Debbie Reynolds and Carole Geier
DescriptionOne Small Step conversation partners and friends Debbie Reynolds (61) and Carole Geier (76) talk about the following topics: their social and political beliefs, what it's like to be liberal/moderate in a conservative region, using humor to navigate family gatherings, upbringing, how they'd like to be remembered.
Subject Log / Time Code
- Debbie Reynolds
- Carole Geier
Recording LocationVirtual Recording
Venue / Recording Kit
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00:03 Establish parental. I am 61 years old. Today is August 16th 2021. I'm in Garden City, Kansas in my office at the office and the name of my conversation Partners Carole Geier, and she's a friend of mine here in Garden City.
00:31 Okay, so my next 16th 2021 and I'm at my house. My my conversation partner is Debbie Reynolds, and she's a friend. So happy we're going to just start off. This is the first of the four questions. So Debbie, why don't you start us off with what I put in the chat?
01:04 Carole, what made you want to do this interview today?
01:12 I was coerced by some really, really ugly. Wonderful friend.
01:18 Met Amanda and Deborah, but I'm, I'm getting more relaxed and comfortable about the whole thing because because of all of you, so this is good.
01:31 And Debbie. What made you want to do this interview today? Well, actually, I was on a non-profit, like a ketchup. It's like a week, they call the catch up, call for nonprofits, and the gentleman from hppr was talking about this project and low and behold. He said that my true friends are actually going to be doing the project and I wish to congratulate these cuz it sounded like really an interesting project. And of course, when I asked me, I said sure I'd love to do it.
02:10 So now, the second part is,
02:14 The second question Debbie. Why don't you go ahead?
02:19 I don't care what you grew up in Wichita. And the Seattle area is and always had an interest in politics through your mother just read it as it is. Okay, and I did not make that clear. So that's my mistake. I'm sorry.
02:40 I grew up in Wichita on the Seattle area and always had an interest in politics through my mother. I lean towards caring for and helping the underdog. Our son was born in 1971 and worked at a number of causes and nonprofits our son School.
02:56 Scouts are Church, Barre, City and Community organization. Always feeling the importance of giving back to the community. As an artist. I have worked for 20 years alongside mini Life by established an active Art Council in our city.
03:13 Debbie. Is there anything that you would like to know more about? You can ask her at this point?
03:25 From her bio.
03:27 Not at this time.
03:32 Okay, I'm reading Debbie's bio. I am a single 61 year old white woman who has never been married. I raised, I was raised by my Southern parents and was instilled earlier with the ideas of working hard. Being honest and always doing what was right and respectful. My grandparents Heritage was born in the Appalachian Mountains of Kentucky and Tennessee. I was raised to be fiercely independent and was the first person of my father's family to graduate from college. I am a world traveler who has been to 60 + countries and six continents.
04:10 And I'd we don't don't have time for me to ask you all the questions.
04:25 Blown Away by that.
04:28 Well, thank you.
04:32 Okay, I'm going to. So if there's, you could tell me about your travels and absolutely, I don't look forward to that. I love to for people with my traveling story.
05:07 Well, I was thinking, I already mentioned my mother, she was, but I often think back to this teacher that I had for history.
05:18 In my sophomore year in high school and he was we had to write all the time and about all kinds of American History end and he was the first one who really
05:39 Laid out the chart of the ism's, you know, from the far-right, to the far left and I've always remembered exactly how he put it in hell and it's still, it's still true today. I mean, it's not it hasn't changed in it. So that was I thought his name was mr. Keller.
06:01 As far as my I have so many but the person that jumped to my mind with my grandmother, on my dad's side. She was married at 13. She became a midwife for her coal, mining community, and she was just exceptional, as far as being a support to her community. And she lived in poverty was uneducated, traditionally, but she was really not the kind of the mayor of their community and she loved everybody. Everybody respected her even when I was a young kid and teenagers, even when I was in college, I would always seek her out for her wisdom and come to her house and I always thought to have somebody love you that much.
07:01 Community and I admire her about that. I feel so blessed to be mentored by her.
07:08 And that she was she with full story. She was a gifted Storyteller like nobody's business. She never owned a television because you called it. The devil's talkbox. The boys. She could tell a great story.
07:35 Carole recently described in your own words, read the question number four and respond to that.
07:45 Okay. Could you bring you want me to read it and then respond?
07:49 Or you want me to read it for Debbie?
08:01 Sure. I am, I am a registered Republican. I am probably the most unusual Republican. I do. Only a few others who are as liberal as I am in so many different areas, but I do feel like Mike or person is very conservative raised that way. My parents were that way. Actually, my parents were Democrats and being so upset, the first time I ever voted for a republican, but I really a traditional values and but there's times many, many times in the older, I get, I leave more and more to the left and I
08:46 It saddens me that both political parties have become so polarizing and there's very little stretch to there. There were believe where I feel like I've been all the way to the left and I came into the right but there's no bending in today's politics and see if it appears that way to me. And I think that that's very scary time for our country due to the fact that in life life is very great. And I think we need to learn how to bend. It will never get anything accomplished you for not going to bed somewhere shape or another.
09:26 I have all I want to say, I I have no Republican, but I've also voted for Democrat. And I had the Good Fortune of meeting Bill Clinton, and Jimmy Carter, and I just admire anybody who's in the Oval Office, and that's probably for my traditional upbringing.
09:55 Carole. Could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values.
10:02 Well, I vote I used to be a republican. It was because I believe that Dwight Eisenhower was president when I was in grade school.
10:18 Was, you know, such a great grand father figure for all of us kansans. And and I believe even now that it's his beliefs would be more.
10:30 More like a traditional Democrats as far as. But I decided that I did not want to be a long time, and my political views are actually fairly conservative, but my, my social and
10:54 My other kinds of yous are seriously.
11:05 Trying to reject here for just a moment. Debbie, you talked about so eloquently both of you.
11:13 Your Traditional Values from what the Appalachian wrote growing up. Can you give an example of those conservative Traditional Values that you grew up with?
11:26 Oh, I think that I want the one that came wrapped off my head was going to church every Sunday. That's what you did and you, no matter what you was in church, every Sunday and you gave 10% ties back to the church or actually back to God that you got up and you went to work every day and you were neighborly, you know, somebody needed help you were there to help him out. If you notice, especially if somebody was really suffering, you would invite him to your table or he would take food to them or bake him a cake or whatever. It was very early on. I learned that these are the things that you do. I still do these things today. So if they are part of me, you know, they are some of my experiences.
12:24 And I'm going to Harold you have any questions for for Debbie regarding?
12:33 Not really that. I thought she was very eloquent in her explanation of her, her upbringing.
12:47 Traditional Values that should.
12:50 Gleaned from her grandmother and her parents.
12:54 I have a question for Carol that you said, you didn't want to become a, you didn't want to be a republican anymore. And if you decide to be a wizard, one single, you could pinpoint. Like, you knew a defining moment that you were going to change your political party.
13:18 How to make?
13:22 That did it for me. I even voted for Nixon, but Ronald Reagan was
13:31 And that's kind of interesting because you say that, your, your economic beliefs is very conservative, and he was very conservative. Idiocy. I'm sorry. I told me that her grandfather, might Mike. My grandfather's, dad, John Rosie was the Democratic chairman of Rush County in in 19 and let my grandmother and grandfather were married in 1914. So it's in the very early 1900's on Rosie. My grandfather was the chair of the democratic party in Rush County and my other great-grandfather. Christian was the Republican chairperson of Rush County and they didn't.
14:31 Not all that new.
14:35 Debbie a little bit package for the other party. So,
14:44 Is it is it different being Republican in Western, Kansas?
14:53 I mean is it is are Republicans different.
14:57 I believe so, you know, I was raised in the Midwest and I've just finished off with Kansas 20 little over 20 years. But what I see here in southwest Kansas, people are they don't fit, you know, their beliefs or black and white There's No Gray. There believes. We're in the midwest. I see a lot more gray with people's political beliefs. They still may be a Republican or Democrat, but there's a lot more than what I see. As Republicans here in southwest, Kansas.
15:39 I can just say, I mean, I'm a totally Blown Away about how Republicans reacted to covid here in our County and that I just think that I don't get it. I truly do not get it or understand why they've taken a stand against mask and you know all these things and it is our only line of defense. I don't understand the staunch.
16:11 You know, debate over it or even against it. I don't understand that.
16:18 And it is in a, to happen in Ohio. I don't know. I don't even know how now but it really to me is quite surprising that they are that far against the even in the United States. I think it's kind of crazy how they have time Masters and anti-vaxxers have become, and I just really don't understand it.
16:42 I totally agree with you on that. I find I find in the difference in Republican and Democrat in Western Kansas. If you're a Democrat, it's still nasty. Don't tell, you don't tell anybody that you're a Democrat because you'll see you, maybe people don't want to know that your, that your business may be a Democrat business. And so you don't tell anyone you might lose business because of it and that I have found an N. I don't know. I found it to be.
17:14 Party stuff to be on the Republic of the beautiful, really hot highfalutin. So I think it's more, it's more like a political party, and I share your, your Horror in the fact that the Republicans seem to be anti-masker than anti-vaxxers and it just I I just can't believe it, not all of them.
18:00 Who are vaccinated then wear masks to sew?
18:11 You know what really kind of it's really a thorn in my side is that you see all these, I have friends who are anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers and we'll go someplace and it this is probably a month or so ago, and it said, if you're not, if you're vaccinated, you don't have to wear a mask.
18:34 Are they don't they're not they don't follow rules either because they just give people impression that they are wearing that they have been vaccinated and to me that's just so wrong. If you think you so believe in what you believe in, then don't hide behind it. And I just think it's wrong.
18:58 But I, I want to say that I am Republican. I've never been invited to a party Republican women luncheon, either, Carol, so don't feel bad.
19:11 They probably just think I'm just a, you know, I wear a costume or something. I don't know, cuz I hang out with a bunch of liberals all the time, the west side of town, which was the right type, the other white. Zip code west side. It was the wrong ZIP code, so I get that as well.
19:53 This is a place where we're at where you can choose some of these questions to ask your partner. However, I'm sorry that I spent it out in, like, narrative there supposed to be a separation between the questions. So, I'm sorry. I apologize.
20:19 You guys want to look at the questions and see which ones that you would like to ask each other?
20:38 Oh, yeah. Well, do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you up from the other side of the aisle? And how do you have a bat?
20:48 Manifest itself and make you feel.
20:53 I feel like I'm up a person with no Island Riptide or no, you know, that I'm not well, received by my Republican friends, because I think very liberal in so many different areas and then with my friends who are liberals, depending upon how they feel they are. They don't understand how I could be a Republican. And so I
21:22 Shy away from the conversation. A lot of times because there's no we're never going to meet in the middle, you know, they're never and I think a lot of times people just they don't want to know that they don't stay, stay stay. We're really good talkers, but were very poor listeners in my opinion, humans are. And so when you talk about things like that, they already have it on your Republicans. And you don't want to ever hear what I have to say. Are, you don't believe what I say, or, you know, the conversations I've had with various people people who are like-minded, no matter what political affiliation they are. Those are my people because it doesn't matter if they're blue or red.
22:12 But I do feel like an island sometimes.
22:16 Just because where I live, and who I am.
22:24 I think in southwest Kansas, you're an outsider. I moved here 20 years ago, and I'm still an outsider and I think that it's, it's just an interesting.
22:39 Place to be. I mean it when I came here, I was first told that all you'll be here to build your resume and you'll move on in 5 years, what's been 20 plus years, but I'm still not native roots that go deep in this area. So I'm still considered an outsider.
22:57 A lot of circles.
23:01 I'm surprised that you feel that way that you feel like it. You're not fighter because I think of you is a really important person in our in our community and getting to know you better and she's lots of fun to have your political leanings.
23:30 But the next question it was the one I want to answer you ever feel troubled by those people with the same beliefs as you. And I sometimes think that we are that we
23:45 End up being identified by certain catch phrases like that one about defund the police.
23:55 That's you know what Democrats have got that now on their shoulders, on their heads that they want to defund the police in it.
24:04 It's so scary to think that because we don't really want this defund. The police. We went to free up the police for doing what they should do and not have to worry about the mental health issues that arise and and have to be noted that they have to deal with and the domestic violence. They should have other people that they
24:28 Rely on to help them with those situations. And I had heard that just the other day, that fixed. The Garden City. Police Department is doing exactly that and that they are bringing in more people that they would work for the issues that, you know, when they find some guy on the corner, that's
24:48 Just whacked out and he's and the police. Don't know what to do with him. They don't know what to say to him. If they can bring in a mental health, person or someone with drugs experience. They can do so much more and not have it be a policing, a policing solution.
25:10 Yeah, I think the whole, you know, Define black lives matter defund need to put there was so many things have happened. In this polarized, our country that eventually, I have great. Hope it will come in the middle and agree that things have to change in a lot of different areas in our country. And somebody takes this little seed idea, and they blow it into a big constant, and then the other side takes it and runs with it and is it was never intended to be that way?
25:48 You know.
25:56 But I think I work on a psych unit, Carol for five years, as Behavior specialist. And I saw what police had to deal with between psychiatric emergencies, and sometimes psychiatric, emergencies mixed with drugs. And those are tough tough, tough situation that you just don't know how to handle very scary. I'm just don't know what's going to happen. If you can't predict what's going to happen. And so these policemen are going out there trying to Defuse The Situation unless you've done it or you've been out there. You've been a part of something like that. You don't understand how scary that isn't how they met over. I'm not defending them and how they might over react to something, cuz I fear themselves.
26:53 I I saw it all over and over working in a psych unit placement, coming and scared.
27:01 You know, I never dealt with anybody shooting, anybody other than one time, but it was out of fear. Was it because they were trying to be
27:14 Brutal, but yeah, that's the other side. We have policemen who probably don't have the personality or what it takes to be, somebody balanced in a, in a uniform. You know, I think
27:31 There is police brutality. What has happened to so many people? Terrible.
27:38 Shit happen.
27:41 I totally agree. They're not, they don't have the training for the for those situations. They don't like the grandson-in-law, really scary. Scary. The domestic.
28:11 Disagreements insights. And it can be really volatile and and horrifying for for the police officers, as well as the people that are like a children that are enduring it.
28:24 Yes, that's, you know, I do that. Now. I work with children who are removed from the home in a lot of time is because of drugs or domestic violence or neglect or abuse and
28:38 You know, you read the affidavit with the police with had to do during that removal was.
28:45 Yeah, we're fine doesn't make our papers, but it's it's scary. What's happening in our community today?
29:08 I think I already sent it to my home so we can all come together and get along and you know, you look at history and some of its repeats itself, but I think like you go back to one of our history in America that we were able to come together and build a stronger nation and do great things. Like have great. Hope that we can do that again. I think that
29:31 I don't know if I'll sit in my lifetime, but I still have great, hope that it will happen and I make a lot of people will have to make concessions on both sides in order to get there because I think that most people that are in the United States. We're probably pretty balanced. You know, I don't think we're extremist, but there is some out there. I'm not naive to think that there's not, but I think that the majority of people are pretty balancing. We all want the same thing opportunities and you know, be able to
30:07 Yeah, make our life better. No matter where it's no matter where you start it's to make your life better.
30:16 My, That's My Hope.
30:19 I have hope for the nation and for the world in that we can somehow work together to to get global climate change in the global warming situation under, you know, under control and reverse it. Cuz I think it's going to be horrible. I mean, I worry so much about my grandkids and and the other you know, young people what they're going to have to live through and what they're
30:53 I keep telling my grandkids, you got to be thinking of stuff to do that that you know, all these young people and got to be the ones that solve the problems that we left them with.
31:07 And I am heartened by like for instance here in Garden. City are high school. I have such great hopes for our young people here because we have such a diverse.
31:25 Racial and ethnic pop population here, and the kids at our high school. I think get along so beautifully. And they're there was a guy who was campaigning for for office and he he ended and he was a person who he is a person who has been all over the country. He works in Silicon Valley in, in, in California, and he said, I have never been to a better High School in any part of the countries that he would, he talk to these kids and he said, they weren't all grouped in like, little white groups and blue brown groups and little black groups, you know, everybody was mixed together.
32:14 And they were interested in what he was saying and he was, and they were attentive. And they, you know, he was just blown away by it by art by our kids. And I am thinking I have really great. Hope if if the kids and keep up this.
32:35 Respect and love for up for their for their diverse friends.
32:41 And, and that the color thing just doesn't have to be.
32:48 Primary anymore.
32:53 Allow them to, to lead in that direction.
33:00 I agree with you is climate change at
33:04 We cannot stick her head in the sand. Not another day. It is. Our whole world is going up in flames and we're sending yours. Ain't no, we don't have climate issues. Yes, we do.
33:17 What do we do? I mean, I mean I look at what I can do, but what do we do?
33:25 And I think our only hope is the is the boat people in office who believe the same, you know?
33:32 Will do something little propriate money to, to figure out how to stop it, or how to reverse it.
33:41 It's a bit scary for me to work with this Real Men, Real leaders. I am amazed by this group of young boys have graduated here in their program. That is something to say and our community that needs to be replicated All Over America and they just get there. Just so
34:19 No matter what, they're doing, either just happy to be doing it and they're just, they get along so well and they're really teaching to serve their Community, you know, for a long, long time. We haven't seen a lot of Social Capital ability community, and my hope is that we will see that come back again. We really haven't seen
34:42 So, hopefully, we'll start seeing young people who want to serve to serve again, boards or organizations, or just to be a part of their community group.
34:55 There, there were, they are wonderful. That's a great group that you see them all the time and different places. They're picking up trash or they're helping do stuff, you know, for four different festivals and events and they are like you say really great kids.
35:16 And they have a leadership program. That if you go to so many leadership Advance, then they get like, little plaxer, and it may not mean a lot to us, but it means a lot to them, because it talks about leadership and, you know, she met needy family. It's really, it's really kind of a
36:08 Do we go to the next question? One of the questions or if you have serious about something you generate your own question for each other.
36:29 It's completely what your curiosity is.
36:42 I will go first Carol, you know, I was raised very, very traditional Baptist / Pentecostal.
36:53 Now you can't get more conservative than that.
36:57 But now I go to community Congregational Church.
37:08 As I have aged over the years, I don't in some of these more traditional, or very, very conservative religions. I sometimes had a very hard time to see Jesus there because Jesus was not so conservative.
37:29 So, you know, I I think when is as my grandmother would say, they're, they're so narrow-minded. They can look through a keyhole with both eyes. You know, I see that some religions are like that, and that's a religion. That's not your, it's not your
37:51 Thanks. I think if I get older, I don't really want to participate and a church. That's like that. I struggle in my own church today, sometime some of the things that are said because I think that Jesus is so much bigger and much more loving and caring that a lot of churches. Portray. It's more condemnation and more.
38:19 Yeah, you're going to go to hell if they fire and brimstone kind of preaching and I was raised on that. So I understand it but I think they get older. You understand. The loving is of God, the kindness of God, and so I probably more fitted to be in a Methodist Church. So this is much more liberal than where I am leaving out today, but
38:51 Sometimes God just leads you to where you're supposed to be, but I struggle sometimes wear.
38:57 My pastor is really, really conservative. And that's some of the things he says her. It's kind of like that, but
39:08 You don't want to let One Bad Apple or one bad sermons for a whole bunch of other really good service, I guess.
39:21 Will I find that my my political views?
39:32 Challenging, my religious ones I used. I grew up in the United Church of Christ which was and and then when I was married, I became Catholic and I have been a Catholic for 56 years now. We've been married for 56 years and just lately I can hardly stand to
40:06 There are so many that are.
40:09 Going to the conservative the really ultra-conservative side. And there it's like they want to have the religious freedom to discriminate against other people. They're saying their religious freedom is being challenged well because they don't want them. They want to be, they don't want gay people that you have to be able to adopt children. They don't want.
40:34 Pro-choice and not the pro-life knee, jerk that and that that your I don't feel so. Well as welcome anymore in in my own church. As I used to be used to feel like Saint, Mary's was fairly liberal. We had Precious Blood priests, who were much more christ-like in there in there, leave them in their beliefs and
41:02 I don't know. I'm struggling with that. So, you know, you know, if you're pointing fingers and look around and there's three of them pointing back at you. So,
41:27 I always say this because we're all on our own Jerry and face, whatever fate you believe in that, you got to work out your own salvation. Who am I to say? Oh, you're homosexual, you won't go to heaven or ear living in sin or what some of these things. The conservative Church brings out my it up. I will probably just eat by the skin of my teeth, getting in the Pearly Gates myself. So, who am I to say? Oh, you know, you're mad and, you know, somebody, I feel like that's wrong. I think every person has to work out their own salvation and
42:17 Far be it for me to say somebody's not going to go to heaven, or you going to go to hell, because I'm just trying to make it myself.
42:27 Nope. That's why I personally religiously I don't I am not really changed. My beliefs are still the same as they were when I was a little kid, even though, you know, I'm a Catholic, it's just not as
42:43 I guess I'm sort of a Protestant Catholic.
42:52 Carole. How do you navigate your current beliefs religious, or political family? Gatherings?
42:59 I keep my mouth shut.
43:05 Because it's it's it's a bad deal to talk about any of it. Unless you're with certain ones that you know.
43:15 Share the same.
43:22 Talk about the weather.
43:24 How about you kind of different, you know being raised in the South? We were raised to say what you have to say. You still family. We still love you. If so, it's interesting how I have three brothers, one has passed away, but have to still living that when we were together. We will talk about things that you do. But each other, like that's a crazy thing to say, why would you do that? You know, but it still gives you permission to say what you feel.
44:09 I think my brothers are a lot more conservative. I am so they sometimes look at me like I'm the crazy one, but
44:19 You know, we would always raise no matter what you may, you may have differences. You may have a conflict which if you had a you're still love each other and you're still family and I know I know personal friends who've had great Division and they don't talk to her family anymore because of religion her or their political affiliation that we just wasn't raised that way. To be honest with you care. We just
44:47 What we talk to each other. We just I just don't tell him what I say.
44:58 So it's just, you know, you have to just find other things to talk about which is not all that hard. So.
45:06 They they know me and I know them. So.
45:12 Although sometimes I have been really.
45:19 Felt threatened by some not not family members, but but threatened.
45:25 That bit, there might be a danger in in expressing the views of certain types of use.
45:37 That are.
45:39 With your family.
45:51 Yeah, I agree with you. Sometimes just like you better just to.
45:55 Not engaged. You know, it cuz you're not going to change a person's opinion. They're certainly not going to change our so yeah.
46:20 How do you want to be remembered?
46:30 Oh my god. I've never thought of this. I mean.
46:34 I think that I would want people to think of me as being kind of funny.
46:41 Strong independent.
46:46 Tell a great story.
46:52 I don't think of anything else. I think I I think I want a funny headstone. Like, you know, like something I would say, like I told you, I was sick. I mean, it's just me. I haven't like to tell jokes and have fun. So I think
47:12 Being I will be there. I will be buried with my father and my family is from the Hatfields of the great Hatfields, and McCoys story, and my father is buried their father's side of the family is buried there. And I have a plot next to my father, that if I'm still single when I passed away, that's my plot. But
47:41 Yeah, you didn't know that about me. Carol seals in The McCoys. Well, that explains why you are the Way You Are.
47:53 But I think my dad never met a stranger and that's on my dad's Tombstone. And I think I would probably want to be remembered of humor, humor and kindness.
48:09 And that I've ever met a stranger and was always kind to a stranger.
48:13 What about yourself? How would you want to be remembered?
48:19 I would like to be remembered as someone who cares about other people and who was always kind to people and generous and
48:34 I would like to be known as someone who loved deeply.
48:41 Love my family and my friends.
48:48 Then I would say.
48:51 Always willing to say, yes, I'll do that.
49:00 I can't say no, so I guess I don't know and I hope that people would think that I was funny. I tried try to be. I think that, I think humor is some has time to tell we navigate.
49:20 Everything, you know, he's got to be able to laugh or you'll just burst out crying sometimes though.
49:30 I guess I agree. Laughter is the best medicine in a rough spot in your life.
49:47 Well, I have I have to say I really enjoyed this.
49:55 Great. I can't wear at the 50-minute Mark. And, and I have to say that.
50:04 The way you described how you want to be remembered, is how your thought of now?
50:11 So you are what you would like to be remembered? That's how you guys are now. So thank you so much for sharing with each other and for having patience.
50:25 With me and and that's with it, the beginnings of this and Carole. It sounds like you learned some things about about Debbie and Debbie vice versa.
50:41 It was great. I still want to find out about your call your travels. I'm so envious of all of these is that you've been in it, so I'm going to my 60 something. I don't know. I have to look it up, but we are going to Antarctica.
51:02 Be my 7th continent. So I'm pretty excited about that. But Deborah and Dale and quite a few other people who's going in a January and it is such a great deal. They were like, I never thought I could get the Antarctica, but it looks like God willing. I'll be there in January though. Not going to be able to join us.