Bill Morton and K.P Hong

00:02 My name is Bill Morton. I'm 82 years old pretty good health for an 82 year old guy thankful for that. Today's date is May 28th, 2015.

00:17 We are in Minneapolis, Minnesota the city of lakes and I have just met K.P. Who is Ben who is going to interview me?

00:32 And I'm K.P. Hong. I am 46 and today's date is May 28th, and we're in Krista Tippett publication office in Minneapolis. And we met and it's a delight to share in this time with you Bill.

00:54 I thought of a a recent quote that someone mentioned to me. So forgive me because I don't know whom to attributed to but a story is a meal and a poem is like a glass of water and I love that idea about Stories being sick and Rich and maybe even extensive like a meal and I wonder if there might be moment or we can go back and forth between thick stories and maybe moments that are like a poem that refreshes us, but today is about a story and so I'm really interested in the thickness of stories that you may be bringing and I wonder if you can begin by sharing whatever story that you have brought with you this morning.

01:39 I'm a sailor the way I got into it as I was a Wilderness canoeist doing 10 day trip solo and that kind of guy. I'm an only child and so I get along very well solo my family annoying my canoeing in 2000 that I might like sailing. So without asking me they gave me sailing lessons for Christmas. My feeling was I'm not interested, but I better appreciate the gift and take the lessons. I got hooked.

02:15 Sailing is fascinating you sail by the wind I call my boat when dancing when I learn to dance the girl who is teaching me said you have to lead I have to follow I discovered that when you're sailing it's the wind that leads the Sailor follows and life is like that there's the blowing of the winds in our lives and we've got to pay attention to him and we've got to set the tiller on the basis of the way. The winds are blowing. That's a marvelous story from a canoe to saline.

02:59 Can you paint a picture for me of exactly what you describe? You described a working with the wind and following out for the win? But can you paint a picture of a moment where that comes to life?

03:17 I find a lot of wind blowing in life having lived 82 years. I don't want to begin as pastoring a church. I was asked to pastor church. It was 3 years old. It was not long after 1960 after the World War II when there was a church Boom everybody was going to church and so I took this church over and then four years it was going marvelously and then they asked me to start one from scratch Witch melting our house with for 2 years where you had 121 in attendance in our house at one time and

04:03 It was the last Church in the Wisconsin Conference the United Methodist Church to start for decades because there was the change of the blowing of the spirit people were no longer flocking to churches and recently there has been some starting of churches, but it's not been easy not as easy as it was when I started a couple of churches.

04:33 I can't help but to comment on the the metaphorical connections that you're making between sailing and Ministry the the boat which has been traditionally like into the ship of the church. That's and the wind obviously the wind of both the culture but the wind of the spirit that moves across the waters. Is there at that kind of link and meaningful connection between Ministry and sailing for you. Does that continue to be a metaphor that works both ways. I was moved by the spirit of God within me.

05:16 When I was serving a church in Janesville, Wisconsin.

05:20 To participate in the Civil Rights Movement something. I've never done before I had a very close friend in college was black and I knew some of the things through which she went.

05:34 I was serving in Janesville Wisconsin in the editor of the Janesville Press Gazette was editorializing against the March on Washington that would turn to Riot. I was moved deeply moved I had to go and I tried to get fill a pastor to talk me out of it and they tried to talk me out of it, but I could not be talked out of it. And so there was a bus leaving from the University of Wisconsin. I learned about and I picked it up and Beloit Wisconsin where in a clerical collar for the first time in my life on their paws, I was a center of attention all the way to Washington DC as these young people most of whom were white some of whom are black deeply questioning the church and its relevance to society and I was able to say to them will first

06:34 Paul I have to confess to them for on behalf of the church for example in Jackson, Mississippi the ushers of the United Methodist Church linked arms to prevent Bishop Golden Empire Thompson black and white from attending the church and they were arrested so I had to confess that but I said who is leading this March Martin Luther King Jr. Pastor Martin Luther King, Jr. And

07:03 So here you saw a movement of the spirit of God winds blowing of the water Unstoppable. I think it wasn't Martin Luther King Jr. Who is leading this movement on his own will just like he got taken by the nape of the neck and shoved up to The Cutting bread wedge of this movement. So the spirit of the mystery of God moves and I've seen the movement in women's Liberation. I've seen the movement in Gay Liberation been fantastic to see The Winds of the spirit. Maybe the latest is a very aware of globality where the Nations becoming interdependent upon each other. So to go to war is to go to war against yourself.

07:52 Wonderfully said

07:56 So if some of these wins as you said

08:00 Are so powerful. I'm thinking again literally about ships what happens to ships in maybe what happens to congregation then Faith Community when such powerful winds come do they capsized do they somehow work with the wind and learn to sail into catch that win? But as a sailor, what would you say? Okay, I can tell you this story the head of the Sailing School Lake Calhoun a fella by the name of Larry would ask me have your tip over you and I would say Tulare. No, sir. I have not tipped over and he says you're not a sailor yet and one day I came in drenching wet saluted and said hi Larry how much Lalor know the church?

08:55 I think the Winds of the spirit may be blowing where they need to blow today in relationship to the church came here after retirement in Wisconsin to serve my son who was paralyzed and I wasn't quite ready to retire at 67. So I said to the conference here put me to work full-time part-time in Fremont staff. I don't care where just one within an hour's Drive of Minneapolis. They gave me an inner city Church in Minneapolis Joyce United Methodist in uptown. I served it for 8 years kept it alive. So used to be a church of a thousand. It was not a Church of God Church of less than 104 years after I retired from that church that closed.

09:43 I had a vision in church really doesn't need to close when it can't afford a pastor and can't afford the building. And so I've continued with a group of that people very small group 10 to 20 and we found a little church called the table. I'm not paid for what I'm doing we meet on Sundays and we have a Bible study on Wednesdays and we do a few other things like Feed My Starving Children Service and I am trying to approach the institutional Church of the Minnesota annual conference to recognize this so that we can be a sign that when the church can't afford a pastor in the building it can continue and maybe that is the way the church is intended to be continued today. I'm not the Spirit by the institutional Church being in difficulty. Maybe it needs to be in difficulty.

10:42 There's another question that's

10:44 Maybe working its way to articulation Clarity in my mind, which is about you as a sailor. So we talked about ships and boats and canoes and weather patterns. And as I listen to talk about taking on this congregation as it went through a change, you know, I appreciate the capacity or the skill and experience that you as a sailor as a clergy to help navigate those Waters.

11:15 I wonder if you have some comments or experiences not just about the institution of religion and churches but about its Sailors. How do you teach someone to sail to navigate as a clergy as a religious leader? And so I'm doing it all the time because thanks to a friend of mine from Germany name. Verner. We were sailing identical size boats and after you're too I noticed he was having a lot of passengers on his boats not knowing where they came from and one day we were racing into the dock and he sees a couple of women standing on the dock and he says would you like to go sailing deal he will take you and I did and I said this is fun sharing something you love with somebody else so I bought some extra life.

12:15 And both he and I sense that time for the last five or six or seven or eight years have sailed into the dock and past people to go sailing. I did that yesterday beautiful day to sail yesterday. I had to go early because I had a Bible study at night. That's why I had to pull out at 3. And then we're at that time of day only a couple of people on the dock addressed one woman and said, would you like to sell it's free and she was a brave woman not everybody immediately. So that she said, yes. I said there's another woman on the end of the dock will ask her too. And we asked her and she said yes, then we went out and

13:03 First of all, I'd show them I was truck where you can sell where you can sell you can't sail into the wind you have to attack either side 45 degree angle. The different points of sail. This is a beam Reach This is close. All this is running how different is going to feel in those position. Then we get aboard the boat I sale it out and I demonstrate all of this and they're beginning to get the feel of the book. I purchase scary because about tips and you get gas and it really tip said that startles you but you're in control your attention to the wind or you can let out the main sheets and they begin to get comfortable with it after a while. We say to him. Would you like to try selling the boat? Some say yes with hesitancy Sons say definitely know will you respect what they say?

13:59 And I say I'll coach you and I'm ready always ready to grab that mainsheet and let it go to prevent us from turning over pretty soon. They're getting the feel of the boat out there watching The Tell-Tale that tells you where the wind is coming from and it's marvelous some people you begin to see the sparkle in their eye. Well over the years some have kept coming back after their first sale pretty soon. We send them out. So low, they become Sailors. And now what happened to us. Is that a fellow watch Star website selling Lake Calhoun Facebook just to see if we're for real and he walked up to a burner my friend and said I have a both for you and he gave us a 19 foot Pearson with a full keel.

14:57 And it's all cockpit so we can get about 10 people on that. Well with these people that we have talked to sail already. We've taught them to sail this bigger boat magic it's called, and so you never know who's going to be sailing it. We've got a number of people who we've trained up to be Sailors. And now they are taking people out for rides. Okay. Oh, wow. What a gift.

15:25 May I zoom in a little bit more into the detail because you talked about the person who says you haven't really learn to sail unless you've been dredged and you and I are both clergy and so I'm thinking about the Noah story which is about not getting drenched but staying afloat during a storm and then I think about the Jonah story where Jonah deliberately asked to be drenched and then he swallowed by the fish in the sea and I think about the narratives of the Sea of Galilee of Jesus and the disciples in the storm.

16:03 I wonder if I could focus in on being drenched because as a non sailor, I think I could appreciate the wind and learning to dialogue in adjust the sails to the wind. I like that part. I'm not so sure about being drenched and you mentioned the people, you know who were given life vest. I would be the one to raise both my hands. Yes, give me but can you help me to appreciate what happens when someone capsizes is drenched? How does one survive that I've never?

16:38 For being drenched in this way, but you have stimulated something to me.

16:45 Not talking about stealing but talking about life. I've been drenched very seriously twice.

16:56 I'm an only child. My parents were very shy people my dad a bus driver. My mother is a hospital attendant cleaning up after the doctors and nurses. We didn't go to church when I was a kid. I always have the feeling that they should have had me baptized and finally got around to it when I was about 11 years old, but wanted it done privately not going to church service, so I didn't grow up with religion in 11th grade. We must have made a mistake and going to church on Christmas or Easter Sunday. I don't remember which and the pastor Came Calling and I remember just asking me a question you said well young man, what do you have to offer to the church and my reply was probably not much Jack of all trades master of none with a wisecrack answer.

17:54 Well, we joined the church on parents and I together I've never been to sunday-school. I've never been through confirmation. We just joined the church. I didn't know what it was all about. And I sang in the choir and I found a fellowship in what was called the Methodist youth Fellowship. I met girls for the first time.

18:18 I avoided ever leading one of the Methodist youth Fellowship Services cuz I knew nothing where to look for anything in the scripture that I wouldn't know what to say. I went to the University of Wisconsin to be an electrical engineer and enticed into the Methodist Church on campus called Wesley Foundation and my freshman year a graduate student. Ken lip said to me would you be the editor of the Wesley whistle a monthly newsletter? I said I can't spell I'm not into literature, but he says I'll take care of it all but I like to have my name on the Masthead. So I agreed.

19:03 We had a retreat at the Pine Lake Camp on 10 lip cut wood when night light cut wood with him. He said I thinking of rule, Nebraska. I'm going out swimming tomorrow morning. Can you swim pretty good in the morning. Up and towel and shoes on the dock at 8, and we gathered for breakfast an hour or two later and wasn't there?

19:39 We began to despair. We send out teams into the woods. We set up the boat around the lake and I like the way around this little Lake they found 10 in 20 feet of water from Hawaii said he could die but that he had to go get us with me. So we said forget to take off your clothes. All right, he pulled him up here from that 20 feet of water. We got him into the boat. We gave him artificial respiration as we gave in that date.

20:10 Stud

20:14 That addressed my life deeply.

20:20 He was in cancer research. I thought of what he might do with this life and I thought

20:28 He took me under his wing and maybe editor this newspaper.

20:33 Now what am I going to do with my life and made to make up in a sentence for kids question couldn't

20:41 And through that and then moving from electrical engineering to Sociology to psychology. I got a degree in Psychology from the University of Wisconsin and with the help of some pastors who helped me with my problems with passport counseling like their life is Meaningful. So I decided to go to Seminary. I had never correct a scripture I tried but I'd run into a miracle and couldn't believe it and so I couldn't even read the gospel of Mark and I went to Seminary in that condition and that first year in seminary. I was immersed.

21:25 Halfway through the first quarter severe stomach pains after the weekend went to Student Health, they diagnose appendicitis, but with abscessed I would feel they wanted two weeks in the hospital. It's settled down. They said take incompletes go home put on a bland diet get back in school next quarter between the second and third quarter have your appendix on the sides of a muskmelon was told that my chances were 50/50. I said what alternatives do I have we got to do surgery again.

22:10 So we did that surgery again when I took in completes my second quarter in a seminary.

22:19 Halfway through the third quarter Seminary. I had to write a paper that I'd written in the course that I had started the first quarter and Seminary on what I believe about God, but don't get me any reasons. Why.

22:32 Well, I had not been able to write that paper because God was just the end of a proposition and it had come back after the first quarter unacceptable. Now, I had to write again at the end of that course at the end of the third quarter.

22:50 And I have learned from the scripture something. I didn't know before I thought the gospel was usual love God and neighbor. That was what I went to Seminary to Proclaim. Yes, that's true. But the real gospel is you are loved not you shall love you are loved but that wasn't logical. I was a very logical guy.

23:17 And I couldn't write that paper. I was pulling it out of the typewriter put it in the wastebasket and about 9 at night walked alongside Lake, Michigan.

23:27 The ways for Rolling In

23:31 The moon was shining I sat down.

23:37 I was in despair. I had just gone to see the professor of pastoral counseling and said I'm falling apart. I need you you didn't have an appointment for two weeks. I made it that night. I surrendered to the fact that I was loved just the way I was and I felt the most profound peace. Come over me. I want back into my room and I typed that paper.

24:07 But I went to the professor pastoral counseling the next day and said Doctor wise I don't need you. I'm okay, and I was so it's through being immersed.

24:23 That in the difficulties of life.

24:28 Nature really girl

24:31 The second one was well along in my Ministry.

24:36 When the phone rang one Sunday afternoon.

24:39 And it was her son Patrick in tears in Minneapolis.

24:45 He said

24:47 He was calling from the Minnesota River Trail.

24:52 It is taking his brother my son Peter Mountain Biking For The First Time in his life. Peter went over the handlebars and broke his neck.

25:03 Patrick came back and squeeze his chest was back not wanting to move him for her and for breathing.

25:11 Brought the color back later came to help them in live until the paramedics arrive by boat and helicopter.

25:21 And took her to the hospital got the call from Patrick and tears about what it happened drove to Minneapolis pounding the steering wheel of the car saying shit.

25:37 Angry at God

25:42 Not that God did that or had anything to do with it? I just needed somebody to be angry with I had this feeling afterwards. Has broad shoulders. He could take it and done.

25:57 For two years went to a support group cried all the time on my self healing after 2 years Peter after 5 years got married to the girl you've been going with for five years before the accident. Trying to scare his brother also lived the three of them live together.

26:19 Crystal Marie the bomb

26:22 Peter by computer interfaces for the World by modern science, they have two children that Mom was to Phoenix I moved here to help them when you go to Phoenix some years later. I said know if you're going to finish your going to Phoenix on your own I did and

26:43 He's living a wonderful and full life meaningful late raising money for spinal cord research.

26:52 That has resulted in my wife leaving me. We're very close to each other. We love each other dearly but she's the director of development of planning at Rutgers University for the spinal cord Research Center doing a great piece of work filling a great the calling of her life. I have the privilege of supporting her in that through these tragedies.

27:19 It's great good that comes.

27:28 Your last sentence is where I usually pause.

27:36 You said that you know the wind on the water and the being drenched kind of challenge the logical part of you and I work with other people and their voices turn into this pause because they still hold on to logic and they asked questions that are so difficult.

27:57 What is it about who you are?

28:00 When at that moment when the person you were supposed to meet to go sailing when you discover that he had round was dad. What is it about you?

28:13 That chose to steer a different path from what would electrical engineering or engineering to pursue a different path. I can rationally logically hear the voices of people who might say, why was that such a dramatic fork in the road? You know, you didn't really know the guy all that. Well, maybe you did.

28:40 And even with the tragedy of your son, you're being angry at God. There are other people who would not come to the conclusion that God has broad shoulders. I know many people who leave the ship of the church because the storm and their own life is just too much load up. Could you respond to that question? What is it about you or

29:08 I supposed to go back to that first experience with me where I felt that profound peace. So there was no question about the existent. Do you guys use the wrong word? We all experience mystery God is Mystery the same Larry at the sailing school rather skeptic one time called me in and said bill. I got to talk to you. I got to talk to you. I figure out what's wrong. What's your definition of God and I slept well, but I was in college Glen old sudden. He said no. No. No, I want your definition of God, right and the best I could come up with is the mystery.

29:56 The Play-Doh said the real does not exist that which exists is not real.

30:08 God does not exist.

30:11 Not part of the creation.

30:13 We can't find God God is Mystery if there is a God total mystery.

30:26 I Think Jesus is there have been people through history in a lot of different religions gotama the Buddha Jesus the Christ Moses the law-giver there have been many people in history who have had an experience of a burning bush poultry and have looked into the depths of the mystery of life and

30:57 Ever come to terms with it have experienced something. I think Jesus was one of them Jesus as the person the man who has had the most profound influence on my life.

31:17 I think that is baptism fairly more ordinary person Heard a Voice may be spoken to by John the Baptist but her dad mysterious voice. Don't work my beloved Son. With whom I'm well pleased who me

31:34 And he honestly said that cuz he was tempted. If I am then I can prove it by doing it prove it this way.

31:44 Okay, I will stake my life on it very human life. So he staked his life on it and

31:56 Didn't look out for himself heard of the word of love and literally embraced it and was filled there for with that love the spirit and loved in the midst of the world to the very point of his death and

32:19 Therefore we say

32:23 Maybe scientifically mistakenly, he's Divine because he became a very human expression of the mystery.

32:35 Not all of what the mystery maybe but the mystery is love and if we will turn in humility to the mystery, whatever we're guilty of is Forgiven.

32:52 We're free to live life as The Mortals that we are even before death itself.

33:00 To celebrate life to live in life to make a contribution to society.

33:10 So I think it's through these.

33:13 Prophets

33:15 We call them in different Traditions through which the rest of us can get us the sense and perhaps to some degree you make a commitment to trust the mystery and live life.

33:33 And it's an abundant life.

33:36 A marvelous life

33:38 Then I can tell just by both listening to you. But seeing you that you're someone who has both been drenched in the mystery mystery that is both tragic. But I also see you as someone who has been drenched in the mystery. That is also profoundly loving. I mean the way that you use that word that you are loved.

34:04 But you kept on repeating the word immersed hendren stem that comes through so clearly.

34:13 What happens to you today now or is you look into the future having been immersed and baptized and drenched in this mystery that is law. Where do you set sail either literally or metaphorically years old.

34:33 I meet with a group of people that one kind of in the middle of the age group that I made when

34:42 Sometimes we repress our death are coming death.

34:49 I haven't repressed that I'm very fortunate. I mean at 82 to have the hell that I do I do it all kinds of little things are going wrong. And I sometimes say to people my philosophy is do all you can as long as you can but know what you can.

35:15 The I could not do the 10-day solo Wilderness canoe trips today. I could still lift the canoe. I can know what I'm doing. I could do it a day or two. I wouldn't have the endurance to do it the cross. I stop cross country skiing last year. I could still do it. But my balance isn't what it used to be. So So Def, where death is approaching.

35:45 Death is very fearful.

35:47 Jesus said if you will take this cup from me and on the cross my God my God. Why have you forsaken me we do it alone with no insurance.

36:01 I trust the God who has spoken to me and given me peace. There's another side to life. I trust that.

36:14 It'll be very different than this side. I have no idea what it will be like except I think I know it will be.

36:23 Filled with love. Jesus has said to us.

36:28 That in that state they neither marry nor given in marriage. Okay. I will not any longer be married to Patty.

36:37 We will know each other and we will be more deeply in love than we have ever been but we will be equally deeply in love with all that's my vision. We will not be physical and also Paul says were born a physical body where raised a spiritual body. Whatever that means. It's another dimension.

36:59 I see you when I see evidence in a scientific age of this dimension.

37:05 In our consciousness

37:08 Yes, our Consciousness is very in tune with the facts of the material world out there. But our Consciousness also known as the past which is adult there and it can anticipate the future which is not yet or Consciousness is bigger or consciousness of unconscious. I can be conscious of the whole universe as we know it today. So

37:40 I think perhaps on the other side of this material world. There is the world of Consciousness the spiritual world and I have no choice but to leave this world, which I love.

37:59 And go to that early unknown world.

38:04 Which I know nothing about.

38:08 Let's welcome the adventure.

38:18 I wonder before the the flow of the waters carry you into that immersion that mystery call Dad are there on the Lighter Side by their particular places that maybe you wish you could drop anchor for a while or places that you might want to visit or experiences.

38:40 It's all the time.

38:42 I intend to go sailing if the winds were right after I leave here yesterday was wonderful the winds were perfect. I go for a walk almost every morning summer or winter.

38:57 How things have greened after the reign of the last couple 3 days things are Lush. I walk around Centennial Lakes and they drain to let down about 4:50 to clean out the LG the spring and I thought The Cattails they were just Brown from last year. I thought they would never be and I walked there brought the water back of Thor Cattails have sprung to life their green that are there tall. They're wonderful people with this word. They asked me. How are you? My life is good.

39:44 Bill, I guess as we come to a close, I want to express my deep gratitude. It is not an exaggeration for me to say that as I experience the emotion with which you communicate these stories that you are fluid. You are like water and the experiences have not only immersed to you by Shana story. I feel part of that immersion. Thank you for sharing your stories and thank you for being you.

40:18 I appreciate your questions. Thank you.