Catherine Milton and Gregg Petersmeyer

00:02 Yeah, I hiked 225 miles.

00:05 I'm Gregg petersmeyer. I'm 66 years old. Today is October 20th 2015. The location is Houston, Texas and Catherine are old friends who began a relationship around service 25 years ago.

00:22 And I'm Catherine Milton. I made 72 and its October 20th 2015 where in Houston and Gregg petersmeyer is someone I worked with closely and probably the most exciting part of my life pretty together service.

00:39 So Katherine, let's start with how did you get involved in in the service working at altamed became part of the national service movement.

00:50 I think it came from.

00:53 Several experiences. First of all, I worked in Washington DC on issues related to criminal justice and police issues and I work with those in the government outside the government with presidents both from both parties. And I learned from that experience that it was possible to make a difference in the world came up legislation that improved the victims and actually improve the composition of police department. So I I learned that but then I also saw what was happening and that there was some the whole idea of natural Service public service wasn't being there was no call from the top to do that. So as a result, I decided to go out to Stanford University where I worked as a special assistant to the president and for 10 years. I worked to try to commit to create Surface Pro.

01:54 That would make a difference in the lives of young people and get them involved and helping to do improve the world and end in 1981 and I did that for 10 years and it was very exciting because you realize that young people really did want to get involved and out of that. I started to work with my president of the University John Kennedy and others who formed the organization called campus Compact and that was an organization to try to promote the idea of national service and we came to meet you I came with Susan Stroud was a big deal to go to the White House to meet with you to try to sort of see what was happening from your perspective and how we might work together to promote service among college students at that point.

02:51 So that's in a way how it got going but I will tell you from my perspective. I was very focused on how we could do this at the local level with private money and federal money. I thought that the way to do this was to sort of create more opportunities that would encourage people with some calls from leadership in the top-right and tell me about how how you got involved.

03:22 Well I had

03:24 I had worked I'd known President Bush the first President Bush for many years. I met him when I was 17 or 18 years of congressmen and fast forward he when he ran for president in 1988. I was living in Colorado and became is Colorado State Harriman and after he won that election.

03:49 He had said when he came to Colorado Colorado was one of the states that was really on the cusp in terms of which way would go in that election. And so Dukakis in men Bush both campaign very hard in Colorado. So he was there a good bit and when he would come to Colorado this happened two or three times, he would said after the election. I want you to come to Washington and it used to scare me to death because I thought he was might well lose Colorado to make it was not be president and it would not be trip to Washington.

04:20 But after he was elected in the transition, I came to Washington to talk about joining the administration and and a very old friend of President. Bush's said, you know, what you really ought to do is to find out more about the president's interest in starting a new office in the White House and focused on service.

04:45 And he had made a speech in San Francisco in October at The Comstock Club. I think about service and about creating a youth engaged in service institution or Foundation, but they're not been a lot a lot of additional talk about it. It was an attractive idea to come to the White House to do that. I quit a little bit like the Venture Capital business. We're in in that in the private sector you're you have to justify the work by the return on investment of of money, but here was an opportunity. I thought to join a new office and really create value that would justify more and more presidential attention. And I knew that he believed very strongly in the value of a voluntary service.

05:45 So he indicated I had some interest in that area and he quickly said that he hoped that I would do that. So I moved to Washington to be really the first and it was the only structural change. He made in the in the White House was to create this office. So that's how it started which is fantastic experience that I think all of us had with your office is that you were able to approach it in a way that works across party lines. I mean, I was I was a Democrat and and yet I always felt it from the moment that I had that first meeting and then as we work together later on that you were more interested in the outcome as opposed to well. I can't work with her because she's not going to help me with the future elections. How did that come about George Bush?

06:45 The first President Bush he had a and I think part of this was generational. I mean, he was the same generation of my father and these were men who had been through first the depression and they'd seen how utterly destroyed the family's Economic Security could be having nothing to do with their political party. They're their background then they experience a war. They saw people working together irrespective of values or ideology or or politics. And I think that generation really did have an have experiences in life which made party affiliation relatively unimportant compared to what really mattered to two people's lives. And of course, we've lost a lot of that now maybe we'll have a chance to talk about so President Bush never saw the

07:45 Active engaging and helping somebody be something that was anything other than a human reaction. Just the other day. Somebody reminded me that in his first inaugural actually Jon Meacham who's just coming out with a book on President Bush. He was out of interface service the other night that I attended and he said that the beginning of President Bush's inaugural he has a prayer that he wrote which said something to the effect that

08:20 Keepass mindful that we're not here about power we're here for people and I think people really was the was the him that the core issue was what are people's needs. That's what what is the need of a party or was the need of government or what's the need of an institution? And so I think he had that that view and then just to prove this in a way one of the things that that we began to do from the White House, as you know is to name an individual everyday who was called a point of light and this started some months after he was in office and he named 1020 people over the course of his presidency in name. The last point of light went the day he left office and there was a selection process for those individuals.

09:12 And the one thing which we simply would not tolerate was any consideration of party affiliation or politics of any kind and actually there been lots of different several studies done in hindsight by PhD students since the presidency to try to see was there some pattern was there some ulterior motive and there simply wasn't in all the data shown that it actually probably more of the people named were we're probably Democrats and Republicans, but I think part of the the way forward in the subject which I hope will talk more about is to recognize that we need to share a common objective that this work is about people not about a philosophy not about different roles of Institutions that we have to start with this being about people who need help and people

10:12 Want to serve and realize there many pies up that mountain and that we need to be working on all those pass Springs to mind a story that I actually I want to share with you which would not have happened without your office and the way you went about it and and just as a little aside I became had of the commissioner National community service which was set up under the Bush Administration to help develop some new ideas for a community service and how we might do on a national level and early on. I just been there like a few months. I got a call from your office at the White House saying could I go up right away and meet with Senator Dole because Senator doll had an idea of something he wanted to do and as we all know Senator Dole was someone who would

11:12 Generation food fought in the War and Becky had also been someone who had lived through the depression and understood stood the importance of the CCC and he had this Vision that you know, we could be at a point now where we could create something like that again for young people because there was a lot of people who are wanted to work and wanted to do something good for the country. So we had this idea and I got called go up to this meeting until I walk in the meeting and I walked in and there were six senators in the room and me no staff and it was better doll Kennedy a boring. Michalski Harris Wofford and they all say well we had this idea and we want to do it. I can you figure out how to do it. And so for the next two hours we sat and we talked and we shot it down what the legislation might look like and that became the idea for what is now a problem.

12:12 Call the we called the end Triple C the national Civilian Conservation Corps, which Used military bases that were being decommissioned as places where the young people could live made us election so that we would have people from very different backgrounds because that's one of the things that I think the people that generation understood that being in the armed services. If you were with people from a very different class or race in yourself, you got to understand and work with them and we had retired military people of the first person was a general who was just retiring to run it and the program is still going on and is fantastic and actually just has to decide my next door neighbor in California their son went through it and he talks about it as the best program of this life and I think about that and think that wouldn't have happened. Can you imagine that happening today? We're senators from different parties would sit around and themselves talk about something and develop it and I look,

13:12 What happened? And that would not have happened without you and the office having been there to make the phone call to me to sort go up and try to help them out or just naming the people who were in the room and I mean different parties different different perspective, but they share this comment excitement about about an idea. I think when when the commission was created that was really Advanced by a number of Senators including Senator Kennedy who was really in the Forefront of the of the work and one of the things that always there are several things about Senator Kennedy, which were intriguing to me one was he and President Bush had a very respectful relationship, even though again, they came from very different parties and just have kind of proved that if you fast-forward to five or six maybe years ago,

14:12 President Bush has an award that that's giving out on public service and he gave it to Senator Kennedy and Hunter Kennedy came down to Texas to receive it. I'm sure many of the people who are old political allies of President Bush wondered what what in the world are you doing? And I was great respect for for one another and then a year or two ago. The Profiles in Courage award was given by the Kennedy Library to President Bush. So I think these are the kinds of things which are symbols of a level of respect for their commitment to the nation to public service to and not suspicion about motives. And I think it's a really instructive.

15:03 Way for us to think about how leaders need to remind others of us why they value appears the way they do so interesting not suspicious of motives, but focusing and on what you really want to accomplish and why and as I think back to the meeting I had said her dog could speak very personally from both his military experience and his experience of being in the depression and how important it was to have good work and feel as if you are making a difference and those became the values that everybody could relate to this very important line of

15:47 Of reasoning about how we move Beyond partisanship because if you look at the meeting you attended or my story about Senator Kennedy and President Bush, I think in in both cases the individuals look a folder above the partisanship they look at what what are we what do we share here that we're trying to accomplish and the partisanship that lends the politics the ideology is really not even in the room it in these these kinds of of discussions and I feel like we as a as a country need to find ways to refocus on what is the unit were trying to advance and it's really people's well-being not not a philosophy not a role for government not and I think Catherine about the first

16:47 Leave the founding board members come and maybe you could talk a little bit about my bike.

16:58 First of all, just the background was that was the decision was made and it was a law that they were going to set up a commission on National community service with the goal of both having some model programs. She also fun some programs to see what might work but also to step back and think of what could happen to the next stage. So that was sort of how it was set up. But what happened it was a genius was honestly was how your office then decided we're going to have a group of people who really understand this in a very distinct way and a very diverse and so you had some politicians including I'll never forget Governor Romney George Romney fool was quite incredible person and definitely understood the importance of working a bipartisan way and you had other Senators, but you had people also would work that the

17:58 Grassroots level two had a woman who was a point of light from San Antonio, you've had people who had run programs at the college level at you had Senator Kennedy's main Staff Force in Shirley tsugawa. So you are able to put together a group of 35 people. I believe it was who came from all walks of life and I'll never forget going and sitting in those board meetings. One of the things we did early on was to have everybody have 2 minutes to go around and say what did they think the most important saying that we could do or how could we think about service in the long run and those views were so important in terms of everything? I remember Alan khazei saying we need to create new institutions and other people said we need to help people the local level have ways of participating that became the

18:58 Basis for how we did all the work at the commission and the whole approach and it so people today should realise that programs like Teach for America City or all of these programs came out of that approach of saying what can we do to help make it possible so that more people can get involved and more people can can contribute and make a difference in the world.

19:24 I think again, I think this is such an important point about short of postpartum partisanship because you're right. There was a there's a bit of tug-of-war in the negotiating about the commission is to who who who would appoint these these Commissioners these these board members and Senator Kennedy's office wanted to have the senate or the Congress recommender appoint half of the members of the commission and the White House would appoint the other half and the president threatened to veto because of the separation of powers and the notion that the President appoints and the Senate confirms. And so again, if you know, you know that never became a

20:18 A deal-killer because there was trust that the president would appoint people who the Senate would them confirm or not, but that they would be people that were worthy of this. And so this legislation was structured that way and you're right that a lot of care was went into not whisper 0 interest on what what the partisanship is a bit of an individual member or whether they had this philosophy or that instead. We really looked at it at Heaven among the leaders that the 21 or 30.

20:59 Experiences that represented the the the highest and best examples of thinking about service in America. So you're right. There was a Catholic University president secular University president of the former head of the Girl Scouts. Allen was head of City year corporate Foundation leader real thought leader Less lincowski in the Hudson Hudson Institute a former Marine, you know McCloskey a youth leader Evangelical African-American priest, someone who done work in in inner-city America on on creating Enterprise owns. It was really people who'd worked in in with young people of different ages and service and so it represented when you interested in that.

21:59 Early beating your mentioning where people went around the room and no respecting that each person at the table had a set of experiences and beliefs about the value of this larger effort that needed to be heard and needed to be accommodated in how the commission would go forward. So I think it was a it was really again if you if you back up and think what does this say about the current Euro the question wasn't you know, what's your philosophy of government or what's your what do you think the role of the Federal? It was not it was what do you believe matters most in people engaging in in helping one another and out of that then came programs in an absolutely and we had as a chair Pete McCloskey a former Congressman Republican who had been a marine and that was an experience for me working with him.

22:59 But one of the wonderful things that he brought to the table was the idea that we should hear from people at the Grassroots level also, so we had hearings probably every two months around the country. We had people coming and saying this is what we think it happened with people from Arkansas weed people out from Kansas all over the country saying we're trying to think about service and this is what we're doing and here's what we think that you should do going forward. And that was also a way of opening it up so that we got the best ideas that came from the field so that I always look at this movement of what's happened with natural Service as having come both from the start of entrepreneurial Spirit at the field, which is where I came from originally with the program. So I develop at Stanford and Cal and in California and very thoughtful people at the national level who realize that we needed some structure and it was

23:59 Coming together in these are melting of those two that made it happen. I think that's the challenge going forward. Is that keeping that balance where there's equal respect for individuals at the Grassroots level who are voluntarily developing a program they care about and those at the national level who want to see ways to create infrastructure and supporting mechanisms. And actually that ecosystem doesn't work. If both pieces aren't equally engaged what's happened to some degree now with we have the corporation for national service and the funding that comes and there's certainly I've of strong believer that America would allow the program to a lot of good things but the balance is out of it. It's it's not working together and the way that it needs to this not quite up the creativity from the national level of

24:59 Local level. It's more. Like are we going to get the money to help support it and that is something that I think you're absolutely right to have to sort of figure out a way to sort of have that balance. I think I think this is at the heart actually what you're saying of the challenge going forward because what's happening in America now at the at the political level is there's a kind of a calcifying that setting in with sides defining their responsibility really around things like the role of government or money instead of

25:37 You going back to Senator Kennedy for exactly one of the things about his Spirit on this was he had almost an equal love for the young people who are starting their own little projects in their community on what President Bush would call Points of Light all the way up to larger systems that it's supported and you know, if you were to talk to Senator Kennedy or probably Bob Dole work for George Bush they would they would understand this balance instinctively that but now I think because the lens through which a lot of debate is carried on we don't really have people actually talking about this is really about people that there are there are many paths up the mountain. We need to be have people in each of these past summer pure volunteering summer volunteering with a little bit of help or technical assistance summer.

26:37 An end that absence that void of people speaking about this subject in a in a way that reflects the kinds of backgrounds and personalities and respect that were reflected around the table of the commissioned by not by not approaching it with that mindset. It leaves the debate too much more in a partisan concerned about you know, what is the role of money in this and that's critical money is critical the role of the Federal Government is very very important, but that's getting that's getting into this.

27:16 Kind of debate which I think would would work out better. If we went back to the the kinds of attitudes that existed in the room. You went to that Senator Dole invited you into or the perspective of Senator Kennedy or the perspective of the first President Bush and I agree with you. Totally. The other thing I'm reminded of the meeting was centered or dull was the importance of military service and having talked to so many people who went through military service with when there was a giraffe. This is during World War 2 is supposed to Vietnam the experiences that they had and both learning how to work with people who are very different than they were as well as having a real focus on a very specific outcome and I had you don't I had that dream that then we might be able to do that with national service in terms of creating more.

28:16 Ways of people from very different backgrounds of working together and I remember one point thinking well, maybe we should have the draft come back as a way of even on a lottery basis and giving people a choice of military service or domestic service. Although I know that that has not been a popular idea. But what do you think of of how does one approach this so that it's open to more people and encourage what people to do it, I think through the

28:49 The challenge in the country now having people know one another and personally from different backgrounds is an acute challenge. We've got more isolation by ZIP code and bye-bye economics, then probably we've had in many many years and it's a very threatening problem to the country. We have got to find ways for people to to come to know by name people who were very different than themselves. And this is the one of the great roles to military historically. So I think a big part of America's future needs to be around. How do we have strategies to cause people to experience and work with one another even though they're very different and I think a piece of that it should be greater funding of national service that causes this to to to happen because it's well-known now that was 1% or so of the country is involved in fighting these wars.

29:49 It is it's it's not sustainable in terms of of of of how the country is is structured having said that I think we also should set out as an objective for for almost any organization whether or not they have federal or state funding to have is an objective working with strangers working with people who are different than you so that that that result is something that becomes an expectation of almost any organization is that they have a strategy that involves finding people who are different than they are and working successfully with him because even if we were to double or triple or quadruple, the federal money that are go into National service. This is such a large country with 300 and some odd million people that we've got to find ways for people's behavior.

30:49 Due to in an even Pockets that aren't connected to a formal national service feel like they need to explain to their own boards. They need to explain to their own constituencies how they are working across all kinds of divides in advancing their own strategies.

31:08 Why I agree with that and I also know that you will agree. There are so many problems out there where we now know that the service approach can work whether it's the schools or whether it's working on environmental issues. And so it just seems like as if it's a logical think some of these things aren't logical but that we've we've got the problems out there and we know there's some solutions and we know that actually one of the solutions is going to actually help the country in a way that's a fundamentally important way. And so how do we get the will to do that? And I often think about

31:52 You know the challenge of kind of proportionality. How do we how do we release the level of energy human capital energy that matches the the scale of the problem and whatever you look in education at Job Readiness. We have got to find ways that more people can serve one another to help them learn to read to get ready for the job market to find a better future for themselves. And you know, I think national service is needs to be seen as the larger strategic building block in this, you know in this Africa and most people that I know who I'm have a lot of friends who are involved in this but many people who are not involved in this to the don't understand that all the eyes glaze over national service. I mean if they think of any kind of service I'll think of the military services like, okay, I understand military.

32:52 Service, but and they might understand Peace Corps and they might understand Vista or Americorps to some degree. But I think in terms of the level that you're talking about, it's not it's not something that's made it into the understanding of the average person get into this kind of false notion that people who are volunteering in the local community or our community service as opposed to National service when in fact they are helping to serve the nation. I used to talk about this with with friends and colleagues back. When I was in the White House that that what we need attention on national service with a capital in a capital S. We need to have people begin to see their roles as part of national service with a small engine in a small last if they're serving the nation by advancing their their own organizations benefits.

33:52 We just also need to find a more muscular role for government to support some of these projects and some of the technical assistance second grade scale so that I think what you're saying is that people are out there working on habitat for humanities or out their tutoring someone in a school. Those are people that are actually as you say or helping then the nation do better and they're part of national service. And so there has to be a way to sort of both recognize them reward them. Even if it's just you don't know that not even money, but just some kind of reward so that they realize they're part of that. It's magically everyone who's in who's in a service role as a volunteer as a as a core member were to think of themselves as as part of the same.

34:53 National service movement small and small ass and if that could become more of the way in which we think about one another and the shared aspirations we have for our country and for our citizens and then on top of that there was an effort to for larger national service programs that help support some of those efforts in as well as as new efforts. I think it might lead to more people seeing that they have a vested interest in a more traditional national service idea that's been growing for 25 years because they actually are part of that in a different in a slightly different way. Where's I think right now we we spend a lot of time is strictly talking about national service as a distinct piece of work and that that's leaving people thinking they're not part of that. And therefore we don't have the political will behind the ID.

35:52 I think that's brilliant. I absolutely agree with that. And the other idea want to throw out is the whole idea of having this also be a way of helping more people to be able to go to college. I worked for a while with a general who had been in charge of the ROTC program which ROTC I've worked a lot with save the children in poor parts of the US and for many of those kids that was the only way to go to college was through the ROTC and I think that if we could have War of the funding for college be tied into service whether it's locally or nationally or internationally, that would be a good thing too and would be another way of sort of encouraging more people to understand that they're tied into our helping make our country a better place.

36:52 And it's a two-front investment. It's an investment in in young people's work to help the country. They're investing their time to build the country and the countries investing in them for their education so that they'll be more effective leaders in the future. And I think that investment mentality is another piece that's missing in the in the discussions about this that we need huge investments in human capital in this country and the service movement is a big part of how that's got to happen.

37:23 Ideas, so great. I wish you could be in charge of the of this again. I would love to work with you. I know it. I think we can change the world seeing people who are so gifted in in this working and being with you Catherine. I feel the same way.

37:45 Here's another in fact, I'm going to be introducing you later and say none of this would have been possible without you personally. Thank you.