Deborah Binder and Michael Reynolds

[00:05] DEBRA BINDER: Okay, so my name is Debra I am 38 years old, and I am in Taos, New Mexico. It's March 17, 2023 today. And I'm here with Mike, with Michael Reynold who I've been working with for almost 10 years and who is my boss. But also at this stage, I think I can say my friend, if you have any friends.

[00:34] MICHAEL REYNOLD: My name is Michael Reynold and Deborah's been my associate. Yeah. For over 10 years. Ish. Around the world, doing. Making an effort toward whatever it is we're doing here. And we're, as usual, here to talk to you about what we're doing.

[00:55] DEBRA BINDER: Yeah, I mean, my reason why I was actually really excited about doing this and getting this out there to the world is because I think you've touched so many lives and so many people and so many different communities with what you do. And I think that's a story that, you know, should be heard and needs to be out there. So I don't know if you can you maybe just give us short introduction on what you do and what we do and what we're trying to do here to make this world a little better.

[01:29] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Yeah, just the short version is over 55 years, I've observed that maybe, just maybe, everyone having sustainable housing, autonomous housing, would gain more ground toward the overall problems with human life on this planet than almost anything else. And that's crescendoed over 55 years. I'm sure of it now, that that's what it would take to begin making life on this planet better. And so we have, over the last 55 years, been developing what we call a product or a vessel that encounters the phenomena of the planet to provide autonomous sustenance for people. Now, that is our objective. We both believe that is good for us, and now we've grown to believe it is good for every living human on the planet, and that that could provide at least a foundation for a better life on this planet. Now, we haven't just dreamed this up overnight and a light bulb came on and this was what we're doing. It evolved. It presented itself over 50 years. 55 years. And sometimes I look at myself like a writer in front of a royal typewriter and you know how they type a few paragraphs and then they rip it out and wad it up and throw it on the floor? Well, I kind of have been doing that all over the world. And literally all over the world, I have been doing this and done examples of it all over the world. But only recently have I felt I've come close to getting it right. And now I do think we have the product. I'm ready to leave the paper in the typewriter and keep going. And now I'm ready to try and get it around the world. And Debra has been helping me demonstrate it around the world, even though it hasn't been absolutely perfect. And now we're, we have both decided that it's time to take what we have around the world because it is not perfect, but it is damn near there now. That's what we do and that's what Debra and I are doing.

[03:56] DEBRA BINDER: So we're talking about buildings that are completely off grid, that catch their own rainwater, generate their own electricity through solar and wind, treat their own sewage, grow their own food. And they're made out of a bunch of repurposed and recycled materials, tires, cans, bottles and so on. And they use thermal masks to keep a person comfortable. So we're sitting here today and you know, we have about 6 inches of snow outside and we're sitting in a building that's warm and comfortable and doesn't have any heating or cooling. So you've obviously done this all over the world, but you've also pretty much single handedly created the biggest off grid community in North America. Is that something like, how do you feel about that? Is that something that you ever envisioned doing when, you know, when you were growing up or like, what did you want to be when you, when you were growing? I guess I should ask you, what do you want to be when you grow up?

[04:56] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Yeah, yeah, I got a Peter Pan complex. Even though I'm 77, I am still growing up. And the thing is, no, I never did have the even thought of this happening. I was out to take care of myself and just was. I never had ideas of a big business or anything. I just wanted to live out here in northern New Mexico and be able to take care of myself and enjoy life. And I did in lots of places, in lots of my various earlier incarnations of this vessel that we call the Earthship. But at one point I maybe two or three points actually it worked so well for me that I got so elated and happy and comfortable that I went, that I kind of had epiphanies and went, oh my God, this is so great. I really think every human on the planet should have it now. I didn't have ideas of selling it to every human on the planet and making a billion, billion billion dollars or whatever, $150 billion, whatever is the current rich person number. I just thought every person should have this. And sometimes I curse myself because that's when I came back to the real world from my euphoria and started trying to do this for everybody and got into all kinds of trouble. I mean, you know, it's like, you know, no good deed goes unpunished. It's thing over and over and over again. And so I'm still just. I went back, actually, to just, what does it take to take care of me? And even that had the same solution. What it takes to take care of me is what I've learned. Yeah. And applying these six points to my life that Debra just mentioned. But I can't enjoy it because nobody else, if nobody else has it. So it. What it takes to take care of me is for everybody on the planet to have this. And that's kind of where we are now. We are about trying to make this available. We're not going to cram it down people's throats and advertise and say, this is the only way to live and make promises and all of that. We're just saying that, look, folks, we discovered gold in our backyard, and you probably got it in your backyard, too. Here's how you find it. That's kind of what we're about doing, is making it so people can move in this direction, making it easy. Sometimes I liken it to, It's a jungle, and I've got a machete, and I'm hacking my way through the jungle. But my team that's with me is turning that rough trail into a yellow brick road that makes it very easy for others to follow. That's kind of what we're doing.

[07:58] DEBRA BINDER: Okay. And one question I always had for you is when, like, was there an event that changed that, where you all of a sudden said, okay, I need to take this into the world. Like, I know that there's been a bunch of disaster relief projects in India and so on, but was there one in particular where you were like, okay, we're going international now? Well, okay, so my question was how you've, you know, once you started building your ships, everywhere, when was the moment that you said, okay, I need to take this around the globe. I need to get, you know, out of Taos and start doing this? Was there. And I know you've done a bunch of disaster relief projects. Was there one in particular where you were like, okay, we need to go and do this now? Or, how did that all start?

[08:48] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Well, the. Around the world are taking it to everybody saying, I had thoughts of it here and there along the way, because it works so good for me. In other words, if something works good for me and then that impresses me to a certain degree, but then if my friends come around and go, I want this, that helps. And then, you know, people I don't know say, I want this, then that helps make me realize that maybe I need to sort of try to make this available. I see. I just never thought that anything was good enough for anybody else. I thought it was good enough for me because I got. I got minimal standards. I got low standards of life, actually. But the thing is, I. I started getting. People say I want this. And then. But they. And then I learned, you know, it's a learning experience. I learned that people say, people may say, you know, I want to. I want to be on one of the next flights to the moon, but they don't realize what they're in for. That's what I. What's. That's what I realized. People really want this, but they don't realize what they're in for. Getting off of the grid and being on your own and growing your own tomatoes and realizing that tomatoes are good for you, better than junk food and so on. So there's just so much to learn, and I'm still learning today. So there was no one incident, although there were many sort of potent incidents. And one of the most potent ones of recent history is during the COVID winter of two or three winters ago when I was watching on TV the people, wealthy people waiting in line for food, wealthy people waiting in line for water, wealthy people going out to their automobiles to turn the heaters on so they could keep their kids warm because their house power went off in the storms that we had during COVID and the water pipes froze and water was running down their steps and even in their three million dollar home. And I was walking down my hallway barefoot, harvesting tomatoes and spinach and warm and had plenty of water. I was just absolutely comfortable, secure, not vulnerable. And all these people, much more wealthy than me, were not. They were vulnerable. They were panicking. So I went, wait a second. It is time. Even though I don't think I will ever get it perfect, it is time to let it go to press. You know what I mean? In other words, I'm in front of the royal typewriter and this page I'm not going to rip out, I'm just going to keep going because it's close enough that it will be the message that I need to get out there. And, you know, Debra says that I've been all over the world Doing disaster relief projects. Sometimes I look at that a little bit different. I say, I've been all over the world creating disasters. You know, I have never gotten it perfect, but now is the closest I've ever come and there's nothing else out there.

[12:01] DEBRA BINDER: Do you think that having, you know, food security and having water security and having a warm, comfortable place to live that obviously creates, know, safe, like a safety net, makes people feel safe and secure? Do you think that creates happiness?

[12:19] MICHAEL REYNOLD: No, it doesn't create happiness. Happiness comes out of the blue. Nobody knows where happiness comes from. Doesn't create happiness, but it creates a foundation from which you may be able to receive happiness when it comes to you. In other words, if you're totally secure and you got plenty to eat and you're fat and fat and sitting there not fat and happy, if you're secure and not stressed about life in general, then you are in a position to receive happiness when it comes. That's what I'm saying. Because happiness relates to all kinds of other things besides just sustainable autonomy. But I don't think you even have a chance of receiving happiness when it comes to you like a meteorite out of the sky, unless you are, unless you are in a non vulnerable, autonomous life that at least makes you comfortable. I think mental comfort, emotional comfort and physical comfort set you up for happiness.

[13:27] DEBRA BINDER: What are some of the things that have influenced you or some of the people that have influenced you to do this? Because, you know, a lot of people that you work with say that you are some sort of different creature. Some people say that you're not even human around here. And you, you know, you obviously, if that's something that I admire of you, that you've had a lot of self discipline and strength to, you know, get all this going, which basically has just been your brainchild. But what, what people or things have influenced you to do this?

[13:58] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Well, when you put it into a people category, the only person ever in my 77 years that I would have to say is a real influence, the only human would be Noah. Noah. And I guess, you know, they say God lit a fire under him, whatever, you know, he was told to build a ship out in the middle of the desert, a big wooden boat. Well, I think that the fact that he did that with everybody calling him an idiot, that was impressive. And he did it apparently, according to the Bible, according to history. And he made a boat with a bunch of animals and put a bunch of animals in it. And sure enough, the floodwaters came. Well, whether that happened or not, that was impressive. And so I kind of feel like that sometimes that every, everything of our dogma is telling me I'm an idiot and a crazy hippie out in the desert and whatever, but more and more that people are seeing that the waters are coming. So I'm looking much less and less like a crazy hippie out in the desert. But that is a human factor. But if you were to say what, not who, if you say what influenced me, it would be a tree. Because a tree just stands there, roots going down to get nutrition and water, leaves going up to get energy and leaves. It puts out oxygen for creatures like us and takes in carbon dioxide that we breathe out. It is encountering the phenomena of the planet for its sustenance. I want us to be like trees. I want myself to be like trees. I have tried it. It works. So I am advocating it.

[15:57] DEBRA BINDER: So you mentioned Noah as one of your influences as a human. What would you put on the ark if you were to build one?

[16:07] MICHAEL REYNOLD: That's an interesting question. Well, the ark was there for all of the animals. In a way. What we're doing is trying to provide individual arc for everybody. We're trying to provide everyone with their own ark so that then they can put on their ark what they think is important to them. And, but a lot of that has to do with, you know, the overall understanding of humanity about what is important is a factor. You know, that's an issue. What people think is important these days is not. What's important is that everybody on this planet has a good life. And that's, that's, it's humans. We're, I think what we're doing, our vessel that I call it, is really an ark for humans that they themselves acquire one way or the other. Now the acquisition of this ark for humans is kind of where we're at now. We've done academy and various seminars and things and trying to show and written a lot of books and things to show people how to do this for themselves. But the fact remains that 90% of humanity, they're not home builders. They really don't want to or can't do this for themselves. That's an understanding that I've had to acquire over the years. So what I'm saying now is that we want to make this available so that people can acquire this just as easily as they can acquire an automobile. And that's kind of our project now is to make it so you can lease a ready made airship that will take care of you with no utility bill and no vulnerability. To the municipal utility systems that you can lease one just as easily as you can lease a BMW. You can go into the BMW dealer and sign a few papers and pay $450 a month, maybe a signing fee of 1,000, something like that, and walk out with the keys to a BMW.

[18:22] DEBRA BINDER: But not everybody can afford a BMW, right?

[18:24] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Well then you've got to do a Chevy Nova or whatever the current cheap Chevy is. In other words, you've got to do. Automobiles are available on lease for varying prices. But they're. The point being almost anybody can, can afford to get an automobile. You see that? Because almost everybody, you know, has an automobile of some kind, whether it's an old beater that they bought or a, a new one that they leased. And what we're trying to do is make Earthships available on that level because everybody can't build them and buy them. And that's the project now is to cause that to happen and to cause it to. The only way we can do that is if we participate in subsidy programs, which I have participated in before. I have gotten people in homes for $120 a month, no down payment. I know how subsidy works. I'm trying to reactivate that for our current modern day vessel, which is much better than what we used to get subsidized.

[19:38] DEBRA BINDER: So your aim, I guess for the future is to get as many people as possible to live in airships then? Is that, what's your direction, you think?

[19:49] MICHAEL REYNOLD: I think that's close. I mean, I'm not really adamant about them being called Earth ships, although that's the best thing I can think of to call them. I'm about getting people to understand this concept, other business people to see that it is viable for this planet and influencing a movement toward sustainable autonomous housing, whether it's called Earthship or not. I mean, Earthship is starting to be synonymous with sustainable autonomous housing. But some people call Earthship, you know, a hippie word. Okay, then let's get a, get another word. Some people want ownership and franchise and all of that. Well, do it. I don't need any of that. I want to make it as easy as possible for everybody on the planet to be in sustainable autonomous housing. And since I, it's my job, I have self appointed this to be my career or my business. Then I got to make grocery money off of it. So there is where I'm at, but I'm not interested in the ownership of this thought. I want everybody to own this thought. I want everybody to think this way because this way of thinking has shown me for 55 years that it'll take care of me.

[21:17] DEBRA BINDER: I mean, I like the name Earthship because I think it makes it easy to explain because it's like being in a spaceship, you know, and you need. Everything that you need has to be in that spaceship because you can't get anything from outside. And I feel like it's an easy way of explaining what an Earthship is because you can say it's like being.

[21:35] MICHAEL REYNOLD: In a spaceship, but Earth, yeah, that, that, that. And we came up with the word we, liking it to a ship sailing across the ocean. It's a ship that has to take care of you like a cruise ship or like a spaceship. And but thing is, the ship has to take care of you right now we take for granted the nuclear power plants, the municipal water systems, which are devastating in their own right, the municipal sewage systems, the government and corporate food systems, and that gets you into the nutrition and medical systems. I mean, there are so many systems that our dogma has placed before us that we're looking at a way to simply encounter what I call the truth. The truth are the phenomena of the planet. The sun is the truth. The rain is the truth. I mean, call me a pagan or whatever, but no congressman is going to be as truthful with me as the sun is. The sun will tell me right up front I will kill you if you go naked in the Sahara desert for five days or if you make a building facing me in the winter. Make your life comfortable. The sun is. Here's what you have to do to relate to me. Congressmen and corporations that advertise products for money tell you what you want to hear and have no intention whatsoever of living up to it. The sun is not that way. The sun is a phenomena. Truth lies in phenomena. And I'm finding that we have made a building that is responding to phenomena because phenomena is truth. And this is the closest to truth that I've ever come do.

[23:36] DEBRA BINDER: You obviously worships are good for humans, as you just said, and they're also good for making a better impact on Earth and you know, with everything about climate change and everything else that is going on, because, you know, we're not burning fossil fuels and things like that, so it's better for that too. What comes first for you is it does nature and the planet come first for you or is it humans that come first for you? And what do you think about more when you are designing these buildings?

[24:10] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Well, I think neither comes first because humans need the Earth. But you know, and I'm human. So we. I'm looking at. I have come up with a new thing. I thought in my mind that that family is every living thing on the planet. Well, that includes humans, but it includes everything else. I'm trying to influence humans to be inclusive of not only every other living thing on the planet, but each other. I mean, if a human is a different color or has a different idea or whatever, there's all kinds of animosity going on there between different kinds of humans. Humans have got a lot to learn. They need to reduce it to the lowest common denominator, and that is encountering the phenomena of the planet so that we can all live here and getting through the dogma, the ego, the. The, you know, the selfness that is causing all of the problems right now. And, you know, it's. It's like I got all kinds of funny ways to put it into my own mind that I understand it, but it's almost like you got to learn to die before you die. You know, you got to give up everything and be part of this planet. Forget who you are, forget what country you're from, forget what race you are, forget what sex you are. Be part of this planet and be alive.

[25:45] DEBRA BINDER: Do you agree with. A lot of people are saying that, you know, a lot of the mental health issues that people are facing in the world right now, like depression and a lot of even physical problems that are going on are because of the disconnect that people have now with nature? Do you agree with that?

[26:02] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Oh, yeah, I do. I do. There's so many ways we are disconnected from nature, and we are. We were probably never meant to be this. This disconnected from nature. You know, I can say, you know, we. We ate from the forbidden tree, and it sort of the intellect thing that we have is kind of, in my mind, a test that we. You know, it's like the ring in the Tolkien novels, Lord of the Rings and everything. You know, nobody really that was even halfway wise wanted to wear the ring because they knew that it gave them power that they were not worthy of. Intellect is kind of. You know, this might weird out a lot of people, but intellect might be a power that we're not worthy of. I don't know. I think I could possibly do without it. I'd rather have the sun, the wind, the rain, gravity, the grass, the bees. I would rather have that and just be. Because I haven't seen that much good come out of intellect.

[27:14] DEBRA BINDER: Yeah, I mean, I always thought that this is just logical and that's why, you know, this makes sense to me when people ask me, why are you doing this? And I say, well, I tried doing so many different things in my life, and then this came. I came across this, and it was just the most logical and rational thing that I'd ever seen. So I committed my life to it. But what do you do to keep so focused on it every day? And do you ever think about, oh, well, I could be doing something else?

[27:45] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Well, it has become here, it has become my. It certainly is my method of making income to survive in terms of whatever income I need. But it's also my hobby. It is also my religion. It is also. It's my. It is everything to me, is what I'm saying. And so, fortunately, the one thing that I'm doing is all of the religion, hobby, health, you know, physical activity and income. It's everything. And so it's. I like to do it. So there's no argument on it in my mind about to. Whether to do it or not. It is, but it's hard. There's no question. But life is hard. So it's like. It is hard to constantly be going against the grain, you know, but. And like climbing up a waterfall, that's kind of what this is like.

[28:58] DEBRA BINDER: Why? Why. Why is it like that? I mean, if it is something that it seems so logical and even more and more with the events that are happening in the world, then why is there still those roadblocks, you think?

[29:10] MICHAEL REYNOLD: I think that dogma is very powerful. And I think that nobody, you know, the waterfall is not intentionally falling on me. It's that I have chosen to climb up the waterfall. But there is a top to the waterfall. There's a top to the waterfall. So you get up there and there's a placid calm in the body of water before the waterfall. It's just a place that I'm in with this right now. So I'm saying it is hard. It is. You know, everybody is already used to a lot of other things that are not really working for us. And it's. It's simply. I've gotten a glimpse of what it's like to. To get outside of them and go in another direction. And I can't let go now. It's actually inspirational. It's a. It's actually exciting. You know, it's like, you know, a lot of times I'll say it's like in a gold mine when, you know, everybody and their brother has been there with their burrow and hacked into this gold mine because There's a. There's a legend of it having a vein of gold. Well, I. I'm the last one standing in there with my donkey. And I hacked away and hacked away, and finally I saw, wait a second, here's the beginning of a vein of gold. That's what I feel like I'm on to right now. The beginning of a vein of gold. So I'm just going to stay there and keep hacking and. And, you know, if. If it keeps going where I think it's going, it's going to be enough gold for the entire world. It's going to be a way of life. It's not. It's not easy to change what has been happening for years and what has been evolving for years. So I'm aware of that. And I don't expect it to be easy for me or anybody that works with me or anybody that even attempts it right now. But what I have to say, one thing that is very true and very important. I've been doing it for 55 years. In the last five years, even I have seen so much to tell me that this is the right direction.

[31:24] DEBRA BINDER: So is that the biggest roadblock is the existing dogma in the world, you think?

[31:29] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Yeah, the biggest roadblock is people themselves. People themselves are used to water coming out of faucet, power coming from an outlet. They don't know that a nuclear power plant, they don't care that a nuclear power plant fuels that outlet. You know, understanding the fact that the sun can heat you and keep you comfortable, understanding that everything that we put in place is nowhere near as important as the phenomena of this planet that are the truth. In other words, is there a politician, is there a corporation, is there a religion that has proven itself to be the truth? Is the Catholic religion the truth? You know, check that out. Is the Democratic or Republican Party the truth? Is anything? Is corporate money the truth? You see ridiculous incidents in all of that. But is the sun the truth? Has the sun ever lied to you? Has the rain ever lied to you? The rain will kill you. It'll drown you. Look at what it's doing with all the floods right now. The rain will kill you and drown you, or it will grow your crops and save you. It's how you relate to the truth that causes you to be able to participate in the truth.

[32:57] DEBRA BINDER: How has. There's a couple of other things I want to ask you, but one of them is how has the fact that you were diagnosed with stage four cancer three years ago now, right?

[33:11] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Over three years.

[33:12] DEBRA BINDER: Over three years. How has that influenced everything? How has that influenced how what you're doing, how you feel about it, how you work, the development of Earthships and where it's going?

[33:25] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Well, it, it's caused me, actually, I hate to say it like this, but possibly it's been a blessing. You know, who would say that being diagnosed with stage four cancer is a blessing? But it's caused me to look at things even harder and more direct. And it's caused me to, it's taught me, it's taught me a whole lot. And the things I have learned in fighting this bear that is stage four cancer has shown me there are parallels between trying to stay alive with stage four cancer and trying to stay alive on this planet. And in a way, I can draw all kinds of parallels. I got a great imagination, you know, corporate dogma, spiritual dogma, political dogma. I can make parallels in my mind that put them right parallel to cancer cells and what they do. And so what I'm saying is all the things that I have tried to do to get out of the cancer of this planet, I'm able to apply to get out of the cancer in my body. And I'm not ever going to get away from this planet, and I'm not ever going to get away from cancer completely. But what I'm doing is I'm learning how to maneuver and exist within this so that it doesn't consume me. The tricks that I learned to stay alive on this planet in going up the waterfall, you know, losing my license, being ridiculed my entire life, the things that I learned to stay alive during that have caused me, if I apply them in a. In a different way, but a parallel way to cancer, they're causing me to be able to stay alive with cancer. I'm not trying to defeat cancer. I'm not trying to defeat this planet. I'm not trying to defeat corporations or religion or politics. I will fight no more forever. Like Chief Joseph said, I love that. But I'm not trying to defeat anything. I'm trying to exist within what already is. And then if that works, which it is, make a pathway for others to exist that same way so that we can become something more than a bunch of stressed out entities killing each other on a ball that is circling through space.

[36:20] DEBRA BINDER: So what, what would that world look like? What if you could imagine or if you could create the world to be whatever you want it now to look like and without any timing right now or in 20 years or whatever it is, what would you want it to.

[36:34] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Look like, I would. I would want it to be every living thing on the planet being able to live together with every other living thing on the planet and an understanding of the wholeness of all life on the planet. You don't like. What I'm seeing in my mind is when you ask the. When you ask the. What do you call it? The beauty queens. What do you call them? The. The beauty queen contests that they have.

[37:12] DEBRA BINDER: Miss Universe.

[37:12] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Miss Universe. Miss Universe always says, I want world peace. Okay, well, I'm not exactly saying that, but I am saying that it's so much above business. It's so much above ego. It's so much above success. It's so much above anyone human. It is. There is a wholeness to the planet that I'm trying to go for. And the foundation. The first steps of going there are sustainable autonomy for everyone.

[37:47] DEBRA BINDER: Awesome. Well, that. I think we're pretty good. Thank you for doing this with me.

[37:53] MICHAEL REYNOLD: Thank you.

[37:54] DEBRA BINDER: Glad you joined me, and I'm glad to be part of this. So it was fun. Okay, thank you.