Matthew Collins and Matthew Martin

00:02 My name is Matthew Collins. I'm 37 years old today's date is July 13th, 2019 and Dallas Baptist University. I'm my interview partner is Matthew.

00:15 Do I just met today? All right, I'm Matthew Martin, and I just turned 44 today is July 13th, 2019. We're at DBU and I Dallas Baptist University and I just met Matthew Collins and we found out just now that we happen to be neighbors 2.

00:34 Could you talk a little bit about your up what your upbringing was like and maybe how that's influenced your current religious and political views. So I grew up in Oak Cliff and in Dallas and going to Cliff Temple Baptist Church the church I go to now.

00:58 I guess I think I had a fairly normal childhood until I was ten and my dad died when I was ten and that was a big event in our family's life. I have a little brother and you know, we were going to left with just my mom and then we moved to Duncanville which is just south and that's where I graduated high school and I guess you know High School be in the formative years. That's really probably the biggest influence in my life was getting my Dad's passing. But you know, the church was always there for us people in the church were there for us and

01:43 I think just for me. It was more of a kind of a wake up more of a realization that not everything in life is happy. You're hunky-dory, but

01:55 Certainly, you know the church is has Southern Baptist Roots, but it's very Mission and Community focused and oriented and that's been a big influence on me to that.

02:11 You know the way that God shows his presence is through Us and how we love the people around us. And so that's always been a big influence on me, too. But that's a little bit about you know, how I grew up I guess.

02:29 A little bit about your upbringing and maybe your path to your current religious and political views like rope in the mountains of North Carolina and my family both of my parents side at my mom. Mom mom and dad both sides grow Baptist. We were I guess we said about third grade with my mom start homeschooling us and so and she pulled us out of school for religious reasons that

03:01 We are.

03:04 I guess and I'm in this probably lies about 10. She started working at a local Baptist Church and as a choir director, and so it was very much the old time religion southern gospel music and just a very

03:23 Living in the city now at the I look at that the faith of my childhood and growing up and like I love that the close-knit nature that of the the church I grew up in and then I guess I was probably 15 or 16 when the church fired my mom and they they fired my mom because they didn't like the music that she was picking which is

03:52 Hangout seems small in the scheme of things for it for church and for me the kind of the falling out that had cuz I was like best friends with the pastor's daughter.

04:07 With you know, our our our group we kind of the ideal image of church really kind of was

04:16 In a way shattered for it for a young young believer.

04:22 Because, I got shunned by friends and but then we started working with another friend of ours who is a pastor and we sort of launched a non-denominational Baptist Church. That was

04:36 You know now we see all the mega churches and for are fairly small town. It was a

04:45 I said precursor to we had the band we had the we had the more I making Eric what's relevant sermon topics and and that was it. That was then the next kind of Faith Journey. There was kind of exploring non Baptist ideals and in the background of me going no experience in all this and saying this

05:13 I was dealing with

05:17 Church teaching on homosexuality and me realizing from a real early age that I'm wasn't are quotes normal that the

05:34 The way we turn right now is that I've got an issue.

05:39 And you know, I I never acted on anything went to college was it active in the college Republicans? Cuz my parents were very very conservative and conservative across-the-board wasn't socially liberal fiscally conservative kind of thing. You hear a lot of people say but conservative and that's the way I believed, but I had a

06:13 The conflict of

06:16 Of dealing with

06:19 Kind of the political plus religious guilt for for lack of better term was it just starts eating you up more and more where you

06:36 It starts bleeding over into other parts of your life where you're not living in authentic life and really my relationship with God started to suffer because they started to suffer but more on the lines of

06:56 The

06:58 I didn't feel that.

07:01 You know, I was coming to realization that either.

07:04 The feelings I had were going to send me the hell.

07:10 Or was I truly saved by grace, which is the the thing you learn about from the beginning of of

07:21 Evangelical Christianity, is that our

07:27 But that's how salvation comes through Christ and was I right or was I not was that was the big kind of question? Could I live a life?

07:41 In that much conflict and

07:45 You know ultimately and I was I guess the first time.

07:51 I didn't vote for Obama on in was 08.

07:55 And I would have for the libertarian. I think Spot bar was running back then. I didn't vote Democratic until 2012.

08:07 And honestly, it was nearly until then that I'd say my

08:12 Political change was was more evident for me because it.

08:21 It's one of those things that

08:23 And how I got to 2B I don't and I would even say that I'm a Democrat. It's that I I couldn't vote for people.

08:35 Who minimize Humanity or at least my rights or kind of the accept accept me for who? I am is kind of what it boils down to but as I've come over to the dark side, there are more things that I see them like that I disagree with.

09:02 Air quotes Republican or conservative ideology that I see?

09:08 Democrats or liberal again are quotes.

09:16 Doing things that are what I believe more in line with the gospel.

09:24 Matthew I have you ever had your faith sort of conflict with your political views or have you voted politically does it inform your politics?

09:37 Yeah.

09:39 I definitely wish there was a third-party, you know, I think there are things that I disagree with them on both sides and I think

09:50 You know thinking about what a third party would look like it's hard to just pick and choose from either group that you know, because there's really right. Now there's there is a third-party choice. I mean even libertarian would be okay in some respects and then other things are lacking but

10:16 Yeah, I think.

10:20 I think I can sometimes separate. You know, what's public life versus my personal beliefs and I'm okay with that cuz I think we all do that in a in a pluralistic society and we kind of have to do that because there were things that I agree with personally that I wouldn't necessarily put on somebody else and there are things that

10:48 I think are politically important to have a society that can get along. It wouldn't necessarily agree with personally, right? So

10:59 Conflicts are there but I feel like I can navigate the difference between was politically important and what's personally important and I completely agree. It's the I think we've been told and and I don't know how it is. Part of me thinks this is naive, but the the way of things have been reduced to this or that is all about political power don't totally yeah in that how we know if it's if it's Republicans Or democrats conservatives or liberals, you've been told that and the other is the enemy and that there is no middle ground and

11:46 And I don't know if a third-party represents middle ground or

11:53 What's her name? Marianne Williamson that. I don't know. If you saw her on the it was a democratic debate. She's kind of wacky an out there and kind of fun, but I'm not promoting her in any way, but but that's the that to me. That's the thing is is that we

12:11 We have conversations with people that are different than us every day and yet we're in a position nationally where we've been told that.

12:24 That's all you're jumping example. Like Obamacare is socialism when it was thought up by a republican Think Tank and Mitt Romney did it and whether you like it or not in the end messages in massachusett, but

12:42 It's like an Indian like for me I've had like kind of a wild ride so my grandparents were Baptist.

12:50 My grandfather was born 1913 and worked on the Civilian Conservation Corps during the Depression and I was talking to another like cousin I think at his at my grandfather's funeral and he and he said well, you know Cecil my grandfather. He was a socialist basically communist nothing like what he's like he'd have been I never had these conversations with him. He like to play bridge a whole lot but it was basically was Andy know that we should like redistribute wealth and my mind is blown. I'm like, I'm nowhere near that what I would say liberal or socialist stick, but to know that my grandfather who was born and raised Southern Baptist in the mountains of North Georgia was redistributionist.

13:50 I say to the left of Bernie Sanders that's that's wild to me that is interesting part of the public works or or I'm social security for like 50 years which you know at its core is a social is a social program. So it's

14:16 So I guess am I my journey to two more liberalism is a family one that's been and then I've always heard this kind of

14:26 I don't know if it's just that a thing that happens is that you know, you go opposite of your parents and then my cuz my parents are real conservative and to know if that my grandparents were fairly liberal, but I think they're more on that yellow dog Democrat sure thing cuz when we talked about politics or we didn't talk about politics romance grandma's house and she didn't vote for Obama, but I a southern white lady from

14:57 Baptist Steve getting her hair done that day. She had excuses. I think we all really know why but but she did feel for Hillary and even more interesting than yeah, but you know was all are but it was her church left the Southern Baptist convention and I think they're part of them more.

15:21 Cooperative the quote yet exactly Which Wich another funny thing if you've ever gone up in a Baptist Church Baptist Churches don't call liberals liberals. They are moderates in or at least in the North Carolina baptist conference. That's what they they called the ones that you know, we were against they were the moderates and you know it it's funny how we leaving back down or labeling. Sure.

15:50 Yeah, sometimes it makes it easier to talk about things but then it's make makes it harder to get to know people exactly.

16:00 What was your family very political or

16:04 Well, yeah, I think it's interesting that not real sure about my grandparents and political Persuasions, but my dad actually worked for the Democratic party in Texas, and he was friends with different political leaders.

16:23 And I guess I knew that but then

16:29 Probably just because he died when I was young develop my own political understanding and there's definitely things that I like about the Democratic party, but then there's things I just don't either and that's why I would love for a third party to come in. I think it's a ripe time for a third-party. I think a lot of people that would call themselves moderate would gravitate to a third party were more people could be represented, you know, and it's in a more civil manner, but I guess I am fairly conservative, but what people call, you know, socially compassionate or whatever. I think the the government does server role but I think it's almost more infrastructure and more on the boundaries of life where that's where you know,

17:29 That plays a role and then we have that freedom has people to live lives. So the way we want to go away we need to so I guess that's I do think the government plays a role. I just think it's limited but that's one of those conservative talking points, but I don't really identify with that either and I'm frustrated with conservatives Iroquois. Again, if you were building your ideal political party, what what elements do you pick from from from both?

18:08 And I think social programs are important for the things that build society and places where there should be a safety net and like a recent job that I had was for one of the local MHMR and you know, even though I grew up in southern Dallas, you know, didn't didn't always see exactly how people were living but I did working for that for that company and you know, I do think safety nets are important, but I think also, you know things like job training things like help with education those are important, but they have to be applied. Well and in a way that actually I'm also I guess I'm going back to school and got my Master's and so knowing how stats get manipulate.

19:08 I think I think it's important to use data to help Drive where the money goes and like one of the only programs out there. It's actually helping people get out of poverty is job training and there's not nearly enough money going into that. It's all just being like giving out and you know, this sounds like like money shouldn't be giving out I think there's a time and a place for Social Security payments like that supplemental security and disability income those have a role, but when people have still the ability to go back to work and contribution not to just to society but to themselves to their neighbors to their Community, I think job training is where it's at. That's where the money is needed and I think that gets lost in the shuffle.

20:08 Conservatives don't talk about it because it cost money socialist don't talk about it isn't like Democrats will talk about it because it actually helps people get off government rules and they don't like that either I think because it's goes back to what you talked about earlier power and people like their power and

20:31 Yeah, we are kinda related to that back during the the recession my might have worked with my dad and we had a kitchen cabinet company South Hillsboro, Texas and he was a partner and one of his business partners.

20:56 Because of the recession had to sell out to another sell his share of the business to another kind of private Equity Firm kind of thing, and I'd seen my dad work his whole life and finally have a

21:13 Like new ownership in this company and it was worth so, you know a good bit of money and

21:21 And you know that the double bootstraps mentality and

21:27 During that kind of peak of the recession the other owners of the company kind of got together and force my dad out.

21:36 For like pennies of what the company was worth and so my dad was out of a job shortly. Thereafter was out of a job and

21:50 So we we ended up both being on unemployment leaving time.

21:56 And it was

21:59 Growing up, that that that idea that mentality of what I'd say, like classic conservative economics and

22:11 Being at the the the boot end of classic conservative economic and basically saying everything you're you worked for and because the way that text structures like I guess it's tort law or whatever just the ownership in business world of that.

22:31 But my dad had no recourse into getting more and even to this day. I see him, you know, you're still want that.

22:46 Me and still fighting for that kind of business thing in it or that that economic, you know bootstraps the air quotes of right-wing economic. I like you got your butt handed to you by

23:04 These by this the way that the system works and I'm by no means of redistribution. I like I'd love to be rich one day but the idea that this and especially on this kind of

23:25 The way that Republicans are and or conservatives talk about how business people know best and how

23:36 How's that economy that were busy, me that we built, you know, there are winners and losers and it hurts when you're a loser and but that safety-net.

23:53 You know when they were talking about during the stimuli are to the stimulus and all that stuff in the recession and people were arguing against sounds like that's paying my light bill and you know, I think I spent like 500 resumes and and during the height through session in it. I think I got like five interviews and I meant I had it easy compared to so many people out there and

24:22 So when you hear the this this idea that

24:28 Republicans are the party of of of business and of the economy or even fiscal responsibility like right now that you're bigger devis deficit than we've ever had before and it to me is discussed back that Republicans only care about deficits when they're not the party in power, right? And so I'd love to it and it's the weird thing cuz you grew up hearing that. That Democrats all the car tax and spend and

25:01 When it in the real case, it's Republicans just of the spins and actually

25:10 Fiscally responsible, I think in Germany, there's like a law that says they can't spend more than they take in. And so every year of the budget goes up and down based on what they take it I'll be like if that work here, but we just we love it's one of those things that you talked about holding on to power things that are politically divisive like the minimum wage things that they could fix politically but then they would lose Play the gold tokens, you know, so you like minimum tax minimum wage or tax rates that you know that aren't set to the economy in things like that use tools to divide people because when they're divided then they have to pick a side exactly. So yeah, I completely agree with that. You know Ross Perot was one of those guys who is like

26:10 We just need to fix a deficit George Bush didn't want to talk about it. Bill Clinton didn't want to talk about it. But the one the one was Clinton because you went ahead and put the bullet. Yeah, I did talk about it. And so because robot brought it up that was something that you know was a big discussion this week because of his death, but it was interesting.

26:36 I think there's too many things that are like that like you say is it.

26:42 Just political power and then it will just talk about because it helps to divide and brings people to one side or the other.

26:54 The cat in the thing at from my past and in my kind of how I

27:02 Religiously see things

27:05 The

27:07 Cross-pollination of

27:11 Basically white Evangelical Christianity and conservative politics scares me to death

27:20 Because you know, I'm I'm friends with lots of liberals. And and I know a lot of people younger gay people that have live through, you know, rough family ruff ruff coming out kind of things and who are so

27:42 They see this Fusion of conservative politics and what they see is that Jesus is that conservative politician and that Fusion of that is turning off a whole generation of people to your my view of that is is it is relationships with Christ that aren't happening because if they're going to have one have nothing to do with a church.

28:23 And I say Church, you know as a large since that believes.

28:30 You know that it's okay and it you know, we can get into the the stuff about the Border thing but when evangelicos

28:42 Christianity takes a side on that.

28:47 I believe we lose witness to

28:51 Two young people who are not going to have anything to do with with a face that seems to support that and it breaks my heart and it's and it's only through the grace of God that

29:07 I still consider myself a Christian. I meant I

29:12 It's one of those things that yes, I think I've clung to it, but he's clung onto me and won't let won't let me go.

29:23 Because for me it's a reality. This is how the world is that, you know, I am, you know saved.

29:33 And I believe that every day.

29:39 And to know that there are people out there that don't get that because they see.

29:47 A facade of of a church

29:52 That is out there promoting promoting. You know where it is. It's promoting a worldview that

30:02 You know rain, what is a Trump's America first thing America's great. We live in the best country in the world and

30:16 We're so blessed to live here, but

30:21 Having this this slogan of make America great in America First really?

30:31 Is going to turn off a generation of people.

30:34 And that to me that it's break my heart.

30:41 I'm glad that people are becoming more politically active and if that if it if it took drunk to do that, okay, I don't like Trump but I didn't want to vote for anybody else either and I'm kind of on the like in a few years. He'll be gone and we'll be on to the next round of political puppets. And you know, you have a lot of conservatives. I thought when Obama was elected as the end of politics in America right in this but I think the same is this I think the same is true for you know, when Trump was elected. They got. That's the end of American it's not America's bigger than one guy and he's bigger than

31:31 You know this Division and I think that there's going to be more conversation because of him then it will be good like this one small step and

31:46 I'm hopeful I'm not worried about you know, what the next 10 years are going to be like I still think that there's going to be division, but I still think that they'll people will be able to have conversations like this and I'm I'm glad for this one today.

32:08 Add more questions to Van now that we were kind of near the end trying to think of what would be a good.

32:19 Final question for you, I guess one question. I had was that what brought you guys to text as you can when you grew up in North Carolina, but was that the cabinet was again. Would it be a joke about you you I wasn't born in Texas, but I got here as quickly write good.

32:37 And yeah came here for that and I've been here ever since except for the grad school. Yeah. What were you doing in Southeast Asia?

32:47 Well, I was a church trip twice. So I've been there twice once with my uncle we went to Thailand and now is really to put on a retreat for missionaries that were in the area and I just went to help take care of the kids while he was doing baulos days with the rest of the group and may I know is a blessing I got to hold this little boy who nobody else would have ever held except for his family adopted in and that was a special time because for me it was a picture of what I feel like God does for us like I'm stumbling around in this world blind and deaf and I don't have anything else but his touch and this little boy blue. He wasn't happy unless somebody was holding him and singing to him and that was supposed to lot to me the other time was when

33:47 I lived in Toronto for a few years with a Church Plant and we went on a trip to Cambodia and at the time we got to kind of do some exploring in Vietnam and we got to meet this family that if we hadn't been late we were trying to go to this festival and showed up at these Fairgrounds two days late. And so we were just these white guys walking around in this agent little Asian town and stuck out like a sore thumb in this father and daughter just pulled up on their moped and stopped and stared at us and we had a couple of students from pnom Penh that were with us and they spoke to my and they ended up inviting us back to their house. And so we met this awesome family who already had gotten their lives. We didn't bring God to them. They had already found God and we just got to share more.

34:47 More about who he was cuz they didn't have a Bible. So we got to share a Bible with them. We would never met them if we had made our plans the right way and been on time we were late. I forgot that it was a God thing. I think what you

35:04 There's so much.

35:07 You know negativity surrounding kind of church things in the political things, but you know what you just said of I've had the Opera we went to Brazil and did a couple mission trips in the I guess I've been the late 90s and

35:29 Change in my life and seeing other people on that trip. I think that it's you know, if you want to call it.

35:41 Missionary tourism but there's something know that when you go for any person of Faith to go and serve other people in another place and meet people who

35:57 Believers that are different than you who have different lives completely

36:05 There's something humbling about that and about and that to me is the you know, the ultimate thing we talked about this one small step that Christians in America are a part of something far bigger than that me know just the left-right divide that we have her that it's you know, the body of Christ is is around the world and that we're here to we're here to learn and grow from all of us. I think that's to me is is ultimately one of them like the big things that I think we need to remind each other out here. I think if we if the percentages or right

36:48 They're actually more Christians in China than in American. Oh, yeah, if it fits the percentages I've seen her right? I think helps those two.

36:58 Like you said take the focus off ourselves. And yeah, yeah, stop being so self-centered and exactly or even knowing that they were thinking that you know our ways the only way or the right away. Thank you so much for this this conversation for hanging out.

37:17 We call it your testimony. Sure. Yeah, we weave weave hurt each other's testimony of small part of it. Yeah, I need three hours at least and maybe a tambourine. Yeah, I don't play much talent. I think it calls for a beer follow up. Sometimes that's definitely definitely