Dowin Boatright and Cecil Webster

00:00 Hi, my name is Cecil Webster. I am 38 here. And on the 28th of August 2020 in Boston, Massachusetts, and I am interviewing dowin Boatright my best friend from the Clinton Administration back in the day in college and my name is Dallin Boatwright. I am 39 this August 28th, 2020. I'm in New Haven Connecticut. I'll be interviewing my best friend Cecil Webster and

00:34 Play are you wait? How old are you 39?

00:40 Will it does that mean I'm 39. Well, you know what? It's that doesn't that doesn't matter. There's been a lot of years between then and now obviously related.

01:07 Maybe if we turn our video off it'll preserve the bandwidth so that there won't be a lag in the recording. Okay.

01:19 So I can see so maybe to start. You know, we we kind of talked about this before but I feel like at as we're both black men in medicine I do I cry think about most the black man that medicine. I know they actually went to Morehouse at some point in our cohort order at some point around that time and I was wondering if you could just tell me more about I guess one but the legacy of warehouses meant to you and then how you even decided to attend Morehouse question. Ironically. My cousin went to Morehouse that look up to him or looks up to them, especially at that time and I went to a really fine Catholic School in the DC area and I wanted an experience where I wasn't the only black guy in my like Calculus class where in biology class.

02:19 Or play Frederic was one of the place where I can be a bit more Anonymous. I've never had that experience before I moved around a whole lot but often to places where there were a lot of people that looks likes me or look like my family historically black and all mail. It was certainly a place that you know, how's it going? What is this going to be like where the people are going to be when I want to get down to Atlanta from from DC and like are they going to have interest like my only going to enjoy themselves like I do I have going to be different how they would be similar. I remember having a lot of questions about how about how about for you I didn't want is you go down there somewhere else, you know, I went to Morehouse so there was already kind of this historical light.

03:19 My mom went to fish when you're obviously not Morehouse, but still part of that, you know historically black college tradition and you know, it was interesting. I when I was in 9th grade in high school at a history Professor who is born on the exact same day that I was about ten years earlier and he went to Morehouse and he was one of my absolute favorite teacher because it's great relationship and he just kind of kind of solidified this kind of ir had to go there and then of course, you know, we both left filament not Spike Lee's always do my favorite directors, of course, you know, just looking back with all the famous black alumni that went to Morehouse. It was it was kind of a compelling argument and then I think like you said to 80

04:06 Growing out especially around that time, you know.

04:10 How race influence is your identity is so important. I felt like you'll be 250 interesting opportunity like a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be around only other black men for a while. I remember somebody asking about my time at Morehouse and I remember telling them, you know, I think it was actually the most diverse educational experience that I had and usually people looks like pretty perplexed when I would say that about an all Black Veil book, but there were people from everywhere of all socioeconomic levels in weight. So they did not have a medical school or in residency or like learning about you know, the afro Caribbean population all those kids that were from like Switzerland Geneva or what have you been like this with a smattering of West Africans and others.

05:10 You know how many of the Black Folk and Americana cool time also, you don't like it went when was that? We were it was a fall of 99 when we started like 20 years ago. And I remember walking into biology Department in the brick Matt McVay all that all that time ago and seeing all those people are all these people wanted to biology and also thinking like a lot a lot of these people are going to go to med school, but, you know, a lot of people are very clear about but I'm trying to recall to remember the first time or four times maybe that we that we met down.

05:54 I don't remember the first time since we seen each other for several years, but what stands out of my head with the time we went to Baylor for?

06:13 I recall that you always try to think back like when do we first meet and it's like it's like, you know, like when was the first time that you met your grandma? I don't really remember anything that happened right going to Baylor as well and going up there and hanging out and you know figuring out what is what is med med school like in the sky is pretty cool. I remember, you know back at Morehouse. Of course, there were a lot of opportunities to like try to squeeze in studying or try to organize something with Med School interviews and all of that good stuff in my comparing notes about this place or that place out here. They don't have a lot of Morehouse people here like, oh, I don't think I ever accepted Morehouse time and I remember Baylor College of Medicine be one of those places that had a number of Morehouse guys there.

07:13 What's it made? A lot of sense that we were both there. We had been accepted. We had like come to visit it and remember that weekend being just a lot of lot of fun at some point and one of those meetings and then I feel like we just didn't stop talking. That's great. You bring up a grade point to that. I remember at the end of every year and Morehouse, you know, the biology department they put a list of everyone that matriculate to medical school and we're all they were in the list. Are there a lot of Morehouse College kids when I made my list to apply to medical schools. I only applied to medical schools that were on that list that showed up every year my house from Warehouse meant when it seemed like

08:13 It was going to be important that I go somewhere where I knew you know, you know people color going to be accepted more houses at Morehouse guys went to but I also apply to some places that we didn't have a lot of people with places that should know. I should be, you know, continue to be nameless not getting in and I remember Dean blocker like off of Health Professions was like, you know Alexa to Morehouse guy in about 25 years. I'm like well, like I think I got about think that the sort of individuals that they accept accept

09:08 Absolutely. Absolutely. It was a lot of fun hanging out with other Warehouse guys that were already there and hearing about them and eating with people. I remember I don't think you went to Baylor Has His Name Escapes me but pillow that was Mario Kart and I was like, oh this guy like, you know, it's black guy who are Baylor and we can play Mario Kart Mario Kart during an academic year that I'm going to be out there as an avid fan of that was

10:08 I guess I had this view of medical students has always been in the library always being in the in the school and not really having a lot of time for extra stuff remember being really impressed. And also I was really impressed with the variety in the quality of Mexican food. And I think we went to Pappasito's for if it wasn't the first night in the second night and I ordered cuz she did and they came by with his bowl of melted butter and then just put it on your porch for me came through right? That's right. Yes. Yes, probably. All right, right.

11:08 About some schools being extremely active in terms of recruiting, you know people from diverse backgrounds like Baylor is going to wait for me to come talk with the dinner and you got other schools where you can't even get an interview with the emails. I interviewed. They paired me with another ask American man. He was a couple of his specialty was I think it was actually Endocrinology or something like that and we had a discussion. I was really into lives for that time of night like this whole then Saint like early Harlem renaissance authors. We talked about that a little bit but he seems kind of well, maybe that's just not what he's into a weird interview and I remember him asking. Oh I see that you graduated in

12:07 December or you'll graduate in December or something like that? And I was like, yeah. Oh, well, did you have to take more time or I remember thinking like, why would I need to take more time? I think he thinks that maybe ice trouble in some way but I'm graduating early. Like I finished all my requirements and I actually have a lot of room but I think for him like I don't think he really was able to see all who I was like, I think it was used to very much interviewing other ivy league like kids maybe black people. Maybe I don't know but I remember distinctly feeling like all this guy doesn't really

12:59 He doesn't really see who I am yet fascinating interview and someone looks like it's looking like I owe you a great on paper. But how do we know you're going to be really good when you get here and I have no idea if I think you might be here, there's always this is sumption of maybe we're potentially less thing last night that I don't actually on a deeper level like early at Morehouse. I remember to bring this program has a different acronym out, but I think at the time I was immediately and I did at Columbia. It was all in the summer like New York in the summer time so much fun. And then I realized was Washington Heights music.

13:59 But was really cool a lot of Dominican food and it was a really fun experience like learning about like, oh, how do you study? What is what is medical school? Like what are hospitals like like how do people do this thing? And I remember there was one day I was just sort of looking around and I was like, oh,

14:21 Everybody here is pretty much the same. Like I think I think we're like pretty evenly matched. Like they were kids from ivy league institutions like Columbia the real kids room or house and the Harry and their kids from like, you know, the West Coast UCLA other places in like a really small colleges that I hadn't had much exposure and we're all doing this. I like getting acquainted with what medicine was and I think generally speaking people did a really awesome job and it was fun to learn from one another. We got to live with one another we got to eat with one another. That, you know pretend to be you know, New York college students for summer was really wonderful, but I remember it wasn't until I had that experience there really realize like I do like I'll be fine like I like that some kid from you know, the 2nd or 3rd Generation Ivy league-educated individual like we're pretty evenly matched in terms of what

15:21 Academic accident perhaps absolutely. No jacket know how medical schools kind of Select people for interview and think they value I feel like so much of what is seen is important may not actually be flexing on that person's attitudes, but maybe just on their privileges. Well, I like did you have the resources to take all the MCAT preparation courses that I didn't even know you could do that. I remember when I was even taking the SAT for instance.

16:12 I wasn't really aware that there were prep courses. I just showed up and took her to the class, you know class and then you know college isn't that more of a selection Factory from your attitude. You not feel like you know, what medical schools are at the question of how they're actually evaluating people. They're going to make good doctors there at Yale and I'm up here at Harvard and you know, like I don't know that I would necessarily imagined that I would be here. I really enjoyed obviously, but I think it's something I take with me when I speak medical sonography browser fix it like Medical Center by college teams that are applying for medical school or medical center applying for residency. I think sometimes people might forget that you know, they might not speak the language of you know, where summer is a verb.

17:13 College in research opportunities, you know, we're pretty focused on the Northeast Corridor in Sanford people have some really amazing experiences out there and I think sometimes you might forget about that. How did you

17:32 Make that transition to being

17:35 You know now, you know getting a great party graduation becoming faculty and will be considered. You know, it may be an elite.

17:46 Education institution primarily serves white individuals about that. I'm severely Frank. I don't know that there and I know some might argue with this but at least for Psychiatry like it's an amazing place of a strong interest in things like psychoanalysis and I would rather be nowhere else when it comes to that. I've had such a like educationally Rich experience being in Boston. Like if there's ever something I wanted to think about. What I wanted to do was probably somebody that has this summer interest or expertise released us that might share my interest and I love Psychotherapy and I love being able to help out individuals like being a Child and Adolescent psychiatrist.

18:44 I remember when I was graduating from my child psychiatry Fellowship really looking around for jobs. You know what I want to be able to do a lot of psychotherapy and I want to do a lot of teaching and I want to see a really wide like like the first like population in my clinic and I want a lot of us and some keep my academic affiliation and continue to teach and stuff. But am I going to be in the community, and I am I going to be out there and I remember is that being a really strong. Where are you fine? Cuz you know, there's a lot of the job that they were not for psychiatrists to do a lot of therapy and not to do a lot of teaching and if they go, okay. Well, let me set up my shingle and then like

19:44 You know to my teaching voluntarily and lo and behold apparently there's a big demand for you know, a child psychiatrist adult psychiatrist. I do therapy that also look like me and Mike have expertise and racial identity sexual identity gender identity that I that I have and Cactus Creek run a virus thing people in person and who do you see in your practice? Like I would love to do something similar, but I'm just worried. They won't see a lot of kids or adults of color and then I looked at my roster and I was like, oh

20:29 Actually, like I think two thirds my people are either kids of color adults of color and or like we're individuals of some sort as I get to still serve the people that I would like but in addition I still get to teach around some of the stuff that I've really much enjoyed but I didn't imagine that that would have been a possibility table to still be a part of the institution it but still car about space week and still well, I think the operative word there is like car like I don't know that that is something that happened to whole lot maybe happened to hold on here in Boston, or maybe it happened elsewhere, but maybe not here in Boston, but that's that's something that I had to like really be imaginative about and try to do for myself like with weird coming out of all these like

21:29 How to send something like a like it's do what I want as much as I want verities and education and Med schools and stuff, you know of color or other other things like that. I'm curious how you've been able to manage that with emergency medicine.

21:52 Do you know what I think in part? I think it's some way I I've just been lucky. You know, one thing I would definitely say is I felt I started probably doing most of the research in terms of bisons cremation Workforce diversity when I was a resident and I always had there's always a good core group of individuals that would support me doing this same time. They're always probably more people close to me that my true Ventures that would actually advised me not to do it and it's in to tell me there wouldn't be much of a future for that poor people that were still kind of push me along and that being said the main reason I continue doing it was I just enjoyed it like their things I think about all the time regardless. I've been in the back of my mind. I was always afraid that I wouldn't be able to find a job doing this lights. You know, I'll keep doing it until I can do it until it doesn't work and then, you know, maybe I'll just get a regular job.

22:52 Medicine a great research fellowship with Robert Johnson Foundation Scholars at Yale. And when I give me a lot of access to I think people in medical education, I would have naturally had access to finish Fellowship pretty much the same thing happened. I applied broadly and there were three places that were supportive of the type of research. I want to see you and yellow with one of them, but the other places would flat out tell me, you know, we don't need someone that's the research and bison sound like maybe we can maybe to switch once you get here.

23:41 Being persistent willing to take a risk and some of it may have also been it was more Prestige risk like

23:49 You know, I wish I can do this everywhere, but there are enough places that we've been supportive, but he know that maybe the back your head you in a little bit of second-guessing as well. But you know, I just I just felt like

24:00 I'd rather at least give it a shot and then if it didn't work try something else but not necessarily interested in BIOS, not necessarily interested in disparities at that time. And then I you know, I can look out my window on a casement see protest going down the street around Optimum box in the Round Lake police brutality or white supremacy and other things like this and I see on my Twitter and like Facebook and all these other places, especially in there in a General Media news environment like

24:42 All of these, you know iPads and reports about like what people are doing how they think about what's happening in our nation right now, and I'm really curious like

24:52 How how have you been able to balance being a black man today being a physician who does this sort of research around bias and doing so in a way that feels comfortable. Like how how are you able to do that?

25:12 I think especially in the environment are now I feel fixed a challenging. I feel like

25:23 I think George Floyd brought a level of awareness to everyone that really wasn't present before and it took the urgency that really wasn't present may be outside of the color before but then at the same time, I feel like with covid-19 at the same time. There's an underlying tension that's been simmering for months that everything's just ready to boil over. Now. I feel like you know ago, I did some interviews of their experience and

26:02 The emotions, you know, when I first meet with him and talk when we're having pretty normal conversation, then we got more into the interview the emotions became Billy. Ron people had some just very heart-wrenching stories about the bias and discrimination experience, but it still took a little bit of time to get that point. You know what I mean? But now I feel like there a resident in the emergency room and they'll just grabbed me and they're just in tears because I think everyone is just so right now and I know because I'm some level we have to explore the problem to get the 215 out early identify Solutions interventions by exploring the problem, you know forces you to relive some of these experiences you had yourself you have Mount Airy the stories of other people with you, so I think it feel like

26:59 I feel like I had this simmering anger now that maybe I didn't have a few years ago. I think it's one of those things where you really have to love doing it to be able to kind of persist in that process agree with that. I got my lights a lot about racial identity development and not necessarily so much that are out there but rather like how I treat some of those Pisces might have come up and you know, you know

27:44 A significant history of like not looking at a lot of Scituate conomic issues not looking at this combination not seeing racism as a as a factor in people's house, but I am always reminded were men. Always I guess I say I say recently I've been reminded this one little kid and young African-American boy and you know, I could see a lot of those which is nice and a lot of the things were happening with George Floyd the kid knew more about it than I thought he might at that age but 894 in there and he was saying well, you know like

28:33 Webster, like what like do I have to not trust white people? And I remember being so taken aback is we'd just been like talking about basketball and is you know a cup coming time with his really annoying sister during the summer and I remember having an answer like I didn't know what to tell him cuz like, you know, the black man part of me was like like yeah, like there's a lot of things you got to be concerned about out there and Mike wants to be realistic and on the other side like really wanting to you know protect this kid in a clinical way and help them like understand what might be going on up there because I'm really torn in that and that's what if clinical hour.

29:24 Write it. I just want to be the one to pick your brain about you and how do you determine Cecil like?

29:30 When you can have these Frank discussions with kids cuz you know, my son is 8 years old and when Jorge Flores killed him a little bit about a week or two later. We're driving around our neighborhood and pretty much everyone around here has a black lives matter sign. Am I telling Daddy where all these black lives matter said, you know, she can still preserve some of his childhood without having to deal with all these issues that I'm even struggling with. How do you protect your children?

30:08 Innocence and protects their life. How do you talk about the items that are all around them? But also allow them to still have their innocence. I don't know. I wish I had an answer for that great about that education is

30:34 So much of

30:37 The curriculum of throughout the years like we had those Thursday with a Thursday or Wednesday where we have to go to the ground Forum like so great. Cuz I feel like you learned so much about the history of our identities like things that maybe we knew subconsciously or implicitly but now we had a historical understanding that age to begin to start processing some of those things to help me understand but why was the environment I was living in and then going back to medical school, you know, everything we learn about disease is just

31:20 Best on a purely biological levels, even then. Sometimes we getting pseudoscience with it. Right like a lot of people based on the fact that you know, there's an attic supposed to some social constructs all these racial ethnic differences that were saying, you know what it reminds me of a lot of the lectures that gives like one of them at this lovely slide up and I was like of the 1960s there's a there's a woman with a big sign saying something about Justice now looks really cool and her like a sexy skirt. And that's a good thing and Eyeglasses be beyond the the clothing she like that person could be somebody 2028

32:20 Turn around this ball looking around this summer. And I talked with residents and medical students others about like one of the most difficult things going. Our country has been our reluctance to actually engage in discussions about race and racial differences in our history as a nation and I think similar to you know, your son little dj super cute, but you want if you want to preserve his like innocence in some ways, but also protect him and I think in many ways our country has not been able to engage these conversations and wanting to protect our

32:59 Perceived innocence. Like, how do you how can you be both like a really good American usually prompt but also acknowledge our American history includes like genocide in Munchkin people historically, but but presently right into our education like so much of those discussions, like for example, like the hypertension stuff. We we don't talk or we haven't talked about. Well, you know, if you were having to be chronically vigilance about police shooting you or Ben profiles and a grocery store or being arms in some ways, I would match in your blood pressure would be hired to do you think potentially

33:51 One book me in terms of my relationship with my son and then as a nation as well. We should be more afraid that maybe I should have more Frank discussions with him. Now. I really could fuc know far more than I imagined your creatures they live in this world to me and I think it is a relative Injustice to not let them know where we are the other the other day last summer summer sometime on the cape as we often do in the summer time and some friends came by and we were hanging out on the porch and we were talking about Heritage like his his family had some I think they were touching German or something like that. And then you know, this is somebody that's very well-educated who have shared.

34:50 Over 15 years with and he turned to me and asks, where did where in Africa did your family come from? And then I pause I think I put down my orange juice when that morning or Mighty whatever it was I asked like what country am I my family is from in West Africa and return to another friend who's also African-American esthetician and many black Americans. We don't know where our families came from because they were enslaved for over the Atlantic and chains and Binoo victimized and violence.

35:51 And there's Great Wolf Lodge with people with why genetic Heritage, but to include European is well from Reno things like violent things like raped and other things he turned bright red. And I know that he knows that on an intellectual level at an intellectual level at a cognitive level. Like that was the case like that obviously had to be the truth. But in his sort of just asking babe, you know, casually all like where they from totally forgot it like it was out of his mind and I and I think that's something that happened so much. We just keep so much out of her mind is like well, you know, well did that guy he might have been violence or that guy? Oh, they said that he had marijuana in his system is like that man that black man was shot in the back. There's no scenario where that is, okay.

36:45 Right exactly exactly.

36:49 Mid-century

36:52 How do you are you coping with it now? Cuz I guess you know.

36:59 I'm leaving going again. I keep harping on Morehouse. I'm really have one child haul for him. But we are talking about the same issues like 20 times by the police read and we're having a discussion about that. But now is it different for you? That is it feels more public. It's like before it was just kind of maybe we knew about it as black people but now is on TV is on Twitter everything, you know about it. I tried to keep a really open here to a lot of different perspectives and I think for many people this has become very clear. It's like, oh my goodness. Like I had no idea. This was a historical grounding of this violence against black Americans tonight with economic issues and all of these other really important.

37:59 But I think for many many many Americans even when confronted with these really horrible videos news on Twitter on their Facebook still can place out of their minds that this is a part of a larger societal historical issue and that really hurts like the imagine, you know, being harmed victimized and then having people tell you how you weren't.

38:33 It's really real like what did you do that? You can most other contexts. We don't do that. But there's something about race in America. That's so hard. I will say one thing that has kept me going though. Is that like at least this next generation of medical students and residents. I feel like they're a lot more in tune in ways that I don't think our generation was but a lot more in tune with what's happening in the real world that I find really relieving. They're much more apps to be a bit more advocating and I think that I think

39:15 I think they do a lot better job of really engaging in ways that try to shift decided not to sort of explain Health disparities, but really like I join the protest I wrote my congressman. I'm running for congress. We talk about it amongst ourselves. But in my mind at least there was no thought of maybe addressing this with the leadership like it, you know taking up higher and higher key a couple of maybe a month ago the Yale medical students actually gave Rd in a list of Demands. I think they wanted for their school to become more anti-racist, which I thought was amazing like detailed recommendations for the school and then

40:13 Yeah, that's comforting.

40:16 The things that I am the thing that I am playing I'm paying very close attention to is what happens 6 months from now like we're not even talking about like what happens with the next election, which I think is obviously really quite important, but what happened 6 months from now when the heat of this moment has cooled a bit will those demands from those medical students from the students be heated? Like will they be enacted? Will they be acted upon I think many of us are paying very close attention at this time. I think that's one of the problems with a lot of graduate medical education resin for the ones responsible for driving these changes and at some point medical skin is going to move on move on and the question is what are these institutions medical school?

41:16 Actually Institute structural change

41:25 I hope they do I'll be paying attention. I will be I will be a part of it as much as I can and however much I can tolerate you so well, but I do wonder what the future of our medical worlds and obviously our country might be.

41:48 Did I don't know?

41:51 Do you think you I know you mentioned that you feel like the students are more empowered. Are there any other ways to see positive change since the time when I was a you might remember this I just started like my be like little tiny dreadlocks and I thought I was like the baddest thing in Houston with these little tiny dreadlocks and I remember having a sense of being a little subversive. I wonder like if somebody's going to try to give me crap about this and fortunately my family much like yours is has been really good about supporting culture my cultural identity and being proud of like who I am as an African American man Morehouse currently.

42:47 Being a part of that but I remember thinking that was like a big deal fortunately, you know, I guess I've got much longer locks these days, but I remember for me that was relatively simple versus and then when I think about what these younger people are doing these days, they're having sit-ins and lions like it feels like the 1960s or at least like what my my mom would describe but she and her fellow students used to do back in high school and I'm back in college back in the day. So I think this next Generation has something that's that's that's bigger that I I look forward to releasing develop and however, I can see for that. I will

43:36 I agree. I sleep great. Now you talk about that check you like that would be one thing that would love to see the medical education to develop is just giving medical students the tools to be effective political change agents and so forth in addition to just learning how to treat an individual when an individual disease.

44:07 Yeah, I've I look forward to that too. It's it's such a beautiful thing to see how things have been able to shift even during you know, I relatively short Cruise consider myself an early career person I guess but I would suggest perhaps not but I wonder what it might look like later and I'm and I am excited about that. It's always so beautiful to see these like medical students and residents like

44:39 Introduce themselves and say something like I do, you know, I use masculine pronouns. What soda pronounce you use or like? Oh, I see your name here. Are there like, you know parts of your culture are your identity that really matter to you in like that might have something to do with why you're here today and I never heard that I did not hear that as a necklace. And that is certainly a change and they seem more comfortable being able to have really important discussions about acknowledging the very obvious outside world that we live in in ways that we didn't do in medicine before

45:14 Agreed agreed

45:16 Yeah, well, I will say I don't I didn't necessarily expect to talk about all of that today. I really do. I love being able to talk about these things. And then I thank you for your candidness. Not that I guess we don't have a lot of that between us more and there's a lot to talk about.