Domenick Casuccio and Catherine Hammond

[00:04] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: My name is Domenick Casuccio I am 44 years old. The date is September 18, 2024. I am in Richmond, Virginia at the Library of Virginia and I'm here with Katherine, my One Small step conversation partner.

[00:20] KATHERINE HAMMOND: My name is Katherine Hammond. I am 70 years old. The date is September 18, 2024. I'm in Richmond, Virginia in the Library of Virginia, next to the Capitol downtown. I'm here with Domenick my one small step conversation partner.

[00:46] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Katherine is one of four sisters. However, the oldest sister died too young, leaving a big void. As a child in the Tennessee mountains, she spent many days outdoors. They moved to Virginia with her mom after their parents divorced. We moved many times after college, she lived in New York City and loved it. She returned to Virginia to marry her husband 40 years ago. They have two sons and it has been an honor of her life to be their mother after family. She cares most about nature than law and justice because she is an attorney.

[01:20] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Domenick is the oldest of four sons. He grew up on a farm in rural West Virginia. He was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school. He no longer goes to church or supports the Catholic Church. He's engaged to his partner of four plus years and they just bought a new home and are planning their spring 2024 wedding. I guess you already had it. Congratulations.

[01:47] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I suspended that a long time ago.

[01:48] KATHERINE HAMMOND: That was a while ago. They have four dogs, a cat and a rabbit. Their politics are influenced by their community and they favor equal rights for all. Domenick why did you want to participate in One Small Step?

[02:11] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Well, I've always been interested actually as a really a product of lmr. You know, you're mixed with so many different people and different views that I really have a natural curiosity for where people come from and why they feel and believe the way they do. So it really interested me to, you know, have an up close conversation with someone that may not be the same as me.

[02:38] KATHERINE HAMMOND: So yeah, yeah, I think that LMR was definitely a good diving board for this, but mine was so long ago. I went to LMR in 1997. So it's like ancient history, but I'll never forget it, that's for sure.

[02:54] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I was a class of 2016.

[02:56] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Okay, yeah, you meet so many different people. But this particular invitation to do One Small Step intrigued me because I'm. I'm basically bewildered to a degree by how often. Every day, I mean, multiple times a day I have to hear about the United States being divided and polarized. That's somewhat perplexing to me because that's the Observation writ large. But I have not really found that in relationships daily, like just people. So I'm interested in that. And I thought, we'll see what somebody else thinks. Tell me about your life growing up.

[03:44] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Well, as you read in the bio, I grew up in an Italian American family in West Virginia. We had a small family farm. I have three younger brothers, so I'm the oldest, four now, all of which are married with multiple children. And so everyone still lives in the town that I grew up in in West Virginia. I'm the only one that left and moved to the big city for my career after I graduated from wvu. And in my bio, like we, I was raised Catholic. You know, the church was very integral in our life. Went to Catholic school then. I mean, faith was such an important part of my upbringing. And it was me and my parents, who I'm very, very close with, have had many conversations with like the scandals of the Catholic Church. And everything that we were was very well covered up when we, when I was young. But now all has come to light in the past. So it was a very difficult decision for us as a family to, you know, kind of leave the church and find that new path of faith. And so it's been a big, you know, part of adulthood for me, kind of leaving that part of my life behind because we just couldn't continue supporting a church with all of the, you know, the scandals and cover ups and all of that stuff. So that was a big thing. I did go to WVU after high school and I have a bachelor of Science in Journalism, Public relations. And that's what I've done my entire career. So I've worked in nonprofit, I've worked for the American Cancer Society back and forth. I left for five and a half years and worked for the Valentine Museum right around the corner from here and did their PR and marketing program while they were undergoing a huge multimillion dollar renovation. So rebuilt their website, did all of their reopening, marketing, all of that stuff. So it was a great rewarding experience. But it was nice for my former boss when I was with the Cancer Society before to come back and ask me to come back to the organization. And so I went back in 2017 and I've been there ever since.

[06:27] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Oh, wow. Yeah, That's a long time.

[06:29] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: So we call them boomerangs within acs. So I left and then I came back.

[06:35] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Interesting. And what do you do for fun?

[06:38] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Oh, gosh, I do lots for fun. So me. So I'm really involved in Stonewall Sports, Richmond which is an LGBTQIA plus all of the Alphabet sports league in Richmond. So we do this Sunday is our first kickball game for the season. Then after that will be dodgeball and bowling and volleyball and they do sand volleyball and they have a tennis group, they do yoga. I don't do. I don't do tennis and yoga, but they have all of that stuff offered. So anytime you want to. So it feels like I'm always, you know, either going to a practice or playing one of the those sports and I really love it. And then me and my husband, my husband is really, I guess, enamored with the drag community. So we see a lot of drag shows. I go to a lot of concerts. I just this past weekend me and my best friend went to see Edwin McCain collective soul and Hootie and the Blowfish in Virginia Beach. And then tonight we're going to see Fletcher in dc. So we go to a lot of live music too.

[07:47] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Wow, that Stonewall league sounds so cool. Because you have a built in team, you have a built in activity and it's nice.

[07:54] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I have. It's in its mix. So it's not everyone's gay. There's a lot of allies and it's really a community league, of course, founded by the LGBTQ community, but really anybody can participate if they want.

[08:09] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I might have to look into that. Yeah, it's fine.

[08:12] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: So tell me about your life growing up. And I guess I went further than.

[08:15] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I was supposed to, but.

[08:16] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: No, that's.

[08:17] KATHERINE HAMMOND: That's interesting. I'm just thinking about the similarities. I don't know why they thought we were different. So I have trouble condensing this, but I'm going to try. So I grew up on. It's really a suburb of Chattanooga, but it's Lookout Mountain. Have you ever heard of it?

[08:38] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I know Chattanooga.

[08:40] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. So Lookout Mountain just sits above it. And it was one of those things where all the dads would go downstairs down downtown to work and all the moms and kids would stay on top of the mountain and it was just very wild. I mean, in the 50s and 60s, they did not ever know where we were. They did not keep track of us. You know, same I imagine in West Virginia it was.

[09:02] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: We were typically on a 60 acre farm, but. Right.

[09:05] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Somewhere.

[09:06] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah, somewhere. But yeah, you're right. Like we could have been on the other end of the mountain and they wouldn't have known.

[09:12] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. So it had a degree of freedom. And I would say that's been my kind of driving ambition, is to be free. Whatever that might be in a minute, but yeah, I had two sisters at that time. I'm the middle, so my older and my younger. Then my parents split up. I mean, it was a strange thing because, see, my dad was in the Korean War. We were very typical of post war middle class. You know, get ahead, you know, enjoy life, all this stuff. But that war really damaged my father in a big way, apparently, now that I look back on it. So anyway, my parents split up because he had a family business. His father had started a building supply company. And he. His father died when my dad was only 22 and I don't think he knew how to run it. So it just went bankrupt. And my mother really had nothing to. She didn't have any place to turn. And we moved in with my grandmother in Stanton, Virginia. So Shenandoah Valley, it's not that far off from West Virginia.

[10:23] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Oh, no, it's very similar. I drive through Stanton to get home.

[10:26] KATHERINE HAMMOND: To West Virginia, right? And my uncle had a dairy farm, so I went there every single weekend while my mom tried to go back to school and get a job. And then things stabilized and she taught school and I was feeling like, hey, good, we're kind of a family. And then she met my stepfather and then the whole thing started over again, so we moved. And then that only lasted three years. And I had a terrible falling out with my mother internally. Like, I just totally broke from her in my. In my psyche because I felt so vulnerable and she was so unreliable. And so then.

[11:14] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: How old were you at this time? Like in teenagers?

[11:18] KATHERINE HAMMOND: 13, 12, I think. They got married when I was 12 and then they broke up again when I was 15. So I just couldn't wait to leave home. I just wanted to go away. And I ended up getting scholarship to a college in Ohio. I never saw it before I went there, but they paid for everything. So I worked at Hardee's after graduation and I got my plane ticket and I went out there with my one Samsonite suitcase and that was it. And I just basically never went home anymore. I mean, I tried, but then by then my mother had another daughter. So those are my two younger sisters. And the reason I put my death of my older sister in my bio is because she was an extremely unusual person, very charismatic. She liked to do acting. She was always on stage, children's theater, grown up theater. And she had very magnetic. People were really drawn to her. I always felt eclipsed by her. But she was important. She was strong. She was like, took over from her mother and then she Got breast cancer when she was only 41. Wow. Yeah. And she died when she was 44. So, you know, that has different effects on family. But now my sisters and I are really close. But in returning to the idea of freedom, I just kept trying to get away. Like, I went to Ohio for four years, then I went. I traveled in Central America back and forth and was a waitress. Then I moved to New York in the 70s and I had all different jobs, and I was kind of floundering around pretty poor. And then I decided I had to straighten up and I went to law school. And from then on, it was kind of a straight. Straight course. I loved it. I loved that I had a profession. Like, I liked the whole. I liked everything about it. So that was kind of awesome.

[13:26] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: You still practice law or are you retired?

[13:28] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I'm retired, yeah.

[13:30] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Where did you practice law? Were you in your own.

[13:33] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Well, I practiced in New York and then my husband is somebody. I was actually was my boyfriend earlier in my life, but he's from Charlottesville. So when we decided to get married, we chose Richmond as a compromise. And I have to say, the whole first year I lived here, all I did was fantasize about going back to New York. It was horrible. I was like, you can't find any bread anywhere. There's no bread. But that was in 1985.

[14:07] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Richmond's come a long way. Yeah. I moved here in 2004 to work for the Cancer Society. And it was interesting because I was just ready to leave West Virginia. Kind of like what you were saying, just ready to get out and start. So when I interviewed the division had all of these marketing and PR positions across the Eastern seaboard. And when I was hired, they were like, well, which one do you want? I was like, I don't care. Put me wherever you want. So they.

[14:39] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Bold move.

[14:40] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah. So, I mean, I was like, I just needed, you know, an out, you know, if you will, so. And something that would. I wanted to do in an organization that I felt passionate about. So I. Sight unseen, really. I'd been to the West End for an in person interview, but that's. That was my experience initially before coming and moving to Richmond.

[15:04] KATHERINE HAMMOND: And then did your heart just sink.

[15:06] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: When you got here somewhat? Richmond was, I mean, very different in 2004 than it is right now. I didn't have any friends. I didn't have any family. A lot of the co workers that I worked with were not like me. They were trying to set me up with their nieces, and it was just very different. You Know, I used to wear. I don't wear a ton of jewelry now, but I used to wear a lot of jewelry. And they were always like, well, why do you wear so much jewelry? And, you know, it wasn't. You know, I wasn't comfortable with coming out at work at that point. Like, there were a few people, like, my boss knew and stuff like that, but it was a very interesting time to kind of come into, you know, adulthood and kind of navigate all of that. But I really fell in love with Richmond. I lived in Kerrytown for three years and then decided to buy a home. So that was, you know, I was in the heart of, you know, culture, if you will. Right, right.

[16:08] KATHERINE HAMMOND: If you were. It was the liveliest part.

[16:10] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah, it was at that time, for sure. And then, you know, kind of wanted to calm down a bit and, you know, and finally decided to lay down some roots. And I bought my first home in the West End and continued my career path with the Cancer Society, and I really love that. And I really loved working for the Valentine as well and learning all about the history of Richmond and just the political turmoil and the wars and all the rich history that's in this area was really interesting to me, and I worked with a bunch of really awesome people that knew that were way smarter than me. So I always like to be around people that are smarter than me, so.

[17:00] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Right, right. Another bold move. Yeah. Well, yeah, the Valentine is a treasure trove, so, I mean, you could give all kinds of tours or guidance, more than I could. But that's. That's really something. I mean, they have. One thing I love about that place is the costume collection. I would like to just see that, but they don't have much display space.

[17:22] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah. Yeah. So there's not. I mean, the public space is. I mean, the. I mean, there's a huge collection of costume and textiles upstairs.

[17:31] KATHERINE HAMMOND: There's this.

[17:32] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: The world's largest closet, if you will.

[17:34] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Right. And valuable. And like, I know this woman from Stanton who also moved here. And in Stanton, her father had a clothes store. It was called Schwarzschild's, and it was the only place to go. Well, there was another one called the New York Dress Shop. So those were the two women's clothes stores. There were no shopping centers. Just go downtown, that's all. So her mother had designer and even couture gowns because of her husband being in the clothes business. And she. Jane, just donated one of her mother's dresses to the Valentine.

[18:15] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Oh, wow. That's amazing.

[18:17] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. But going back to what you said, so if you moved here and you felt like you couldn't be yourself because you said you didn't come out, was that a difficult period where you felt like people couldn't really get to know you?

[18:33] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yes and no. So, I mean, I came out to my family and all of that when I was in high school. So it wasn't. It was really that navigating that, you know, I was working with people that were, you know, most likely had different political views than I did, were seemingly conservative, they assumed everyone was straight, you know, that type of stuff. So I really didn't know how. I didn't want to be looked at differently if I did come out at work. So I kind of did this. I kind of downplayed my personal life at work, which it was nothing new. I mean, kind of if you're gay and that time, you know, you were sort of used to doing that, especially within, you know, the Catholic Church and private school and all of that. So it wasn't anything new, but it just. I was ready to be done with that. You know, I was ready just to be me, who I was all the time. And if you had a problem with it, fine, you know, go away. So it was just that, and it was just a few years when, you know, I did make friends and, you know, kind of created a social circle, if you will, here. And then once that happened, I was, you know, I was fine. But it was those initial time where it was really, like, the only people I saw for the day was the people in my office. And if I walked around, carry town or something like that, I really didn't have much of a social life. And I did go back to West Virginia a lot. But, I mean, it's not an easy trek up through the mountains. So.

[20:12] KATHERINE HAMMOND: No, it's formidable geographically.

[20:16] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah.

[20:16] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I think people forget that.

[20:18] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: But it was kind of like what they said about making assumptions. And I probably did make some assumptions for the people, you know, that were around me, but I didn't want to, you know, come out and be like.

[20:28] KATHERINE HAMMOND: You know, alienate somebody.

[20:32] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Exactly.

[20:32] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. Especially if they're doing fundraising because they're going to wealthy people or groups, and it's conservative, and we have.

[20:38] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I mean, we plan huge community events and walks, and, you know, I was the only person doing my job. So. And the unique thing in our organization with marketing and PR is we touch kind of like, everyone. So, you know, I was working with everybody in. In that world. There are some people that were, you know, in mission or in development or something. Where they really don't talk. You know, they don't really interact with many other people in the office. But unlike them, I was talking to everybody.

[21:10] KATHERINE HAMMOND: You were the public face.

[21:11] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: You got it.

[21:11] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That kind of goes with the job, I guess.

[21:15] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah.

[21:15] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Is that you have to be on, on stage, right? Yeah. It's interesting to me because I feel like I had to hide who I was to a really large extent. I mean, I was in my. I was in my 50s before I felt like I could say what I was thinking. Yeah, yeah. I went. I wanted to go to a large national law firm here because I was like, I'm leaving New York. I don't want to leave and I'm not going to some rinky dink law firm. But when I got there, it was exceedingly conservative. I mean, you cannot. The women. Now, I wish I could explain to them what we wore and what we had to act like. They have no concept. I mean, there were only a few of us, just a few, maybe. But anyway, I made an assumption that because they were Southern and conservative and, you know, law is conservative to begin with, that I should be, I should match, you know. But it doesn't never work. It doesn't work because you end up feeling like you'll never belong.

[22:24] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right.

[22:24] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. And see, now, from my point of view, now, I don't think that was true. I think it was more of a meritocracy. Like if you did, if you performed well at your job, which is not a social job. Yeah. I do, I do think it wasn't about what you wore really, or where you lived. It was, can you do the work? And if so, great. Yeah.

[22:50] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: And that's kind of what happened with me at the, at the American Cancer Society was I kind of proved my worth and I was really good at what I did. So then once people realized that, you know, I was, you know, helpful, beneficial, I was valuable to the team, that sort of thing, then I slowly kind of like shed that initial armor that I had and started being, you know, more myself and, you know, forming some, you know, office relationship friendships, if you will, and that type.

[23:25] KATHERINE HAMMOND: So I'm going to tell you one story that I think is really funny and descriptive, but I don't want you to think that, like, I'm not saying that women were mistreated on the scale that gay men were, because I don't think that's true. I mean, there was. We were not persecuted for being women. Okay. It was just a different thing. So what happened is, you know, we all wore. We tried to look like men, but you couldn't look like a man, so you had to wear a skirt, suit, a suit with a skirt. So Brooks Brothers suit, but a skirt with stockings, heels, very little jewelry, all of this, you know, buttoned up. And so that's how we dressed. I dressed that way. I mean, it wasn't terrible. But anyhow, the partnership track was eight years. So in 1992, I was one year before I was eligible to be elected partner. And I'd been thinking for quite a while that I thought, we should wear pants. And I say it to the other women lawyers, we should wear pants. No, no, no, no. And so then I just decided, the hell with it. I'm doing this because I love clothes. I mean, I have on jeans now, but I love. Love clothes.

[24:44] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I love clothes, too. And shoes.

[24:46] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah, and shoes. I love costumes.

[24:49] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah.

[24:49] KATHERINE HAMMOND: And so I always say, when I'm going out now, my husband says, what are you doing? I said, I'm choosing my costume because you can be whatever. So I had this to die for outfit, okay? It was perfect. It was Glen plaid trousers with a cuff, red blazer with brass buttons, a white shirt. I had the scarf, you know, a black belt, black perfect shoes. And so I go to work, and this is, you know, in the James Center. I'll give that away. And so it's all fancy. And I went in, and I went past my. My supervising partner's office, and he saw me, and he went, whoa, Hammond, come in here. And so I went in and he said, what's up? And I said, how do I look? And he said, I think it's fine. And I said, great. So I go about the day, you know, and I was out in the lobby at lunchtime waiting for the elevator, and this woman who was only a few years senior to me, maybe three or four, but she was a partner. And I think there were only maybe 15 of us out of 250 maybe. I don't know exactly. But anyway, she comes out and she grabbed my arm and said, come in here. And we had these little telephone booths where you could go talk on the phone that was wired to the wall. I have to put that in for StoryCorps. And she started yelling at me. She goes, what do you think you're doing? What in the world? You are ruining everything. Why did you come to work dressed like that? And I was like, are you kidding? And she goes, yes. What? Don't you understand what we've built up here? You are jeopardizing everything. And you are one year away from partnership. You're nuts. And I just went, okay, fine, you're entitled to your opinion. And I left. And I couldn't believe it. I was shaken up. I went downstairs and my hands were shaking because she was someone I looked up to. And so, you know, so I was the first person to wear pants. And then after that, I had a political appointment and I worked for the Attorney General. And so when I first started, there were four deputies. And each one had like a chain of command. I had civil litigation, somebody else had criminal. And so I was over there. Now this was in 90. So two years later. And I wore pants to work because I was doing it all the time then. And I found out recently, very, very recently from a woman who worked there then she said, you can't believe. She told me this this year. She said, you can't believe what happened when you came to work there as a deputy. And I said, what? And she said, well, the first day you wore pants, there were all emails going all around the office. The new deputies wearing pants, the new deputies wearing pants, the new deputies wearing pants. And I said, really? She said, yeah. She said it was fantastic because we were never allowed to do that. And the interesting thing about that is there's been one elected woman Attorney General in the history of the Commonwealth of Virginia. 1. She's from Patrick county, which you'll know over in the Southwest. Her name was Mary Sue Terry, and she was elected Attorney General. And she immediately preceded the Attorney General. I worked for Jim Gilmore, and she was adamant that the women had to do as I described to you, conform, do not ruffle the waters. And so it took an upset in the political cart to bring down the barrier about the pants.

[28:43] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Skirts versus pants. That's a great story. Did you. I don't remember who it was, but there's. Speaking of the costume and textile collection at the Valentine, there was someone. It wasn't you, was it? Like, there's a notable attorney in Richmond that wore pants to work, and one of the first women in. We had like, in the collection, the costume and textile collection at the Valentine. We have a few of her pantsuits and she was a lawyer.

[29:12] KATHERINE HAMMOND: No, no, it wasn't me. I have to find out who it was.

[29:15] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah, but I remember those, like. Cause we would do kind of the. Especially when we were under construction and renovation, we did what we called hard hat tours, but we did sort of like a behind the scenes tour, you know, cultivating donors and just building up the excitement about what the Museum was gonna be like, post renovation. And one of the stories I remember from the costume and textile curator was about this. I wish I remembered her name, but female.

[29:44] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Oh, I've got to find out. If I had known that at the time, I would have cited it as a legal precedent. I would say it's already been done.

[29:51] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: But it was someone that was notable that started wearing pants to work and kind of pushed that. And.

[30:01] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Well, if I find out it was somebody after 1992, then I'm going to challenge you.

[30:08] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: If you still have that pantsuit, you should.

[30:10] KATHERINE HAMMOND: No, I don't.

[30:13] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah. So what's. What's next? I mean, do you want to. I'm curious to know what your. Because you were talking about how the country is so divided, and so I have an interesting circle of friends, and we were actually talking about this last night. I was with my friend Jen, and she's very, you know, politically like me. Her older son is gay and married to his husband, and they live in Philadelphia. But we're very, I guess, nervous about the political climate. But when we were at drag bingo at Star Hill Brewery and we were with a mixed group of our friends, and two of which are, I call them Trump Republicans, and we were talking about how, you know, it's interesting to see how, you know, within a friend group and politically divided, and then they're so resistant to another view. And I was. And it's just interesting to me in how we can. I can have. We can have an effective conversation because Jen is very much like, I really want to talk to someone that has a different view. Like, this would be the perfect scenario for her. But I said, I was like, if it's not on Fox News, if it's not out of Trump's mouth, or if it's not from Newsmax, they're not going to. They're not going to take what you say. And I think that's an interesting part of our friend circle, is that there are people like that in navigating because we are divided, and it's trying to find that. And we just have decided we just don't talk politics.

[31:56] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Right. I hear that frequently that it's just become taboo because you don't want to cause trouble or.

[32:02] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: And you love them and they're your friends. And I've been. I mean, my friend Kirk is, you know, we just went to. I mean, we've been best friends for 17 years.

[32:11] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. I mean, I don't know how you open the door exactly. I don't. I mean, for any difficult Subject, I think you have to indicate that you're listening. And, you know, that's obvious how to do it to me. You make eye contact, you keep your mouth shut, you know, but then you have to be able to not react when people say something you don't like.

[32:41] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right.

[32:43] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I don't know. I don't know what to say about that because I have a cousin who's a Trump Republican, but we just make fun of him, you know, and he's like, oh, yeah, y'all see, you'll see when this country's blah, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, for me, it's bizarre because I always voted Republican before Trump. So, you know, there's a lot of people who. The party is very divided within itself, I think.

[33:19] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: And actually we were talking about this the other day as well, is, you know, back in the, I say the pre Trump era, it was interesting is because people voted for the candidate more, in my experience, than the party. So, you know, they were really interested in where, you know, candidate was, you know, with the issues that were at the moment. And if a Democrat would vote for a Republican, if they felt like that Republican was more in line with what was happening at the time. And it wasn't taboo, like, say, oh, yeah, I did vote for George Bush or I did vote for. It wasn't like, oh, my God, you didn't vote for Clinton or you didn't vote for whomever. But now it's this divisive. Are you going to. Did you vote for Trump? Oh, my God, how did you do that? Or, you know, versus, you know.

[34:17] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah, I think there's a degree of that. It's definitely. I think that Trump is an extreme person. And I would say Biden became somewhat extreme, especially on climate. You know, that was further than it was expected.

[34:34] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right.

[34:34] KATHERINE HAMMOND: And some people are happy and some people are sad. But there was another time that it was like this, and that was with Nixon. So we, I have to say in my, like, when Nixon was impeached or sorry about to be impeached and he resigned that summer that Watergate came out, I would say all the college kids that was my group were appalled. Like, we did not really know that the government was this bad. Right. We were all obsessed with Vietnam. I mean, that was like the defining moment of our generation. And it still is, because people on Your street were 18 and came home dead, and there was no way around it. I mean, it was awful. And for what. But we didn't know that, that a president could just boldly lie like he Said he was never going to invade Cambodia. And then he did. And so Watergate was a big polarizing moment. And anybody that was going to vote for Nixon in his second term caused the same kind of shock because one of my best friends from high school told me she voted for him second time he ran. And I said, I was just. I couldn't believe it, you know, but I didn't hate her for it.

[36:10] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right.

[36:11] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I just went, well, that's Jenny, you know.

[36:14] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah. Oh, I don't. I don't hate anyone. I mean, but it's just. It's interesting to me, especially within, I think the. Are the gay community when you have, you know, gay men that, you know, have, you know, rights that were, you know, pretty much, you know, bestowed upon us because of the, you know, Democratic agenda. And then now they feel that, you know, Trump is the way forward. And it's just, I'm like. And I don't know how much that they've read of Project 2025, but, you know, there's a lot of plans within that project to strip away a lot of gay rights, amongst other things.

[36:58] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. Well, what would you say to somebody you felt comfortable with if you wanted to find out why they support Trump?

[37:10] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: So, I mean, and I have had conversations. My best friend's name is Kirk, and he feels like Trump's economic agenda is. He's a small business owner, actually, he has two small businesses. And he feels like that, you know, Trump's economy is much better and that his, you know, his tax plan and everything is much more favorable for him as a small business owner and an individual and an American taxpayer. And that's really. But because he. I think that was kind of like his entry into Trump politics. But now, like, we had a conversation the other day that he really feels, because Trump said it, that people are eating people's pets in Ohio. Like, and I was like, but he won't. And I even sent him the articles about what's really happening with the Haitian community and everything in Canton, and that the woman that did eat her cat was mentally ill and all of that. But that didn't happen on Fox News. And it didn't come from Newsmax. It came from another media source. And he says, fake news. Trump said that people are eating pets. So people are eating pets. And I'm like, if you're going to believe that and not do the proper research, because, I mean, anybody can say anything, just like you were saying, like, politicians lie, and anyone can say anything and go back on it. And it's just those conversations where you feel like if you can't do your research on this claim, like, imagine what else you're believing from what's being said.

[38:48] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Right. It makes you question people's judgment because they're not looking for true information.

[38:58] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right. They're not looking for the. Yeah. The truth behind it.

[39:01] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah.

[39:02] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Because like I said, anybody can say anything, including the media, you know, so you really have to do, you know, a good bit of research now when something comes out like that to really find out, well, okay, well, what's really happening here?

[39:15] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. We have about five to ten minutes left.

[39:20] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Okay.

[39:22] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. I would love to even talk to you longer about this because you're younger and you have more access to, you know, people that are involved in shaping the future, I think. And I have two sons. I would like to talk to them about it, but it seems they're not even really interested. I mean, like, they don't want to talk about that. Like, one of my sons is a businessman, and he says, mom, I never consider politics ever.

[39:56] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah. My husband's the same way. He's younger than me, and he's. I mean, I asked him to watch the debate, and he was, like, so disinterested. I'm like, brian, I was like, this is important in what's happening in our world and our country and our future and what, you know, rights we have. And.

[40:17] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah.

[40:17] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: And I'm trying to influence him, but he really has no interest. Like, he'll vote, but, you know, both of his parents are Trump Republicans, and. Yep. And he even has conversations with them about, you know, I think his father is kind of like my friend Kirk, like, really looking at the economics of it versus everything else. And he was like, you know, a vote for Trump is really a slap in your son's face because of everything that is at risk if he was elected. In our rights being stripped away.

[40:50] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Do you think they just think it's not at risk?

[40:54] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I think they ignore certain parts of it because they see they're very money in where my taxes are being spent.

[41:07] KATHERINE HAMMOND: That's their priority.

[41:09] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: That's their priority.

[41:09] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. I mean, priorities are okay.

[41:11] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: It is.

[41:11] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah.

[41:12] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: But then everything else has really no influence on that decision.

[41:15] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. I mean, you have to think, like, what is. Even the things he says that are stupid, they still have influence sometimes. Like, remember that time when he said this storm was going to Alabama and he drew it on the map and there was a hurricane and it freaked out people in Alabama, but it wasn't even.

[41:32] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: It wasn't even near there.

[41:33] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, it does matter. But what I like that I've heard you say is that you do try and engage people.

[41:41] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I do.

[41:41] KATHERINE HAMMOND: And don't give up. Oh, no, I'm not giving up because I think I look at the long run, you know, like, let me ask you this. Do you have any idea what Zachary Taylor did when he was president?

[41:53] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: No.

[41:54] KATHERINE HAMMOND: No. You don't care, right? Who cares? So I mean, people are going to say that about Trump and Biden. Okay. And in 60 years they're like, who? What? Right, yeah. So I look at the long run. So I'm more concerned about local institutions and one on one relationships. So as long as you can keep talking to people, which you do have a knack for. I guess part of that's pr. But yeah, yeah, I mean, I think just don't give up. Because when elections are as close as they've been for the last 30 years, that means half the people in your grocery line voted for the other guy.

[42:36] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right? Yeah. Or that you work with or that you.

[42:41] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah, yeah. And if, and like you see two people pushing strollers in the, in the park, you know, they don't care. They're talking about their babies.

[42:51] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Right? Yeah. And that's what I mean generally. I mean, within our, my mixed group, we mostly do not talk politics. But you know, it does come up.

[43:04] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah, I would like it to come up more. I'm going to think about that. I'll lead you to the last question. Actually, I know a question I'm wondering for the last question is something that's each bringing you joy lately.

[43:27] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Do you want me to do. So what's bringing me joy lately is in my bio, of course. We just got married in the spring, so me and my husband bought a new home. We just renovated the or had the backyard landscaped. It was a big dirt lot. So we're really enjoying like making our home a home and creating a space that's, you know, for us. And so this was, you know, we did live together briefly before we got married, but we've really enjoyed just, you know, kind of like, you know, last weekend we spent the whole weekend shopping for Adirondack chairs for the backyard. I mean, but it was fun, it was nice. We spent the day together and we were, you know, running around town and looking and on our phones, seeing what online and Wayfair had and doing so. It's just we've really enjoyed that experience and kind of making that place our own.

[44:21] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Oh, that's great. I love that you're nesting.

[44:23] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Yeah.

[44:24] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah. That's so funny, because I have the same thing. I just went out on a limb and got a place in the mountains because I never thought I would live someplace flat. And so I just got a place in the Blue Ridge Mountains. So I've been doing the same thing.

[44:39] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: That's great.

[44:40] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yep. Just make a little nest.

[44:42] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: That's just a second home.

[44:44] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Oh, nice. But I don't really do a lot of. Mostly I just sit there and look at the mountains.

[44:50] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: Sounds good to me.

[44:52] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Yeah.

[44:53] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: One thing I miss most about West Virginia, I said, when we grew up on a 60 acre farm, I was like, you could go outside and have your coffee and in your underwear. No one saw you. No one cared.

[45:03] KATHERINE HAMMOND: I know one of my children said, mom, what do you do up there? And I started laughing because, well, first I sit in the front and look at that side, then I sit in the back, and then I look at that side.

[45:16] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: But isn't the air so much better?

[45:17] KATHERINE HAMMOND: Oh, so much.

[45:18] DOMENICK CASUCCIO: I know. I love it. I'm going to West Virginia in a few weeks to spend a few days with my mom. And I'm really looking forward. I was like, it's just different. It's home.

[45:29] KATHERINE HAMMOND: It's very different. Y'all, you gotta get back.