Edward Hall and Daniel Horowitz Garcia

00:05 My name is Daniel Horowitz Garcia. I am 50 years old today, is March 26th, 2021 in Atlanta. My partner today is Ed and he is my friend co-conspirator colleague and come ride with us.

00:26 My name is Ed Hall also known as Edward Austin call. I am 59 years old. Today is March 26th, 2021. I'm in Atlanta and speaking remotely with my friend and colleague Daniel Horowitz Garcia.

00:48 So, Ed. I want to talk about raining today. So, how long have you been writing?

00:54 The first thing I can remember writing was more or less a dessert menu.

01:04 But I thought it was a story and the title of it was like a list of and I know it will almost certainly included the word brownies and ice cream, but I don't remember much beyond that. This is my idea of a story and I think it's a Disney animated film. I'll do all dogs go to heaven and never saw, but the the courtroom heavy rotation and the one thing that stuck with me from Those ads was the Chihuahua character gets to say I like a story with food in it. So apparently from the get-go. So I always liked the story with food in it. And so to this day I always try to get some kind of food reference into my work.

01:48 Oh, yeah. So yeah, that's that's like grade school or even kindergarten when I was doing that. And then, so, that's a bad habit. I continue today. So, you know, more than 50 years later. I disagree. It's a bad habit, but what do you remember? What why you wanted to write that store?

02:09 Cuz I like sweets and I still like sweets and I'm not sure. I couldn't tell you why, I felt it necessary to put that down on paper. I have a vivid memory of doing it again. What its content was and I don't remember that. It had an actual story and some people would argue. I still haven't figured that out. But I leave that to to posterity again and readers, you know, it feels to me like an exercise in the difference between premise vs. Plot. Your young mind had a good premise, but you couldn't figure out a plot and again people say and you still haven't I don't think I don't think it's a bad habit to have food in the store. Like that's the only thing. I agree with George r.r. Martin about

03:08 Everything everything he writes has food. And so, like all of his Game of Thrones, The Game of Throne Thrones series has a lot of very detailed accounts of the meeting and what are their eating, you know, like so the mushrooms dripping in butter and garlic and how it tastes and what it smells like everything. I think it's fantastic. I think it's great. You know, there's even one of the things that I my favorite thing that I ever second. Favorite thing, ever wrote for white wolf in fat has Christina raganos recipe for pasta. Aglio e, Olio literally could read that story. My little Mafia story from World of Darkness, Mafia and figure out how to prepare yourself. A decent plate of pasta in garlic and oil with fresh tomatoes.

04:07 And the thing is like, the rest of you are the only thing I've read his first book of Game of Thrones and I hated except for the stuff about the food, you know, I tried to read that book. Sorry. Sorry, Mister Martin. I I I love that work, this early, science-fiction stuff. What people think that he came out of nowhere. He came in, he had an enormous career as an SF writer. Beginning in the 70s. I have a signed copy of his first or second book from that era and then he wouldn't have a TV at 90. He worked on Beauty and the Beast and lot of people think he just sprung fully formed out of Television work and you know, that that is right what you want to do something by budgets.

05:07 Irony of those things that you know, that's that's the great thing about both prose writing and tonics writing is yeah. Okay, you know, there's the time element with the illustration of a comic but apart from that, right, your canvas can be as large as the page more large, given artist can make the page Encompass. And then when you're riding alone,

05:38 Again, the budget becomes Todd. And if you're like in that Lessard in school, you know, it's, well, they're paying me and, you know, they're paying me to get this done The Morbid technically speaking. The more money I make it so, you know, hats off to those guys, let Lester Cornell Woolrich that whole crew writer of Pulp SF. And you know, the famous Story Goes that a bunch of the Golden Age science fiction writer for buried in some hotel room while our crowds with outward rates and somebody differs depending on who's telling the story Asimov, Isaac Asimov, refrig Liber. One of them says, yeah, but real money's at organized religion, and they said you could see the light bulb

06:38 Go off above Hubbard's, head and literally whatever was in inventory from him? At the pulp magazines. That was the last fiction. You saw a public until he was a multi-millionaire.

06:54 Right. And then everything after that's Dianetics and in all the stuff building up Scientology that you know, arguably he had the best-selling idea of any science fiction writer in the history of the world. But I also heard the story on that is the the other science fiction writers were ripping his stuff apart because it's just what they would look at it. Be like this is stupid, like no one's going to believe this but like his bad Science Fiction made bad, but much more sellable, religion.

07:28 I literally have never seen that and go on it and wouldn't surprise me open, you know, you got that quote unquote, volume novel, read. I read that it was awful. Oh, yeah, how much of it? And I read that I, when I was a kid, when I was a kid in a teenager. I read it. Read all of it. I read the deck ology. I read Battlefield Earth. I would battle a shit. This explains some shit. It's a PTSD. I didn't realize that we could be late, Can I get the day when I just like, for me, Science Fiction and Fantasy was? Absolutely, it was my Escape. It was my happy place. Right, and I read it also. All the Forgotten Realms books. I read all dragonlance books, and all of it.

08:28 And about, and I only could get what I could find, right. Like there was nobody telling me what to read. There were no online forms cuz it was no online yet. So my exposure just came and whatever I could stumble on, and I was in, you know, Long Island or South Florida, so it wasn't like, I could go to a great second-hand Bookshop and find all these obscure thinks. What I found was the mainstream stuff mainstream science fiction fantasy at the time, right? So, Harry Harrison and the stainless steel rat.

09:01 That entire series, all of it, all of it, never ready. The Isaac, Isaac Asimov. I read so much. Isaac Asimov, The Man's, not a good writer. I read all of his stuff. I got enough or Orson Scott Card all of it, like all of the stuff, but it was all like the names that, you know, that the loaded stuff, right? It was almost. I mean, I think I was like 25 before I found woman on the Edge of Time and was like, what the hell is this? Wait a minute. Right? Right. So I was in my late twenties or early thirties. When I realized like the Forgotten Realms book site R, A Salvatore and he's awful. This is bad writing and you know, I think it's Stephen King among others.

09:51 Oh gets kind of the last word on that writing you. Right? I'm sure you can think of so many people rather Octavia Butler. Perhaps, at one end of the spectrum. If you want to look at it this way or Stephen King at another, you do in another realm inspired by looking at the work of their predecessors, insane. I could do that and I could do it better. Yes, the the one that I am acquainted with personally and literarily would be Scott card. And indeed a planet called reason is simply one of the most atrocious pieces of fiction. I ever read in its entirety at the other end of the spectrum is hot.

10:51 Novella form, which I came two years after the fact, or the full-length novel, which Thomas dish reviewed in Twilight Zone magazine in a round up with other stuff and just pray for the moon and I thought out that book and read it and indeed. I think it's absolutely, it's a couple of things. It is a sparkling is a sparkling tonic to American High fantasy at. That point was so slavish to the work of protein. Yes. I think this connect to earlier what we were saying, right? Why High fantasy is the IPA of the Jean IPA like you can't go to a craft bar and find like you just like, please tell me you have a scout and they just look at you and be like, we have a fruit beer and you

11:51 And it goes back to what you're saying because you can sit at a table and write about Galactic Wars, or, you know, this King against that King in on this house is fighting for dominance everything. And you're only restricted by your own imagination and time with the page that then that and because that have sold cocaine coming in and just basically dominating the genre, what it means is. And now reinforced by the whole Harry Potter. I don't think growling at all invented. The idea of the, the nothing kid, who in reality is, you know, the the all of that and pics are all like he was this one guy, but he's becoming King, right? So they're all Epic. It's all. So now, every single fantasy book is she was an orphan, but she didn't know.

12:51 She was the really the child of sorcerers, or he is the King of Swords always about, Thrones. It's always about the royalty, right? And it's really hard to find. It's really hard to find. Something like a fruit Lieber. Who's just like, why thank you for its labor. Who's like my load of trouble.

13:24 Why that's not been developed into a television series. Yet is a complete mystery to me. You know, what, for four decades. I think I'm pretty sure that sort of sorcery. The first, the first issue, predates, who remembers Scorpio. Who remembers Scorpio to my mind is the first original Masterpiece of of comics, right? Is David Anthony craft, Auntie different pencils, Defender story. It is. It has the first

14:05 Not explicitly gay, but absolutely gay.

14:12 Antagonist character even in mainstream Comics J. Wright Nick Fury's younger brother, also known as Scorpio. There is there to there is such a TV series to be developed from that. I already knocked it out with a friend of mine and said, how I would do it. And I totally want to do that. Oh, I would call it how you were and go from there. But the gray Mouser, you know, that stuff. That's the O'Neill Denny O'Neil and power taken with Neal Adams thinking it's gorgeous. As supporting characters in a Wonder Woman story with Wonder Woman had no powers. When she's like, Diana Prince, you know, agent of whatever.

15:11 And and Catwoman just is awkward, gray. Mouser Wonder Woman. No Powers Catwoman, right in.

15:25 Wait, you know, who it is. And, and, of course, the first person to write favorite in the gray, Mouser, it occurs to me for DC. Delaney Wonder Woman story, huh? He was that damn Wonder Woman story and in fact, mean the wizard in it.

15:48 It's I'm fumbling for the Polish name. This is so funny. I can remember. It's the Polish name for Brooke chevron. Chevron, right? The wizard is named Cameron gawron white, which always said y'all wrong, right? He's a writer plenty of his and science-fiction. Novelist John or Deborah. Can I redirect this for a bit here? Back to I want to talk about process. I mean, we do and maybe this kind of ties into a bit because High fantasy is big on plot.

16:27 Otherwise it but it's very boring. I mean, I just don't know how much you can write about, you know, trying to assume power about Game of Thrones. Tell me about Game of peasants. How do the peasants survive all this? Like? It's it's it's the same like this order. This Lord, their life. Like how was their life different? What are they doing to survive in this? That's all, you know, so, but that's that's a probably think I could process question and also a little bit. So you've written and you publish now your first novel but you've also published a bunch of stories and poems. Yes. Yes. To both of those and

17:05 So what's your is there a specific process question? You on your counter balance, the two different processes I do eventually. But right now, let's talk about specific process. Question you. How do you begin? Like, you begin with a promise to begin with a scene. Something, Honestly, I keep a running list of story titles, chapter titles, for example, was it? That's, that's one of his grace notes that I always take the heart. And that is a chapter of a novel, should have a damn Title by, right? Because it's, it's also a way of it's a way of shading, the events of a, of a chatroom of a book. So in bread aisle, for example, there's a chapter. No one that stalks the colonel.

17:54 And you get the reference there, right? No one writes to the colonel Garcia Marquez, so

18:02 You know, and and the same thing is true with with, with.

18:08 Will a poetry collection versus an individual poem, right? One of the ways that I know to buy or not to pay actual money for a poetry collection is to write down the table of content, if the table of contents is so read, like a poem.

18:26 I know I'm in good hands. I know that this person is operating on my wavelength, right, because if those titles read poetically,

18:36 The read-write they read residently the titles themselves.

18:43 Book, The Language sparkles.

18:47 I know this is poetry. I want to read so that sounds like regardless of genre. That's kind of your base. Right? Like you need to know the language also to rules that almost almost never deviate from with fiction. And that is one know, I will read no work of fiction with the Exquisite recent exception of Nancy Springer, first novel beginning with the words. It was absolutely. Not where she were to get. Was. I close it. I put it back on the Shelf. So they opening mind. Can't say it was, it is now as long as it needs to be, I think it's called Untitled novel number six or something, but the first words of which are a quote, it was right in it right quotes in intro boat. It was?

19:47 That's right. It was seriously, you will not read a word that begins with. It was not even Dickens. Well, obviously not Dickens. Yo, he plowed that for you. Anybody else is plowing already plowed ground. That's more or less how it goes. What is it about the lazy? Lazy receive receive wisdom. The other one comes from Michael Gardner, the newspaper.

20:24 Who insisted? No lengthy work of any kind Pro-Rite fiction or nonfiction to begin with but it's yawning at the reader is what he wrote and I tend to agree. You never see me start. I might have a chapter titled beginning with the but I would never be in a work of fiction or a poem with the and I probably have it somebody's going to go back.

21:00 What I will completely bend over backwards. And so, so, so now that tells you, right? And I'm a big fan of periodic sentence structure, write the opening line of bread aisle at the top of the ladder.

21:19 At the top of the ladder, the boy a teenager by m days closed. His right hand around the last run.

21:27 Periodic sentence structure, right? Beginning with a dependent clause.

21:36 I tend to do that a lot. A lot of people will insist you start with a 9.

21:44 And haven't followed immediately by a verb. I almost never do that. I always wonder right in like one of the things. I my my second Ian Campbell gave me really my second serious edit on the novel and red. I'll said was you can stop playing games with cuz he's too young for tagging us are just the name. You could see what I was doing, right? I was holding back information. And that was one of the serious problems with bread. Aisle is, I was holding back way too much information, when Michael Bishop read it and gave up on it about the same place that most men, tended, to give up on it, 60 50, or 60 pages in. I realized, I had with him too much information for him to be able to care about the characters. So I moved

22:38 The appearance of the parents of the two, young protagonist into the initial conversation in the book. After that. I found the. Do you find that you're like was this passage specific to this novel? Or do you like you find that you're more of an underwriter that like you won your first draft you leave out too much or like Stephen King famously is an overriding, right? So like he's a he's also like 10 most famous Panthers. He sits that he thinks about a character. He thinks about a monster, usually sit down and just write you just six pages a day for like, 3 months and then he cuts what about 20% of his words, which I would say is not enough, the sexy man. It is stupid. And I will say that over and over and over again.

23:33 Get on for years. I when I could still read Stephen King novels and some of them, I treasure perhaps over much, in the case of something like Salem's Lot Miriam points out how last, I don't know, maybe the last third of it last quarter of it. So you can see how how it's rushed and not written as well as the earlier portion of the stand. The original version. I hasten to point out was I think just right the first time I tried to read that revision of it and just like the updates to it were like, I don't know where like Chrome turds. Right. They stood out and then were so expensive to me that I gave up just a few pages in

24:24 Start, I started out thinking this guy can do long-form fiction but can't do short stories at all. And now, I think my opinion has sort of flipped on that I'm with you on this right here. That's the best piece of best. One of the best things he ever wrote and there's not a supernatural as he points out. There's not a supernatural note in it. I remember I read him a lot again, when I was much younger, like, preteen up, movies about 15. The last thing I tried to read of him was Dark Tower, and I got halfway through the first book and I was like, I can't read Stephen King anymore. I just can't, you got even further along than I did.

25:19 All the Gunslinger.

25:21 Call from his first publication in magazine of fantasy and science-fiction. And it just felt like a really Halo exercise. I think he hadn't it's there. So, but, but right. So, like, my original point. There was like Stephen King has a famous Panther, like he's his thing is letting don't fly. Don't, you know, it sounds to me like he's saying, this is the way I right there for this is the way to write. It's a good if I ever work for him obviously, but I don't think it works for his kid, for instance.

26:09 I riddle and King. I think Joe Hill can write rings around his old man's here. Right? So, so there's some stuff that work. I mean, it works for him. So it's hard to argue his process works for him. But his, you know, they already is a Stephen King is no, need to be more than one, right? But that died of him and Margaret Atwood, both, right? They said they got interesting characters at 3, just go and they let the characters do what they're going to do. On the, on the other side. You get people like Kevin J, Anderson, right? Select. Kevin Anderson is known for like everything everything is and you can see this on something like that. There's a guy, I forgot his name, but he has a thing called the story grid. She was an editor for a while. He does a lot of genre work. So the idea of the story good is, you know, you are honestly, the advice helped me, but this guy is also coming from the Stephen. King thing is, as this is the way to write a story that works. Right? And when he says that works is like these are the different scenes. Your first act as

27:09 You know, your your act 2 has half the scenes act one has according to steam, vac 3 has another quarter, the you have your inciting incident, you go to your middle Bill. Do you have the midterm mid-turn and then you have the climax of Denmark in the whole thing, looks like on the scene. If this scene end on a positive, the next scene has that begin on the negative and you have to like switch. So when you, he actually liked clocked out and it looks like, like a physicist, trying to start a laser. Like, I don't understand that. I looked at it. I'm like, well, I think the stuff on scene has really helped me your other stuff. Like I'm throwing the end. Everything. I tried to read one of the books he admitted using this and it's bad, but some of these books can be really good to write but this guidebook the story grid there was a book. I just bought and it's like a steampunk you

28:09 Book accepting alter history, where it's basically a crow colonialism, like, obviously the English the characters don't really develop and then like about 70% through the night. I charge my way through it because the stuff that was kind of interesting, but it was very much on, like, you know, who's going to be the first to clock, colonize this land and take the resources, right? And so you spell rooting for these various colonial power.

28:40 God. It's not Scott westerfeld. I don't think it is published. Amazon was the winner of the Arab Arab soldiers who are not really care about you there at her or Afghan, you know, the vehicle the brown natives write the white colonized rape, the white imperialist one, right? And that's supposed to share alike. And that's like this big Odessa justifying. That's the justify moment, right? I didn't even get to the scene.

29:35 No cursing. Like. I don't know what, I don't know what he what he was trying to do it other than share like brown people bad or something like, but it was also a pincer who like it's just not going anywhere. There's no place. I don't see why this year, right? And you can have a plotter who like yeah, you have your your plot already passed out but it's, it's just that lets your character suck and I don't care about this and you, this is like, where do you fall in that Spectrum? Like, once you have the idea of your language?

30:20 It was important to know that bread. I was always read. I'll originally it was originally originally, it was Tim speed originally originally and the Megalodon hunt. Then it became one. Snow megalodons or even reference to make her down to the shown up a chapter in, like, maybe I'm not writing that book. Beacham speed on Chimera Island, then it just became come your Island. Then somebody publish a book called Thunder Island. Nobody could pronounce it anyway, and I know you did me a favor. So,

31:06 Butters. What, what you have your luggage when you go once?

31:17 I woke myself in the corners repeatedly, which was an old that's like part of the old liner.

31:26 Marching orders, right? Never never extricate your characters from a situation before you put them in a new situation and not the worst advice in terms of clock. But again, is as a plotter. I'm a plotter. I'm not that interested in event for its own sake, but rather how it, how it illuminates character, how it illuminates mindset and

32:04 So yeah, I guess I would say that this book was written by the seat of my pants. But with, right, I had a destination in mind. All along. Changing by the time I got there, right? I think I I think I've decided that the thing I had was was, was going to apply superficial flying element.

32:34 And there was a much harsher outcome for one of the characters or with one of the other with one of the characters. You still there.

32:44 What are relented on that? Cuz I think I came to, like, the character too much. Have them. Do what I originally envisioned and the unit and the surrounding architecture is a book. It changed enough that that didn't make sense.

33:07 I would say.

33:11 I have a framework. I I always going with a framework. I like to be surprised on the page because I don't see how you can surprise reader if you can surprise yourself. And

33:29 You know, there was a literal year where I wrote not a word on the book of the, you know, I think I said before the 10 years and I think it actually closer to 12 and maybe in excess of 12 years when I really start looking at it and

33:50 Why do you say that you're off? Was again. I drink myself into a corner. Didn't know it had these these little rules right? Like I can't I can't you introduce a new elements to extricate them from this little friend of mine. Priscilla Smith said you the author, you can do whatever you want. So I can, we'll rig what would Beyonce oil rig? So I knew that I could include those elements that would be there, right? Like the stuff you would need to launch a weather balloon, and that's what they actually use it to get themselves out of that particular Corner. Was the things weather balloons in the things that you would need to put them in the air, right? That was The Simple Solution. Cuz once I thought about it out in the middle of the ocean right, where you particularly where people might be jamming your Communications, so you might not get weather reports. Although in retrospect. I don't think

34:50 That particular set of information could be jammed for them. They have a very particular sort of point of view. If you will own that. I don't want to spoil anything here, but it sounds like 5 minutes. So it sounds like you are more.

35:11 There, there was another editor you and I talked about this before and she had, she has a bunch of YouTube videos on, and it just kind of popped up on my feed about instead of junk Potter versus Panther. She adds another axis, I think methodical versus intuitive. So it's possible to be like what I listened to her. And I was like, that's me. I'm an intuitive plot. Like I need to have a sketch, right? So I'm working on my, I'm working on my first novel. Now. It's real different than a short story. And if that's what I've learned so far. I thought a novella was like, holy crap. This is big, not so much, but, but I need to plot, right? I need to know.

36:01 They're going to be here at this time. I need to get them here and then I need to get them there. But I'm also very intuitive. Right? So, like what else catch is.

36:11 Don't meet at The Stables and that's it. Like, I know they got to get a fight there, but actually how there for like they did with the caption reveal. So, I don't know how she's going to reveal it. I don't know what's going to happen until a kind of right through that, you know, so the way this, this editors talking about is you can plot and you can also be very into about how you get through the road, right, or you can thought to be dreaming, methanol methadone methadone, methadone logical, right? Where you, you just have everything sketched out and you are you're pulling it in but you can also be like a very lot of variety and sounds like I'm a bit more of a father than you but you and I are both pretty intuitive.

37:02 You know, if I, if I can't think of a canopy character, if I cannot see the character, but I cannot hear the chair. And this is true. If I'm writing nonfiction, like, I'm doing the history historical article or something. If I cannot hear the character talk to me. I cannot see the character talk to me. The person. I can't write it for me. I also need to be able. I need a lot of visual props and a lot of historical background.

37:33 So, I usually McMillan visual dictionary anytime I needed to see what an oil rig look like. And so the oil rig in bread, aisle is very much line. Drawing, the color code in line drawing of an oil rig, the schematic for that thing dictionary. And so, I could just look at that and know where they are in relation to the, the Dirac here they are, right? And then, and you can actually see you like what the different parts of an oil in that picture. So I'm talking about the crown Block Level, right? That's based on what shown in and pointed out with a little ripe, you know, these little bit of extra while I'm playing that part of the structure. So I know. Well, they're higher than that. They're up above the ground block level up. Even though I'm again, as I spoiler.

38:33 The thing that looks like an oil rig in red. I'll use not an oil. Rig was never meant to be an oil. Rig was never used as an oil rig. However, it is you it was used in relation to the petroleum industry. I never tell you what it's used for. It actually has multiple uses only one of them is tangential to petroleum.

38:56 There's another one having to do with where it is in the world. And again, right? What part of the part of what's going on in the book is

39:08 You have to know enough about science to be able to fill in the blank. I leave a lot of blanks and that to me. That's that's my Gracenote is. I hate hate hate as you know, Bob dialogue. Yeah. Yeah, right, you're a scientist and not going to explain everything that they know the other scientists are talking to knows. So you have to know enough to fill in the blank. I call it an impressionistic reading, you know, like the admit, when they are the impressionist painting is, you know, you don't draw a detailed woman drawn as if, like, you see a woman walking in the corner here. I see. You have the impression of the woman walking, right? And end, the guy, I can't believe this, I didn't do this on purpose, trust me, but the guy who comes in my head as kind of a model, or some of this is Hemingway, not old man in the sea, but if you've ever read a moveable feast, I love a moveable feast like when people do you know,

40:08 Whom the Bell tones by now you haven't you read Hemingway? When he's like I got bills to pay. I need to publish something. You haven't read Hemingway when he's like, I got this in my head. I have to write read a moveable feast that is brilliant writing. Anyways, it isn't a question of seems like, I'm not going to give you a detailed account account. Of this, this person walk into a bar and this is what they were wearing in, this is how the sun glinted off their eyes. Everything is like watching the bar and, you know, like he'll describe enough. You're like, okay this guy shabby and that's it. That's all you're going to get kind of a postmodern approach. Like that is McDonald's. McDonald's thinking on that was we have Television, right? I don't need to tell you what, you know, this thing looks like or how this works. Like, you know, all that.

41:08 Seen it on TV. And so she then have this shorthand where he was able to create glittering in hilarious. Dialogue amid, all the stuff that is indeed. He felt and rightly so needed no description because you know what it is and if you don't know what it is. Okay, then you might be lost but

41:35 You'll be all right. If is in fact exposed to the the technology, the Baseline technology of the 20th century, you know, which lets him do these lines like, you know, who is it? CIA? Mr. Fletcher? Could you spell that?

41:55 I love that bit. If I talk about things that don't need description to I'm a sports guy, Pat Summerall when he was a football player and then a broadcaster for CBS. Thank you was a broadcaster on a lot of super bowls with them made the transition to golf for a while. And he was just told by the head of CBS Sports, you know, you don't have to describe everything that's happening on the screen that the viewers can see what's happening. He said he was told, if you ever say the words, he made the putt, you're fired. And I lied, one specific question of back at the beginning. You talked about a book where you had a recipe in there for a for a pasta dish, I missed the title of the book that you were talking about there.

42:55 It is the, it's raining fiction. There's like two short stories, one of the beginning, one of the end book and a white wolf book called world of Darkness Mafia. And the stories are

43:13 Soliloquy. And then the back half of it is, obsequies. This interview should be like 3 hours like a lot of General, but okay cool. I'll be quiet now and thanks guys.

43:44 No, thank you.