Chris Qualls and Julie Stepp

00:04 I am Julie stepp and I'm 51 years old today is April 12th, 2019 and we are in Cookeville, Tennessee and my relationship to Chris is that I'm his friend.

00:16 My name is Chris Qualls. I am 45 again. Today's date is April 12th, 2019. We are in Cookeville, Tennessee and Julie as you said is my friend.

00:31 So it's kind of a unique experience to be a professor with graduate students because I found that some great friends have started as students. So that's kind of how our relationship started. What was that kind of like for you to be in my class for the first time?

00:54 That may have been the first semester that the end in that particular program for me and so quite different obviously, you know my background history in an English and now doing education thing. I was teaching at the community college.

01:17 And

01:19 Teaching a dual enrollment class, you know and so they're this the class that you were teaching was more geared towards secondary. So teachers teaching teachers how to teach secondary students high school students or univ junior high students.

01:41 It was really interesting cuz I started to think about things that I had not thought about the the how do you apply eye.

01:55 These teaching methods

01:57 In college should you teach these teaching methods in college and I ultimately decided. Yes, you absolutely should for the record that you taught. It was a young adult literature class. So yeah and graphic novels things like that, you know.

02:22 Yeah, you can use children's books young adult novels graphic novels things like that in higher ed. Absolutely. So that's what was going through my mind. It was kind of an exciting time and I was trying to walk Between Two Worlds have you know of learning how to teach secondary?

02:43 And actually teaching

02:46 Secondary age students but at a college level and you kind of started incorporating some young adult lit into your teaching as well. And that that was kind of a think we continued our conversations after we were finished with that course. So you grew up in Cookeville in this in this area. Is that correct? I went to was born here went to high school here. Then I moved away first Memphis to New York and Boston.

03:26 Dim back to Nashville then back to Cookeville way of going to these larger towns to come back to this smaller place what Drew you decide to come back to this area. It wasn't credibly difficult to live in New York. But I mean I lived in New York and I was six blocks from Madison Square Garden and

03:54 Yeah, I remember one day I was trying to mail a letter and it took me all day to find a mailbox just to drop off this letter and I thought you know, you may have to get in your car and drive 10 miles in the South to the post office. But you know where it is, you know that you're going to be able to deposit now, that's not to say that I didn't love living in New York, but New York will you up and

04:21 Boston just honestly, I love Boston. I like Boston. I always refer to it as New York light. Hope I don't offend my Boston friends and by that, I mean it is a lot easier to get around in Boston. It is a lot easier to do things in Boston, but I walk I was walking to work one day. I just lived one square over. I was working in Harvard Square and a theater and lived in Cambridge know it was well out of one square / Central Central Square and I walked at work and it was negative 32 that day and I thought you know, I have a grandfather who was sick and my father at the time was sick. I thought that said good reason to this in the 32 degree weather is good reason to move.

05:21 To Tennessee. So I feel myself back in Tennessee went to it. Like I said went to Nashville manager theater for a while and then I was called into my regional managers office and he said hey are you from Cookeville? I said, yeah.

05:40 Is it hey, I'm going to send you the clothes The Varsity, which was that lovely little theater in town at to Spring theater. So I went in and I got to close an institution, you know, so then I just know actually it's funny while I was in Cookeville. I thought I'm going back to school. I originally I went to Memphis at 4.

06:07 College and university of Memphis is what you were looking at, but

06:22 Yeah, so I left I did not get a degree from Memphis State. I think my GPA coming out of Memphis State was like a 1.13 there was a semester. I did not even set foot on campus. I lived on campus still did not set foot on campus now. So I wish I had you know could say a hard-partying but no I just lazy and so you came back to Cookeville. You said you you were you knew you were going to go back to school and you started working at test, right it hired by the police department. And one of the benefits of working for Tech was that you could take at the time up to 10 hours for free with you know, that the copy out with that is

07:22 If you fail the classes you had to pay the money back, right but you know, if you were successful in those classes then yeah, so I use that to get a bachelor's degree and master's degree. And I think that's a great way. That's how I learned part of my Master's and then my PhD was was working for the University. It is kind of a strange relationship. But but what a great thing for them to do is to encourage their people to to get more education, right Hemi. They are in Education Institute. It looks it looks also yes, it does happen. It looks good for their numbers both and having people enrolled and to say oh, you know like 60% of our staff.

08:20 Have degrees exactly I don't know who that sounds good too. But I'm sure there's someone somebody it does it does. So at you said you're when you came back that you had a sick father and a grandfather. Did you help with some of their care then or did was it just more of a Compassion or companion type of

08:48 Yeah, pretty much. My my grandfather went into a nursing home.

08:57 And he had a what was it called? It was it I wish I was a fascinating. It was a basal ganglionic deterioration. And yeah, I mean I'd like the way it sounds but it was terrible terrible ordeal. It basically is you know how the synapses are set up and the information jumps from one. Well his the synapse he's were dying off for the ganglion or whatever. And so the information would try to make the leap and just

09:33 Go off into space and so so the nerves it was affecting his it was okay different I think how old was he when he went into the nursing home? Do you know that's a good question a little resentful over him going in the nursing home because he opted to have a surgery and I he was in his 80s at the time maybe or maybe 80, you know earlier but his doctor talked him into having a surgery that

10:13 Would have saved him money on prescriptions.

10:19 Now, I don't know the ethics of a doctor talking an 80 year old man into having the surgery, but he never got out of bed after that surgery and you know, he went to the nursing home and that's where we watched him. That's the way I felt like he was going there to die, or did he absolutely

10:47 That would be really hard to watch.

10:51 A family member just you know that they are giving up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know and I mean he would say things that make sure you close the door and he didn't mean the door to his room. He thought he was home quite often, you know, he would make these comments that

11:16 That didn't make sense until he provided some contacts near like oh, well, he thinks that it's Christmas is not Christmas. So yeah, it was difficult. I was in the room, you know, when he passed and chest tube that one final heave and then that was it. Alright.

11:40 Yeah, that stays with you goes a visual just forever. Yeah, absolutely. What about your dad?

11:53 Not really close to my father. I I knew that he had I think he had stomach cancer and so he had the operation and everything and I kept up with him through family, but I did not really have a whole lot of interaction with him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My mom said yeah, yeah.

12:22 So when you moved back to cook field, did you live close to your family your mom and therefore that part of your family or actually at the time my mother at their house was really near the university and I moved into a set of apartments near the university. And so yeah, I was super close and I worked at the University. So, you know, yeah, I was constantly going over and visiting her and and what not just a pretty healthy and tell incredibly healthy. Yeah. She did not start taking any kind of medication like high blood pressure medication nothing like that till she was

13:10 Say 80 in a fascinating.

13:21 She is she still with us. She is still around but she is also she is not in a nursing home. She is in. I guess maybe an assisted-living type Arrangement. Yeah, we're but it caters to people with dementia person that we had in a we had the it happens in families the normal incidence where

13:55 Like where did you go today? And she can no longer recall way or people or right lol, you know, I saw your your grandmother your mother whatever and she was having trouble remembering where home was so that definitely becomes a problem. You know, when we had the conversation. All right, I have to take your keys and but it came to

14:24 You know the worst case scenario when we got a call from the sheriff's office. She had gotten out she had left her home Zhang. Now it makes it sound like she escaped but in any way, you know, she kind of

14:41 She had left her house and it was a cold evening and she was just shoot like in her pajamas and she was wandering around the neighborhood looking for her home, but she wasn't looking for the home that she lived in.

14:59 Oh, she's looking up a childhood home and that's when suddenly it hit we can no longer leave her alone. Yeah her safety with you. Well, so so I take it your mom was part of that decision as well to to kind of put her there. Oh, yeah, my mother works for Adult Protective Services also, so she's kind of in that system. You know, right then filleti's available. I think yeah. Yeah.

15:41 That that seems knowing even that that someone needs to be in the end on a facility of that sort that it's seems like it's still has to be such a hard decision incredible. Yeah finally make

15:58 We

16:01 We stayed with her. We took turns staying with her and then we found a home and by home. I mean literally someone's home. They had built on an extra room and they took in people who you know seniors elderly and we decided to put her in this home.

16:27 You know because it was a family staying there and we thought it would be a great environment, but

16:33 Wow, which is worse, you know.

16:38 Dropping someone off at a nursing home and saying I'll be back. I'll visit or dropping someone off with another family and they're already confused and you visit them and you know that they're no longer sure what's going on there. And who is this family that I'm with? Who are you? You know that that's that's tough. It's tough on the family dropped this love one off.

17:13 I almost abandoned, you know and in that may just be my since sense of it. I get that. I mean it seems like almost feel like are they did she see them as a replacement family? Absolutely because you know once a week maybe do this another thing it was in

17:43 It was down the road a ways and so it usually wasn't once a week. Yeah, you know, usually one person from the family would visitor a week but not everybody would visitor just because it was a 45 minutes, you know, so I can an hour and a half round trip.

18:05 Fortunately, no, I mean she is closed now she is in town now so you can visit her and they have routines kind of setup for her. Now that kind of helps her a little bit. I guess she's in her 90s. So you've had these experiences with your own family and you had your own experience. So will you will you start and kind of talk about some of the health issues that?

18:38 LED you to this experience with the nursing home? Yeah, so

18:44 You know staying on the topic the nursing homes, let's talk about something that I am unfortunately intimately familiar with and that is rural nursing homes. So

18:59 You know what, whatever you want to say the process of.

19:06 However, it happened whatever happened. I

19:11 Reached

19:13 Will say it definitely probably close to 700 lb I I weighed at one point.

19:23 And so I forgot 8 months. I sat in the room of my apartment really didn't leave didn't even go in like the kitchen or the living room because you know at that muscles start to atrophy and they're already weakened and everything. So finally I my health deteriorated to the point where a friend who's a nurse and my mother conspired against me thankfully and they just got the ambulance there and they took me to the hospital and I stayed in the hospital for two weeks while they tried to find some place for me.

20:04 And

20:07 It here in Cookeville. We're not you know.

20:13 Large city by any means. However, it's large enough where the nursing homes in this location can be exclusive.

20:26 They don't need to hear you. Now. We don't need well, they don't need to take certain insurances at the time. I had Medicare Medicaid and so

20:40 A couple fell through again, you know because my weight

20:44 Nursing homes, right? We're not at all. You know we are not set up to accommodate someone, you know with this situation. And so I found myself in a nursing home.

21:00 Pretty far away from Cookeville still in Tennessee, but close to the border of, Kentucky.

21:09 And Rural very rule the estimated population.

21:16 About 1,600 and that's pushing it and we're looking at what 32000 and Cookeville. So, I mean, it's an extreme when you just lived in cook fill in the city of Industry.

21:31 And so I spent eight months there in that nursing home. You know, my goal was to lose enough weight to have the gastric sleeve surgery, but I had to be under a certain weight because the hospital Cookeville was not set up. I don't think they were actually set up to handle 500 lb, but that was the extreme weight that the doctor was willing right to push things too, you know acceptable terms and so

22:11 Yeah, yeah.

22:13 Wow, cell 8 months

22:17 And you were a distance away. Did you have family that was able to come and see you very often maybe every other week.

22:29 You know somebody would visit.

22:34 But really I mean it gets to the point where you don't even want. I didn't you know, you going to come for 30 minutes or we going to talk about, you know, just

22:47 I'm fine in a phone call if you want an egg. And you know that may have been turned that self-destructive self-pitying Behavior, right? Yo, what's up with don't even don't even because you're only thinking like yourself, you know that people may find it cathartic to visit you but I was out at the time is it hard to consider other people on his Little Italy when you were in that situation, so yeah.

23:19 How do you think the facility people helped you?

23:24 With that kind of Disconnect from your family

23:31 Well, I don't want to be negative. There is a quite a bit of bitterness still over that it again, one of the problems with rural Healthcare. I think we just saw it recently one of the

23:50 Hospitals in Clay County closed so now our trip perhaps the closest hospital but one of the problems with rural communities and any sort of Healthcare in them is Staffing.

24:09 Where's the staff supposed to show up? I I know that people would get in trouble. The CNAs the certified nursing assistants would get in trouble for something. They would be fired.

24:22 And then two months later, they would be rehired and it's interesting you talk about CNAs because I'm 17 year old daughter who could graduate high school with a CNA certificate and at a 18 years old. She's not going to be emotionally capable to help someone and it means you're talking about someone that has little to no schooling to help with this idea of mental and physical health. No.

25:01 Mental

25:02 I do remember actually, I don't know what his official official Army designation was what you know, whether he's a psychiatrist or psychologist whatever but his purpose was to I guess.

25:21 Determine the the Acumen the you know, if you would facilitate ease where where you were and but he would come in and would ask question what you would say. Okay. I'm going to say 5 words and then repeat them back to me if you were.

25:44 Going into some sort of dementia State versus yeah versus your perfectly, you know mentally able able and

26:04 He gives me the same test and even makes the comment like wow, he's you've you've done better than anyone else.

26:14 Thanks, you know I I would hope so I would hope so not taking away anything from any of these people that I shared this home with but you know, just the state of the healthcare is you don't find yourself in a nursing home.

26:33 Unless you are.

26:36 In an advanced state it seems like right when I was younger. We would go to nursing homes that you know to play music or to talk and it seemed like the the people were like maybe you know their spouse has passed away and they just no longer we're living in the community. Well, no one will living in their neighborhood. Let's put it that way, but they're still part of a community in a nursing home. They were able to carry on conversations and unfortunately,

27:09 It just seems like some of these real nursing homes are just dumping grounds. Seriously. We had people that were violent there and the the

27:25 All that they could do was

27:29 Continuously send them to be evaluated.

27:32 Do what was called the geropsych geriatric psychiatric unit.

27:41 Yeah, and so, you know, and of course the staff is fine with that that overmedication are no longer a threat. Did you have some say over your medication? Absolutely, I mean to a degree but

28:02 The nursing home is no place for somebody who is that age and you know trying to rehabilitate that that's what I was doing there because you I thought it was really interesting, you know, some of the stuff that that goes on there that

28:21 As far as I know unless you are declared mentally incapable incapable. I should say you still have all your rights, but

28:34 When somebody has absolute control over you your bedridden you really don't have those rights you have whatever rights they want you to have so I just have flashes.

28:47 One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest absolutely that that prospective it it definitely, you know made me think of the times visiting my grandfather. I've seen all the lights that were on. These are the people in the rooms the patient's they're pushing their buttons and just all of these lights on and she's nowhere near enough staff to accommodate in and take care of, you know, if you need to use the restroom because you're bedridden in your waiting 30 45 minutes.

29:19 Yeah, how cruel is that? Absolutely, it is unbelievable. I mean, it seems like they must have been even short-staffed not only understood fully staffed. But because there was a situation you were having to rehire someone that you fired now and you're pulling from a community. That is so small. I mean, how do you pull employees into well, and also I mean when you were paying them so little yes that you know, I I make the joke, but it is it's it's not really a joke and someone actually said this to me that they would make more if they went and worked at Arby's but Arby's the closest Arby's is like 30 minutes, you know, the large city. I'm using are close to the largest city closest to them 20 minutes away. Yeah, but they could make more go into Arby's that's sad.

30:19 Taking care of the elderly human beings human beings absolutely the infirm, you know people who need help can't take care of themselves and barely making minimum wage and it's backbreaking literally back-breaking.

30:36 You know work and it's got to be emotionally mentally.

30:45 Fatiguing is well. Yes.

30:48 It is that or you know, maybe you're able just to shut that down.

30:55 Do you know we're both in education. We both have seen these issues of of teachers feeling the same way of.

31:03 Of not being recognized for their worth of taking care of human beings and you know their own way. It's a lot less physical but it's still that kind of emotion. Why do you think we are in this place where we can't seem to recognize the the service that Educators that Health Providers are putting out there for other human beings. That's good question not flashy Enough cast.

31:37 It does seem like they're hard.

31:42 Our interests are money is going to superficial things. You know, where all are you on musk and right home and if only we could have an electric car only we could you know do this but then the question of public school teachers pay comes up and buy wool. You got to shut that down but

32:19 Then we'd be sad especially because multiple colors and we get to choose if we want the light blue or Coral. I think they make sleeves. But yeah, it is a question of

32:34 Would you would you rather you know, it'll say you fire up your YouTube would you rather watch?

32:44 And makeup video or would you rather watch somebody talking about? Well, it may be skewed for us. Would you rather talk to watch somebody talking about, you know, something educational something. I don't know makerspaces unite if if I told you that I was going to take a bunch of lipstick edible lipstick and melt it down and make a cake out of it or we can talk about Maslow's hierarchy of human needs. Which would you rather watch exactly? I'm watching that lipstick is to value.

33:36 Well, it's also seems to be human nature to.

33:41 Do things that are against our best interests sometimes? Yeah. Yeah, and we talked some about how people tend to focus on the negative and and you apologized even a little bit of minute ago about you don't want to sound negative about what I'm talking about. But I mean it it's out there but you said something the other day, you know, if we have these moments of positivity or or something, you know that goes really these aha moments that we have occasionally. What if we have one of those a day? Yeah to remember I remember that conversation we were talking about how it's human nature to remember the bad things about kvetching. So we were talking about complaining too much but it's human nature. It's a survival Instinct to remember the bad things instead of the good things because you know if our ancestor

34:41 The first time they touch that

34:44 Whatever and it poisoned them. Well if they lived in next time maybe they wouldn't touch poisonous things and said they would complain about it to warn others, but it was a beautiful sunrise. They don't mention that so well in Dino with that that idea to U of M. What is it? If you if you have a bad experience service experience, you tell 11 people and if you have a positive you tell three people or something like that and look at it, and I know that you you and I have that kind of same mindset that you wanting to push out more of that positivity to do to the world. Do you wonder if if there were more positive experiences more positive little pieces that people could talk about with health care if we send more of you no, thank you for take

35:44 Jeremy today would that change how the people that are working there? And with that changed their mindset or work to helping them to give better care couldn't couldn't hurt. It may not help especially so one of the most depressing things.

36:05 There's a woman in in one of the rooms and I inquired about her because room is always dark never came out. She was bedridden and on a feeding tube. So, you know, her body was going through function functioning, but you not spoken in years and they told me that this woman had been at that facility for 12 years.

36:34 It's hard to find a positive, you know in that.

36:41 That someone would live in one of those one of those facilities for 12 years 2 years is pushing it. But yeah.

36:55 8 months is pushing boxes. Definitely absolutely.

37:01 Yeah, it is. I feel like I I I I see it whenever you know, I'm at a at an Arby's in and get my food and I look at them in the eye. Thank you for this. Thank you for your you know serving me to something in a positive way that they're their whole being changes. And so I have been thinking about you know with teachers.

37:27 If we give them that more of those positive feedbacks, do they do a better job and I just I think it would be harder to think of that with the healthcare facilities because you could give some of that but they're still it's such hard work. Yeah. It's it's like you said physical work. Well, I mean the difference that I have encouraged and buy that encouragement they have

37:59 They've performed better because suddenly they wanted to perform better right know they had the attitude but you know, they did not have your why until suddenly someone told him. Oh, you know, you're doing a work, you know a level work. This is quality work. I am really appreciating enjoying it and they want to continue that but in healthcare I especially you know with the lowest grade that the CNAs what is

38:33 They're getting paid the same.

38:37 No matter what you do. I mean so the encouragement is nice, but there's no

38:46 You know where the student working towards that a is that you know that motivation their butt.

38:55 Health worker

38:57 Maybe this time either seen people deteriorate and die.

39:02 And as you said someone who's non-responsive or nonverbal who can't

39:08 Give that thank you for that looking good and everything feels great today kind of feedback to them. Right? So it's hard I guess for the the health care workers to give that to the people in the facility.

39:23 So what's the solution Chris to areas that I would like to see you more funding go into in Italy Healthcare and

39:38 The funding be used

39:43 Properly education higher ed secondary Ed

39:49 No healthcare. Yeah. Yeah, those are obviously close to us. Yeah, and it is interesting because we've talked a little bit about it being the rule areas that are that are losing mean you feel like we're not being heard as people in more rural areas. I mean why

40:15 When you hear you know, what's the reason that this rural hospital is closing money? Well.

40:25 I mean why wouldn't the state or you know Federal funding's be increased to keep it going if we can find the Airlines and keep them in the air. We can find the car companies and subsidize them making the you know, 2020 model.

40:51 But we're letting rural Healthcare. Yeah, I know. I mean that is a definite into towns in the areas so that they can get to the the resources that if they need maybe you healthcare's the first sign.

41:13 But if that were the case that people wouldn't be living this Roar. Is anyway

41:21 Now, that's true.

41:23 Do they stay there? Because they have families that are they are they have houses that have

41:36 What is more important giving up your house in your land and moving into an apartment so you can be closer to healthcare or?

41:46 I'll never get sick and worried if I do, you know, maybe the end of let's ride we can be there quick or maybe I'll just die. You know, maybe it'll be a grandfather that passed away in the nursing home my other grandfather. My father's father. He was splitting logs his heart exploded heart attack. Yeah widow-makers doing what he loved.

42:17 You know, yeah, it would like to think that that was the last thing you saw it, you know, it was his heart was giving out on him was his mules Josh my dad. I know he had hard time when his mom went into nursing home and and watching her deteriorate and then afterwards he and after she died. He started saying, you know, if I start to get that point just push me in front of a bus. Where's my mom would say don't push him in front of a bus like I would do that, but you hear that a lot cuz it would make but the the emotions of families that take their loved ones to nursing homes because obviously you know, what what happens when there were no nursing homes. Well,

43:11 I mean the family would take care of family, but we're living in a society an hour. Everyone has to work. There's no time, you know or facilities for the number of dementia patients is increased Alzheimer's has increased.

43:31 So yeah family can't take care of family, but they're still that we should be taken care of family and yet we are leaving loved ones.

43:42 2

43:44 Fend for themselves.

43:47 Is people you know if it's a parent who have

43:51 Raised us taking care of us. And now we abandon them again that maybe that's a lot of people feel that way. And I think that's you know, that guilt keeps people away. Also take your loved one to the nursing home.

44:10 You may want to go visit them but

44:14 It's depressing to go into smoothies nursing homes.

44:25 Maybe use it for them today. Yeah, yeah.

44:30 We got all over the place.

44:35 It's such a

44:38 It's such a scary Topic in some ways. But I'm glad you trusted me to come talk to you about this. I'm glad that you agreed to come talk to me about this why I said it's not something that you know, I just casually mention right I've talked about it with people before, you know to try to help them. If I don't know if it does help them but story helps. Yeah. Alright. Well, thanks for talking to me today.