Don Millinger and Gary Clinton

00:02 My name is Gary Clinton, 70 years old. Today, is September. 17th, 2021. Where in Fire Island, Pines New York. I'm here with my husband. Don millinger.

00:15 I my name is Don millinger. I am 66 years. Old today, is September, 17th 2021. I'm at Fire Island Pines with Gary Clinton. My husband.

00:27 So, why are we here? What do you think? We're here right now?

00:33 We hear our story and Other Stories we hear to be part of the AIDS Memorial project. But Fire Island Pines, we're here because by virtue of age and luck. We are here to tell stories from the seventies and eighties about HIV and AIDS that, sadly, not a lot of people are around or accessible available to town and we here to have a conversation and maybe get some additional insights from each other. Even though we didn't know each other a long, long time, your perspective.

01:13 For all the reasons you said I can be summarized it by 10. First of all, the right we're here because we were witnesses to what was happening in the seventies and eighties. And there aren't a lot of people in this community who are still here. When they asked if we would do this to me about it and thinking it seemed difficult to do emotionally it is. I've had some hard nights thinking about are all the friends we've lost and what we've been through. But then I thought the most important thing is to call out names and witness lives of people who were deeply, deeply important to us. In the Bossier is particularly in the 80s and we can talk about that. That's it. I mean, I think the sense of being witness to lives lost

02:13 Sulfur bumps in my mind. And I think this to levels one is just to have people. Remember that a particular context. It's important to have the records there and also to talk about Impressions and feelings Sensations. I mean, we were young, I was twenty-seven years old and and in 84, when this hit and you were 30 years old and I sent to that time has changed over time. I think of me that could be interesting to think about out loud as well. We can always do remember that far Island before we understood what AIDS was and that was their, What were, what was the Pines like in the 70s, in the 70s? I mean, our experience in the 70s, we first came out here, 7475, may be more likely 75 when we are about. We are still in college and we were here as guests during that. Just let ready till later.

03:10 And my remember it as being sort of this.

03:14 Magic place, where they were all these gay people who could, who were just being who they were. And you've heard me refer to that, sort of special. I was stone wall and free age when everything seemed possible and political event happening in Sulphur, things are happening everywhere, kids and their other kids, and it just was a time meeting new people and interesting people. I'm going to talk about the people that we met or brought us here. But to me, it was just a moment of exploration enjoy and not wild. Abandon the some people who might have been but just of also exploring our relationship. Because at that point 75, you'd only been together for 3 years and no sense a different context or we can learn who each other was among other gay people who could be role models for us.

04:14 I mean, I remember coming out here for the first time as guests of Henry Berg and Henry should have covers over our lives as this inspiring Spirit. Henry brought us out here and we got here. My recollection is we got here on a Friday night. It was very, very late. They were not nearly, as many lights. Not nearly. As many houses. Not nearly as many people, and we followed his instructions, to go to the right off the ferry. Go to the left at the last walk, and we got to his house. And his housemates said, he's not here. We had dinner in this little cottage, got up the next morning and looked out the window. And there was the green Ocean. And the, the light colored sand and the

05:01 You know, that the meat rack was right there. We looked out over me, track the woods and there was a little Carrington house off there and I felt like we'd arrived in Someplace Special. It was like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. And on the way, I mean we visited friends of Henry's and wandered around and it was, it felt like a camp like gays, summer camp, nothing we've ever experienced before. And I remember on the way back and we talked about this, I was in tears on the way back on the ferry, because I said, we've been to paradise, and we're never going to get invited back. But we did. And we got invited back again and again, and again, and we were here sometimes in the fall in a little bit and spraying a little bit in the summer. And then in 1980, when we started going back to Henry, cuz if you're so special and you're the deputy director of the Guggenheim Museum. And he met him through two professors at Rochester University Rochester where we met

06:01 And the three of them were sewed of real mentors. Role model, people who are really important on all eyes and Henry was our entree to Fire Island and through him. We met other people and other visits were to him or two friends of his that we met here only on the way as well. And then 1980.

06:21 Happened in 1980 was our first time we rented here and that was at a house on the ocean 3.

06:32 96 / 369. I always forget which it was between dollars and Neptune 96.96.

06:39 And we are.

06:42 We passed on that. We we rented with the friends from Philadelphia. And on the way in the guys who had just been there were on their way out, or they were friends of our friends from Philadelphia. And we tried again, Billy, Fred palutena, so don't stock. And we already our, we overlooked now. And we exchanged that we got in touch with New York. We saw them in that came Philadelphia. We went to New York. They were a different breed of guys. They were real New Yorkers, right? Very, very connected. They liked to dance. They like the parties are they had a phenomenal Circle. A very interesting friends and they were ten years older than we were 12 years older and they became kind of our older gay brothers and wonderful. Wonderful guys just

07:42 It was an it was seeing Sergei New York, and we vacation with them in the Caribbean, wonderful friends and designer for blind.

08:05 But then very early on grid was happy. We went to a big party at Chuck's house. It was like the gayest thing going. It was just an amazingly active, right party, just fun. And he was a lighthearted lovely guy in about 6 months later, a freaking Billy koalas and syphilis and we would help here is very sick and they don't know what's going on. And his, it's like, his whole body is falling apart very, very quickly and he doesn't have can't work and we just taking up a collection, but it's this very it. It's just a weird thing that's going on. With the first time we became aware of the year, was personally that there was something going on.

09:05 I meant trying to build a better boy. We rented with them for two years on the island. So we rented for them in that same house in 81 and 82. I think we probably 83 then thinking that this was touching Our Lives. I remember. Yeah, I mean, I remember we had I mean anyone that was getting up. Or away or knew there was something going on but it did not touched us. I mean, there was a the grid, the game related to be the net worth of the gay cancer and all that going on. So I remember we had an awareness of it and also bring that early time to we had a friend that much of a doctors in Philadelphia and they was setting up Philadelphia Community Health Alternatives, which was at we live in Philadelphia have since 1976 and they were setting up pcha.

10:05 Just in general Men's Health Organization, Damon's Health Organization of the early 80s. And then they started talking about. Oh, wow. This is other things going on. If I remember them talk about that and that the ledge of the older me to the first day's organization get out of medical the way. We felt that coming up here every year because we would eat and be here maybe 2 weeks a year or a little bit before, a little brain is fried ring. I don't remember thinking. Oh, this is a place to be worried about. Now. I do remember, a couple of things. I remember when they were people with Lisa Ling down at the harbor, where I guess what I think it was Larry Kramer & Company. That's like him, but I remember they were down, there are leafleting and collecting money and the guys we were with we're like, oh, what's what's this about?

11:05 Be part of that. But then at some point, I'm not sure if those weeks months or a year later. There was an article in the New York Times and they were talking about what was now, more clearly sexually transmitted disease and it was, they could interview the guy who said, well, he estimated, it had sex with a thousand people over the years and one of our friends. So we were having lunch with look in the paper said that doesn't strike me as a high number at all. I think there are lots and lots of people he said, including myself who have had sex with thousands of people and a friend from New York, my friends from Rochester. When I meet at the College of Freddy and Billy got very, very sick and very very quickly and

12:05 They came to visit us in Philadelphia when they were.

12:12 Struggling. And nobody was saying what was going on and they weren't saying, you know, I'm I have HIV or Aids but it was clear and that was like 85 or so. There was something going on there with them physically, but I mean two weeks a year house and then sporadically in throughout the spring summer fall, visiting friends are real kind of moneys from me. And my perspective, my real consciences of the progression of a create with some Philadelphia from being there, just reading about and doing all the gay. But there was a concentration here because there were so many gay people here. We knew so many people here and I never felt like a threat. I don't want to be there because of it. I felt like in a sense we should of

13:08 Just wanted to confirm set, reminder continue the normalcy of our lives and keep going back cuz we had been a lot of our dear friends. We hear who became good friends, like you ready and Billy are like Peter and bread and then other people to who this is the chance we would see them maybe not radically over the winter. It was.

13:29 Ascent of community here among a people even through this, maybe especially through the, the, the epidemic that you just didn't have it a day-to-day work life and in Philadelphia wherever. So, there was a drawing together. Here, also.

13:49 I remembered that you said Brett and Peter, but I remember this was probably 85-86. Red said, let's take a walk and I took a walk. We were at and went and sat on a couple of steps overlooking the bay. And I remember so clearly bread saying, you know, there's this thing going around, there's this disease and

14:18 I'm a ghost. I'm a ghost. And I said, what do you mean? And he said I don't, I'm not here anymore. I just

14:27 If anybody has it, I have it. Because I've done it the same things that everybody else is done. And friends of mine are getting sick and

14:37 I have to ask, it's it's just what's going to happen. I don't feel I own life anymore. And I said, oh, no, you know, we can do those things and it's, you'll fine and what not.

14:47 But he got within two years, he has gone as was his partner and that was those sort of moments, increasingly happen. And I think I think you're right. We actually I think new people from have a key or more people who develop AIDS and died from New York and and Fire Island. Then we did in Philadelphia, for example, of my place to do. And and I think for them and being a part of it was, they could be more comfortable with it out here than in their work. Lives are real or other lives in New York show. Coming out here with good for people who are in that condition because they didn't have to hide in some way meats and ever with our community that was supporting them and they have friends out here that you got it. Yes. Or no. I mean, there were still people out here. I mean some of our friends.

15:47 Really then Autumn. Look at that, man. He looks like mr. Ed's right, just looking at our little neighborhood in the house across the street. They were like six guys and they were, we didn't know them, but they would show up for the, for you or two. We saw them doing this and maybe a week or two with someone, if they would show up on Friday, with a bolt of fabric and during the doing Friday. You would hear a sewing machine or two going. And then on Saturday, they would walk in. You know, they would remember this, I would walk in to T & L O T at the blue whale and having use that bolt of fabric. They made, you don't want to have shorts and one headset of harem pants. And one had a little jacket and they the waves would park people would just parked here came this house.

16:45 And you knew they were together and you knew they had some done something, very clever and very beautiful and they are they were right. It was just This Magic Moment. They were somewhat older than we were but they were the clearly knew what they were doing. But as a group of guys who cared about one another, they knew how to do it and great and we saw them for a couple of disappeared and we didn't see them again and we didn't ask that was just another set of guys in that house and then about 15 or 20 years later and I'm you remember I take seeing this guy at T. One of the guys was at 8 and I walked up and I said, you're not going to remember me. But in the mid-eighties you and your friends look across the street at girl talk, which is what the house was called in, and that you used to do this, used to bring fabric out.

17:45 Make clothing and he said, of course, I remember. He said that we were so happy to do that and he named all the guys and I said, you know, we stopped seeing you and he said, I'm the only one who lived.

18:01 Now they all died within a relatively brief. Of time, and I said that that fashion.

18:08 That show of togetherness and Brotherhood was so incredibly important. It meant something to us. Clearly meant something to you. And it meant so much to the crowd. And he said, let me tell you what happened at the end of the summer. He said, I know this isn't good for the bay good ecologically, but we would have a bunch of these outfits at the end of the summer and went our rental of the house was up on the last Ferry out on Sunday evening. We go to the top of the ferry. Go to the last row and quietly, just throw the clothing into the bay. And I just just that image is stuck with me.

18:49 Many, many, many years. It's just, it's just a touch it and it said it makes me think going back to an earlier question about episode of the 70s versus the AG, or if you will end in the end of the season, beginning of the season, in, in, in those put a earlier day, 70s, the end of a season. It again, do not seasonal employees to participate. It was a matter of OG, the season's over a little bit of sadness, little bit of hope to see you over the winter and can't, you know, we'll see you in the spring and then the beginning of the season with real great to be back. Good to see everyone. How wonderful that way here.

19:27 And then slowly in the 80s, you know, the end of the season as you knew more month before his dick and we knew friends that had a Jimmy new people that we're going to be struggling. It's a matter of how much more concerted effort to stay in touch over the winter. Like because you did not how much time did be left by and then thinking about even that you know, who's going to be here next year and and then coming back in the spring and close friends aside for you knew what the situation was, whether they are still around or fine. But when you didn't see some of the quote regular faces that you would expect to see it around the boardwalk or, or in the pantry. It's like

20:14 Why not is a matter of in the past? So they just wanted to write this year. They're not around and moved away. But the Assumption was are they all are they alive? And so it changed leaving and coming back more fraught on two, different level and because of the uncertainty was going to happen at the end of the season and the uncertainty of what may have happened to the beginning.

20:39 You know what a related to that. I think there was also the the capacity with a limited capacity to keep up with some of the guys from out here. So as we got to know more and more people and treasure more and more people, there were half a dozen. Other ate that we would keep up with over the winter. And Bob Dylan, wonderful young guy tall. Very sweet. Just a, loving down III. 24 years old, 14 years old, and we kept up with him. And I remember we had just bought a house in Philadelphia, and he was, he was getting very sick, very, very quickly, and we were on the phone, and he was having to struggle with his parents, with his family. He felt that they weren't being there for him. Whether that, you know, but the reality was, we didn't know. But I remember saying to him, we have a house, there's a bedroom and if you want to come to Philadelphia, you know, we will we will be there for you. And

21:39 5, this was an 85 and he, he said, you know, I can't. I mean, I do have to be closed and they got pretty sick very quickly. We went to see him and Saint Vincent's and it was the first time I think we were.

21:56 Don and I were sitting at a bedside holding a friend's hands, you know, someone who's very sick, very, very sick in a season. And what weight loss.

22:19 And they said we will try. Then I will try. Not that we will be there. Again. This is through my memory and his lens, but I do know that I wrote a letter afterwards to his parents and said, you have a glorious wonderful son here who has done nothing to deserve this. He needs you as he needs you as family, he needs to feel your love and your support. And please it's getting more and more difficult for him to communicate when he passes. Please let us know because we'll do anything, you know, we can to help.

23:04 And we got no reply response. No response. We never found. We never found out what he passed.

23:14 Just nothing. We know. And I just remember writing and hearing. Nothing. Nothing. Which

23:31 Tremendously difficult on the other side.

23:37 Are we in a friend named angel angel, this wonderful friend, Angel Santiago who we knew from Rochester, and we would see in New York, where he work, and he Angel got very sick in the mid-eighties, I guess. And his family asked us to come up and see him. And we went up to Rochester, where we hadn't been in some years and went to Angel's house. He was living with his parents that again. He was so visibly, frail and ill and he said, well, I have, I just learned something yesterday. That's very, very, very good news. I don't have AIDS. I have cancer and

24:20 He had to hold on to that that that was very important to Angel and his mother outside. The room said he has AIDS but he he can't, he can't handle that. So we're telling him. He has cancer and you know prefer a 28-year old guy to say. Well, the good news is I'm dying of cancer. I'm not dying of AIDS. He died this man the same time as bread or Peter because we had the funeral of the way. It was so hard to find a tragic. We had a funeral at the same weekend and I went up to Rochester to go to angels and I went to a new, a New York to go to. I think it was Peter, I think was feeders and

25:05 And it was just that kind of a place, so the other and families, but we got a package and his mother and father, sent us a copy of the best little boy in the world, but not of the world, angel love that book, an angel, love that book, so much that he stole it from the public library in New Rochelle. And he said, angel said he wanted you to have this, you know, this best little boy in the world years later. We went up meeting Andy to buy us.

25:51 And I told him that story and he made he looked, and he made some joke. People shouldn't steal books. And I said, Andy, I'm trying to tell you something, incredibly beautiful.

26:09 He said.

26:13 Don't you think I know that? And don't you think this is breaking my heart.

26:26 One thing.

26:29 Anda.

26:31 We just like that. So gorgeous. And I think his reaction was so wonderful because that book men so so much and to have the opportunity to say that to that order who has touched. So many lives and tell him. The story of this kid, the book men so much. And to have him say that it really touched his heart meant a lot to me. And I need to remember is the way that you need to pull together in a lot of ways. I mean, there were always history of parties out here and get end in celebrations and how that sort of morphed. And so I remember when they would probably shoot, elaborate theme shows and the party is going to be here. The week of one. That was a Uso show downard a house. I'd say Land Ocean, right? On the ocean.

27:31 And you got an invitation and I got her a bunch of people there too and come to dress for the occasion and we both have like some have them that look like sailor outfits, whatever. And out of this whole big elaborate Uso show and it was hosted by the name of the skateboard Morton Morton and he was the house. And he was there in his Marlena Dietrich drag that he actually had her wigs in the counter to Kenny. Rocky Guy, Kenny Rogers. Damn, is Apple doing in Ethel Merman thing and he got Entertainer is from New York Liliane montevecchi and Larry Kur to perform that had synchronized swimming in the pool and it was a fundraiser for an HRV Aid organization and the theme basically was bringing the boys back home. And so

28:22 It was a celebration of just have a great party. But let's bring the boys back home and with performances and fun. And so there was trying to find a sense of joy and community and being together and pulling together, hundreds of people. It was a Genesis of the morning party. We're back in with an 83. People just turn what it be getting together for the morning after a night of dancing into HIV. Fundraiser. That having a chance for people who were too sick to go out to dance. And we talked about, we have a photograph one in 1989. That was at that, very new house at AutoZone and the beach in the pool.

29:12 They finally did it moved it to the beach in 1991.

29:17 And I happen to be here for the month of August and this happened with a very good friend Charlie's. If and I think we want to tell that and we went to the party together was August of 1991 and we were there together.

29:38 Gloria Gaynor was a surprise guest and came and sang. I Will Survive. And just saying that in 1991 to this community, to this crowd was so many people who was singing and dancing in August, 91 and then in 1992.

29:57 The show and within a year, he was a mixture of the join the celebration. And then the

30:12 I do want to talk about The Parting of a mixture of survival in the challenging, but this guy named Kenny brats who we didn't know, but he didn't Ethel Merman hundred people surrounding the time and it was an amazing event. I'd love to see his speech. I don't know if we're in a war and

31:16 Keeping the balance in but not enjoy enjoy. We were very, very lucky and Bobby. Esselman Dan Connor tonight, over the guys. I lived with them for years and I guess it was in 91 or 90 or 91. They said we're going to have a party surprise party for Bob and we're sending him on a wild goose chase on to Long Island to get some stuff at a hardware store. But while he's gone that in the three eras, he's gone. We're going to set the house up as a little stage. I'm going to be a little sign will proceed in a big props to do a reading of The Importance of Being Earnest, which is Bob's every play favorite play.

32:16 In front of Being Earnest in 12 years older than we were, they were very sophisticated. One was a professional dancer, Charlie ran, an ad agency. Bob was the managing director of Paul Taylor, don't have to sign rolls. And we going to design her own kind of time. We were together on Probz Charlie. Made a big sign for the front end is Lady bracknell In The Importance of Being Earnest it. So he gets back and so does. Oh my God, and so we had a little dinner and then we did a reading of the play.

33:03 We did not, I don't remember thinking at that point of anything, but the play and the mind of mine and it was going to end. But the photographs from that evening or hysterical, your life is rock and roll and the reading of plays, you know, what was this? Wonderful, wonderful time and we sort of like the epitome of what, what Fire Island Pines is for us and two years later for them. Whenever people that are saying, people trying to get here to be for support community of being who they were.

34:03 And sure, the cake motiva's. Not monolithic, was not created Gary seten, because I do want to do what I hear, but you could feel the shame here than you could on your everyday Work World in New York with your family. A lot of people. Have you noted that Bob to their families May been okay, if they were gay but when they had AIDS, that was a different, a different thing, but here, they had family.

34:29 So, how do you think would it, how do you compare today to?

34:32 Then.

34:34 Gay with civil rights rotors is way ahead on there. Still lots of energy in major drug issues that have hit this committee, very hard. And then then substance issues. But I think it's gone back to sort of the diversity energy. I wouldn't worry about that right now.

35:34 Be playful. So freedom, and enjoy and fun, and bonding, that's really important. One of the things I think that's that I'm hearing increasingly and maybe other friends in our third age demographic. There's a lot of questions about. Okay. What was you know where you here in the seventies? We hear the 80s. What's change? What's the saying? What's different from a variety of the full sweep of the world? Whether you know, they're black or Latin X or white or Asian? Or it's out there, transgender transgender people are asking about

36:34 To where we are now and what are the similarities? And one of the difference is that I try to explain and quickly. You know what, I think things were guys who were here then and all the women who were here then have your fun, don't know what happened, but focus on what's happening? Because it's still a magical place and it's still a great life here and your mention of a covid, go away, soda, similarity to and then I don't need to tell if an agent, because there was something they aren't. But this is a Hayden it was last year and is now I think I Haven in the midst of all that in the way it was nice of the age of Adam it too cuz it's Community still getting together. And you sort of like here last year. If you don't really pulled together with the pantry or people just wearing a mask and a sense of I can be someplace with Mike.

37:34 Meatball and papers Gilbert, and I think that is maybe some

37:42 Learning some acknowledgment of. This isn't a place of Refuge in a place of Goodwill and being with people. We want to be with our, I will be real family.

37:54 I think that's what we came to say. I think so.