Troy Grant and Alexis Saunders

00:03 My name is Alexis Saunders. I'm 17 years old today is August 20th, 2011. We are in Washington DC and mr. Grant is my former teacher.

00:16 And my name is Troy. I said no me has no me has T S Grant. I am 41.

00:26 At today's the 20th of August 2011 where in DC and Alexis is my former student.

00:36 So let's start with the basics Mister Grant. You spell Mister Grant no matter how old I get. Why did you want to become a teacher like out of all jobs do young kids want to be like a firefighter, especially like a black male? Not many black male teachers at all really especially in the Prince George's County school system. So just like we did you wake up one day and was like, you know what I want to make an impact or did you just you know, this is easy to be hard. So honestly,

01:14 I was looking for a job after I came out of college, right? That's the true answer and I I applied to jobs as a researcher. I wanted to be

01:24 I will when I was an undergrad, I was in this PT preparation program right call the Ronald McNair Scholars. I wanted to go from undergrad to PhD.

01:35 And I was looking for research jobs, but after I graduated I moved to Maryland right to with my then girlfriend now wife, right Keyshia. So what was difficult is that knew no one would hire me as a researcher so because I need to research experience, and I probably needed a already been in the PHD program. So, so I was getting a lot of nose nose nose nose and tells taken like other job a job that was actually doing landscaping like cutting grass and stuff when I first moved here because I just wanted to be next to my girlfriend and then my mother-in-law she's a she worked as a long-term substitute, and she kept suggesting that I applied for the Baltimore City Public School System, you'd be great. You'd be great. She kept saying

02:28 And so I applied thinking that I could do it because I had done other things, you know, I was a minister and I was in the military so I had no your life, but I had no insecurities about being able to teach and so I thought that's an honest thing to do. That's an honest profession and let me go and do that and then I'd be interacting with the youth and kind of really, you know, indulging and ideas. And so so I did that I just launched into teaching in 2003 or 2002 Ashley and me and so I guess nine years later. Have you ever in those nine years like had one of those like a like a feeling like, why would I do this? Like I

03:28 Could have been something else or I fly cuz I know that you're very very intellectual and I think that you could have been like, you know, so many gone into so many different professions are different Paths of careers. Like did you ever feel like oh my gosh. What did I get myself into like do I really want to do this on a day-to-day basis? Like is this what I want to do with my life. The funny thing is I think most teachers and me included. We think that like every year and different parts in throughout the year. We think that teaches a don't think it are really kind of the exception there. They kind of know who they want to teach and they kind of go into this career with you know these ideas and what teaching is

04:16 But yeah, like back in 2005 or 6. I started doing some op-eds for like the Baltimore Sun and you can tell that my one of my last iPads was talking about getting rid of like kicking off like, donning and Doffing to bcpss ranked getting rid of the Baltimore City Public School System because I felt dumped on

04:40 And I do sometimes question like whether teaching is the thing for me. I'm in that, you know right now, you know that I'm in my email working on my PhD in and I constantly emailing people should I become Professor or should I say in a classroom?

04:57 But it's difficult. When you feel special as an African American male dumped on all the time when you feel blamed for everything and you will you all know. I am a professional I come to work on my time. I wear suit, you know, I you know, I hold myself accountable to a certain intellectual rigor. So for a broken system to then questioned my work ethic without even knowing me or walking into my classroom is very hard for me to take on a an emotional and psychological. So I do question I question whether this is worth it, but when I interact with students that say to me Instagram that was the best class I've ever taken or I kind of feel like you break it down. You make it easy then I'm touring Alexis. I really am because I feel like should I

05:57 Stay and know that I'm giving something unique to the students that you know, many of the colleagues probably don't get

06:06 Or should I leave because I don't feel like I'm having a large enough impact and so it goes the question of motive like sometimes I feel like my question is or this even self-exploration is a little selfish. But other times I kind of feel like you no. No, I I need to think about myself. I need to think about my wife makes twice as much as I do.

06:27 And you know when we're pinching pennies are like I'll be teaching a class partly motivated to teach that class because of the money that it brings this fall, you know, those kind of things like one of my work at a job. My wife doesn't have to teach another thing. She doesn't have to do something else her her salary in and of itself like is amazing. So should I be there? Should I be a spot that compensates me for my talents? And so I don't know like this is it's a really difficult place to be in so even nowadays 41, I'm still

07:05 I would use the term in turmoil over my future don't like what where am I going to rest my head? What am I going to do? So yes, it would stuff like some does it. You know, what do I what did I get myself into? I love doing what I do. I just don't like the the apparatus. So if you could change just one thing cuz I know you haven't been to change about not only like your school the school that you teach him but in the school system as a whole life will be one thing that you think would really have the biggest impact for 144 teachers like that would make the the conditions better for teachers to work in and then for students to learn like what would just be, you know, just something different a different type of learning something that would just really really better their education.

07:58 One thing I have to do what I did to you right? I have to limit right? Cuz like no I only ask. Okay. So I'm the student in this if I were to change one thing I would.

08:22 Change the curriculum.

08:25 Of

08:27 The public school system

08:31 And therefore the the discourse of the public education system.

08:37 To be centered around a Paulo Freire a style of teaching.

08:45 Which also includes see how you get away with doing more than one thing by commas and semicolons, which also includes the Howards end style education and the JW lowen style education and the Jared Diamond Style its people that understand that the folks that are being taught.

09:11 They're not being reached Alexis. They don't care about this junk that they're being shoved, you know, and they're they're being forced to to consume. They do not care.

09:25 In so if we had a curriculum that was from the ground up in the power frieri. I know that you're not in education major so frieri is all about going to a class not teaching them anything so many of them. What do you care about and Alexis is like, you know what I don't like the fact that there's a bunch of kids that dinner always hanging around and then that becomes the curriculum and so there's so much stuff that our kids care about deeply

09:58 That if that was the angle I guarantee you that would change public education as we know what hear the United States of America and even you know, I would say across you know the world if that idea that the ideas if if it's kind of like the whole home school and I bumped into a homeschooler recently and she said no it's just whatever my son is interested in is she so fascinated with the idea that this kid can just wake up me interested in bugs and then it's a science lesson. It's a it's a it's a social last in its it so that it would change Alexa's honestly I can go on with the Forever by won't that would change at everything?

10:41 Are there examples of those?

10:45 Ideas that you bring to your classroom.

10:47 Yeah, I think the fact that you know, this year will be reading young people's History of the United States the fact that I I bring in Snippets because it's never part of the curriculum right to I bringing Snippets of this right? So I'm always teaching with zin the New York Times did a story about me a few years ago in the story was about teachers who make a difference in the story was there was a girl who is failing right? She's failing my class. She came to me at the end and was like, mr. Grant. I need to pass right and Recorders and I looked at her and I said, well, you've been a little bootleg for the last 3 quarters. I don't know if she's I really need to pass.

11:35 I said go out get a people's History of the United States by it, you know borrow it for Library whatever you have to do and what you and I are going to do is going to get together after school and you're going to answer some questions based on this. So my goal is to help her understand history in a way that spoke volumes as part of me thought maybe one of the reason why she's failing my class because she's reading stuff I care about so I answered her and also inspired her and then later she became like the president of the student body and yet so yeah, I am that kind of stuff is fun for me and I wish that I could be more determined more of the the curriculum in my classroom. So you teach at a very very diverse school. I would say how has that like impacted your outlook on life people in general, you know, as far as stereotypes and Rachel Berry

12:35 And things of that nature

12:40 I think it I feel more like a student.

12:44 Then ever before because when I was in

12:47 Baltimore, right I once I had iPad classes of 100% African American

12:53 It's not the case here in Prince George's County at our school. We don't have Point High School. It is incredibly diverse people from not just here in America, but folks from the just came from countries in Africa.

13:06 That is so stimulating to me. Like I mean, it was almost it's almost.

13:13 As it's almost equivalent to my New York experience cuz I New York City walk down the street you bumped into folks all the time you like Harry from different restaurants.

13:23 I feel like a student because when I'm teaching I'm always constantly asking to how does it work in Trinidad. You know what I mean? How does it work? And you know, is that how it works in Ethiopia? How's it working in students? Give me genuine responses. So I'm constantly learning so that when I'm at a dinner table right where I'm at a cocktail party now that I go to those but you know just proverbially speaking but not too bored and I'm like, I'm the most interesting person. I have been taught by such a great number of people from different places and I'm sure you have a lot of parent conferences with many wonderful students and it's like how have the interaction with parents in different cultures different from you know, the parents of America cuz a lot of people say, you know, like Americans are hurt, you know lazy or you know, we don't take education as serious as some people from other countries like the you see that when you had when you meet with not only

14:23 Students but like a different work ethic or students in you no more involvement from parents of other cultures. That's kind of interesting question because first of all,

14:39 Okay, so here's why it's interesting because you would think that I would have lots of interaction right during parent-teacher conferences from folks with live cultures, but you kind of answered your own question in that.

14:56 Other cultures come and they have more of a, you know different, you know.

15:02 Attitude about our public education system and therefore I don't have to speak to their parent because they've got it. They're holding it down. Now, it was an exception this year right that I had one student who actually broke my laptop. He broke it. He pushed it off the table on accident, but he never apologized to me and when his father came in from a western conf country in Africa when he came I knew all man. I'm going to get this guy on I'm kind of like because honestly interacting with my African students there just a certain level of respect that their parents right hold them to Asian students, right Indian students more particularly in in Spanish students as well. Like I would rank African Indian Asian in Spanish in terms of or Latin, you know in terms of geography those

16:02 Levels of respect on my goodness, but I don't get a lot of time with those students as parents in Converse is because they hold them to a higher standard. So I'm primarily interacting with parents from the American, you know, genre. However, that one student it pushed my laptop off and didn't apologize. I was just waiting for his dad to come in his dad came in because he was an exception like he was just kind of like a a kind of an American student in many ways. You notes stereotypically write the I don't care blah blah blah medications in so when his father came in I said will you know how your son is doing? Academically I said, but I came for one thing.

16:46 And he goes what is that with it with the deed accent? I said I came from an apology from him and he says what do you what do you mean and I said it and you could see it in the Father's Eyes just the how almost like there was a generational disappointment that the student actually would do that bring dishonor to the family like that. And so you can see it even in his eyes if he felt it. It was waiting while I'm really sorry that my son did this so that kind of interaction I love but it's few and far between

17:26 So what would you say your most memorable moment or your happiest moment would be like in the classroom among your students.

17:35 I don't know if I have a happiest moment, but I think my happiest moments are when the students.

17:45 Lead the discussion and

17:49 Like for instance, you know, and I didn't think that this would come up.

17:54 One happy moment. Is this year when you decided to decided to lead a debate?

18:04 In seminary like hey, I want to lead a debate and seminar and you started talking about.

18:13 What do you remember we had so many debates has exactly what you're talking about. Let's start talking about abortion. And that was one of the most robust discussions and you know, because if I do it, right and it causes some emotional harm to students then go home and I get in trouble, but if you do it and I facilitate and I actually am not the leader of that discussion and that's going back to Paulo Freire e, it's I am actually sitting on the outskirts just watching you all educate yourselves. That is a happy moment. Those are the moments that I go home and say you'll never believe what happened today like Alexis came in talking about she wants to you know, basically facilitate a discussion and it was one of the most outstanding discussion Gad.

19:15 One of the students in the discussion was dead set against abortion right became pregnant at the end of the year and decided not to abort the child.

19:27 In to see the discussion go from just main Theory conversational to oh my goodness. She's living out what she said despite everybody in the class thing. Look, I think we should issue should be a woman's choice. This student was Resolute. No, it does not matter and now I'm in conversation with the student whose in you know, very challenging turmoil emotionally, you know kind of broken up the boyfriend doesn't you know is not giving her the love that she needs but the bottom line is she's sticking to her guns. She's like I will not board that came from you. So the fact that I can remember the story in the fact that that stimulates me. This is what I wish education is like so those are the happiest moment when it actually happens when education is done the way that it should be done. So you have yourself to thank for the old

20:27 Class when we're having some issues going on in school and we were all really upset about it. And with the girls class was our first class early in the morning. So we come in and we just be like fired up about it just angry. And so I remember the next class. You actually showed us a video about about the children and the in the March that they did on segregation and the the buses and the boycotting and it was all children and you show us the video and then the next in fact that day we were like, you know, what we're not going to do, you know, we went to our class and were like we're going to do this we're going to start this petition and we had a whole discussion about it and one of our other classes about what we're going to do and it was like you really motivated us to like take a stance on something we believed in instead of just sitting back and being like, okay. It's it's fine. You know, we just are going to take this cuz we're about to leave and

21:27 I really did feel, you know motivated and ready to go and I can't we're going to do this. So do you think you've ever had the impact of any particular student who was maybe gone into the community and or even Inspire somebody to become what they are now or go to college or just a direct impact on your students besides that situation.

21:48 Yeah, it's kind of you know, I'm kind of just goes back to the earlier question about the turmoil in deciding whether I want to keep teaching in the public school system or move on high read since I'm still relatively young teacher, you know, starting 2002 when I took a year off to start my grad program and then I went back and Prince George's County.

22:13 I haven't seen the full effect of

22:17 Mi teaching in my pedagogy

22:21 The challenge with I really wish that I had you all for more than one year me to I wish that I was able to follow that up and then come back the next year and do so Alexis. What did you do after I showed you that video you guys are complaining and that was part of it part of it was you all were complaining about something that I felt like you had the power to control and that's why I showed you the video of the The Children's March.

22:51 That these children changed right B U Know civil rights wasn't Martin Luther King. It wasn't these adults is so I tell you one quick story though this year that was my advanced placement psychology class, but my government students we get on the First Amendment and we start talking about the you know, Pledge of Allegiance. I tell my students every year, you know, you don't have to do the Pledge of Allegiance.

23:22 And this year I saw for the first time kind of a reverberating a fact teacher approached me little upset. I need to talk to you.

23:36 And what would you like to talk about? You know? Well, are you teaching your children that they don't have to say the Pledge of Allegiance? Yes, I am.

23:46 Would you know that that's according to Palm like they're exercising their first amendment rights. They don't have to say the Pledge and the fact that these students to came back and they were poor me to me. Yeah, that's right. I sat down and I didn't do the pledge of allegiance to me is kind of a

24:06 Just a glimpse of the possibility. I wish I had them longer because it's really not about just sitting down for the pledge just you know, for the sake of sitting down. What is realizing that adults are always right there not always informed. They're not always well educated about specific topics and issues. And so the fact that they felt I can sit down and not get in trouble. I think a lot of our youth whom I believe are they have the core of what's right in this country. I believe a lot of them should be at the Forefront of what's right and what's wrong in his in this country and specifically in schools and they're not because adults like the one that told them you have to do this or oppressing in many ways their believe. So the fact that I saw that was amazing, but I would like to

25:06 Around for longer and have more of an influence on students so that I can see the effect of what I believe is correct teaching.

25:15 So you I mentioned earlier your beautiful wife beautiful little kids. Do you ever think that

25:26 Better work interferes with your personal life as far as you know having to take care of two kids, which is of course a lot their young children. So, you know that that ever interfere or does it do you think like when you have a student in your classroom that you have two sons, so if you see a boy or like what I don't want my son to turn out this way or you know, so then do you go home and you're harder on your child because you're like you're not going to be like this when you get older, you know, or I don't want you dating this type of girls. I'm up mold you this way so that you aren't like that, you know once you get home or do you just completely separate like this is work in this is home. Yeah. Anybody that says a completely separate has reared their lying they really are and there's no way you're there is some spillover.

26:13 I get inspired by certain students like Cucina of the Spire by him but not inspired that he got accepted into Yale Brown Harvard every place to eat while you apply this Nigerian guy who comes over I was inspired by the level of humility. It's the one thing that stands out of China is the humility that he brought I want my son to be that way. I want him to be dynamic but yet nobody knows it. Like there's just such a a confidence in a security in him that he doesn't have to brag. He doesn't have to be upfront because of channeling to be running something. I may be working for him. You may be working him over there, but the bottom line is that you would never know it when you're interacting with him cuz he's just so chill and it's not patronising slayback.

27:05 Yeah, there was a student in one of my former students Colby.

27:11 Dad, we've interacted after he graduated. He graduated this year, of course, you know, love Kobe.

27:19 But I'm so he frustrates me to death with his laziness the fact that you can be so talented and so lazy, I figured you saw that one time where I really got on I'm in class and you know, we were talking about when they have went to the see your own the March down in DC and he was telling me how he's going to go to school and he's going to be a changed person and he didn't want to know anyone that at the school he was going to I was like, you know Kobe why why do you feel that? You don't want to know anyone from your your high school be like, I'm going to be a different person and everything and I was like, no you're not like remember that time in class. When is the grant like really really getting to you? I was like I was so happy that day. I said, we were all happy Kobe because we've been trying to tell you that for so long and he was like, you know what I really do like, you're right. I went to Grant was right. I know he was right.

28:19 I was mad that day but he was completely right about everything. He said and I'm really going to change and you know, he wants to go and he wants to get a four-point like these are his words. Like I'm going to get a 4.0 College Park freshman here. Like that's what I'm sorry. I messed up in high school, you know, and I really really realized that and I think that was just another testimony to you know, the impact that you as a teacher have on has another student, especially another African American male, which is really really important to me I think because he is he had to do in high school and could have been so much more. So I think that was really really important for him like houses going to go over because I lit into him like I stop a class right? I'm like, no. No, we're not we're not doing that stuff that we're supposed to do today.

29:16 We're talkin about you because he interjected himself in the discussion and made himself the center and I decided to do it and it didn't I think I said in there if you don't understand this is coming from love. Then I feel sorry for you right or something like that. If I had wanted to use the word like love right in speaking to another black man youth in the classroom, cuz I don't think that those things are being shared but Kobe has the talent to be anything, but he's not motivated and going back to my son my six and a half year old now Spencer.

29:55 She's so talented. Like he just doesn't care and nothing. You know, I care about so much in school. But I mean in in most areas he doesn't care about being like doing it, right, you know, and so I have to make sure that I'm not, you know pushing that on him and that he's going to be okay. He has his time don't put any pressure on the little one, but I do have to make sure that I can guard him from Fear right like, you know, he's not going to because you know, I didn't the College of his choice and blah blah blah, which is a bunch of junk anyway, so so yeah,

30:38 Speaking of college. I think that's another interesting belief of yours that college. Is it the best investment. Would you like to speak on that sir? Yeah, I don't think I think because of the current narrative is college solves all

30:59 We're losing Alexis. We're losing so many students and so many children that it saddens me, you know, one of the example of the uses the Articles of Confederation.

31:11 Which was you know, a document and a government that was set up between revolution and our current constitution.

31:22 No one no adult that. I know his ever talked about. Meanwhile. I have an African American boy sitting in my classroom that has to listen to me that stuff.

31:37 I look at his face. I see The Decemberists and it's on the state exam but he has to pass at the end of the year. I just feel like it's irresponsible for me to be in a position where I'm doing that just so we can go to college and he can be truth be told I would like him to do whatever he wants to do that makes him feel secure. I wish we had more factories in United States of America. I wish we had more entrepreneurial Ventures high schools. Don't teach about really being an entrepreneur high schools. Don't teach anything outside of this this this narrow window of college and unfortunately, you know, the majority do not go to college. So if the majority don't why are we forcing our students to have that ideology and so it kills me and I think we just need other options for our students and I need to be able to teach those things. So while college is good.

32:35 I don't think it's the only thing I wish it was cheaper, by the way, so I was saving this for last, you know, it was coming. Mr. Grant's not your personal belief in religion, but your belief on religion in the school system because of some people argue, you know, they took religion out of the school, you know, they used to have to pray in the schools. And not do you think it's okay to pray but do you think that that religion should be more evident like in in just an everyday learning and in even like religion classes and things like that within the school?

33:19 Should be allowed good question.

33:26 Yes, or no the yes part the no part as I do think that you should be a separation cuz I worked once worked at a school with it. The principal was like okay. Everybody is a Friday announcement to make sure I make sure you going to church on Sunday and look like with your muscles. What if there's uses that I've talked to some of my colleagues were Jewish after a holiday concert, which was really a Christian concert in I asked him I said I wanted to find out how you felt about that and he said, you know, it was a really kind of bothered me to to alienate those teachers to me is not what we should be doing in a public school setting however, there are students that have to pray or that choose to pray 5 times a day. I think they should have their space to do that. I think that if you're having a particularly particularly challenging day and somebody's getting on your nerves or whatever the case is and you want to go off.

34:26 Pray, cuz you don't smack somebody tide head. I think you should be able to do that. But I don't think a particular religion should be favored over another and so if we say religion should be allowed whose religion the majority of the people at our school are Christians. And so that would be kind of the majority of the narrative right are you know last year? I had an intern who is you know, and he was very visibly I should say going to go up Muslim and a lot of our customers. We don't even realize that a lot of our customs in the way that we act everyday is judeo Christian and so it would have an impact on them and I would see it and so I don't want anyone to feel that way. And so therefore I say no on that sense, but yes that there should be a kind of a liberty.

35:21 Teachers

35:25 Political Minnesota Alexa have a question for you. Do you remember you're the first day of class? When was Granite do I remove my first day actually what I remember most is before you take the class the year before you have to come to his class and get the papers and sign up and I remember I walked into his classroom and everyone was like don't take me to go to class. Are you really hard? And you know, it's it was like that division of people who'd say it's a really good class but it's really hard. It's really the class but it's really hard. So I was going to be miss a student and go take the class and I went to him. He's like, so what's your GPA you look at the time like at 3:30 or something like that and then he's like why is it so low and I'm like, what now? What do you mean low? Like, I know people who have like one point. I was like that's not low at all and then he's like well, why do you want to take the class? And I remember that day so perfect.

36:25 And it was like he was scaring me into the moment. And then when I actually got to his class I was like is this really the same guy? Like he's so cool and chilled and laid back like you would have thought it was two different teachers. So I don't remember the first day at all. In fact, I remember the year before having to go to him all scary and mean and like tall and stuff and I'm like, what am I going to do? Like, I'm not sure I want to do this, but I'm glad I took the class. It was like really my best class of everything and in all my years of being in the school system impact

37:02 It really made me look at things differently. Mr. Grant's hot in a way that he didn't just teach with the book. When is used to know like he said he's at his own like personal Twist on things which I thought made me help me feel like really understand a really be interested in whatever it is. Whatever it was. He was teaching and it made me even this summer, you know, I emailed him and I was like, I want to read a book and I was talking to someone and they kept agreeing with me and I don't like that cuz me and mr. Grant always would go back and forth and debate and division to bed now like I need someone to argue with me. Like no. Are you with me? My cigarette like I I want to say that Jesus is the way and I want you to say like well, what about Buddhism or something? Like it was just that that adversity like something different that I couldn't really find some other teachers. They kind of just that it was like they were scared to Branch out and give you more than

38:02 What they thought would be allowed or the only one to go by protocol and it was really boring. Like, you know, it's good to have someone to show you like every the world's not just black and white like, you know, there's there's more to education. There's more to life the things that you learn in the classroom. Like you don't have to be a doctor to be successful like you don't have to make Be A Millionaire to be successful and I think that was the biggest impact that I got from the class.

38:31 I need any last author. I have one question and I haven't done this a lot because you know, it's kind of feel like I'm in transition little bit, but I want you to answer honestly.

38:48 Will you tell me one thing that I could change as a teacher to be a better teacher?

38:56 One thing that you can change to be about more than one. I know there's a lot I use your words. I use your words.

39:06 I don't know like

39:11 Or what teacher would you like me to be more? Like honestly, I honestly I was telling my mom that I don't have another teacher like you would be the best teacher that I've ever had and I'm not just saying that because this is like on here like the only thing I would want you to change it to be more like I don't know. I used to want you to have like social discussions after school cuz I love like to talk about it. I love the debates in the confrontation. Like, you know, it was it was good confrontation. It wasn't just arguing about nothing or arguing about a rap song about your favorite artist. It was real issues that like really mad at that would make a difference nothing to that was really important and I feel like a lot of people when they left the classroom that went out the door for some people for some of us is sticked and we still talked about it. Like we also talked about it now, but that was the only thing that I ever wished that you would do is like after school or I don't know like we even where China is we were trying to plan a cookout so they could come so we can

40:10 Just talk about things. That's the only thing that I think I would like to change.

40:16 Makes me understand in class.