Deborah Dabney and Ian Murakami

[00:01] IAN MURAKAMI: Hi, my name is Ian Murakami. I am 26 years old. Today is January 20th, 2025. We're recording in Montgomery, Alabama, and I'm sitting with Dr. Deborah Dabney, who is my conversation partner.

[00:14] DEBORAH DABNEY: My name is Deborah Dabney. Today is January the 20th, 2025. My location is Montgomery, Alabama, and my conversation, my relationship to my partner, is we're in conversation today.

[00:29] IAN MURAKAMI: Yes. And I'm happy to get to talk to you. I feel like there's a lot of questions that I can kind of start with, but it seemed like before we started recording, you wanted to talk about family, maybe your faith, some values that you grew up with that are important to you, and maybe a little bit about legacy. So maybe if you could start by just describing what your upbringing was like, what it was like being in your family growing up. Did you grow up in Montgomery?

[00:53] DEBORAH DABNEY: I am. I'm a Montgomerian I grew up in Montgomery. I was born and raised in Montgomery in a little town called Hanger Road. And in that community, my mother, who is, her name is Lucille Addison Robinson. It was Lucille Addison Jones. Started her family very early. She was married. To Mr. Robert Jones. And out of that marriage, there were two children, two girls, and she met my father. And from that Union, it's six children. And all of us stayed in this little two-room shack. I'm calling it a shack because we had a living room and a kitchen. And so my mom had to make do with two rooms? We didn't have what you traditionally have now, like you can let the window up and let breeze come in. Where I came from, from this humble beginning, is we have had something called a latch on the window, a latch on the screen door, that we did not have to lock doors or do anything like that from where I came from. When you wake up in the morning, you unlatch the window, which was a wood window, and open the window. I came up with birds flying in. That was a norm. That was not uncommon for birds to be flying in and out of the home. So that's why it keeps me grounded. It keeps me humble. To know that you can start small. And the reason I say that, one of my professors in college, he.

[02:59] SPEAKER C: Said.

[03:00] DEBORAH DABNEY: Often, don't despise small beginnings. And with that, I already had those feelings, like, I'll never forget where I come from. I won't be ashamed of where I come from. I don't mind sharing with people where I come from because where you start, it doesn't mean that's where you're going to end. And so I was very grateful for my mother who had a very strong mother who had very good work ethics. They came from a very small and a very poor place. My grandmother farmed along with her husband, and my mother learned how to grow her own plants, plant her own gardens for all those children that she had. That's how she was able to maintain and take care of us. There was no welfare. I never heard my family talking about receiving public assistance. They worked. My grandmother worked. My mother worked. She taught us to work for what you want. That's my mother's mother, my dad's mom also. My granddaddy was a farmer. He planted big gardens. That had plenty of crops. And he also harvest them and took them to the market. My grandmother took them to the market, her products to the market. One thing in particular that I thought that was very unique, my mother shared with me how my grandmother, she always had a cow, she kept a goat, she kept chickens. She kept pigs. She would keep those things, I imagine, because they were not people or means. Somehow she was able to get these things or purchase these animals that she would keep. But from the animals she The chickens, she would take her eggs to market, what they called to town to sell her eggs. She also made her own butter. And one of the unique things that my mom told us about what my grandmother did, she, when she made the butter, she knew how to take the tin cans, the different size tin cans, They can be square, she had round, she had all different shapes that she would get from just opening up a can and she would shape her butter in different shapes. And I said that was a marketing tool for her because my mom said a lot of times people would be looking for her and her name was Annie. Her name was Annie Addison. Annie Lee Addison. When she married my granddad, if I had to go back into her legacy, her grandmother, her mother died early and the grandmother's sister raised her and gave her the name of her of the sister, the oldest sister and her husband. So her name was Annie Albert.

[06:53] IAN MURAKAMI: It seems like self-reliance was maybe one of those values that I'm hearing come up.

[06:58] DEBORAH DABNEY: Yes.

[06:59] IAN MURAKAMI: What do you think, or why do you think your family emphasized that for you or for your siblings?

[07:06] DEBORAH DABNEY: My mom would emphasize that you have to, if you want something, you have to work for it. It was no waiting around to see if someone was gonna bring it to you, but she taught us early on, even my older sisters, she taught them early on how to go to work. She would even take them to work with her, which she was working in Caucasian homes.

[07:35] SPEAKER C: And.

[07:38] DEBORAH DABNEY: Now we consider these companies as entrepreneurs when you have the different majors that come in and clean your home, but during my momma era, it wasn't considered an entrepreneur. It was considered your maid, and that was like a low-grade job. Most people did not want that kind of job, but my mom did that service, and she hired herself out to different people, different days, to earn money to help raise her family.

[08:14] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[08:14] DEBORAH DABNEY: Like she, I can remember some of the names, the Bright Hops, the Lees, the different families that she would serve. On Mondays, she had to go to this home and maybe she had to babysit.

[08:31] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[08:33] DEBORAH DABNEY: Or cook. Tuesday, she might go to a family and her services was to do laundry and iron. On Wednesday, she may go to a home and she was strictly there to maybe do the bathrooms or make up beds and exchange linen. And some days she had full service. And when I look at that now and I share with my siblings, I said, without saying it, without people honoring that, that was entrepreneurship. It was entrepreneurship what my, my grandmother was doing with taking her products to the market, taking her eggs, taking her greens, taking her butter, baking cakes.

[09:31] IAN MURAKAMI: Yeah.

[09:32] DEBORAH DABNEY: To the market.

[09:33] IAN MURAKAMI: So when you were saying, like, like establishing that work ethic or watching your mom do all of this work, do you think it influenced your own idea of what you wanted to do when you grew up or what did you want to be when you were a child?

[09:48] DEBORAH DABNEY: It influenced me greatly. I did realize early on, I guess maybe by age 13, my mother encouraged me or told me that I had to go sign up At the time it was called, it was a program that's called SYEP, Summer Youth Employment Program. And you had to be the age like 12 or 13 that you had to fill out application to become employed at the time. So I've been working probably around 12, 13.

[10:27] IAN MURAKAMI: And what was your first job?

[10:29] DEBORAH DABNEY: My first job was at a daycare center. They put me in a daycare center to help the daycare workers with little children. That was my first job.

[10:42] IAN MURAKAMI: My first job was at the cafeteria at my school. Just as an aside, I always like asking people that. And then you talked about how you were one of six children, correct?

[10:52] DEBORAH DABNEY: I am the seventh of eight children.

[10:56] IAN MURAKAMI: Seventh of eight children.

[10:58] DEBORAH DABNEY: Okay. Yes.

[10:58] IAN MURAKAMI: And so what was it like growing up with all those siblings or being the youngest or one of the younger members of your family?

[11:04] DEBORAH DABNEY: I thought it was a good experience working, being with them. Some of my older sisters, sometimes they don't particularly care for it because they would say, I had to have you on my hip playing. I'm trying to play kickball or hula hoop and I had to have you on my hip and playing I had to take you with me because if mom had to work or mom had to do something, the older sisters, that was not uncommon for them to take care of the younger kids. So they're joke about that sometime. I know you before you knew yourself, you know, they say that kind of a thing. And I said, well, I appreciate what you did.

[11:52] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[11:53] IAN MURAKAMI: And so as you move through, like, that first job, this. SYEP, how did you move into kind of leaning more into faith? I've heard that you've gotten quite an education in theology. So how did that come about?

[12:07] DEBORAH DABNEY: That came about in the rural area where I grew up, which was the old Hamburg Road. I was born there, I was raised there, I was educated there. I went to Hamburg Road Elementary slash Junior High School. That's where we were educated. My mom was not a Christian at first. She went to church with my grandparents, which my grandmother was at Church Mount Olive Baptist Church, which my sister is still at the church where my grandmother was. But I don't know. If you had this experience, sometimes you can be at church, but you're not. You at church, but the church ain't in you. I don't know.

[13:04] IAN MURAKAMI: Say more about that.

[13:07] DEBORAH DABNEY: You have people down. You can be at church or you can be in church, but it's church in you. Meaning that have you accepted the teaching of Christ? Are you just at church for the entertainment piece? Are you at church just to build friendship and relationships? Is this how you collaborate? This is how you build your business? Are you building a relationship with a person that you have not ever laid eyes on, but you believe the words that is in the scripture as a God to guide you.

[13:51] IAN MURAKAMI: So like embodying the faith or bringing.

[13:53] DEBORAH DABNEY: It into your life? Yes.

[13:55] IAN MURAKAMI: Okay. And how do you feel like you've done that?

[13:58] DEBORAH DABNEY: My mother became a Christian and then she started taking us to church. As my siblings got older, some of them faded out, but I was one of the ones that stayed. And so I followed my mother around to church. So with being in church at Pilgrim Missionary Baptist Church down on Old Haine Road, some of the people in the church saw something in me that I did not see in myself, so they start asking me, would I come in? And help with the younger children. Back at that again. Can you come and sit and help with the younger children in the Sunday school class? And it moved from the young children to the youth. From the youth, I end up in teaching adults. And the superintendent at the time.

[15:09] SPEAKER C: Who.

[15:09] DEBORAH DABNEY: Was Ernest, Deacon Ernest Williams.

[15:12] IAN MURAKAMI: He.

[15:16] DEBORAH DABNEY: Saw something. He said he. He saw that my spirit, my personhood was one day going to move toward Ministry. And I said, I don't think God want nobody like me.

[15:31] IAN MURAKAMI: Why would you say that?

[15:37] DEBORAH DABNEY: I would say that because as a young girl growing up, I knew I had a lot of growing to do. One of the things was, and I still have to watch myself now.

[15:56] SPEAKER C: Because.

[15:59] DEBORAH DABNEY: I had to taper my attitude on my. I had to bring my attitude into a better place with other people.

[16:17] SPEAKER C: With.

[16:17] DEBORAH DABNEY: Other people, you know, like for an example, with all of the nonsense, and I don't. I guess maybe my mother, grandmother, my daddy's people, I don't know where I picked up this from, but I had a very low tolerance for a lot of craziness. So because I had a low tolerance for a lot of craziness, I might fight you. I would.

[16:51] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[16:52] DEBORAH DABNEY: That's the truth.

[16:54] IAN MURAKAMI: When did you feel like you were ready to move into ministry? Or what made you want to move into ministry?

[17:01] DEBORAH DABNEY: It was the Spirit of God to keep tugging on my heart that I needed to move toward the warrior Deborah to the calm Deborah. And I have to caution myself even now. Okay. Not to be the warrior because.

[17:34] SPEAKER C: If.

[17:34] DEBORAH DABNEY: Too much come to me, there are times where I will back down and there are times where I won't. I will not back down. So I have to constantly go and silence that person.

[18:04] IAN MURAKAMI: Do you feel like you've reached a balance between the warrior and the calmer, Deborah?

[18:09] DEBORAH DABNEY: I think I've reached somewhat a balance between that warrior and that calmer person. I now sometimes I can step away or walk away or move myself out of those spaces.

[18:24] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[18:29] IAN MURAKAMI: I'm trying to think of, I'm trying to find a way to word, how do you feel your faith has helped you balance? Do you feel like your faith has helped you balance?

[18:37] DEBORAH DABNEY: It has helped me balance that tremendously.

[18:40] IAN MURAKAMI: How so?

[18:41] DEBORAH DABNEY: How so is that now I can hear and I can not hear and I can calm myself down. I can, I have the strength or the resilience to now and just say, is this important?

[19:04] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[19:07] DEBORAH DABNEY: And I can walk away. I can take myself into a space where I can worship and I can calm myself. I can try to calm myself and make myself be in a more peaceful state.

[19:29] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[19:31] DEBORAH DABNEY: Where it took time and it will take time to not be the warrior.

[19:44] IAN MURAKAMI: Are there any values or lessons that you try to pass on to your, I guess, is it congregation through your ministry?

[19:52] DEBORAH DABNEY: Through the congregation is through demonstration. The way I walk out the word, not only just teach or counsel or preach the Word, but to walk the Word, to live the Word, allow the Word to live in and through me. So if it takes humbling myself or if it takes abuse from others, unfair treatment, I have to humble myself.

[20:27] IAN MURAKAMI: Through your faith.

[20:28] DEBORAH DABNEY: Through my faith.

[20:30] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[20:31] DEBORAH DABNEY: And, and through that, walking away, moving myself out of hostile and unsafe place, not to share so much of myself in unsafe places.

[20:44] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[20:46] DEBORAH DABNEY: And try to build a legacy where my child, my grandchildren can to thrive in those places, being that I don't want to leave a legacy where they have to come and rebuild, but they are able to move into a space and move into a place where they can continue to learn, to grow and to flourish with what I have built or what I have left behind of being loving kind. Being loving, being kind, treating others the way you want to be treated, and building gratitude for whatever it is that God has given us. Not that we deserve anything but being grateful. And even when people are mean and unkind to us, there's something we can do.

[21:46] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[21:47] IAN MURAKAMI: You mentioned a little bit earlier too, like wanting to talk about the role of love, peace and harmony. What do those concepts mean to you?

[21:57] DEBORAH DABNEY: Love is an action word. It's something that we should put into action. Even in the toughest places, in the darkest hour and the unkindness, Show love. Love is stronger. I've tested, I know it. Love is much stronger than hate. So I give love, even when it's deserved or undeserved. Give it. Give the kindness.

[22:40] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[22:41] IAN MURAKAMI: By the way that you're saying it, it seems like everyone is worthy of love. There's no one who's undeserving of it.

[22:48] DEBORAH DABNEY: Yes, I would say yes. No one is undeserving. Everyone has some worth in them. The best of us, we have some things that are not so kind working in us. And the worst of us have qualities that are good.

[23:10] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[23:11] DEBORAH DABNEY: So everyone is to have worth.

[23:13] IAN MURAKAMI: It seems, does it feel like your faith helps you see that in people?

[23:18] DEBORAH DABNEY: My faith helped me see that in people and not only see it, my faith helped me to live it.

[23:27] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[23:29] IAN MURAKAMI: I know we only have a little bit of time left. I'm wondering, too, as you, like, look back on your life, you talked a little bit about your legacy. Do you have a message or anything you want to pass on to your grandchildren or to Future Generations? A message that you want to share?

[23:43] DEBORAH DABNEY: I would say, let your work speak for you. I would say, let your light shine.

[23:53] IAN MURAKAMI: What does your work say about you?

[23:55] DEBORAH DABNEY: My work says about me that I'm kind. I'm peaceful and I'm loving.

[24:04] IAN MURAKAMI: And what more is there to want than that?

[24:07] DEBORAH DABNEY: That's what my work says.

[24:11] IAN MURAKAMI: Do you feel satisfied with your work?

[24:13] DEBORAH DABNEY: I feel satisfied with my work because I can go into different markets, I can go into different places, I can meet people from all walks of life. Whether I agree or disagree with what lifestyle they have chosen, I still can treat them like a human being. And that's with love, with peace, and with kindness.

[24:42] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[24:42] DEBORAH DABNEY: With no hidden agendas

[24:47] IAN MURAKAMI: It seems like your work is ongoing. It is a lifelong kind of journey. So what do you see your, how do you see your relationship or your faith changing over time or your work with your faith changing over time? What does it look like for you?

[25:01] DEBORAH DABNEY: That looks like for me is that I'm hoping before I move, I've transitioned from this way of life to the other to another life. I hope that I will leave such a rich legacy and a rich heritage for my grandchildren and for their children. And what I would like to leave.

[25:30] SPEAKER C: Behind.

[25:32] DEBORAH DABNEY: Is a place where they can thrive, a place where they can grow, even to bigger things that I've done and that they can take what has I've been given and what I'm giving to them, that they can take it to the world, to the world stage, and wherever they go, whoever they meet, don't have all these Prejudice and all of these Hang-Ups about where this person came from that, because you should not despise your beginning and whatever work that you have put forth to do. You ought to do it with all your might. It doesn't matter what you do. You ought to put your best in it. I don't care if it's serving someone or whether you at the top, maybe of government, serving as the president, whether you the president or you the one cleaning the bathrooms. You should do your best with what you have been put that has been allotted for you to do. That's what I would say to my children. That nothing is too little or too minute for you to do. If it's cleaning, do it well. My mother did it well.

[27:03] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[27:04] DEBORAH DABNEY: If it's the president or if it's the local accountant, what I do, keep up with fundings for others, I do it well.

[27:15] IAN MURAKAMI: It seems like you do what you're doing right now exceptionally well, too. And what a gift.

[27:21] SPEAKER C: Can I jump in and ask a question?

[27:23] DEBORAH DABNEY: Yeah. Deborah, is there anything you wish you told your younger self? Now at this point as you reflect back? I think I would have said to my younger self, stay on track. Although you have many obstacles that will try to take you or sway you another way, stay on track. And I think to some degree I have done that. I have fallen off in many areas. I have fallen off the track, had to go back, ask for forgiveness, get back up and start over. But I think for the most part, I think I kept kindness.

[28:24] IAN MURAKAMI: Is there anything else you want to say or that you want to add with our last two minutes?

[28:28] DEBORAH DABNEY: And I stayed peaceful. And that's what I put in my children. I try to have a home where they can thrive. And I gave, I poured into their life, I poured into my husband's life, and I poured into my children's life. Not only just for me, but for them, when they start a family that they were pouring to their children, their, their husbands, I mean, their wives and, and their children lives, that their children would benefit from them being their father. And I seen what I've seen thus far with my sons seem like their wives and their children have benefit greatly. And that makes me happy to see that. That they know how to treat their wives, love their wives, and take care of their children. That makes me happy.

[29:27] SPEAKER C: Yeah.

[29:28] IAN MURAKAMI: And maybe that in a way is gonna be your legacy too.

[29:32] DEBORAH DABNEY: That makes me happy to see that. No abusing them, I don't see that. I don't see them running off or not taking care of their children. It don't matter what's going on with their mama, take care of your wife and your children.

[29:49] IAN MURAKAMI: Thank you so much, Deborah, for sharing your story with me. I appreciate it.

[29:54] DEBORAH DABNEY: You're welcome.