Diane Tucker and Moya Nordlund

[00:07] DIANE TUCKER: So, my name is Diane Tucker. I'm 68 years old. Today's date is Friday, November 12, 2021. I'm in Birmingham, Alabama. My partner's name is Maureen and she is my one small step conversation partner.

[00:26] MAUREEN NORDLAND: My name is Maureen Nordland. I'm 67 years old. Today is Friday, November 12, 2021. I am in Birmingham, Alabama, and my partner's name is Diane.

[00:45] DIANE TUCKER: So the reason that I wanted to do this interview and participate in one small step is that I realize that I'm almost completely able to edit what kind of information I get by the news outlets I choose to listen to and the people that are in my circle that my. It can be very self reinforcing. One of the parts of my professional life is I'm a psychologist. And I realized that when I get to really hear from people, then I can understand how they came to believe or to think what they do. But that only happens in that little segment of my life. And so I was excited to have an opportunity to talk openly and honestly with someone that I just don't know what the overlaps and distinctions may be in terms of the way we think.

[01:57] MAUREEN NORDLAND: For me, I have always listened to Storycorps on NPR, and one day, my daughter talked to me about this one small step project, and I had not heard of it, but she sent me the link, and I don't know how she got a hold of it. And I guess someone contacted her, and she said, mom, you should be the one doing it. So I said, okay, I'll send in and see what happened. My background affords me all kinds of viewpoints because I have a brother who lives in Australia, Melbourne, Australia. But my home, originally, home country, is Hong Kong, and I spent quite a bit of time there. So I'm getting news from Hong Kong outlets, and my brother will send me all kinds of news links, news articles from outlets he gets in Melbourne. So I get a lot, and sometimes I think it's rather confusing because you get the same story from very opposing, and I don't know whom to believe, and you really have to sit back. And then I realized that every country, everybody has their own interest in mind when they put out anything into their news media. So I like to listen to somebody else from this immediate area tell me something that I don't see or I don't hear.

[03:45] DIANE TUCKER: So, this is Moya's bio. She was born and raised in british Hong Kong, attended Anglican Church School from kindergarten through grade 13. She then came to the US to attend the Eastman School of Music. She married an american swedish physicist and had three children while teaching public school music in the city school district of Rochester, New York. She moved to Birmingham in 1990 when her husband assumed a faculty position at UABDH. She then went to University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa for a doctorate in education and then taught at Samford University until retirement in 2015.

[04:45] MAUREEN NORDLAND: And this is Diane Tucker She is a retired university professor who grew up in Iowa. She has lived in Birmingham for 37 years, and she's concerned about inequities in opportunity, including education, and the questioning of fact based thinking to make decisions.

[05:10] DIANE TUCKER: So one of the things I would love to know from Moya's bio is how your experience growing up in Hong Kong has been a lens for you to view what it's like to live in the US. How do you think you see things differently because of your experience growing up in Hong Kong?

[05:39] MAUREEN NORDLAND: When I grew up in Hong Kong, it was a british colony, so politics was non existent. We were governed by administrators and I. British England, you know, british. And there were no elections and everybody was fine. It was a colony. And I am kind of surprised that today, if I go back to Hong Kong, they talk about democracy all the time, especially people whom I say, where do you get your idea of democracy? Because they have never experienced real democracy. And so I'm always wondering if their sense of democratic system is kind of romanticized. And I have also lived in Sweden for a period of time as well as in England. And I am always surprised at how passive people in Sweden are. They will go along with whatever the government said, and they are happy. Their life is easy. They have bomber drug, which is like child support, monthly child support to encourage people to have more children, because you actually get more after the second baby, a certain amount for first, for a certain amount for second, and then when you get a third, there's a bump up. At least it was the case when I was there. I don't know if they had changed that. And now when I go back to Hong Kong and I look at things and I said, okay, why is it that all of a sudden Hong Kong think they are at least a democratic city? It was never. It was never such, and it was never going to be one. And also my younger brother, who's in Australia, he will tell me that in Australia, things, well, they are a democratic country, but the police are rough. If they want to stop riot or whatever, they will do whatever it will take, whatever it means for them to stop the riotous. You know, in this country, in Hong Kong, you talk about police brutality and things like that. But it's happening in a lot of countries outside of us, and I don't think people complain about that as much as we do in this country. I might be saying a little bit too much about what I believe and how I see things here with Diane. I would like to know what you see as the main difference between where you grew up and where you end up being in terms of the politics, demographics, the social situations. So Iowa and Alabama?

[08:58] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah. Well, Iowa, when I was growing up in the 1950s and sixties, Iowa is almost completely white. I think there may have been two or three african american students, probably more than that in my high school. But my experience was very much things like race were not an issue because there was just so little interaction, and I was completely sheltered from what was happening in terms of civil rights demonstrations, etcetera. I don't think I even knew what happened in Birmingham when I was growing up. I was just very clueless. And I think at the time, and my sense of Iowa at that time was of being kind of salt of the earth good people, not particularly politically energized, but with good values and leaning conservatively, but nothing in a reflexive manner. And I think that's changed. I think that, like a lot of parts of the country, there's a feeling of folks being threatened and the, you know, the. I think it's a more conservative place now than it was when I was growing up. And it's also changed because there was a migration of people of color and, and folks that were not economically succeeding from the larger cities like Chicago, to rural places and small towns like where I grew up. And that has changed. Changed. Iowa, coming to the south, I was pretty mystified for quite a while. And I just. I feel, yeah, that I. That I still am kind of mystified in the sense that. My sense is that in everyday contexts, people get along really well and work together in a cheerful, respectful, positive way. But I also am aware of the strong undercurrents of people of color who have had to fight uphill battles to get where they are and feel. And I also am much more aware of race and poverty now than I ever was when I was growing up in Iowa and realize that my understanding is very much as an outsider and that I've benefited from, you know, growing up in a middle class home and having educational opportunities and all those things in ways that not everybody has had the similar opportunity. And I don't quite know what to do about that. But I feel much more like I have a lot to learn in the south. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[12:39] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Yeah.

[12:42] DIANE TUCKER: Good question, though. Who's been the most influential person in my life, and what did they. What did they teach? Who has been the most influential person in your life, and what did they teach you? I probably would. For me, I would probably say my graduate mentor that I did my dissertation with, he was. Been a very important influence. And one of the things I learned from him is he was very busy, an influential scientist, and always had many things. He was, and I would say, so, Kim, how are you doing? He'd just say, business as usual. And I learned that if one chooses to be busy and have a lot of responsibility, it was important not to then complain about it. That okay? Yeah, I've got a lot of things that are due, but that's. It's business as usual. This is just the life I've chosen to. And, yeah.

[13:59] MAUREEN NORDLAND: For me, I think the most influential person in my life is my father, even though I probably would not have thought of him as such a person maybe 2030 years ago. As I get older, I find myself to be more and more like you, like him, and I would be thinking about what he would have done in such and such situations. When I was growing up, my father and I fought a lot, and I am the only girl in the family, and I was the one person who would stand up to him. And my brothers will always tell me to be the one to go talk to my father if they have a request or something, because they think I will get further. My father is a very honorable man, and he has a very bad temper, and I think my bad temper, which I hope I'm taming that as I get older, has come from him. But he is a very knowledgeable and a very sincere person. He. He reads all the time, and he always told me to read, read. That's where you. You can learn about all kinds of things. The one difference is when he reads something, he remembers. When I read something, I forget that's. That's a problem there. He will remember everything he read, and he would continuously remind me to take all. A few points into consideration before making a decision. So I think for that reason, I think he has influenced me the most, especially as I get older and started, you know, kind of looking back on my life.

[16:08] DIANE TUCKER: Okay, my personal political values. Um, I. I really. I think that. I mean, I'm very much. I think, you know, politically a liberal, and. And I think that comes from feeling that if we all are willing to, you know, have enough, but nothing to hoard resources and are genuinely compassionate and willing to share, that there's enough for all of us. And I think that. And I also believe, largely from the people I've come to know through being a. A psychologist and working with supportive and palliative care, that, you know, there can be very good people who just don't really have a chance, because they're never going to have, you know, be able to make an adequate living and. And just. And there's kind of a cycle of poverty and getting involved with the law and that sort of thing, that it's pernicious. And when people don't have role models that help them know something different is possible, they get penalized, and it's not an easy thing to fix. But I just feel that we. We give too much advantage to people that are already wealthy and to businesses that are already very successful. And if we spread those resources more equitably and more thoughtfully, that we could, as a country, be much stronger and our people happier and healthier.

[18:28] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Can you follow up on that? Diane, you think you are saying that if there is a way to spread the wealth more equitably, can you think of a way that actually will work in a country such as ours?

[18:46] DIANE TUCKER: Well, I'm not an expert. I think that the idea of actually taxing not only the income, but the wealth of people so that you don't take it all away. But there's some expectation that people that have lots of resources contribute proportionally to the country as a whole and to opportunities for others. But the actual how to do that, I think, is, you know, is above my pay grade. You know, and I. You know, I'm personally fortunate enough that I've been saving money since I was in graduate school. And, you know, and so now I realized I have more money than I will probably ever need, not because I inherited it or it's just because I was careful. And so I feel like, okay, now I can give a lot, and I always. I mean, but I've been giving a lot of money away, and it's great. It feels so good to decide. These are the causes I want to support and to just do that on a free, on a regular basis, and. But there's no reason why I need to hoard more than I'm gonna need.

[20:23] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I do agree that there's something wrong with our economic system. One of the things that my brother tend to let me know from his perspective from Australia is that for a country like China today, it being an autocratic country, it's ruled by one man and he calls all the shots. He is able to say, okay, Beijing, Shanghai, you guys have gobs of money. We're going to take the money from there and send it to the inland, to the villages, to the country folks who had very little money. In that sense, they equalize the wealth. You can never imagine the us government saying, okay, New York, California, whatever taxes, you have the money, let's send it to Mississippi or Arkansas where they need such assistance. You know, it's not never going to happen. So I was always thinking, for a such a so called ideal democratic country like United States, how are you ever going to be able to spread the wealth? It seems like the wealthy are always going to be wealthier, the poor are always going to be poorer. Now, another thing I tend to think about is me as an immigrant. I am a first generation immigrant. And for me, and for a lot of people, I know we came to the United States for one purpose and it's education. But I think the more recent immigrants, a lot of them are coming for economic reasons, thinking that there are better jobs that pay better. We were here for a better education, and not without thinking what will come after the education. Because I was actually thinking of going back to Hong Kong after my education. I just ended up marrying someone and staying in this country. And then the other thing I thought about a lot was my father's, my parents generation, my generation, a lot of people are talking about saving. You don't spend everything you make. And I noticed that the generation between my generation and my children's generation, my oldest son is 39. Now there is a generation that they are very well off. They get good jobs, they graduate from everything is peaceful, and they made lots of money. And then the first thing they knew is they go and buy bmws and whatever and spend that money. But I'm looking at my children now. My youngest is 32 and she is saving a lot more. She is, you know, that generation, I don't know what Gen X, Gen why, I don't know which one she belongs. But her generation and her friends, they are not going out. They are a lot more careful. My youngest daughter and her husband both are engineers and they both have good jobs and they are very careful what they spend. They could definitely spend a lot more. They could definitely bought a lot of houses, but they did not. They chose not to. And I just can't see hope in that. You know, there was a time that you just banned it all because it will be always coming in. Money will always be coming for every reason people at least thought that way. But now we are realizing, no, the world needs taken care of, our earth needs taken care of. There are a lot more people whom we don't know who really can use a hand and help. In terms of my political standpoint, I think I'm very independent. I support certain things from either side. It's like, as an educator, I'm both a behavioralist and cognitive activists, because there are truths in both ends and everything is situational. So you have to look at each situation and decide. Plus, I'm always open to changing my mind because I am always learning new things. So I am not sure that whatever I believe in is always going to be the right thing. With just one exception. I believe the Bible.

[25:17] DIANE TUCKER: Good. In your teaching at Samford, were you teaching music or teaching education?

[25:27] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Okay, both.

[25:30] DIANE TUCKER: And what's your instrument?

[25:32] MAUREEN NORDLAND: My instrument is piano. So I was a public school teacher, and my terminal degree is in education, but with music as emphasis, music education and early childhood education. So I was a teacher trainer. I taught teachers, people who are going to become music teachers. That was my primary role. I also taught a lot of history and theory classes. So when I retired, I was chair of the music academics.

[26:05] DIANE TUCKER: Good.

[26:07] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Tell me more about your work at UAB and how that interacts with society at large, especially in the Birmingham area.

[26:17] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah, that's. I had several chapters in my professional life. When I came to UAB. I clearly identified as a scientist, and I was. My research focus was in neuroscience and developmental physiology, and that was being an educator was very secondary, and I wasn't very good at it either, I don't think. And then a little over halfway through my career, I was given the opportunity to develop an honors program in science and technology for undergraduates. So it was a four year experience for students to help them have the skills they would need to be successful as scientists. And I just. I loved that experience, and I think we did a really good job. And one of the. And I. One part of what I brought to that is a realization that I'd known some really brilliant science folks who were never very successful because they didn't have good interpersonal skills, and they just, you know, it quashed their ability to really have an impact. And so, you know, I would take these 50 nerds that came into the program every year, and they would form a really strong community among themselves, and I would have them working in teams. They did projects that not only benefited the university or the community as part of the program, to learn some leadership in teamwork and how to make things happen. And so I really believe that they came out of that experience with good teamwork skills, much better interpersonal skills and scientific thinking skills, but also just an awareness that it was important to give back and having some skills to do that. And I'm still in touch with my alumni, and they take that foundation and they apply it. I just had a call last week with one of my alumni who's developing an advocacy organization for a rare genetic disease, and she's applying a lot of the things that we developed within the science and technology program in this other context. And it's like, yes, but that's a really interesting question to not ask about how what I've done has made a difference in the world, because I think that's an important question for us to ask as we get, you know, at the end of the, our professional careers, you know, what, what have we done that's really made an impact? Yeah. How would you answer that same question?

[29:22] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Well, I have students who, former students, who are now teaching all over Birmingham, state of Alabama and beyond. And I always taught them my successes measure at how much better you are than me as a teacher. So if you are only as good as I am, then I would have failed. And I have had many students, I mean, teachers of the year from different districts over the years. And as far as I know, a lot of them are very, very successful where they are, and they are still teaching. They have not quit yet. And I believe that is the important thing is for it to keep going on educationally. And I believe music is very, very important in a person's life, not just the academics. In fact, it's probably as important, if not more than academics, to balance out your life.

[30:23] DIANE TUCKER: Yes, I would concur. I think that having outlets, whether it be music or art or, you know, some kind of expressive opportunity is really, really important.

[30:36] MAUREEN NORDLAND: And to be successful in whatever instrument you are playing, not to a professional level, but to be decently good, you really have to work hard on it. Most people, it just doesn't come easily. And that takes a lot of patience, a lot of grit, a lot of hard work, a lot of everything that is needed, the skills you need to become successful in whatever profession you end up, job work you end up doing.

[31:10] DIANE TUCKER: Yes, I agree. One of the things I did at UAB, starting in 2015, I would take one art class a semester. Well, it's not that I'm talented. I just wanted to learn, and I had to work very, very hard. It helped me realize what it's like to be a novice. And also it taught me that if I would just really work at it, that I could come up with something better than I thought I could. And I actually earned an art degree. I got it last, maybe, but it was that idea that it didn't come easily, but that was okay, and I didn't have to be the best in the class. I could just do what I can do and try to have my own. You know, they talk about your artistic voice, but I think things like music can be very humbling, because unless you happen to be able to either be talented and work hard, you're not going to be the very best. You can be good, but it's humbling, you know, it's.

[32:25] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Yes. One of the reasons why I am really fascinated, interested, and decided to really get into education is because I realized I'm a very different learner. When I was growing up in Hong Kong, speed was valued. So in all the tests, they are rote memory. You have to crank out a lot of facts in a very short amount of time. And I always did very poorly in those tests, and I always felt that I was very dumb. And when I first went to Eastman, I was most afraid of the history type of courses because that required a lot of actual memorization. I thought it that way. So over time, I figure out a way to teach myself. And it's kind of like graphing facts, graphing these and making webs, kind of like webbing. I mean, webbing didn't exist back when I. In the seventies, but that's what basically what I did. And then I realized I have. I was a very relationship, you know, I have to make relationships among the facts in order to remember the facts. But then I realized once I made the relationships, then I can come up with a lot more insight and understanding of what I was trying to learn. And then I realized that when you are learning, there are different ways to learn and there are different kinds of learners. So that made me get into education more. But I also figure out that for teachers, like my former students, who, or becoming teachers, for them to be successful, they have to really get to know themselves what kind of learner they are. I said, always recognize your strengths, use those strengths, and then work on your weaknesses, and then you will be a better teacher than you think you could. Because, you know, when people are just trying to imitate and copy what great teachers do, but if that's not their style or they that's not with the way they function best, they would not be very successful. So I always tell my students, former students. I still call them students, my former students, they are teachers. Now, you all have to really get to know yourself. What can you do the best? What are your strengths? And use them. Use them to your advantage when you are out there teaching, but always work on your weakness. And so you have to know both. And that's why I think I'm still learning. I'm still working on myself, and I will never be able to remember a whole lot of facts. Memory is not my strong suit.

[35:17] DIANE TUCKER: Yes, I understand. That's so interesting, because when I was newly developing the science and technology honors program, I wanted the students to really kind of question their own understanding and thereby deepen it, you know, of scientific concepts and things like that. And it's so easy to learn a word and think, you know, what it means, but then you don't really, especially, you know, these complicated concepts. And so I had the opportunity to be part of an educational method that was being researched with an NSF grant. And one of the key parts of it is concept mapping, like the introduction to a scientific paper, and then using cartoons or some kind of visual to draw out the method by which the experiment was conducted and then redrawing the data figures so that they show particular conclusions. But it was the idea of not just passively looking at or reading something, but taking it and digging into it and trying to understand. Okay, how would I take all of these ideas and how do they relate to each other? You know, the relationships you talked about and. And when I. I mean, and I observed over and over the power of doing that, because if you do it thoughtfully, then you're questioning. Now, okay, I've got these two things linked, but are they really? Or is there something in the middle that mediates it? You know, I mean, it's just. It's such a valuable experience to learn to question your own thinking. I think. And I think another piece from what you said is that I think learning or understanding is deeper when you come at it from different points of view. And just, there's no magic one way to make it happen with what you said.

[37:29] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I just thought of another thing that you mentioned earlier, how to, you know, make wealth more equitable. I really think education is the way to it, but it's not just education in general, but real educators who understand how. How to get a person to learn. Because until a person is willing and want to learn, it's very hard to make them learn something and for them to see the value and the joy of learning and knowing more and realize they can do it. And that's, I think it's what's plaguing some of the lower performing schools, lower socioeconomic status students, because they feel so hopeless, they don't see the reason for learning to. But for them to better their station in life, for them to get themselves out of poverty, they really have to see the value of education.

[38:37] DIANE TUCKER: But I think it may be. I agree with you. I think that there's a challenge when I. You don't have any role models of people that have successfully navigated from whatever the circumstance is to be able to make it through high school and get into college or learn. Some have examples of people who have navigated it well, and I have, I got involved with a partner and bought real estate in Birmingham starting in 2004. And our strategy was to buy, what I wanted to do was to buy houses or apartment buildings in, you know, kind of lower income neighborhoods and make affordable housing available that was well maintained. And, but, you know, my experience that we've had is that often some of the houses are, you know, maintained. Okay. And the tenants are responsible. Others, they're just not.

[40:02] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I know.

[40:03] DIANE TUCKER: I know what you, and when I look at the kids growing up in some of the families, I just don't see where they have a role model of somebody who bothers to get themselves to school every day and bothers to do their homework. And, you know, it's, I just think there's a lot of potential barriers. And if you come from a home where there's a clear expectation that you're going to, you know, get through high school and get into next training, then you have people to help you overcome, then you're not going to stall out. But I think that it's so hard sometimes when people don't have a role model.

[40:50] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Well, I think the role model issue probably, like, we cannot be real role models for them because we are so different from the way they are raised. But I think for someone who has come out of poverty, come out of similar situations and have made it, and they are such people, they can become very powerful role models, number one. Number two, I think for people like us, we really should note, give up hope. I mean, somebody has to keep trying and never give up, because if we say, oh, this is such a hopeless situation, like, you got into real estate and you said they were not maintained, so why bother? If we give up, then they are just really hopeless. It takes a long time. It really takes a long time to get someone out of these situations.

[41:49] DIANE TUCKER: Yep.

[41:51] MAUREEN NORDLAND: But also, they would have to take some responsibility. We have to somehow get them to take responsibility of themselves and what they do and the choices they make.

[42:03] DIANE TUCKER: Well, I think that we, you know, that, and my sense is that you would be excellent in this role, but we can be mentors. Not in the sense of being a role model or example, necessarily, but, you know, I've certainly had, and I'm sure you have a number of students that, you know, they knew I had their back and I was going to, you know, do what I do everything I could to help them have.

[42:36] MAUREEN NORDLAND: There's such an organization in Birmingham called Empire ministries. They can use a lot of mentors like that to help people just get a GED, get them to be able to keep a job, to just coach them, to be a mentor, to be a friend, to guide them, to walk beside them through these situations. I remember when I was still teaching, I had a student who is african american. He didn't have a car. We had to do so much clinical experiences, and he had to be out in the school at a certain time. And he called me at 06:00 and said my ride fell through. So I just told my husband, got to go, I was going to drive to pick him up and get him there. And my husband said, your job is 24/7 doesn't stop. And. And then I realized, but he made it. He. He's now teaching in Houston, Texas.

[43:42] DIANE TUCKER: So awesome. Yeah, yeah. Yep.

[43:48] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I think our time is, is almost up, and it's so nice to chat with you.

[43:54] DIANE TUCKER: You know, I've enjoyed it, too, very much. And do you still play piano?

[44:00] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I still play. I. I have been playing in our church recently because we are forming a new church, so everything is in flux and I help out when I can.

[44:10] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah.

[44:11] MAUREEN NORDLAND: But it's always fun.

[44:13] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah. What are the composer's work that you enjoy most? Playing?

[44:18] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I like Bach. Bach is cleansing. To me. It just is good. It calms me. It just cleans me. That's all I can say.

[44:31] DIANE TUCKER: My husband has a background in music, and I've learned from being around him that people's brains really do work differently because he understands and hears music in such a deeper way than I do and a more nuanced way. But Bach is, for him, is kind of a spiritual experience.

[44:56] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I think there are things that are good to listen to and there are things that are good to play. I love playing bog. I love playing Brahms. It feels good in the hands. I love listening to foray. I don't like to play fore. So, yeah, I think there are things that are good to play and good to. Something's good to listen to.

[45:23] DIANE TUCKER: Mm hmm. Yeah. Have you been? Did you get to go to the symphony the last time they played?

[45:34] MAUREEN NORDLAND: No, I. Yesterday. Yesterday they played.

[45:38] DIANE TUCKER: They're playing tonight and tomorrow night, and then it was about a month ago. Yeah. They did Tchaikovsky's first value in Concerto, and it was just amazing. I know.

[45:50] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Yeah. My daughter updates me on things happening there, and they need a lot of support. Yeah. Especially coming out of COVID Yep. Just getting them going again.

[46:05] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah. How long ago did you retire?

[46:07] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I retired in 2015. Same time my husband. We decided that it's time we want to. To go together and do something different together. So we are right now very physical. We go to the gym daily. We work out every morning when we have the chance, and we do a lot of babysitting of grandkids, and I love working in the garden. So my trainer. I have a trainer. She said that you are training your academic head for physical.

[46:41] DIANE TUCKER: You know, I said, yeah, that's great. That's wonderful. Yeah.

[46:48] MAUREEN NORDLAND: How about you?

[46:50] DIANE TUCKER: I did. Well, I just retired in June, so I am still adjusting, I think. And we shortly afterward got a puppy, and so it's a bit like having a baby again, but. And I either go to the gym or go kind of walking or hiking most every day. And I'm still taking art classes at UAB. I'm taking a silk screen printing class this fall.

[47:17] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Isn't that fun?

[47:19] DIANE TUCKER: It is. Yes, it really is. It's a privilege.

[47:23] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Yeah. I do chinese painting, and.

[47:26] DIANE TUCKER: Oh. Oh, I would love to see some of what you do.

[47:30] MAUREEN NORDLAND: I enjoy that.

[47:32] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah. When I was in college, I took an oriental art course, and one. One day, the professor who was Chinese just did some ink paintings for us, and I took a couple of them, and I still have them. It was so special to me. Just the brushstrokes were.

[47:55] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Well, there's a chinese thing that said, inside your heart, you have the complete picture, completed picture, because with the brush painting, you have to go so fast. You cannot paint over basically one stroke. And that is. So you have to have the entire picture in your mind when you begin, and you just have to go. That's kind of interesting.

[48:19] DIANE TUCKER: Great. Well, good. Well, this has been great. Yes, this is good. That would be great.

[48:29] MAUREEN NORDLAND: That would be great. It's awesome. It's awesome talking to you.

[48:32] DIANE TUCKER: Yeah. I've enjoyed it a lot of. And thank you for sharing your background, because you started out by saying that the different places you've lived and the different kind of perspectives have shaped you and I can really see the wealth of that.

[48:51] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Yeah. Sometimes I just don't know who I am anymore.

[48:57] DIANE TUCKER: Well, being able to look through different lenses is a really good thing. Yeah.

[49:04] MAUREEN NORDLAND: Anyway, you take care.

[49:05] DIANE TUCKER: You too. I guess he'll be back to give us our instructions. Isn't there something else we have to do? Yes.