Don Rain and Karen Scullion

00:02 I'm Karen scullion and today's date is Tuesday, October 15th, 2019. And we are at storycorps Atlanta and I am interviewing Don and. He is my dad.

00:18 And I'm Dawn rain. I am 82 years old. This is Tuesday, October 15th, 2019 at storycorps in Atlanta and my interview partner this afternoon is Karen scullion my daughter.

00:37 And so thanks for coming and coming all the way to Atlanta to do that.

00:45 When we first talked about doing this I said somehow List have to calculate into all this cuz at least in my mind, you are famous for all the list you've done and all the things that you've accomplished accomplished a lot in your career, but you having retired at age 55 was that 27 years ago? And so when Patrick your grandson first went to school all the freshmen had to read a book was called better by Atul gawande and he was telling me about it because it's written by a surgeon and he's talking about all the ways to improve health care and from his standpoint and I thought it to sound like an interesting book having worked in the medical field in marketing for a lot of years. And so after Patrick Reddit I said, I'd like to have that book of Sweden.

01:45 And I read through it. I was actually very interesting but towards the end. He talked about a lot of things you can do to improve quality and

01:55 Your purpose isn't necessarily improve quality, but there was one quote that struck me as very interesting both for myself and then later for you and it that is if you count something you find interesting you will learn something interesting which seems like from my standpoint kind of your philosophy and so on.

02:14 But I wanted to do is just kind of find out a little bit about all the all the things but some of the things that you have found most interesting as you indeed have done that because you've got a lot of lists that you've developed over the years and keep track of

02:34 So I was curious to know.

02:38 About some of the non job-related accomplishments that have basically been a result of those list.

02:47 Okay.

02:50 The ones you find the most interesting cuz you have a lot.

02:57 When you mentioned the word quality that is a an aspect of what we're doing here. In fact is I guess quality control is part of the game and that's why I have lists, I think because I like to be complete and in what I'm in them and end up doing so if I have a list or if I have a table to keep track of what's going on that helps to organize my thoughts and then it opens up the world to things that you might not have thought about before also, but any case going back to the what sorts of things are on my list or what sorts of lists might I have

03:45 A recent list that we came up with prompted by a friend was to see all of the national parks in the United States and if we didn't have that list, we wouldn't have gotten to the mall. We'd probably been to 15 or 20 of them or so, but then we shall I think so. Well, we know we had that we probably not we knew know I had to list of then and on the list we had accomplished 15 or 20, but the list wasn't complete and by getting this comment from a friend so I will go off and finish the list then so the question is one is having a list and then whether you complete the list or not.

04:33 Working a list. So we're working through it now, so

04:39 Having the list helped us to see all the national parks in the lower 48 the same sort of thought came about realizing what bicycle what states weed bicycle Den so

04:58 Oh, we bicycle Denali States, but we haven't bicycles and all those other states and all those other states have got interesting places to go to also so we'll just go and bicycle and all the lower 48 like rail trail has the largest anyplace mistake. Each each state has we try to look for rail-trails and

05:20 Which would have Scenic aspects to them so there are some.

05:27 Rail trail Hall of Fame rail Trails, which of the maybe 25 or so have been nominated in the US so far, so we try to hit those if they were around or if we became aware of them as we're going from state-to-state to add to fill in the list.

05:47 But then also, you know real trails are handy and that it's a reasonably flat but not always.

05:57 And so any case that was another list that we just tried to fill in know. I'm not the Boerne right right now, but you were writing a lot of States last year. I think it was so here you are 81 years old, but I'm feeling a lot of those blinds. When did you start the motor bike over 50 states list? Cuz you didn't ride your bike when I was a kid. It just sat in the basement. I didn't ride my bike. I rode my bike. I found a used bike at the University of Illinois it when I was working on my Ph.D. I went over to the police station nothing. They had the collected some bikes from the campus. So I went over and got a bike for fifteen bucks or so and that's what I wrote although all the time going to snow.

06:57 Mulan on campus

07:02 And then there after I guess.

07:04 Perhaps back then. I got a bike sooner or later because my current bike is like 40 years old or so, I guess but any case so list of states, I don't recall. I guess it may have been that's a good question. I don't recall when I started that was mostly in the last one.

07:31 5 6 10 years or something like that probably for the bicycling list. I probably just went back and start to think it will wear for your bicycle. We were doing rail Trails. We would go when we took a trip we'd come out to see you in.

07:47 Knot Evanston North in Illinois Lake Zurich yesterday when we saw you out there we bring her bike. So I am going to beat you up to it. We heard about the sparta Elroy Trail and such as that size. We did different rail trails around in the midwest or wherever they may be or if we need to take a trip and wherever else we take our bikes and silver time. We had biked in several States and then it's just well wherever we biked put that into a list and then then we began working out for that to complete the list. Are you completed that last year or two ago? Yes, so

08:36 There are other lists prior to that like

08:40 A long while you're not alone while you're when you were a teenager, I guess that your mother said to me. You don't have any hobbies. You need a hobby true. So the suggestion was go to a Bird Club meeting a bird Club class in the evening Bird Club class or burden class, but I guess it's a burden class run by the Birch Run.

09:12 So, all right. Well as has been I guess but I went to an evening Bird Club or braiding class probably 20 or so folks in the class sharpening their skills are learning for initially as I was and the fellow said who is the instructor was very good fellow that I'm going to go out on Saturday morning. And if you're interested in going out every Saturday morning, so I chose to go on a Saturday morning out of the 20 people. I was the only one so I had a private birthing instructor now so and that turned out to be great so that got me into the outdoors a bit learning about birds and then that extended itself into my thinking about well outdoors I can get into hiking and then I stumbled upon a group called The 3500 Club in the Catskills which hikes each of the peaks in the Catskills.

10:12 There is a list so that you thought that literally and their requirement is that you have to hike each of the peaks in the in the 3500 each Peak over 3,500 feet in elevation and the Catskills and then do four of them again in the winter specifically for specific ones. So that required list keeping if you wish but I also then from that you can go back and do the winter do them all again in the winter, which turned out to be a very fortunate requirement or fortunate activity cuz that got me into winter hiking and that's a fun thing to do that. You never think about doing on my own without the prompting of those first four initial a Peaks that were required and then from there up to the in the Catskills to a little bit more aggressive Seven Peaks in the Adirondacks.

11:12 Doing the 40 Sixers up in the Adirondacks. That's another list their 4000 Footers all over 46 46 Peaks over four thousand foot and then Abingdon those then in the Northeast which includes New York, but also in all the other states to the east of there. There are 115 Peaks over 4000 feet in elevation. So you've done two of the NFC. I guess they're too in the Catskills as I recall and the 46 in the Adirondacks. That's 48 you've done already. So you have another 60 or whatever. It is more to do to finish 215 in the Northeast. So I went off and did those

11:59 Is 115 total or the other team plus another 40 + 15 total including New York state to an summer? Well, I did them all and keep that's another senilis. I keep trying keep track of that. So I did finish all the hundred and fifteen in the summer and I got about halfway or two-thirds of the way through the winter. That's an incomplete list. Why is that? Well, I just never got to doing it. I guess I got off into other things or whatever else happened, but that's an incomplete list. That's one of the few that I can think about incomplete list is that the winter hundred fifteen that's not a simple activity either. So that's that's a rigorous activity butterfly cycling. The 48 states is a lot simpler than that, but that's then also got me into another list come to think of it is one of the fellows

12:59 I was hiking with I was a state High pointer to hike each of the high points in each of the states. That's not metal. It's some of them just a highway and I guess they're one trailer. Yes. Yes.

13:25 I guess it's Delaware is of that nature, which is just a a high point on the road sort of thing. But yes, and this is High Point a natural high point not a skyscraper or anything of that nature. That doesn't count. Right so I got doing those. I told him I'll fight you that we're no no. No. No. I told myself. I'm not going to do the Fourteen thousand Footers out in the Colorado and such as that. There's some large number of those and and certainly in Colorado. There's at least at 14000 ft if there's one of them to want to in Wyoming which is a somewhat of a technical climb and I wasn't going to get into that so I knew about those. So I did all of the high points State high points east of the Rockies at the Esso not including the Rockies, so

14:23 But that's another interesting reason to get around and see the country. So if you go see those sorts of things it forces you to see the country and you know in that regard spouse Diane and I have been very fortunate to get around and see the country quite a bit playlist and we also went to see all of the State Capitol Buildings to walk in and see them there is one in South Carolina and fact

14:57 That was closed on a Sunday when we arrived so we couldn't see that so it was several years later and we were returned and it might have been on a Sunday again, but we walked up and there was a policeman guard there and we said cheats that we've been trying to see the state capitol at but it's always not available when were here and he took pity upon us and he gave us his own personal private tour of the state capitol building. Yes. It was super hot. That's a long time ago. So he doesn't get fired and he knew the state capitol building and the normal tour guide could not show us so that was super but any case we were able to see all the State Capitol Buildings in all 50 states for that.

15:57 But then we also wanted to see all the presidential libraries another list what else all the presidential libraries they come online like the bottles Obama Obama's isn't done yet. We haven't seen that yet. But when the clintons of it got done when Bush got done etcetera, we would go and make a trip that we may go in a very strange dog leg pattern from one point to another in order to go out of our way in order to include some of these things and finish off of a topic on the list. So they're probably other list but those are the ones that popped a mind at least so well, I do keep a list of countries that we're at. We're in the 80 range right now of countries in the world Racine. We've seen all seven continents.

16:57 And there's something in the order of close to 200 United Nations countries. So we've got a ways to go we have a ways to go but there is a an organization.

17:11 That

17:14 It is like a hundred countries organization that maybe it's a century club or something like that and they required that you've been to a hundred countries, but they're rather lenient in their requirements because something like Alaska being distinct from

17:34 The the contiguous arrest they count Alaska as a separate Country Club potential member, but we have not elected to sign into that. So

17:56 Yeah, but travel is an interesting aspect for us and by having the OA another notion that we have another phone call of philosophical notion is very seldom mobile return to the same place many times when you go to sleep or something the first time that for your children with you, we have to be come and visit again. Well, I always another comment is I would prefer that I had a hundred streets radiating into my house so I could take a different path into the house rather than taking the same path all the time to the house. So

18:39 But yeah, every every country is different and we are always intrigued with the culture of the aspects of of a new country as we go but there are so many other places to see we don't want to return and see something we've seen before and when you do return a second time, it doesn't have the same charm that it had the first time. Grindley. So there are those folks to like the vacation go back to the same Beach location every summer and that's fine for them. But that doesn't work for us. So I know whether that's flowed through into the family tradition or not, but that's has turned out to be our preference at least tonight.

19:25 So did you have all these kinds of lists like in high school or college Irving? I don't think they're just kind of materialized every time he's realize you'd think of list is really an aspect of being organized and I am an organized person that is filtered down. So and I find that out for me. It's very helpful. So keep my thoughts organized. So I kept that

20:02 You wish you'd kind of started or we're going to drink by but just never

20:08 Not that I'm aware of at the moment and I don't I don't think we have any new list forming particular that come to pop because we haven't completed there are

20:22 We have not done all the national parks in Alaska and we did those in Hawaii though we have there is a national park in American Samoa.

20:33 Okay, so I need them to somehow know. So everything's always create options of things to do. But if it does also sensitize we travel around its sensitizes us to some of the aspects of the way these folks live in the problems. They have in such like American Samoans don't have the same rights of citizenship as Citizens in the US actually somehow or another I don't recall a particular is of it, but

21:09 You tune into some of these things when you travel and when you was here a country something happened and you Pakistan you don't pay attention to it if you haven't been there, but once you've been there, it's much more meaningful, right? Oh, that's why we enjoy traveling and there was a lot of places that would still up interest them.

21:31 What are some of the places that you found know you've been so many places and I knew you would pass you say Well, they're all different if you had to pick three or four that.

21:42 Reno word meaning top three or top for literally that just had the most impact her for whatever reason. I mean, I know they're different but there must be some dust and out as just soon as you would say, they're just super.

21:56 Yeah, they're all different. I know your mother always says well, her favorite is Antarctica, and that is unique.

22:10 You need to if you go you need to go on a smaller ship so that you have a greater option to get on Shore by means of a zodiac has versus one of these larger ships and you have to be interested in nature if you're not interested in nature, you shouldn't really go so I'm not really sure why but some people are going particularly because I think they just stay on the on the ship and play cards or whatever and say, oh, yes, we were there and they look out the window and they see the icebergs and such as that and so but in any case, we we in certainly did enjoy getting off the ship and seeing

22:52 The penguins have multiple different species as you go from place to place your birth last. Well, that's another yet. That's another list. I forgot. You're right. Yes. I know that. I'm probably in the 2500 2500 03 225 out of that. Just yours. Is it between you and Mom know that's mine. I keep your mother is not the list keeper like I am so I keep it for her and whenever we're burning I always I did you see that one so I can mark it that make sure that I'm markdowns the ones that she has seen but that causes us to go to other places to that. We might not have thought about so yeah, that is another list come to think of it as the bird list.

23:44 Yeah, and that's yeah, I guess that goes all the way back to that burden class that I took a long while ago.

23:59 How do people spend their time that's what this is all about. I guess really when you think about it by working at last you've accomplished normous amount. Well, I think we feel very fortunate what we've been able to do and I think a lot of people realize that they're just sitting at home and they say OG that sounds great and they don't go beyond that other people say, oh I can see pictures and I'm satisfied with that. But that's hardly the same as seeing as as being there and there's a big difference between looking at a photo album or if you know of a book of pictures, even though their National Geographics quality pictures,

24:51 I got imagine the internet has helped tremendously in terms of all that when you talk about that cuz he has to be really hard to try to research countries or travel Arrangements. No spend a lot of time online researching we couldn't have. We couldn't have done what we did one of your super memorable trip. I guess would be that China and the way we did it. We did that on her own. Wee wee mainland China to Taiwan. We did Taiwan or mainland China and

25:31 Tibet lhasa in Tibet

25:36 And I couldn't have done it without the net I got on the net.

25:43 And

25:48 Search for four companies tour companies that led tours to China and

25:58 Most of them had itineraries which included for instance Hong Kong and we had been to Hong Kong back in 69 is a long while ago when I was in work right now. I took your mother along so she'd seen Hong Kong so they had some I'll call him plain vanilla store locations that we didn't want to spend our time returning to sew one. I interacted with two maybe three different companies and this one and I asked them. When do you go how many people do you go in your group? What dates do you leave? How many people in the group and where do you go and do and I had a list of places that I had accumulated from awareness and also from one of these hiking friends that I'd like the 80 with he had been to China and so he had

26:58 Places like Shoe Show in Hangzhou, which were not on the normal itinerary?

27:06 For folks so

27:10 This one company said yes, we go to all those places we leave whenever you want and it'll be this the two of you. So we ended up signing up with him before we did so

27:31 I guess we had the question who in the world are you and why should we why should we spend if I should we send half of our total dollars to you ahead of time. I have a faithful shoot with N Out crew correcting the proper is this so he sent us the email addresses of three people and we sent to them I request telesur, you know, what do you think of this guy? And they each sent by one was in Cape Town South Africa as I recall when was like in the Netherlands and I don't recall maybe the other was in Texas or something like that and they each sent back glowing reports a couple of them sent their full height in Aries and and log like an 8 or 10 page description of what they did there. So I thought to myself these are not

28:27 Prop type people, you know, just the fake people that were sending back comments. I guess I had faith in what I was reading that it sounded very personalized. So we had to face and I sent off my half of the total trip dollars to this fellow know that we would eat we landed in Beijing and we would meet him in a Xeon so and he was a very good fellow to meet when we did meet him.

28:59 He died while we were there is a guide in each City that we went. We landed in an airport. The guy who would meet us at the airport have a driver drive us and he would be the guide the English-speaking guide to he would at the end of the several days in a city take it back to the airport. We were on our plane on the plane by ourselves into the next city same as same thing occurred at the next and NZ on we met the fellow who said all this stuff up for us and he was a very good friendly and detailed person which is a sort of guy you need and we had dinner with him and the guide and Z on was there also and the guy that made the comment that

29:47 He does whatever his boss wants him to do in the boss said no, no. No, you don't do whatever the boss wants you to do. You want do whatever the client wants you to do? So he had the right to the fellows at the trip had the right attitude, but any case because of that arrangement of the way, the trip was arranged and seeing China itself. That was probably a very memorable trip over all to stay out there. I guess it sort of jumping off a cliff but we chose to do so in that case and smile, okay.

30:29 Yeah, yeah, that's what I think about stuff.

30:37 Obviously I'm giving you a flavor for me. I maybe I should turn the tables and ask you some stuff. But anyway, I'll use another set of stuff that I do keep.

30:53 Which is Uncle I'm just philosophical thoughts and I write them down. I keep in my on my iPhone.

31:06 List of philosophical thoughts that are sort of Mainstays The Way You Oughta think about life. So the thing and the reason I write them down because I don't always remember them out of the top of my head. I left. I remember any of them out of the top of my head right now.

31:27 And since I'm not I will have the iPhone here. I can't pull them out particularly. But what else you know when it's stuck with Pat when they're for Scott, which is something along the lines of dream believe lamb Mexican. That's right. That's why I don't find that. I put that into the into the internet. I don't find that anywhere on the internet as a squeak when you go searching that to me. That's an original thought dream believe plan execute and to me that's what I end up doing. Oh we were talking about quality before I guess the thought it another ideas if you if something goes wrong you change what's the process of what you've been doing, you know so that you don't learn from it and you changed but but but

32:27 Legally you change the way you been doing things so that you don't repeat it again, right? Oh going way back in time back to IBM management type course, I'll timer on your desk. But there is distinguish between wants and needs and that was a course called by a company near Trego now, why are you in the business course? There was a business course romantic Varina early first to second line manager types Dustin to distinguish between wants and needs and that's usually financial planning kind of optic. Yes, but and I tried to bring that home not very successfully.

33:27 Do your mother saying to do you really want that or do you really need that? You know under the stop often times. Do you need that? Or do you want it I want it and I'm going to get it when you think about it. It turns out I think your needs are very few when you really boil it down so you can leave quite a day.

34:02 I will do whatever is a small a small life on call it's far as the need to concern. So a lot of these things are the ending up with the

34:16 We're very fortunate able to do this Arts at the end of obviously, we don't need to do all this travel that we do but Caesars just need to buy you for feeling you don't do it. You're feeling once not needs. Although I would argue that you have a need to constantly learn.

34:38 What you want aspects of virtually all your travels, there's always always learning component. You will not just sit on a cruise and ruined drink Mai Tais. That's just not you you want to learn about the culture in the place. Well, yes, I take a trim Henry's and every trip I take I take three times when you're planning it when I Planet when I do it and then when I come home and taking the pictures and putting a caption on each picture and I really understand what we've been then I will study it and I'll tell you know, you look at a single picture and I'll end up at spending a half-hour looking it up and learning about it in such as that of where we've been more. So because you don't really comprehend it from your they're particularly, so that's why I stay up till 2 and 3 in the morning.

35:30 And that's why not. I'm not accomplish as much as I guess. I have to go to bed earlier why you need sleep or something already something other like that. I wrote the name of the book down for future reading. Yes, I guess I do need something. You don't I don't mom used to make a list of all the books. He's read or listened to on tape. I do not read books. Generally. I'm a non book reader. I read very few books because I fall asleep when I read a book the computer all the time, but

36:21 I can't if I sit quietly I will instantly fall asleep. So I have I I do remember cuz I would read in 4 hours when I was there with you.

36:40 Where the where the crawdads sing? It's a recent book was on the New York Times bestseller.

36:51 Oh, we ordered it on the internet as a book for your mother, I guess.

36:57 She wanted to get it. Well, we already found a very good price on the internet as how I was just such a good price while I ended up as a PDF file. It was not a hard copy book. It was a PDF file so you can say you can put her actually read it so you could send it exactly right. Well, I can put it on the tablet or whatever and read it but

37:21 I think it was a scam.

37:24 Selling a PDF file, you know, the people who are selling it. I looked up the address and a street view. It's just the house out in the middle of the city. So I how you sort of think somebody another got the book realize it's the best seller I'll bet it made it PDF file out of it and I sent an email to the publisher who happened to be in England and the England publisher said, oh that's handled by our us publishing house. So I sent the the same letter to the US Publishing House.

38:04 You know, you're being scammed. They're selling your product as a PDF file with you not gaining Revenue don't you want to do something about it? And they didn't follow up on the first book. You actually read in a long time in many years. Yes as a catheterization as a book book. What is it? I recommend the book. It's a good book. Did I send you the PDF file? I know you did. Not sure I should send you the video of a time trying to catch up.

38:38 The magazine various business type magazine sorts of stuff, right? I read a lot of Publications.

38:50 But there have a business orientation to them. Yeah. I prefer I prefer non fiction and things that are real life as the same thing in watching television. I don't watch the the murder mysteries as a by the cop shows or whatever particularly but I'd rather watch the news programs and find out and keep up with what's going on. So to each is own in that report.

39:21 I think we're probably about a time and need to wrap it off but over here, but okay. Thank you for sharing all those lists Yuva. You don't know if a lot just by working the list. So it's a lot to be said for that real example. We've enjoyed it and I recommend some mechanism for you to keep trying it. We've enjoyed travel. Maybe you will too.