Dennis L. Hall and Robyn Butler-Hall

[00:01] DENNIS L. HALL: My name is Dennis hall. I'm 80 years old. Today is Wednesday, August 17, 2022. We're in Boise, Idaho, and I'm with Robin Butler hall, my wife.

[00:14] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Hi. My name is Robin Butler hall, and I'm 77. Today, as he said, is Wednesday, August 17, 2022, and we're in Boise, Idaho. Oh, sorry I got us into this, said we should come visit. And then I got cold feet and almost bailed. But by then, Dennis was all in. So here we are. And actually, what we wanted to talk about today was how we and why we moved to Boise in 2016 when we were in our seventies and what prompted it, what led up to it, because it speaks to a phase of life that many people will be going through. And when we've told this story to people before, they said, oh, I wish my parents would do this, or, I'm so sorry that my parents didn't do this. And so I thought maybe it would be helpful to people who are considering this idea.

[01:27] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah, it's been interesting when we talk to people about coming to Boise. How many people have, as you said, mentioned something about, oh, I've been trying to get my parents to move here, or there have been some people that have come for the exact same reasons that we have.

[01:44] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And it's not about moving to Boise. This story is really about approaching the end of life and knowing that you are and trying to plan the best way you can for your children. Because both of us had parents who lived long and late, at least one. I lost my mother when she was 60, but my father was almost 98 when he passed away in Billings, Montana, where I grew up. But in those years, in his later years, we went through the inevitable decline and movement from home to independent, to assisted to nursing situations and the attendant adjustments we made to support that. And Dennis had his own separate situation.

[02:51] DENNIS L. HALL: So my father died, actually, before I was five years old. Four years later, my mother remarried. Wasn't the best situation, but they remained married for the rest of their lives. I have no brothers or sisters. I've got a lot of cousins, but. So I had to take on the primary responsibility for the end of life situations for both of those people.

[03:28] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: But you had a unique situation in that you had an extended family with their particular culture, which really was helpful and supportive.

[03:43] DENNIS L. HALL: We couldn't have done it without them. I'm half armenian, and my armenian side of the family, especially a couple of my cousins who made multiple time per week visits to my mom when she eventually ended up in the California home for the aged, the armenian California home, the armenian California home. Right. Without them. My mom's last five plus years and more than that, actually, because before she went in, they did quite a bit in support of my mom and stepdad.

[04:32] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah. So this decline, I guess we weren't necessarily, we were taking it all just as it came. And my dad had remarried and was living with his second wife until I think she got to a point where she felt like she could not carry the load.

[05:02] DENNIS L. HALL: Right.

[05:03] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And, but I don't think she knew how to handle.

[05:07] DENNIS L. HALL: She didn't.

[05:11] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Saying that. And so abruptly, she let us know that.

[05:17] DENNIS L. HALL: She didn't even let us know.

[05:19] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Oh, that's right.

[05:20] DENNIS L. HALL: She had her daughter let us know she was going in for surgery.

[05:23] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah. She was going in for an elective surgery.

[05:26] DENNIS L. HALL: And her daughter contacted us and said, your dad has to be out of the house in two days. Yeah, they were living in her house. And we had 48 hours to find a place for him to go and then to furnish, to furnish the place.

[05:45] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And the poor guy, he thought it was a temporary thing and he would be going home.

[05:50] DENNIS L. HALL: Well, I think, honestly, we had to kind of present it that way to him, too, that you're just, you're moving in here. We don't know what's going to happen for the long run, but for right now, here's what's going on. And he kept talking about, you know, when I go home, when I go.

[06:08] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Home, it was really sad and it was really hard not to, just because we lived in Billings, it's not that far to go from one place to another.

[06:16] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah.

[06:17] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And so that was one of the first challenges and finding the right place. We were so lucky.

[06:27] DENNIS L. HALL: Oh, boy.

[06:28] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Because we only lived a few blocks from really the best choice of where he could go. And so he moved into a place in billings called West Park Village.

[06:41] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah.

[06:41] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And actually, even now when I read, I read the obituaries and billings, I often, often see people that they were residents of West Park Village. And sometimes I even think, oh, I don't know if we should be here, because when we get to that state, maybe we should be at West Park Village. So we had helped him move into there, and the staff was lovely. And meanwhile, and I did have one sister who lived in town, but I think I was working for myself as a therapist, and so I could adjust my hours and begin to drop clients and make more and more room for whatever was needed. And that was extremely helpful. And the fact that it was also sort of my inclination to be both a health troubleshooter and a caretaker, and you, too. And we kind of formed a great partnership in helping my dad.

[08:02] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah, but you were the lead. And so I have to say that all those things that you said are givens, but your dad's quality of life would never have been as good as it was without your involvement. And the things that you did for him, medically and emotionally. I mean, you went out of your way and did those extra things to try to make his life better. They didn't always succeed. I'm thinking about when he began losing his sight, which was a sad thing, because he was an ophthalmologist.

[08:42] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Right, but an ophthalmologist who didn't regularly take his glaucoma medicine. A word to the wise out there. Take your medicine. Because he. I think he thought that he would die before glaucoma would overtake his eyes. And as his memory got less efficient, I just think he didn't take it regularly before he went in, and he was starting to lose his sight. And unfortunately, that meant that he couldn't read. And so this took us to. Interestingly, my master's was in rehabilitation counseling. And so all of a sudden, I was falling back on things from way early in my career. But we went to the state department for the blind, and we got assisted devices, things that blew things up to really big size. And we tried different things because his memory wasn't good or he'd fall asleep. He couldn't use, like, recordings because they'd keep going, and he wouldn't know where he was, or he couldn't get them going. Right, right. He couldn't do the technology. It was too hard.

[10:02] DENNIS L. HALL: In between, on his tv, he had. He knew how to turn it on, and that was about it. We put it on the movie channel.

[10:09] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah, right. I forgot about that.

[10:12] DENNIS L. HALL: And that was it. There was no changing channels.

[10:15] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: We had to find the favorite channel. I forgot all about that. So, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Cause there's things about it that I have forgotten already. And I remember trying to get him to go to PT and going over there and sitting with him in, like, Christmas movies, like a Christmas story. I'll shoot your eye out and things like that. And I enjoyed meeting all those people and that kind of thing. But it went on into darker times, because there was one time when we decided we were gonna take a break, and we went out to Seattle and where our younger son lived, and we were gonna take a hovercraft to Victoria.

[11:16] DENNIS L. HALL: The picture is vivid in my mind. We're sitting on the hovercraft.

[11:20] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah, we've just gotten on and we get. This is the damnation of cell phones, because you can be gotten anywhere at any time. And my sister calls, and I've got to give her thanks because I am so, so grateful I wasn't there. It would have been horrific. And she hadn't maybe been as involved as we were, but she got the really hard stuff because my dad had a stroke, and she found him in his apartment and had to do. And she called to let us know, and we were trying to decide, do we get on this boat? Do we get off this boat? And then I started thinking, he'll be in the hospital, where he'll have as good a care as he can get. So we're on this boat and we're staying on this boat. And my sister carried the water on that one.

[12:16] DENNIS L. HALL: Yep, she did. Yep, she did. And that was. But it was a worrisome time because you don't know what's going on. And of course, you worry about the worst possible outcome, I think, is, in my mind, at least, oh, you know, what's going to happen? Is he going to die? Is he going to be permanently paralyzed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it did result in a change for him.

[12:46] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And I remember going, when he got out and he was back at West Park Village, then he had to move into the assisted part. I remember being at a meal with him, and he was asking me to remind him who I was, how I was, because he didn't remember I was his daughter or anything. And some of that came back. But there it was definitely. It's a downward trend. And you watch this downward trend in increments, and each one calls for adjustments and challenges and the where of it. And then there was a final step downward. And I remember talking to the director of West Park Village about how to find nursing care, and she was very helpful and very supportive and very kind of on the QT. This is where you shouldn't take him.

[13:56] DENNIS L. HALL: And this is where it was just.

[13:58] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: As important as you should, and this is probably where you're going to get the best care. And so then I had to work with the person who was the head of that place. St. John's is a like, you can have all sorts of independent. It had all those stages, too, but it's much larger. But they had nursing, and I had to work with her about whether or not he could get in because there were certain criteria and monetary requirements and all that kind of stuff.

[14:36] DENNIS L. HALL: And what we were looking for is not just the regular nursing care, but they had cottages that had, I don't remember how many people, but the cottages were kind of all inclusive. They cooked their own meals in there. The staff did. They had their own nurses, so they got to know the patients.

[14:55] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And it was a small number. It was like twelve or 14 patients within each cottage.

[15:00] DENNIS L. HALL: Right. And they were all private rooms. And that's the care that we wanted for him, not a regular nursing home. We just felt that this was better for him. And they had a piano, which unfortunately, he never was able to play. One of the saddest times for me was he was in a wheelchair because he didn't have good mobility. And I was walking him around the place and I took him over to the piano and he kind of put his hands on the piano. And this is a man that played by earth.

[15:47] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: He was a little boy.

[15:48] DENNIS L. HALL: Yep. And he could bang out the tunes and sing, too. And sing. That was the butler. The butler boys were great singers. And he just, he put his hands up there and he just shook his head and said something like, I can't do it anymore. And it was just sad.

[16:12] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah. Well, we didn't mention all the other ways that you helped him. You did all the ironing, the washing.

[16:25] DENNIS L. HALL: And the washing and washing and the ironing. Yeah.

[16:28] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And.

[16:30] DENNIS L. HALL: But we were in his life every day. Yes, every day.

[16:34] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah. It was so lucky that we lived so close.

[16:36] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah.

[16:36] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And it was one time I took him for a walk, or not a walk. He was in a wheelchair. This was at West Park Village, but I was. And it was after the stroke, but I was taking. Wheeling him outside and I thought, I'll take him to our house. I almost dumped him out going over the curb and some car stopped and it was like, uh oh, well, this isn't good. So there were many adventures.

[17:05] DENNIS L. HALL: We took him on trips. Yeah, we took him on some nice trips. We took him to one of your niece's weddings where your brother almost dumped him out of the wheelchair.

[17:20] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Oh, my God. He went. He actually, my brother looked away, let go of the wheelchair. And it was on a wheel, was talking to someone on a hill. And he started going down the hill towards the swimming pool. Oh, my God.

[17:34] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah.

[17:35] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And then we also. And I always wonder if we had something to do with that stroke. I feel bad about it, but not really, because it's exactly. It brought him a lot of joy. We drove down to Colorado to a family reunion on his side. And he was the last living brother, the last living sibling of all these butler guys from Oklahoma. And. And it brought him a lot of joy.

[18:03] DENNIS L. HALL: Oh, definitely.

[18:04] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And all the cousins, I think, really enjoyed having a patriarch there and everything, but it was like, I don't know, 7000ft high or something. We were it. There were a lot of elevations from the 3000 in billings. And I always wondered, because he had the stroke within a month or so of that. And I always worry, but that's me. I worry.

[18:31] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah. So, I mean, I look at that time as one of the truly honors of my life, to be able to be involved with him the way that I was. And, you know, it might be just going by and what were the first words out of his mouth? Hello there. He didn't know who you were necessarily, but it was the same welcoming sound, and then he'd figure it out. I remember the same thing with my mom toward the end, both of them trying to figure out, you know, who I was. Was I the doctor? Was I. Who knows? But once you kind of explained it, they would be able to get in gear. Get in gear, or at least make a good job of pretending that they knew. But even just going and sitting with him, I remember reading to him a little bit. You did that?

[19:41] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah.

[19:41] DENNIS L. HALL: Also, there were some things. Yeah, there were some things that he liked, or maybe he might just have the tv on and I knew how to change the channels and say, you want to watch golf? Oh, yeah. Because he was a golfer. That was another sad thing, is he had to give up the game of golf, which he played all the time, and vacations were built around playing golf. And he had to give up the golf because I'm trying to remember what he said. He couldn't get out of the sand trap.

[20:19] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, he also had something maybe like muniers or something where he'd get dizzy.

[20:26] DENNIS L. HALL: Well, that was it. But he said, I couldn't get out of the sand trap. I said, well, you know, a lot of people have problems hitting. He said, no, I couldn't walk. And he would fall down in the sand trap. And that was part of it.

[20:41] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, that reminds me, too, that he had a few friends from, they used to play pinochle and card at the country club or something, and they started coming for a while and playing cards with him there at West park. And that was very nice, very kind of theme. I was thinking as you were talking that I think one of the things that was gratifying for me or good for me was this wasn't the role, the roles that we had in my growing up, he could be really harsh, and I don't know how to explain it, but it was. I was the daughter and he was the son and he was the father in this. It was like I was helping this person.

[21:43] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah, role reversal.

[21:45] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, not even. I didn't treat him like a child or anything, but caregiver.

[21:50] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah, caregiver.

[21:51] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And I felt gratified by that, to have that be the relationship at the end, I think. Should we talk about your situation with your mom?

[22:09] DENNIS L. HALL: Sure. So, for a number of years, I was concerned about what the state of my mom and stepdad's minds were. And my cousins were also. My mom was losing. My mom was a great cook. She was losing her ability to figure out how to make meals. My cousins were taking meals individually packed with instructions of how to take this packet and put it together with this thing and make a little salad to make a good meal. And even that got beyond her ability. I was in the investment business. I had clients in California where my parents lived. About every three months, I would go see them and I would tell them, well, I have to go see some clients today. And I was going out looking at assisted living facilities to try to figure out, okay, when the time. Yeah. On the QT, they didn't know. When the time comes, I wanted to know what were the options? What might I be able to do? And I'll say this as a suggestion to those listening. Share your end of life wishes and your end of life plans and papers with at least one of your children, if not all of your children. Because my parents had made plans, but my stepdad wouldn't tell me what they were. He was very secretive, very protective. I was going to take it down.

[24:11] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Paranoid was what he was.

[24:12] DENNIS L. HALL: Thank you. Thank you. So when the big change finally happened, we were here in Boise. We were at our grandson's first birthday party, and I got a call from one of their neighbors that said, something is wrong. Your stepdad is looking very feeble as he goes to get the mail, and he doesn't go get the mail every day. I immediately made plans to fly to California. I got one of my cousins to go with me. So the plan was, I was going to take my stepdad to the emergency room. She would stay with my mom. It ended up that my stepdad was. Had leukemia. He was taken by ambulance from him.

[25:04] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Until that point, not diagnosed, undiagnosed.

[25:07] DENNIS L. HALL: Right. He was taken by ambulance to the VA in Fresno, and he never left. Within two months, he was deceased. But we also knew that my mom couldn't stay in the home by herself, and we had to make plans for her to go somewhere. And in this situation, because it was just her, the best thing was to go to Fresno, where all the family was. And there was.

[25:41] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: You didn't mention they did not live in Fresno.

[25:44] DENNIS L. HALL: Right. They didn't live in Fresno. They lived about an hour away, and it would have been too much of a hardship for them to go back and forth to visit her. So there was a lot of scrambling we were able to get her into. At first, just independent living in this facility. She didn't last.

[26:10] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: She was very unhappy there.

[26:12] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[26:13] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Because she was so confused.

[26:14] DENNIS L. HALL: Well, she was very, very confused. One of the saddest things with mom, on the day we were going to leave the house, and I was taking her to the California armenian home, she was sitting on the side of her bed, and she was just. She just didn't know what to do. She was so very frustrated. She didn't know what to make of things. And I said, this is the point where you just have to trust me. You just have to trust me. I know what we're doing, and it's for. For your benefit. She didn't last, I think, two weeks in the independence, in the apartment.

[27:01] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah.

[27:02] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah. And they assessed her, and she needed to go into the nursing side of things. Meanwhile, you had come and we were going through the house and trying to figure out what to do. And our son Garrett came from Seattle. And from then on, it was like every three months at least. And then it was every two months, getting on a plane, going to California, checking on her, checking with the medical people, checking with the staff of the armenian home, which were very good. We'd have a meeting. Every time I went, they'd give me an assessment of how she's doing. That went on for what, five and a half years.

[27:48] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Not quite sure how long it was.

[27:50] DENNIS L. HALL: I think it was. And unfortunately, you know, I say, well, my mom lived to almost 103. And people would say, oh, that's wonderful. No, I'm sorry.

[28:04] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: The last four or so weren't so hot.

[28:06] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah. Because, I mean, we had a big hundredth birthday party, and.

[28:12] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And she was pretty with it for that.

[28:14] DENNIS L. HALL: She really. She really liked that. Yeah.

[28:19] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: The grand. The grandsons were there.

[28:21] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah.

[28:22] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: From Boise and from Seattle, and friends were there, and we, Garrett, with his creative stuff, he helped us set everything up and all the decorations and everything. Yeah. It was. It was just great.

[28:36] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah. And she put on, you know, a good front, I think, at least. A good front, you know, saying hi to everybody.

[28:45] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, and all the armenian relatives had got their pictures taken with her, and I think she enjoyed it. I think she had settled in a little more by then. They, she had somebody who did her hair regularly, and that.

[28:57] DENNIS L. HALL: Oh, yeah, that was important, too.

[28:58] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Very, very important.

[29:00] DENNIS L. HALL: That was very important. And one of my cousins did her nails, and that was very important. I mean, two things.

[29:08] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: You said something a little while back that I was going to remark on, and that was that it's important to have, take time to have your parents or your loved ones tell you their wishes, and you had not had that because he was so secretive. But it reminded me of something, and that's an aspect of that, which is my dad and I, I remember sitting with him in his little apartment at West Park Village, and we went over the five wishes.

[29:45] DENNIS L. HALL: Right. Which is. It's a paper you can get online.

[29:48] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Yeah. And it has all these questions, and it has questions about your last days, but it also has more intimate questions, like how do you feel about death and things like that, things that I would have never talked to him about, but he was very at ease telling me that. And I was happy that I'd had that time because it's the kind of conversation you don't have with a parent when you're growing up, but as two adults, you can have it. And I was very grateful for it. And I'm very sorry that you didn't.

[30:24] DENNIS L. HALL: Ever have something like that, just as an explanation. The reason why is that basically, for most of my mom's second marriage, I never had a good conversation with her because he would always interfere. He would always.

[30:41] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: He was very controlling.

[30:42] DENNIS L. HALL: He was very controlling. And if she started to say something, he would say, oh, you know, that's Bluey. We were never without him around. Once in a while, I could take her shopping and in a brief period of time, have a conversation with her, but I was never able to have those intimate, personal conversations the way that you were with your dad. And by the time I was, when she was in the California armenian home, her mind had kind of moved on and she was nothing. She was not able to really express herself. But it was an interesting time. I remember going to the armenian home one time, and one of the nurses says to me, your mom has such a lovely voice. Well, how is it, you know, that she kind of sits outside the room in the hall and she sings old hymns?

[31:54] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Oh, my gosh.

[31:55] DENNIS L. HALL: I said, you're kidding. So I started taking links to recordings, and she and I would go outside there was a fountain outside. And we'd sit by the fountain. That was our favorite place to just go and sit or sit and visit. And I started playing on my iPhone these old, like, Tennessee Ernie Ford hymns. And she would sing along with some of them. And she was going to church on Sunday mornings. And someone told me about that, that she really loved to sing. So it was interesting having that. That side of her. Yeah, that side of her come out. And one of the hardest things about her decline and death was figuring out where she wanted to be buried. I wanted desperately to find that out of. My father was buried in a town about 20 miles away. Her then husband, my stepdad, was going to be buried in the town in which they lived and was buried in that town. And which one did she want? She would say, oh, you decide. And I just. I didn't want to have that. And one day we were talking about my dad, and I said something, was he your great love? And he was. And I said, you want to be buried with him? And she said, yes. And that was such a relief. Such a relief. And we had a great graveside service for her. She was actually cremated. That was the only way she could be buried with him. And we had a number of my cousins and some of my stepdad's family came. I appreciate that. And we had a nice meal afterwards. And she would have loved what we did. We had. We in Hanford, California, lots of armenian food. We had lots of armenian food. And then we all walked down to the superior dairy where she used to go when she was younger and had ice cream or an ice cream sundae or whatever it would have been. And it was a fitting conclusion.

[34:50] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, speaking of fitting, what we were going to talk about this all leads up to is that then we had, immediately after her funeral, started talking about, what do we want to do to make this easier or easiest on our kids.

[35:14] DENNIS L. HALL: We didn't want them getting on a plane and flying to Montana every month or two.

[35:19] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: We have one son in Boise, one son in Seattle, both of whom we love very much. However, our son in Seattle hates the sight of blood. And our son in Boise and his wife are both er doctors. So we thought if we fall apart or as we fall apart, we'd probably be kinder to let that happen in Boise than in Seattle. And so we. Fairly quickly then, a lot quicker than we had even planned, for different reasons. Somebody was going to offer to buy our house before we put it on the market. And then our son in Seattle, as we were driving to Boise, just to look around sent us a link to a house that turned out to be around the corner from our son in Boise, and we had to talk to him about how would you feel about us being in your lap?

[36:21] DENNIS L. HALL: He and his wife both checked with friends of theirs who had relatives or parents living around the corner, and everyone agreed. And how's it worked out? How's it worked out?

[36:33] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, it's a lot easier to have grandkids drop by if they feel like it than making an appointment to go halfway across town in a half an hour or something, so. And we don't get any other into each other's business unless invited, I think. And so far, we haven't fallen apart, so we, and it's closer to drive to Seattle so we can see both kids and the grandkids all get together. But when we told people we were doing this, this was the reason I wanted to bring this to a greater audience is there were a lot of people who said to us, when we said we were moving from Billings, where we'd lived for 40 years and I'd grown up, they said, oh, I wish my parents would do that. They said, that is so smart, but we can't get them to move.

[37:31] DENNIS L. HALL: Yeah.

[37:32] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: And so all I'd say is, this has been an adventure. It's been, we've made new friends, we've had new endeavors. I think it's been great. And both of us are fairly outgoing, and so that helps. I'm sure it would be harder on somebody who's very introverted, although maybe nothing, be in a different house. But anyway, it's. I'd highly suggest someone think about their future. And now that we've hit, when you turned 80, I thought, oh, my gosh, that is old. I figured we were getting into that area.

[38:18] DENNIS L. HALL: Well, it's worked well. I miss Montana.

[38:24] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: I do, too. I miss the geography. I miss the neighborhood of the state.

[38:28] DENNIS L. HALL: The familiarity and whatnot. But I enjoy being here, and I thank you for having been part of the reasons that it's worked. I just, I do. I think the ability to make that change was a huge decision. I thought we did it quite well. The move was interesting, but I I'm glad we are where we are for the reasons that we decided to move in the first place.

[39:00] ROBYN BUTLER-HALL: Well, and I'm glad we are the partnership that we are.

[39:03] DENNIS L. HALL: I am, too. I am, too. Thanks for being my partner back at.