32 Are you going to look at it the right way? But we, we were moving back to boss. We are moving down here to Bethesda. So I was leaving my boss and doctor and he remember when he told me, he said there's this wonderful doctor at NIH name. Dr. Wyndham Wilson.

13:49 And he felt very strongly about him that he was going to be a good doctor from any. I had to speak attachment to my doctor in Boston for it. So I was also looking forward to meeting. Dr. Wilson and was it Progressive at the time? Or were you in? Remission is also at that time, when we made the decision to move, I was in remission and three weeks before the move. I went for my routine CAT scan. And I remember I was just talking about the move with Phil in the waiting, in the exam room. So it was what year was a 2007, 2006, 2006. And I know that there was another were they were

14:32 You know, advances being made because I know that I had another friend who was diagnosed with a with leukemia at a few years earlier. And then we started going to this gift of Life Gala every year. So we donated some money and we went to this Gala every year and they would be stem cell transplants make the survivors. And the survivors would come and meet their donors and have a talk with each other and I was just you know, I think that the science started to catch up a little bit. So when did you learn that? That was you know, when did you learn about that? And said the transplant was probably a couple years about a year or two before I moved when I knew a transplant was on the possibility.

15:19 So,

15:21 I was having this, my doctor came in looking very pale and said, you're its back, and it was three. I just sold my house in Boston. We are moving down to Bethesda. Great timing. Yeah. So coming to NIH, was first Wyatt, I, when my husband got a job at at the National Institute of Mental Health. I also got a job at the National Institute of Mental Health on the Hydra service. So I was going to see the medical patients. But my first introduction to NIH was coming here as a patient. And I met dr. Wilson and he, I could tell he was very smart, and he knew everything there was to know about lymphoma, and I put my confidence immediately in him.

16:08 And then the funny thing was a week later after I came here as a patient. I had to start my job at NIH.

16:15 So, I felt like a

16:19 Double agent. Like I was an undercover cancer patient working in the clinical Center as a psychologist. Who's going to see cancer patients and evaluate them for mental health concerns? So you you're in the middle of a, your you find out, you're out of remission. You're moving your entire family from Boston to Washington to a new job. A new house, new. You don't have any fat friends. I mean, did you know anybody down here down here? And I mean, that just must have been such a like. How did you even handle that? I feel. I was held together by threads and you and my family and my friends.

17:02 And I just kind of soldier Don. Like there was no other choice. I just had to go through and

17:09 I remember might tell me about your first day. I was just going to say tell me about your first day and a wonderful boss status of the Hughes Clinical Director, and he said be so I'm going to take you on my first consult with me. We did consult. We saw the medical patient. It's a cancer patient. It's a lymphoma patient, and we're going to, he didn't know that. You had didn't know I had lymphoma and he said we're going to meet dr. Wilson and we're going to see his break into a consult. I want to talk to Wilson's patient and I must have just gone white, you know, and I remember that I like, oh my God, I'm going to meet dr. Wilson, and you've already met cuz I already met as a patient. And I'm going to meet him now as a, as a psychologist, as a provider.

17:59 And you know, what was he going to? Is he going to give my story away? What was he going to do? And I remember just shook my hand and he said nice to meet you and he didn't give anything away played it real. All right, but I had to see one of his lymphoma patients and who is needing a transplant. So,

18:17 It was it was kind of a it was a difficult time. So was there different trials? Going on down there? You know, the great thing about a small. Did you know, the nickname for NIH is House of Hope. And that's what it is. It's full of these wonderful clinical trials that people can participate in. And not only can you help yourself, but you can help other people in the future who are going to

18:48 Need the science to catch up like I did. So, dr. Wilson.

18:53 Has a phase 1 clinical trial, which means it had never been tested on humans before. And I was going to take this.

19:02 It was an oral drug. And if you remember it would it it was like all that yucky fish oil because it tasted awful is the worst thing I've ever tasted. So,

19:14 I but that was later. That was later after I got here, but the funny part was to me was I the nurse I came to know the nurses in the docks here. And you know, when any time anyone sees a patient they wear a white lab coat and one day I was this was months and months after I've been working here and his doctor Wilson was still on the watch and wait, he wasn't treating me yet. But then one day, I had to get treated cuz my tumors were growing and I went up to the 12th floor, which is the oncology floor here at the clinical Center and

19:55 All the nurses from the National Cancer Institute where up there and I had just seen a patient with my white coat on.

20:02 And then I showed back up at 3, with out my white coat. And I said to them, I they said, oh no, dr. Horowitz and I see you and I said, I am your 3:00 patient and that was really hard. And the code was when I wore my white coat, I was working and when I wasn't wearing my white coat, I wasn't working a double, you're like a double agent. I was a double agent. Double agent patient has an undercover DEA agent cancer patient. Yes, but it's so, you know actually having to get the transplant whether you were going to eat. I know there was a decision to be made. Are you going to go into the trial that NIH or were you going to go back to your doctor in? And then Boston, what you were very comfortable with because you had known him very well and he's got brought you through the end of the last few years of treatment. So I can look, let's talk a little bit about how that decision right?

21:02 Wilson and it worked for a little bit, but unfortunately, I didn't work and dr. Wilson went, it was when I became in pain from a tumor pressing on the spinal nerve when dr. Wilson and I'll never forget this because I was down here in the I'm getting an MRI and dr. Wilson. I actually saw him running down there to look at my results and he was going to personally just look at them right away. And and he knew you and he told me, he was always very Frank with me. And he said, he said, it's time for you to have the transplant and talk to the transplant team.

21:45 So I was very torn. Should I go back to Boston and get my transplant or should I stay here tonight, H and get my transplant and be in a clinical trial?

21:53 And I remember being very torn about that decision, and I was so grateful to you and Daddy, who took the train down from New York, from New Jersey to come and have dinner with me at the Old Ebbitt Grill, and talked about, with the first, March Madness. I remember eating dinner at the grill. I think some of the players were in town for some of the, some of the teams were there heating to. I remember the time and having that conversation with you, trying to weigh the pros, and the cons of doing it here versus there. And now, I didn't have any support system here. I didn't know, I didn't have my friends. I didn't have my family. I, I barely had a few friends, right? So, we decided on a 9th because

22:40 I not only had the opportunity to participate in a clinical trial and Not only was it going to help me and this was just a I put my face in the transplant team because they turned out to be incredible in and they all save my life. That was a good decision. But you know, not only could I participate in something that was going to help me, but I could also participate in something that could maybe help a patient in the future, who is going to need a transplant and that really meant something to me. So I have the time you needed to get a donor. I mean, you want to have a transplant, but just because you want to transplant them, you can have a transplant. I know that the siblings are probably the most likely to be a match. And I know that, you know, my sisters and I, we went through getting tested and all I wanted. I mean, all I wanted was being match. That's all I could think about was, I was already in the gift of Life registry, but we got separately tested. We went to a doctor or a local doctor. I remember he took several vials and and and then

23:40 Weeks later, we found out. If we have a few days later. We found out that we were not matched and I was I was. I was upset cuz I didn't know you don't like golf. That's your best chance for the chances. We have to tell me when you found out that we were matches what went through your mind. But then also tell me about The Gift of Life in the National bone marrow foundation and how that helped.

24:01 So, it turns out that only 30% of people who need a transplant, have a sibling, as a as their don't, I siblings make the best match because you would have the exact genetic makeup from Mommy and Daddy. And so when you and Sherry went to get tested, I I so first of all, I just wanted one of you much but I really wanted to be

24:22 Has no offense against Jerry, but I really wanted it to be you. And, you know, I know we looked a little like, so I I kind of thought it's going to be him and I look like your people to come up to me and said, are you Lisa's brother and sister? And I must make no doubt about that. I was like upset, anyway, go on telling my doctor told me that you neither of you were. Imagine that it was pretty devastating that all along getting cancer. Diagnosis. The first punch to the gut is when you hear the words, you have cancer.

25:03 And then second punch who got was, when I fell out of remission and I guess the third punch to the gut was your siblings are no match for you. And my doctor said to me, I said, what a my chances of finding a match in the register, the bone marrow registry. And he said, well, what's your ethnicity? Which I don't even know was related and it turned out and being Eastern European Jewish. He said 20 years ago. I would have told you you have no chance but because of this one organization Gift of Life bone marrow Foundation, you have greater than 70% chance of finding match that I had been going to for the, the other Gala, for the last five years have been supporting them. So so when I return to my husband, Phil who's Asian-American and he said, if it were you

25:51 You have very poor chance. Find a match and he told me if you're African-American if your Latino if you're Asian or mixed-race you a very poor chance, find a match and that haunted me throughout my transplant and I was lucky cuz I had a man tell me about that, dude. Got a match. So I remember I remember when you told us, you got to match your site right now. You got to match. It was like, you won the lottery, right? They called and told me how to match, and there's wonderful people in the transplant recruitment center where they try to find your match for you. And she said, Lisa, you have match and we were ecstatic and then 2 weeks later. She called and she said Lisa, your match declined. So yeah in the bone marrow registry is having a match that says no because you know, there's someone in the world who could save your life and they declined. I wanted to go over his house and show me a picture of my daughter and say please I need to live but you know, you don't have any information and

26:51 Can't force anybody to do it and but I was lucky and looking back in hindsight. It might not have been the worst thing right now is a gift so you can't look at it as a bad thing because now a time it was devastating and terrible. But now here we are because my match that I eventually got was this was a 33. All you find out is very anonymised information. So it was a 33 year old man from Ohio is what I was told you to call Maddie Wright, why wouldn't want to call the Maddie? Because that's good for my awesome thirty-three-year-old donor man. So I called and I had to give my name cuz he didn't have. He was named with me while he was saving my life. So you got the right one. You got the second match. I remember, it happened to be, it was in May and we were at this gift of Life, Gala and your friend Evie, who was a bone marrow recipient was speaking that night and we were so ecstatic that you got a match that there was a good. Now, obviously the second

27:51 Do you find out if a person is willing to do it you so much? That much happier because you know the first one you had and then decline than you like devastated. So it was like a wind vane was and I'm like my sister is going to be up there on that stage Sunday. Yeah. And Ever You Ever Had A transplant. A few years before me and she sailed through it. I wanted that kind of transplant. So you got the, you know, you're getting a transplant in all in August or September and tell me about the time leading up to that. So, you know, what's going through your mind, your family, your friends, and support system here. So, so I just 2008. So I've been here two years and I had this total stranger stepping up to save my life, which I still, there's not one day that goes by that. I don't think this total stranger stepped up and saved my life. I mean, how do you even thank someone for a gift like that? You know it? So I've always felt compelled to pay it forward.

28:52 But leading up to the transplant. I know at that time, he was going to save my life. I was just hoping and I had this. First of all, I had the best family in the world. I had you and Sherry, and mommy, and daddy, and and Arden Tony. And, and I had and Rachel and I had

29:13 You know, these friends that I had down here that I was starting to get to know, through Erica's school. I had a great neighbor. I had Beth. She was my neighbor, but these are Erica's friends, mothers, organized, a way that they can bring over dinner so that we didn't have to cook. And I remember, Sarah Jane came over.

29:38 With an arctic char, barely knew her, I barely knew her. Now. She's my one of my dearest friends and came over with this Arctic char. And you know, she didn't know me, but she said, no, I want you to have this dinner and she baked. They bought it because I think my friend, of course, my oldest friends, Debbie, and Ellie, they would come to visit and my friend, Dina, and people would come. And accompany me to bone marrow biopsies, and course, Mommy. And aunt came to take care of Erica.

30:17 And I was just surrounded by love and it community of love. So now it's time for the transplant. September walk me through the day of the transplant and and how you're dealing with, you know everything, right? So tell me about the day.

30:36 Well, the doctor said will be very anti-climactic. They didn't know when exactly. Are we going to do the transplant. So they harvested Maddie's cells. This donor cells and they told me they would freeze him and I and then when they needed them they would take them out. And use my said you can freeze stem cells. That can be okay. He's like my doctor said yes, like chicken. You just take it out of the freezer, you know before you need it and use it and not. Okay. So he said he's going to bring the stem cells in a bag and it's going to probably smell like garlic and it's going to be very anti-climactic for the team but a very for a wonderful day for me. So they call it a zero and they brought this little bag that look like guava juice hats and for some reason struck me like that. It was purple and Infused and

31:27 I remember thinking I should play some Barry, White music and let me cuz you want these saily. Do they wipe out all your stem cells? You want these cells to go in and belittle pioneers and populate and you know, kind of just make a new immune system. This new immune system was going to recognize the cancer as an enemy and attack it had the transplant. I remember you getting sick a few times while you're in the hospital and how long were you in the hospital for exactly? Have never ever coming down to visit? I was in for 3 weeks and the hardest part of that was not being able to be with her. You know, she was at the time and second grade. She was 7 years old and we would Skype. And I remember I was, I was feeling awful, but I would have these phone calls with her.

32:15 I was just in the nurse would always comment. I would just pull together for the phone call and I feel like hi, honey. And I would give her the good night talking and then I'd hang up the phone. I Collapse on my phone, but the hardest part was being separated from her but then it was a year of no isolation and it wearing a mask. And again this this phrase don't let this disease invalid, you came into mine. And so, you know, instead of being this busy, working mom. Now if I could take a walk, that was a good day. Sometimes if I could make it up the stairs, that was a good day. You kind of have to adjust your expectations. So the next few months September October November, I know it's a big time in the country's life cuz you know, President Obama got elected little bit of it was very special for me because, you know, his slogan was yes, we can. And I felt like that was my slogan. We can do this, I can get through this transplant.

33:15 And so when he was elected and this miracle felt like it happened in the country and I I just was energized and it was an inspiration to me, like, yes, we can became I'm not. Okay, and I know you couldn't go out like you couldn't leave your house. Right? I mean, you had to stay since I had a dorel was, you know, buy stock in Purell the internet and I bought Obama shirts for everybody feel took Erica down to the inauguration twice. I took pictures of the TV cuz I could go.

34:00 You couldn't, you couldn't join them obviously, but over the next few months, you started to be able to do things. So tell me about how you activate yourself. And what was it 6 months afterwards, a year afterwards.

34:12 Yeah, I was missing. Think I was missing. Think I'm one of the things I was being as funny when when Obama Started he

34:21 So, he sent his kids to the same school that Erica goes to. And I was always the coach of the basketball team, the recreation, little kid basketball team, and his daughter was on the basketball team. And so, I was missing a lot of things during my transplant, but I was also,

34:39 Also feel would come home filled with taking over the coaching for me and he was coaching with President Obama. You know, the next year I would, I would join back in and then I was coaching with President Obama, but that's another story for another day. So you're so that's, that's, that's very cool. You went into your one-year anniversary. So 9909. I remember you got me. So I felt like this new lease on life. I had this pay it forward feeling. We start up the swap, a cheek Save a Life organization. So we could increase racial and ethnic diversity in the bone marrow registry, but I remember my friend gave me this car. That's it. It was a quote from Abraham Lincoln, it said,

35:33 It's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years and I

35:40 I am just so appreciative. I mean, I have to tell you, you know, I have my transfer in here. So every day I come to work and I never forget that. I

35:50 And lucky to be able to walk out of here everyday healthy person, you know, the NIH clinical team, that my medical team saved my life. And I'm am so grateful to my family, my friends, my medical team. I'm truly blessed by Anonymous in but we've been able to think of his name is Joshua. His name is not Maddie, and because this is the power of one because of what he did. He just did this altruistic gesture. He saved my life and now I can go on to help other people and now you're swapping cheek. Save a Life is actually giving me multiple transplants and we have facilitated seven transplant. So because this one person stepped up and changed my life, I could go on to help seven other people and help them.

36:50 Yes, we broke the. What do you think your biggest takeaway is? I mean, you know what? I mean? What a, what a 13-0 90 from a brother standpoint. It was a roller coaster. I mean, it could only been a roller coaster for you as well. But I mean, ups and downs and sharing a hairpin turns your real one night Mom. He's like, oh, she's vomiting at the hospital. The next night. I mean, just so many highs and lows tell me about your biggest takeaway and your outlook for the future and you know, right. But really, you know, even though you might be cancer patient. It might not be the life. You recognize is still your life do something every day. And just know everyone has only the promise of now. We're all here for now. So I am forever. Grateful forever, appreciative.

37:44 To my donor, my family, my friends and I H medical team science. I'm truly blessed. And how does it affect your day today with your daughter? Like when you see in a guy, when you get to go to a, when you get to go to her permits for when you got to guess who her? I mean think about it wasn't even an option. 12 years ago. I was told I had five years to live and I got to attend Erica's 13th, birthday her bot Mitzvah in April. So I'm glad that I listened to that doctor and didn't let this disease. Invalid me, I didn't let it robbed me. Like, you know, there's you're right. There's that Abraham Lincoln saying it's not the years in your life. That count is so life in your years, and that's really true. And so

38:41 I think being grateful. I think I will be forever grateful and wanting to

38:50 Share that and help anybody else who's going through a transplant as well. And now you come to work every day and you deal with these people that are getting transplants. Do you like say I went through it? Or I never say, I had it my own transplant and but I think when I listen to them and when I

39:08 When I'm listening and when I'm nodding and hearing their story because their story is different than my story. I think I convey a knowing that I could never do in words by telling them I had to transplant but I think by listening and when I say, yeah, it sounds really hard to go through what you're going through and my heart. I know I know what that's like and I think I'm able to convey that in the fact. I'm grateful that I can work here at NIH because I feel like I could give back like that every day. Like, you know, it's just the cat just a guess. It's not necessarily exactly. If somebody says you have 5 years, it doesn't mean that there's no light at the end of the tunnel. You never know. You can't predict the future. So that every day, the president is very important to us, and I'm glad you're here with me and I'm here to, I love it and I love you.

40:05 All right. Good. Thanks.