Thawn Harris and Eleanor Dove Harris

00:01 My name is Thorn. Charente Harris. I'm 38 years old today is November 14th, 2016 and IM at Comic-Con Museum in Exeter, Rhode Island. I am with my partner today my wife Eleanor of almost 20 years.

00:23 My name is Eleanor Dove Harris. I am 38 years old and I am 37 years old.

00:33 Today's date is November 14th 2016 and we are here at tomaquag Indian Memorial Museum and art Acadia Village in Exeter, Rhode Island. And my partner today is my husband of almost last 20 years ago on Harris razoo trying to one-up me with the Arcadia Village. Yes, is that because you grew up here. You are the show inside a knowledge and Park.

01:02 So Thorn we have been married almost 20 years this July and before that we have known each other.

01:13 Almost our entire lives

01:16 What is your very earliest memory of me?

01:20 I think my earliest memory of you is when I was a little boy and your mother brought you to my house. And of course I was way too cool to talk to you then but I remember you showing up and I've been like it is this girl here and I wanted to show off. I remember jumping outside of the sliding glass window of the house and in dunking a basketball into this hoop and I am pretty sure also I had my little Honda 50 motorcycle bad. And so then I got on that thing and went up and down the hill a few times for maximum attention-grabbing.

02:04 Yo, yes, I remember that day. I didn't really remember it. Maybe I'm remembering a memory that your mother tried to hug me and I was too cool for anybody to be hugging up on me.

02:16 Do you remember that? I do remember that day? I have a lot of memories of you when we were little kids and they all involved you being mean to me in some way or another whether you were just blowing me off for telling me I wasn't allowed to climb in the tree because it was boys only or you'd have your brother punched me in my stomach at softball game has God you haven't responded like a horrible person. And the last time I remember you really being mean to me was fifth grade when we went to Chariho middle school and it was our first time being in school together and I was so excited to see you in the hall. And of course, it's all Narragansett kids grow up. We call everyone our cousin because we are all related somehow and I saw you and I said to the kid next to me in line. That's my cousin. That's my cousin and you looked at me and you said you ain't my cousin and I was just Crush.

03:16 Cuz I was so happy to see you and you were not happy to see me.

03:23 Yeah, I grew up. I already guess I was pretty Larry of who I claimed as my relatives. There were a lot of them and you didn't always want to claim all of them. So, I'm sorry. Maybe I had some for Satan to us being together and that's why you weren't my cousin. I don't want you to be.

03:44 So what do you think was your favorite memory of me?

03:50 Do you have any that stand out?

03:53 Oh my goodness. I mean there are so many memories of going to visit on King's Factory Road and going to your grandparents house.

04:09 And always knowing when we go to visit who I called Aunt Grace and Uncle Russell that there'd be the chance that I would see you and sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't and as I said you were always mean if I did see you for those who love the good memories from being a kid is going there and then the family reunions in the wedding that one family reunions at my grandmother's house. That was a big one. That is a I have fond memories of that. But I think my favorite memory in Gilroy is when we were little

04:48 It's funny because I we went to your sister's wedding and I had a crush on your cousin Stephanie and spend the night dancing with her and you spent the night dancing with my first cousin, Seneca.

05:08 And I remember him talking about you all the time that he was going to marry Eleanor. I was nine years old at that wedding. I was probably 10. I don't know if you're really mad and no because you said you was 38 you could have been a trail and you only 37

05:32 So then we end up going to HighSchool together.

05:40 And

05:42 I remember why I guess we need to go back to 7338 at what point did you decide that we were going to be friends? So we were friends I think in sixth grade. We were I don't think we were an amazing 5th grade, but I think we really started to be more friendly or or be friends in fifth grade. And I think that kind of magnify the 6th grade wasn't it was

06:12 Sixth grade that Max slammed your fingers in the locker and I and I stood up for you remember that but when you first time you really caught my attention, I have a 7th grade. I remember it vividly. I was with Chad Champlin who is my best friend of the time and we were walking by the lunch room, and he looked in there and he saw you and he was like, oh look at Allen or she can get it. He said something vulgar that

06:48 Charger, I don't know. He said something about how you could get it or something like that and how good you looked and I looked in there and your hair was out. It was long and slow and it just look beautiful. And that was the first time I noticed you and thought wow, she really looks beautiful, but it looks good. And I knew that there was a possibility there.

07:15 I remember that vividly. So that was the first time I looked at you different. You wasn't just my my

07:22 Cousin well, the whole reason I wore my hair out that day was because you said to me that I should wear my hair out because I always wore my hair up in a ponytail with the first time in my whole childhood that I wore my hair out. It was a big production. I like slept in hair rollers. And did you really was very uncomfortable and the next morning I came to school my hair out and it's so funny because I had pin straight hair. I didn't need to sleep in hair rollers anything with my hair look fat shred day would say so I didn't need the hair rollers, but it was a really uncomfortable night sleep to be ready for that day to show off my hair. I had no idea. This is the first time I've ever heard that

08:11 So, you know, I think when I think of our time together at Chariho Middle School, I think a big part of why we became so connected and so close and such good friends cuz we really became very close friends and 7th and 8th grade almost like best friends might have other best friends also, but like we talked on the phone a lot and we hung out at school and I really felt that everything to do with that. We are both Narragansett, you know, we were at the school that was predominantly white students hardly any diversity at all, but a little bit of diversity that did exist. Where are Narragansett students and I think we were drawn together to that commonality. I think I agree that most of us smother small amount of minorities that way they are clumped together. However, I think you're selling yourself. You was pretty cool to hang out with this this quite a few.

09:11 Guess I really didn't want to hang out with say what's up to him, but it wouldn't go much further than that. You're pretty cool lady.

09:23 So we are but we were friends and you're right. I'm sorry. I kind of cut you off for your you're right, but do that kind of was a bad thing too. Cuz I used to tell you would like all my dating wasn't all these other things and now you have all that information that you can use against me still 20 years. Later.

09:48 So

09:51 Sand by high school we are dating

09:55 We were that we break up to make up all the time. That was very short-lived. So let's my memories of the first time we dated I remember seeing you at a flea market. I was with stormy and Eric they were married at the time and we're getting ready to go to schemitzun pow. Wow. I remember you saying that you would be there and I remember like thinking again. Maybe there's a little bit more that something there then friendship and we go to schemitzun Pow Wow, and I remember getting there and there was some Ashby girls and they were like digging my vibe and I remember talking to them and then you showed up and I forgot all about them and

10:48 We hung out and we started dating and I remember that you made me shave my face cuz I was God. How about where we then was I 13 14 years old then I was just starting to get some little scruff on my face barely even noticeable and I always told myself I wasn't going to shave until I absolutely had to cuz I heard it made it worse.

11:19 And you made me shave and I shave for you. I was so excited to be dating you and then the next morning I was getting breakfast in the slow private room and I like out and I saw you and I was so excited and then I saw today come and give you a hug and then give you a kiss.

11:43 And it was the most heartbreaking thing. I think I ever experienced in my life and I tried to hold it together, but then I just went to my room and I remember crying and crying and crying and of course I was there with his sister and so she get ended up coming to the room and I'm sobbing why was crying and your brother. I didn't say that but I was very heartbroken even though our relationship is so minuscule. It really didn't amount to anything at the time, but I think that

12:22 Very kind of was the first

12:26 And The Saga of us missing the mark on each other.

12:31 So I remember we came back to school and when we got back to school. I found out that you had even though you have a boyfriend at the time and I remember telling him. Oh, yeah. Well, she was dating me and then she dated this other person there and he didn't believe me cuz you tell them it wasn't you guys like dating or did not that you're really doing anything was a little high school dating that really didn't amount to anything, but I was so upset that he believed you. I don't want you to be with anyone else.

13:13 So some other times in those sagas that bring back on and off. I remember going to homecoming and you went with J to home, and I went with my date and I was so I just not cool, but I thought I was really cool this little native boy who got his grandfather to make a mai tai out of a squirrel's tail. You remember the script out that I made a rap about it. Why don't you go back to school go back to school? I love that and my poor date showed up in our date has a squirrel tail tired. He was so horrified it embarrassed of this play young white girl.

14:11 My God, but I remember being there and before the night was over. I saw you in tears and you and Jay had gotten in a fight and I will he was my ride home and I remember him riding home with me and him saying I don't know going on about something with you and I was just feeding the fuel to the fire cuz I bought him out of the picture itself. And I was so elated even though you was heartbroke. I'm sorry you his heart broke now, but I was really elated that that was kind to ending cuz I still why did that door to be on thin?

14:53 That was a really awful night for me at high school. I'll try the worst night in my high school career that here. I was at the Home School homecoming dance and I'm like stood up by my date. He just left me on the dance floor and then you look so good you had on that white outfit that outfit. I got a lot of compliments at night on that outfit and like everybody even seniors are coming up like consoling this freshman who was sobbing on the Dance Floor across I was probably more melodramatic when I needed to be but knowing you you're probably will, you know for me, my mother had always told me that I needed to marry a Narragansett. It was something I've been told since I was a little girl.

15:38 And she talked about how important it was for us to continue as a people and you know today is only three thousand of us in this whole world is my 3000 Narragansett and if we want to continue to be here as a people, it's critical that we marry each other and so at a very young age by Middle School by 7 3/8 grade. I already kind of Taken account of who the Narragansett boys were that were my age like who my options were and I definitely had it in my mind that my two real outdoor 3-1 don't live around here though, but there's a that was cool now.

16:17 But the two real options were you and your cousin Jay who were close to my age? You were in the same grade as me. Jay was I think the year ahead of us a question and moves over to Mashantucket Pequot when the casino open so he was a little further away and you stayed there and I

16:40 Do you think that added to the Allure of him the fact that he wasn't you didn't see him everyday? Oh, I mean without question him not seeing him everyday and he's just it's still to this day. He's a mysterious person in that when he's very quiet and when your conversations with him your kind of left light, so I think that definitely added to it and

17:06 And he wasn't very nice to me now that he was mean to me but it wasn't like solicitous. He wasn't doing nice kind things for me. And I mean you really sealed the deal in our relationship early because you fed me often. We're at a powwow you made sure I had Steamers you made sure I had an Indian taco, you know, you made sure I had food in front of me you made sure I had music. I mean, I'd mixtapes that you made me in middle school and my one of my very first CDs that I ever owned you gave me and it was our Kelly's 12 play. I Remember standing in the science Hall of Jehovah has school and you walked up and gave me that CD at that point. I finally owned one or two CDs.

17:51 And you were just always really kind and thoughtful and we were already best friends at that point. So I think it was inevitable that we were going to come back around to be together. So there was one year that I didn't talk to you all that whole year.

18:09 So my boss of the year that you end up getting someone pregnant. So my mother had told me if you really really love her. I remember this advice ignore her totally ignore her and she'll come around Chelsea.

18:28 And so I did I that whole year. I had no idea you and went talk to at all. How did how did that feel from your perspective? That was awful. I was the worst.

18:39 I can remember seeing you. I saw you in August meeting pow. Wow, I was so excited to see you. I ran up to the truck that you were in and and I was also coming into my own bat year. Like I had all the guys trying to pick me up. Everybody was like trying to date me or checking me out and I went running up to you. So excited to see you and you just for Stone Cold you didn't acknowledge me at all. I was like happy belated birthday and thinking you say the same to me Sorbo summer babies and you said nothing and that was the star of that horrific summer that you not somewhere that horrific year that you just ignored me.

19:20 And we were in classes together and you ignored me in the classes and you ignored me in the hall.

19:27 But in the end

19:30 Well, I must I want to tell you that it hurt me too. I I was able to hold it together and be stone cold, but inside every time it was hurting me as well.

19:43 Or your mother's advice worked your mother's give him a lot of good advice over the years because your mother gave me advice 7 years into being married and a lot of people say getting through those first seven years are really hard. We had a really rough patch and your mother took me aside and said,

20:03 But she received this advice for my grandmother who is now 98 years old and she said Eleanor all men are assholes. So you might as well Love the One You're With and that was such an epiphany. It was like this. Ah, ha moments like I have this man and he's making these mistakes but he's a really good man. And so many ways and we love each other and we're best friends. And you know, this marriage is worth worth fighting for I Was Here we are now almost 20 years later. I also am so glad that it all worked out. Did you think that we would end up with a family of 9 with seven children? Well, you know early on I wanted to have a lot of children. I actually think it was around I would like to have six children like my parents and you ride to have one child that we ended up with 6 and 1 I think we did our part and populating the Narragansett tribe. We've added to that three.

21:03 Thousand absolutely, but isn't it funny how as time went on a date with Like Glue? No, I think this is enough children and you're like no. I want more.

21:15 I think it was absolutely Destiny do they talk about people have soulmates? I think there is no question that we were soulmates because there are so many things that had to a line for us to be together and I think specifically of your great-uncle Tarzan Brown who was the first two-time Boston Marathon winner who Heartbreak Hill is named after in the Boston Marathon goes on to the Olympics. I mean, he's the hero of a Narragansett tribe being out with his wife Ethel and my grandparents Ferris and Eleanor Dove about on a drive down. I think they were on Shamrock enough Road in Charlestown.

21:56 And they get a flat tire and my grandfather goes under this car to fix the tire and I think another car comes along it and hits the car or something happens with a car falls down and that axle goes into my grandfather's head back when car is weighed so much more than what they weigh today. And this is back in 1948 and your uncle Tarzan with a real Miracle is able to lift this car up off of my grandfather and Ethel's able to pull my grandfather out from under the car and The Story Goes that he gets to the hospital and my grandmother has to really fight to get the hospital to save him but nine months later. My mother donned of is born. So in many ways, I think she was kind of the celebration of him coming back healthy home from that hospital and if it wasn't for your great-uncle cards and brown saving my grandfather my

22:56 Mother probably went to been here and therefore I would not have been here.

23:00 I think the other thing I think about when I think about us being soulmates and meant to be together is certainly probably one of the biggest tragedies of your life. And that's the the death of your brother because I feel like because your brother was killed when he was only 15. I feel like that then sets the stage for you going to pre one and I really feel like you going to pre 1 and ending up in the same grade as me US arriving at Chariho middle school together as 5th graders and having eight years going through classes and school together the other talk about that proximity is huge and how relationships come to be and you and I had all that time together to really become best friends and that be the foundation of this love story that we have.

23:47 I know I wonder if if you've ever kind of made those connections, but I really do all that I went to pre one. I love how you drive that in there pretty much. No. Absolutely. I think that definitely is being in the same grade. We were able to really form a strong friendship and bond when people say like we were friends before lovers, right? We were definitely friends before we started dating and even though we had the rocky little tough time to this day. You're my best friend. A lot of my friends other friends and a lot of our family and people I see in the community that married and they go off and do stuff with their friends and then that's just their wife and they do some stuff with their wife, but they're not truly best friend.

24:47 Whereas I feel we are best friends, I would there are not any kind of activities that I want to do without you being part of them. I want to share everything with you. So definitely I think our friendship had that chance to blossom and grow I agree with you.

25:10 So we definitely both had very different childhoods and very different upbringings. Even though we're both Narragansett and you know, I just mentioned the tragic loss of your brother bam and I'm wondering how how that part of your life really helped to shape the man that you've become the man whose, you know, this wonderful father to our seven children and this fabulous husband and best friend that I have. How did losing your brother really shape who you are today, so

25:47 As you know, my father was a carpenter and Jesse still is so does it a little bit and he would travel around when I was younger to malls and he would work on malz all over the country a lot in Florida and I was young and so they because I was the youngest they often took me with them and left all the kids home. And I remember coming towards home. I remember stopping at a payphone one of my earliest memories. I must say and my mother being on a payphone and then getting back in the car and she was crying and my father was crying and there was a lot I could feel the tenseness in the air and I remember arriving at our house and

26:41 Walking in the house and our house was filled with so many people are just more people in the house than I can remember and I remember looking for my brother walking among other people looking for my brother and he wasn't there and then my next memory that I have is actually going to the funeral which they didn't really bring me to the funeral like I remember being at home and all kinds of people walking up through the trail to the the cemetery find your house behind the house and I remember going in just running up with people cuz I was allowed to run around wild back then but how it really shape me was a house or got tough at my parents already struggled with alcoholism. And from that point on I think

27:39 It was really really bad, especially for my mother being up all night just screaming and crying and in the middle of the night and that kind of when that wind down some still sometimes in the middle of the night. I remember her getting me out of bed taking me outside and it's just sitting like on the front steps and her like telling me do you fail your brother out here and things like that, which I always felt it is my perspective, but I always felt that sort of like a crutch for her. I don't know if she did that kind of stuff with my siblings. I don't remember seeing it. But I know she did a lot of that kind of stuff with me.

28:27 And I was happy to be that but it also was kind of a wait in the toll on me and I decided very early on seeing like what she was going through and in the alcohol and it led to like a lot of partying at our house and just a lot of abuse of it and a lot of Destruction when her and my father were fighting and I knew like I could never ever drink that was something that I was never ever going to do because I didn't want that for me. So because my brother died I ended up with my two younger brothers. I think I was meant to be the baby but those two came along after cuz my mother felt and away she was trying to bring my brother back see if it says that she says that she was trying to

29:18 Kind of recreate him. So I knew as well that I needed to be sober for my two younger brothers because there was no way that I wanted either of them to drink as well. I remember making a pact with my sister Haley is a little bit older that she was never going to drink either. We ain't never going to drink. Unfortunately. She became a victim of alcoholism as well. But for my younger brother's they were able to hold on and kind of Follow that lead so I'm very happy and proud of that and then marrying my wife who also it's over. I think that just solidified the deal and I think that also adds to the attractiveness of you that you hurt held hold those same values and for our children, I don't ever have to worry about them growing up and

30:13 Place with turmoil in and those kind of things

30:18 Yeah, I think it's so many ways we have whether it was intentional or or just by by chance. We have really raised our Narragansett family and a lot of really good traditional ways, you know walking the Red Road of sobriety and not drinking and doing drugs or smoking cigarettes while using tobacco and sacred ways and I think of the primary source documents that Rodger Williams recorded where he talks about how Narragansett parents raise their children and how we never hit our children and in from Rodger Williams perspective our children were spoiled because you know, we really let them be that the Curious young ones that they should be and

31:05 I think we really done that with our seven children. We've really let them be themselves that I know from the outside looking in people must think we just spoiled their children rotten we do but it's all in the name of tradition. Absolutely. So we made it to high school together by time. We were 16 and 17. We were engaged you sold your red Jeep to buy my engagement ring and it was a diamond solitaire with four little diamonds on the side look like so cheap and then graduation was coming in by then and you were the father to a baby cuz Lindsay had come along wamasu Catan have come into the world from that year that you did not talk to me.

31:52 And

31:55 It was time for graduation and it didn't look like you were going to graduate after taking a leave from high school so that you could work full-time to support your daughter and

32:12 You did the tutoring to complete your English credit, and I remember I went up to our principal at the high school and said that you had passed your English class and you absolutely should be graduating from high school. And he then said well, then tell van to come here tomorrow and you walked the stage and got your diploma and very appreciative of that.

32:40 As in the day or was that as long as I pass the English that I could graduate. I worked as a janitor full-time 12 to 8 in the morning and then went to that tutor guy who did the English credit with me and I didn't quite complete the course, but even if I took zeros for the couple things that I had left, I would have got a B in it. And so that was the whole argument and debate and luckily I had you is that was one of many times that you advocated for my betterment to Advocate and allow me that opportunity to walk the stage since neither of my parents graduated from high school. So who has been the biggest influence on your life. And what lessons did that person teach you.

33:34 So without a doubt, I mean whenever someone asked that I think most people immediately think to their mother and yes, she was very influential to me and I wouldn't be here without my mother say you got to give

33:50 Credit they are and my grandmother as well. But overall I would say that you have been the most influential person in my life. You have shared the same values as me. You have been my greatest friend. I could ever ask for I fall in love with you each day. I wake up next to you. I'm very happy and examples like that the graduation that you go out of your way to make sure that I am okay and I am doing my best in this world. I remember I speaking at graduation. I remember you coming to me and saying throwing you want our kids to graduate high school, right? I mean graduate college, right? And I said, of course about there's no question and you said well,

34:42 I think you need to go and graduate college so that they don't have an excuse not to because their father has and I went back to school and graduated and is you're always pushing me to be better. You're always there for me and it's pretty amazing to watch you not only advocate for me when I need it. But to advocate for our children. Palmer, who has autism children with learning disabilities. You are just the BS the most fierce advocate for them and you make sure that they have all the accommodations they need and as a father, how can you ask for anything more then someone who is just taking care of everything and making your children?

35:37 In a place to be successful. I'm very appreciative of that. I wasn't expecting my eyes. I'm just so proud of the man that you are and that you've become from that little boy who was not very nice to me. We're a little to the amazing man that you are today and within our tribal community so many people just honor you for the great man that you are and you know, so often wear at tribal events and people come up to you and say Fawn, when will you run for chief Sachem and of course you always reply that you don't have those aspirations that you know, your focus is really on your family and raising your seven children, but that is a tremendous honor that you have so many tribal members that asked you when will you run for tribal Chief because they want to vote for you to be the chief of our tribe or my vote is for you, babe.

36:34 I can't be Sachem overdrive when you're running a household. But you lived your life and a good way and full of tradition. You know that I think of so many children in this try that you taught how to play the flute or you talk different traditional stories to war. You're a championship Eastern War dancer, the you make your traditional clothes in the traditional arts and crafts that you engage in and and learning the language and and trying to speak the language as much as possible. But the ceremonies that you're a part of the naming ceremonies that you've been honored to be a part of the sunrise ceremony is that you are part of you know, all this you just doing a good way and so you're just so honored and respected within the community for those reasons and I'm really thankful that our children are growing up in a home where they have these

37:34 Narragansett parents that are traditional and sober and able to raise their family in such a good way.

37:44 Thank you for your kind words, and I can't do anything without you.

37:51 So, who do you think would be the most influential person in your life and you don't have to say me cuz I don't think it would be me. I'm a person in my life.

38:06 You know in a lot of ways my children are the most influential people in my life today because I just learned so many lessons from them and I think you talk about the advocacy work that I have to do for these children and I think it just really opens my eyes to the challenges that young people face and makes me actually be a better classroom teacher because of the advocacy work that I do for my own children without question. It's the women in our family, you know where this patriarchal community and we did at National genographic project in our genes. Go back on that X chromosome to Narragansett to Narragansett Narragansett for time immemorial and so I look to my mother Dawn Dove and my grandmother Eleanor Spears stop all the way back to the beginning of the Narragansett time these women were from this place and the blood of our people is in this land and this is so much strength that comes from the

39:06 And as women we're going to wear the carriers of this tradition and where the carriers of our people and we're the ones that keep these families together and love our families into wholeness and there's no question that I would not be the woman. I am today if it were not for the strong Narragansett women that came before me.

39:24 Diagram

39:26 It's really special for me year after I lost my grandmother that that was right around just before we got married and does that mean just after we got married and I was finally able to have your grandmother to hold on to as well. Cuz both of them were pretty extraordinary women and certainly matriarchs of Archer. I've absolutely

40:03 We're at 40 minutes. Now. Do you want to say anything to wrap up to each other?

40:08 So we are coming upon 20 years now and I'll little magical story and that we had tough times at certain points as all relationships do for God for the last like 10 years. Definitely sent Trevor. Noah spent pretty easy. We're on easy street. We are about to approach our 20th anniversary and that is very exciting and I am really looking forward to our future to to watching our children continue to Blossom and become adults. We have one adult. That's far.

40:48 How about some does plenty of the rights that are coming up and

40:53 Where do you see us?

40:56 In like 40 years when we're like approaching eighty. What it what do you what do you see? I like looking like then why is will be very so much of the wives that we've watched for your GG your grandma Grace and for my grandmother Eleanor we see their lives and you know, both of them making it your grandmother and her eighties a my grandmother and I went to her nineties and they are just surrounded by family think of when it's a birthday or a family occasion that was honoring either of them their homes were just full of family and love and food and celebration and the continuing up traditions and I think that'll be the exact experience that will have when we're on our 80s that we will have this home that will just be full of family full of love and certainly full of food. I was smiling as you're saying that cuz I'm trying to embrace it at all that it

41:53 Seems like a wonderful time. Thank you for being my wife and thank you for being my husband. I think we truly have a wonderful life.