Douglas Caputo and Matt Caputo

[00:01] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: I'm Douglas Caputo. I am 64 years old. Today's date is Monday, September 19, 2022. I'm in Salt Lake City, Utah. I am interviewing Matt Caputo, who is my nephew.

[00:17] MATT CAPUTO: My name is Matt Caputo. I am 43 years old. Today's date is Monday, September 19, 2022. We are in Salt Lake City, Utah, and I am interviewing Doug Caputo, who is my uncle. So, you know, we talked about what we wanted the theme of this to be, and there's a lot of interesting things going on in our lives, and we had some ideas about family heritage and, you know, the immigrant influence on our family. But something you said this morning really stuck out to me, and I. I kind of want to know what you meant by that, and maybe it's a good way to start this conversation, and maybe it's not. But you mentioned how much diversity there is in our family, and, you know, coming from a couple of white guys, you know, what. What exactly. When I look at my family's background, of course, I. The first thing I think about is, you know, not necessarily what most people would mean by diversity. So what do you. What do you. What did you mean by that?

[01:27] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: So I've never. I've always felt reluctant to check that box that says caucasian white when they ask ethnicity, because I. I do that begrudgingly, because there was a time when italian immigrants, irish immigrants, were not considered white. I mean, they were third class citizens. They were not welcome. Kind of a weird story. I remember being small, like, I don't know, four or five. It was before I was in school. And I was always searching for the italian side of my heritage because my father died when I was two. And, you know, I'd go over to Grandma Caputo's and hang out with Hazel and Rosie, our aunts. And it was part of the family on my dad's side that I always was searching for because I was surrounded with my mom's side of the family, you know, with the irish and. And the scandinavian side of the family, the english side. But I would ask my mom, which half of me is italian, the top half or the bottom half? And I'm still deciding. But I see our bloodline as a mixture of two. No. Of many cultures, primarily italian and Irish and English. But there's a lot of, you know, scandinavian in there, too, so. And we come to this country relatively early. Grandma and Grandpa Caputo, your great grandparents, came here from the old country. Our oldest uncle, Uncle Jay, was born in Italy. My father, Tony's father, was born here in Sunnyside Utah. My family came over to work in Carbon County. I think Grandpa Caputo sold wares and some grocery items to the miners. He didn't work in the mines. My family, our family, on mom's side, the Brackens did work in the mines. So we came over in typical immigrant fashion. And it was slightly after the turn of the century. Grandma Green on mom's side of the family, they came over with the church from Liverpool, England. So, you know, we weren't part of the pioneers that settled this community. And not being ldse, I've always felt like an outsider in this community, sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad. So I identify strongly with the diversity element of our family, and then we talk about who we've married. Your wife, Yelena, has immigrants. She's an immigrant. Your brother Peter's wife, they're immigrants. I mean, we, my granddaughters are biracial. They're african american. They come from sub saharan Africa. So I feel really lucky. I get. I get a little teary because, um, I feel that diversity has given me so much, and I. I hurt when I see where we are as a nation. So I love to talk about family, but I can't divorce myself from how far off the. Off the rails we've gotten as a country where we think about common good instead of our own individual attainments and material things. And I just. The thing I love about our family is we are committed to each other and to our communities, and sometimes we have to fight for that. And I just don't know why it's such a hard sell for some people, including, you know, regardless of what side of the spectrum you're on politically, right or left or in the middle, we all have our issues, but I just think, God, we've come together so well as a family that I wish we could be more of a family as a country.

[06:39] MATT CAPUTO: Yeah, that's been a hard thing to deal with lately, is knowing what people stand for and how it's so much less welcoming and inclusive than what values we have as a family. And I've just always wondered where that came from, you know, whether it was because, you know, it was a while we weren't recent immigrants. You know what I mean? They can't. Your grandparents, you know, how long does it last, you know what I mean? And what keeps it going? That feeling of wanting to, you know, like I always say it about my dad, your brother, who passed away a little more than a year ago, was always finding the smallest person in the room and lifting them up. You know what I mean? Whether they were an immigrant or not, it had nothing to do with that. It just had to do with who's in here. If it's a social setting that's uncomfortable, that could use a friend in the room or someone that came into the deli that clearly didn't have as much money as someone else. I constantly had people reaching out to me saying, oh, your dad was so good to me. He gave me all this food when I was in a really tough spot or, you know, and he didn't tell us. You never knew, you know, but what keeps that sort of spirit going and where do you think it came from in our family? Because I definitely feel it, you know, whether it's your generation or older, and certainly with Pete and I, my brother, it's definitely alive and well. And I'm just wondering how, since we're all. We're a nation of immigrants, right, with the exception of indigenous tribes and things like that, like, why does it wear off? Why do people become less welcoming?

[08:46] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: That's a great question. I don't know the answer to that. But I can tell you what I've observed in our own family. And by the way, your mother is exceptional at finding people who don't have family around or need friends. Your mother, my sister Mary and my brother Tony, your father, have always done that. And I think it's because, you know, I have to go back to the immigrant, to the immigrant mindset. I mean, I'm second generation us american, but I just don't feel that far removed from the immigrant experience. I mean, because look at our gatherings. Look at who shows up at Greek Easter and who, you know, it's this collection of the community. And so many of them are like, you know, Yelena's parents and Yelena who left their home country under threat of genocide. I mean, this is your wife. We're not that removed. It's really easy to think that, yeah, we've faced a little bit of hardship in our lives growing up, but in the space of slightly less or slightly more than 100 years, we've never had to be faced. You and I have never had to face being put out of our homes because of an oppressive regime. Yeah, I remember growing up, things were really tight, you know, after my dad died. And even when my mom remarried, Lynn, you know, we were not flush with cash. I remember Marylou had to make choices sometimes between, does she pay the utility bills or do we buy groceries? And I've. I've been homeless before for, you know, when I moved to southern California, and it seems really mild now. It was devastating then, but we've never had anyone literally kick us out of our country. And Grandma and Grandpa Caputo came here for the hope of a better life. I remember hearing a story on finding your roots on PBS. They interviewed, I can't remember the actress's name right now, but her parents came from Calabria, the same part of the world where Grandma and Grandpa Caputo came from. And it was hellish over there at the turn of the century. I mean, people were starving. And I think that's why I. That's why they came. And I know that's why our relatives on mom's side came from Liverpool, England, is because it was tough in those days. You know, kids were dying, people were getting murdered. I mean, we have murders in our family. We have. You don't have to look back very far to see how far we've come as a civilization to know that, you know, we've been blessed.

[12:13] MATT CAPUTO: And maybe it's when you say murders in our family, can you tell me more about that? I don't know about these.

[12:19] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: My great great grandfather, John Green, came over with the church from Liverpool. Ingram, he and grandma Green. And John Green was an old turn of the century democrat. He was a hard drink, hard drinking, hard living Irishman, English Irishman, and somebody. This is family folklore, but somebody asked him to look after a horse, a friend of his. Well, he looked after a horse, and evidently that horse was not his or his friends. And the sheriff came to get it. And great grandpa Green evidently got smart with the sheriff or whoever came, and he was pistol whipped. He was hit with the handle end of a pistol by the law enforcement, and it severely handicapped him. And he was never right. And he died three months later. So grandma Green was a single woman, and one of her daughters was killed by her husband. So, I mean, these. I think these aren't tremendously unique stories to our family. I'm just lucky that I know a little bit about them. But I wonder if we don't get our act together as a society if we're not going to be facing these same things, if we can't put up with other people not believing like we do or seeing everyone else who doesn't look like us or believe like us or belong to the same political party or church. You know, I'm wondering how far it's going to be before we see that as a society again. And, I mean, maybe I'm being an alarmist, but it seems really critical now. I don't know if that answers your question, Matt.

[14:24] MATT CAPUTO: No, I think so. Let's go back to the grandpa's side who came for mining. But it sounds like they were more serving the mining industry than participating directly in it, which was news to me. But I know that at what point they. So they came to Carbon county, which is in southern Utah. But pretty quickly, I guess, eastern Utah, moved to Rose park and the west side of southern.

[14:55] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Yeah, the west side. Yeah. And I don't know what that was about, but basically, we come from a. I think we come at least from dad's side of the family. We come from a service oriented people. I know there was. I always heard the story that they had also come over to get out. There was, like, some political unrest. I don't know if there was a war going on then, but they left southern Italy to come here to find a better place. And they've always been in the service industry. And, you know, it's funny, because when Tony went to work for Sam Granada, we've always been in the restaurant business. We just. It's just in our blood. And I think that comes from Grandpa and Grandma Caputo. And I remember that store over on the west side near Guadalupe Chu.

[15:51] MATT CAPUTO: It started in the twenties, right?

[15:53] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: It started in the teens.

[15:55] MATT CAPUTO: Oh, okay.

[15:56] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: I think they opened that store. I'd have to check, but I think it was 1913, and that building is still there. And, you know, they were committed Catholics, and Grandma and Grandpa Caputo did not speak English. And I remember, you know, I can't remember how many kids there were. Eleven or 13. But they were raised in a two bedroom, one bath home that was above the store. And there was another little kitchen. So they had two kitchens, one in the back of the store and a little bathroom in the back of the store. And under the kitchen, in the back of the store, there was a root cellar. And that's where Grandma would sit. She'd either sit back behind the counter, knitting sweaters for all of her grandkids and children, and hazel and Rosie would watch the store. And it was the old day equivalent of what markets used to be.

[16:57] MATT CAPUTO: This was before groceries. Like, before supermarkets.

[17:02] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Right.

[17:02] MATT CAPUTO: Like, supermarkets are a relatively new thing. That probably had a lot to do with why that store ended up not being there eventually.

[17:12] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Yeah, exactly. And it was. It was a center for the neighborhood. It was a center for the neighborhood. But you told me something earlier today that I only knew half of. And that was when, you know, in our italian culture, people made their own wine. And this was during prohibition. When the feds came to shut grandma's winemaking operation down, she turned the hose on them. But you also told me that when grocery stores started to unionize, you know, and the Caputos market was open on Sunday, that they, they had to deal with protesters. And. Tell me about that.

[17:58] MATT CAPUTO: Yeah, it was an article in the Tribune that someone gave to me recently. And as I read it, it was really interesting because there was this new industry, like supermarkets, right? And they had unionized, and the workers had unionized and they didn't want to work on Sunday anymore. And so there was a law passed at the time that said that all food retailers had to be closed on Sunday. And, you know, of course, Grandma Caputo didn't comply, shall we say. And so they stayed open. You know, we've been open for Sunday all these years. By that time, I think it was the fifties, when this went into effect. I'm not sure exactly the date, but, you know, these new giant stores are going to tell me when I can and can. So they stayed open. And eventually they got to the point where it was just like, okay, they're just going to do the penny candies that they had. So that's all they were going to sell on Sunday, but they just had to stay open on Sunday. And there was a protest outside this little family market by unionized grocery workers. And it's so interesting how, you know, our modern day perception of unions, at least in the, in the political spectrum that we're in, tend to look at unions as this really great thing. And here's this union of this new industry that's going to put every business like grandma Caputo's Caputo market, it was called, was going to put every single one of them out of business eventually. And it did eventually. But here they are protesting because they're threatening them, and they didn't, according to the article, she didn't take well to the protesters there. She turned the hose on them and actually hit one of them with the metal part of the hose and apparently wasn't arrested, which was a good thing, because I think the story you told about the.

[19:54] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Bootlegging industry, the bootlegging industry.

[19:56] MATT CAPUTO: Is that she was going to be arrested, but then the story that I've heard is, who's going to take care of these children? And they basically let her off with a warning.

[20:08] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Yeah.

[20:09] MATT CAPUTO: So anyway, yeah, it's just, I love those stories, obviously, because now we're still in the food business, like you said. My dad continued that through high school and college, just always working in restaurants and then having a restaurant. And I always remember feeling a great affinity to the food industry because I remember going to Francesco's, my dad's pizza restaurant, when I was two. I'd go in there and we'd play with the pizza dough, and, you know, you and Uncle Mikey and Uncle Greg would be there, and we'd just be hanging out while dad's working, getting the restaurant ready for service. And, man, I thought that was. That was great fun. And then, of course, as that proceeded, he closed the restaurant and started working for a deli called Granado's. But then when we opened our own, you know, and I worked at Granado's with him, I remember going in when I was five, I would go in and bag ravioli for, you know, $3 an hour. That was great money back then. That was 37 years ago. Really good money. But then working at the cheese shop or at the cheese counter in high school. But then when we opened Caputos, which was in 1997, I was in, let's see, a junior in high school or a senior in high school. But then those days after that of, you know, Mikey was working there, my brother and Greg was working there, and Aunt Christy and my dad and some of my friends got jobs there. And just those early days of working the store with family, I can only imagine what it was like, you know, from, what'd you say, 1913 all the way up until when did it close? In the seventies. Yeah, was the time of my life. And I feel like that was the continuation of a good tradition which we still have today. And obviously the store's doing well and thriving. And interesting how it came full circle, like the giant industry of supermarket food retailing put all those small stores that were feeding people for. Since generations of commerce, you know what I mean? And now, now here we are having this little space to bring back things that our family never was able to in their market. You know, they were just. It wasn't a specialty food market back then. They didn't have access to any of that kind of stuff. It was just a food market because that's how food was sold back then. But now we have this. This interesting, you know, I'm more removed from Italy than they were, but here I am selling all these italian specialties and finding space in a new economic reality, and we're doing really well. And the pendulum's going the other way, which I think brings me a lot of hope, because I think that it's easy to get down on, like, everything's going to hell in a hand basket, you know what I mean? And I think in a lot of ways, there's a lot of fear like that. But to see that the pendulums can swing in other directions, and even when it seems like all hope is lost and that all these tiny little businesses have been put out, that things can come back. And to go back to your theme on the current tone on immigration, I think that it can change, and I just hope that it can. I don't know. I know too many immigrants, and I know those that I know. I think a lot of people like to think of immigrants like they're taking the east. Oh, of course they want to come here. Why wouldn't they come here? It's this great country with all this opportunity. But the ones that I know, it took an incredible amount of courage. Yeah. Looking back, I'm sure they're super glad they did it. And America is a wonderful land of opportunity, but it is not a sure thing. And from some of the people that didn't come compared to them, I think that they honestly, even though it wasn't as given them the opportunities, it was the easy road for them. For example, when my wife's family came here, after all, huge story of stuff, but starting over, imagining being at the pinnacle of your career, you know, in your late thirties, early forties, and coming to a country where you don't understand the language, even with $400 for the whole family and a suitcase each, that's not taken the easy way out. And the quality of people that choose to do that and the trajectory of work ethic that I see out of the immigrants that I know is. It's given me chills right now. It's unrivaled.

[25:09] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: It's inspiring.

[25:10] MATT CAPUTO: And I think it goes across culture. It's not just my wife. Like, their family is incredible. And they know, I think, the world of them. But I think when people choose to come here, they're on the warpath to succeed. And there's an amount of grit and an amount that I think it doesn't matter what country you come from, that when you get here and you're not in your homeland anymore, there is going to be a generation of really hard work. And I think that that is something that is extremely commendable, that we need a lot more of in this country. I think as we've gotten, you know, more and more prosperous, that some of that is being lost. And so I think that immigrants offer so much, and I hope that we can come to see it like that, because I know a lot of people don't anymore.

[26:07] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think. I think the majority of people do. And I'm happy to hear you say that because I can. I can easily go down the rabbit hole of where things go. But yet in my daily life, you know, I happen to live in southern Utah, which is a very conservative area. And I have really close friends and people that I rely on every day that are on both sides of the political spectrum. And they're all really good people. And we, you know, sometimes we talk about politics, but mostly we talk about getting our work done and helping each other out. And it's been a blessing for me to live in a smaller community where you really can't afford to alienate your neighbors. It's one of the things that I don't know that I could deal with living in Salt Lake anymore is the amount of people here. There's a sense of anonymity that I'm not sure is good for us unless we're very disciplined, more disciplined than I am when you get in larger metropolitan areas. And that anonymity is only magnified when we live so much online. So I'm happy to hear you be hopeful. And I'm hopeful, you know, for my son, Nick, and my daughter, Melissa, and my grandkids and my great grandson. Now, I'm hopeful that younger generations are being more inclusive and looking out for a broader range of things other than just look. Immigrants, I think, are the hardest working people I know. And I think that's one of the things that drive us is it's in our blood. And the other thing that drives us is our sense of commitment to the family and our sense of commitment to the community at times that comes at a cost. So. May I ask you a question?

[28:39] MATT CAPUTO: Sure.

[28:41] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: So I remember when President Trump initiated the ban on immigrants from certain countries that caused a lot of, I don't know, press and a lot of anxiety and social structures. And I also remember at the deli that you took a stand that, I can't remember exactly how you framed it, but I think you made a point to let immigrants know that they were welcome in your establishment and reach out to the immigrant community no matter where they were. And I want to know what prompted you to do that? What prompted you to. To just say anything at all?

[29:30] MATT CAPUTO: Yeah, it's funny, because, you know, we've had a long tradition at Caputo's of making political statements, and I didn't realize that because when I started making them, I thought it was this novel thing, because we started doing them on social media, posting videos of me up on my soapbox on about one issue or another. You know, it was. They were polarizing, but I realized that we've been doing that. Just my dad putting political signs up in. You know what I mean? I remember as a kid working the counter at Caputo's and, you know, taking people's order as they came through the lunch line. And my dad would have a sign up for, you know, Rocky Anderson or some, you know, always Democrats.

[30:19] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Right.

[30:20] MATT CAPUTO: And in Utah, doing that is a. It was a double edged sword, for sure, to say the least. And we would get. I mean, I'd deal with it. You know, I'd be sitting there taking people's order, and be like, you see, you got a sign for so and so up in the window. Well, if you're gonna be particular, then so am I. See you later. We're not coming back. You know, we'd get a lot of that. And to me, as a. You know, this is our livelihood. This is our store. This is. We pour our heart and soul into it. This is everything to us. This has to succeed. So I'd go to my dad, I'd say, daddy, why do we do this? Like you're. You know, more than half the people. Like, 80% of the people in Utah are Republicans. You're putting all these signs up. And I remember he told me very basically, he said, matt, he said, if you can't live and stand up for what you believe while you're doing it, and what are we even doing this for? Because we're not going to be rich, so we might as well, you know, stick up for what we believe in. And that always. That always stuck with me. And so, you know, it's funny you mentioned that one incident, but then with COVID and the political tumult that followed, there were so many of those instances where we had to make a statement that I don't even remember that specific time. I remember the issue, obviously, of. Of immigrants not being welcome, but I don't remember the decision that went into what we're gonna say or how we're gonna say it or even to say it at all. I just know that by that time, my dad was still alive. At that time, I was really blessed that he had just let us take over. He totally trusted Yelena, my wife, and I, to run the place. And so if we made that decision, it was 100% made by us. We would never have to ask him, but he'd totally support it, you know? So when we, when we, I don't remember exactly what we said, but basically, I know that we felt the need to let anyone that was not their original home in this country know that we, you know, we're glad they came and we want them to feel very welcome in our store. And, yeah, we got a lot of accolades for that, you know, but we also got some pushback. But I do. I do think Utah being a red state politically, we're definitely more open to immigrants. And I think that's a really beautiful thing. And so, you know, maybe when we look at how we heal this specific divide as a country, maybe Utah can be a good starting point because we do have an affinity for immigrants here on both sides of the political spectrum. And I remember, you know, at the time, it was Governor Herbert reaching out to the Trump administration saying, you know, no, we'll take them. And I thought that was really beautiful.

[33:39] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Yeah, I think that's. I agree. And I love living in Utah, and I embrace the LDS aspect of our side of the family, mostly on mom's side and the more structured Catholic side of the family, which on dad's side was pretty prevalent. I don't happen to, I kind of fall in the middle. I'm really happy in that middle kind of ground. I have my own relationship with spirit, but I have been proud of our leaders and a lot of the, I would say, progression of the Lds faith. I've been treated so well by both religions and people who aren't religious. I just, look, this is part of the diversity thing with me is not only political, ethnically, but also religiously. And it's just like I would not trade this little balancing act that we're in as a society in Utah. I would not trade it for anything. I think we have to live with some concessions to make people happy. I don't want to be ruled by one political party or the other, or one religious party or the other, but I also want people to have their say and their influence, and I think that makes us a stronger society. But getting back to service and welcoming and I think, again, I just think that comes from, I don't know if it comes from blood, I don't know if it comes from the environment, but it seems like we have it. And I think there's more people out there that have it than don't. And I'm counting on that. And I'll be damned if I'm nothing, not going to keep fighting for it, recognizing the good in people rather than focusing on our faults because we all have them. So I get a chance to exercise that every day. And sometimes I fall short of what my goals are. But we're tremendously lucky.

[36:35] MATT CAPUTO: When you say your goals and falling short, what do you mean? What are your goals?

[36:42] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: So, yeah, I think I'm not interested. I'm really not interested in what your beliefs are, because there are people who believe, you know, who are hardcore believers in one religion or one political ideology. I'm interested. I'm curious in why you believe that. Because if I have all the answers, I'm not going to learn anything. But there are people with really good insights who are not in my sphere. You know, I don't live in. I happen to be very lucky. I don't live in a bubble in southern Utah. I live in this conglomerate. You know, here comes the food analogies again in this stew of all kinds of ingredients from people who came over with the church when Brigham Young settled this state and people who were here before that. I'm talking about indigenous people. I'm talking about the Paiutes and the ute's and the Navajos. I interact with all these people, and the thing that I never get tired of talking to them about is tell me why you feel the way you do about this. I really don't care where they come down. I just want to know why. Because oftentimes they influence me. And, you know, I have my own beliefs, but they change all the time. I don't know if that helps, but.

[38:35] MATT CAPUTO: Yeah, I think so. I think that's a good way to look at things, you know, because we have such a tendency to demonize people in this day and age that don't believe in our way of thinking, and we've built these echo chambers around reinforcing that. But one of the things that I found is kind of what you're saying, I think, is that when you listen to why they believe the way they do, you know, whether it's, you know, like, for our family, we can't imagine how any Trump supporter could believe that stuff. But, you know, and I think you'll agree that when you listen to some of them say why they believe it, you know, there's not evil reasons.

[39:20] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: No.

[39:20] MATT CAPUTO: You know, people believe those things for. And we need to, you know, understand each other.

[39:27] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: I agree.

[39:28] MATT CAPUTO: And, you know, we can make progress if we just understand each other a little better.

[39:34] DOUGLAS CAPUTO: Yeah, I agree.