Elizabeth Horwitz and Victoria Lopes

[00:06] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Hi, my name is Elizabeth Horwitz. I'm 54 years old. Today is Thursday, February 24, 2022. I'm in Washington DC. My partner's name is Victoria and she is my one small step conversation partner.

[00:24] VICTORIA LOPES: Hi, my name is Victoria Lopes. I'm 59 years old. Today is Thursday, February 24, 2022. My partner's name is Liz and she is my one small step conversation partner.

[00:45] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: So I'm going to read Victoria's bio. Hi, my name is Victoria Lopes I will celebrate my 60th birthday in 2022. I am single with no children and have never married. I suffered a tremendous amount of loss in my life of friends and of family. My brother was killed in a motorcycle accident back in 1984. All of my aunts and uncles died too young, either from cancer or heart disease. I was a caretaker to many family members including my grandmother, my aunt and my mother.

[01:24] VICTORIA LOPES: Now I'm going to read Liz's bio. Grew up in DC suburbs in moderately ethnically mixed neighborhood. Lost my father at 18 years of age. Went to undergrad, grad the nursing schools in DC area. I am a breast cancer survivor. I'm single but not because I want to be. I'd like to meet someone to share my life with. I have no children, in part due to my cancer chemo and it is my biggest struggle. When I was younger, I was certain that I'd be married with a few children. I work as a nurse, which has become increasingly difficult with COVID So we have a question here.

[02:10] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Would you like to go first or would you like me to go first?

[02:14] VICTORIA LOPES: Sure, either way. Let's see. I'm going back to your bio, but sure. This is Victoria and Liz. I'd love to know more about your being a breast cancer survivor. When were you diagnosed and how is your health right now?

[02:38] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I was diagnosed when I was 37 with no real family history of breast cancer. Never smoked. You know, nothing that we can really pinpoint specifically as to why I would have had breast cancer. I mean, I certainly have some risk factors having never had children. I'm of ashkenazi jewish descent, some risk factors that are known to some degree. But my health is good now. I've been cancer free since my treatment began when I was 37. I did go. I had a mastectomy, chemo, radiation and surgeries since then, but everything is. Thank goodness I am well. But thanks for asking about that actually. I really appreciate it.

[03:36] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah, I'm glad to hear that you're doing well.

[03:39] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Thank you. May I ask you a question?

[03:44] VICTORIA LOPES: Yes, please.

[03:45] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Actually, you know, I'd like, something I want to comment on. When I. When I read your bio, which I received just this morning, I was really struck by, honestly, without knowing your political beliefs. Right. I mean, that's essentially how this. How one small step really got started, is to bridge perhaps some differences. But what I was struck by is our similarities. You know, you spoke of, and I've really been thinking about this all afternoon since I received your bio. You know, your sense of loss, your experience of loss. It sounds like almost your whole adult life actually is very similar to mine. And so I was struck by our similarities in that sense, and the fact that you seem to have a strong sense of family responsibility, and I'm very close with my family, so I was struck by those similarities, you know, so I just wanted to comment about that. But my question is, so what has your experience, you know, what does your family look like? I mean, you spoke of the one brother. Sorry if there's outside noise, if that's disruptive, I can close my window. Okay. Yeah. So what does your family look like? Who's your family?

[05:28] VICTORIA LOPES: Well, thanks for asking that. And I just want to comment as well. I, too, had a similar reaction, like, when I read your bio, like, saying, like, oh, there's a lot of commonality here.

[05:38] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[05:39] VICTORIA LOPES: So. And wondered about, you know, getting into that more. But my family now. So I grew up on Long island, so I'm from Long island originally, but I've been on the west coast for quite some time. But because I didn't know anyone on my father's side, this is all on my mother's side, he kind of split when I was young, and he was in and out. But even though we had five brothers, he had a large family. I didn't know any of my aunts or uncles and met my grandparents just once. They were when my grandmother was dying. So really, that's a whole other thing. But with respect to the family I was really close to, which is on my mother's side, you know, I grew up with my. My grandmother. My mom's mother immigrated from Budapest, and so she lived with us, and I had two brothers, and I. So it was the youngest, only girl, and it was my oldest brother who died in a motorcycle accident when he. Back in 84. So he was in his early twenties. And that my middle brother, he is still in New York. And so he's kind of like, we're really close, and he has a son who is on the spectrum. My nephew is 24 now, but, you know, it's so that is like, we had a big family when I was growing up because a lot of aunts and uncles, but like I said, they've all passed away, the majority of them. So that's kind of like the last vestige of my family.

[07:14] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Interesting.

[07:16] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah. And so tell me, you know, when you say you're really close to your family, for you, what's your experience with family?

[07:22] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah. So, by the way, my, my paternal grandmother's from Budapest. Another interesting similarity there. Yeah. So, like you, I have never been married. I don't have any children, which I commented in my bio. That is my, you know, I think back to why I wrote what I wrote in my bio, and I think it's because those are the things that I feel, I guess, kind of speak to how I've, what I'm about, you know, and how I've arrived at where I am now, I guess, in life. And I always thought I would be married with children and wanted that nuclear family myself. Right. So I'm very close. I have one brother and actually one stepsister. So my mom, my parents were divorced when I was a young, like seven ish, and then my mom remarried when I was in my twenties. And so the stepsister, obviously, he had one daughter. But my brother and I were always close growing up, and he and his family are in New York, and my mom and stepfather are here in the DC area. And so my mom is the person. My mom and I are very close. She is the person who, as I say, is my little soldier. She's been, you know, through everything with me, from breast cancer breakups and makeups and breakups again. And, you know, so my mom is literally my, you know, closest friend, and that's, you know, that's really who I call my, you know, that's my family, albeit small. I, like, you, have a very large extended family, but my immediate family, that's. That's who we are.

[09:41] VICTORIA LOPES: Wow. I. I, too, am really close to my mom. Was my mom, well, she passed away, and I was caretaker person in 2008, which was really difficult. But, yeah, she and I were extremely close as well, so. And I forgot to mention that I have a half sister, but that was, you know, we just found each other after my mom passed away. So she, she came to live with us. When I was five, my mom got a phone call. Didn't know my dad had been married before, and it was his ex wife saying, I'm sending his 16 year old daughter to go live with him. And so I was five and my two older brothers, and I was like a sister you know, it was amazing. She came to live with us, but only stayed for about nine months. Then she disappeared, and I wasn't told anything, and so just found some really devastating news around why that was. And it took all that time to find one another. So that was. That's a whole nother, like.

[10:41] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah. Yeah. And you've reconnected with her since?

[10:45] VICTORIA LOPES: Yes. Yeah.

[10:46] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: That's nice. Yeah, nice.

[10:49] VICTORIA LOPES: It was. It was good.

[10:50] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah. Wow, that's really. Yeah. You have a lot of twists and turns right, in your story.

[10:57] VICTORIA LOPES: Absolutely. Many, many, I guess.

[10:59] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: As we all do.

[11:01] VICTORIA LOPES: Right? Yeah. So I see, like, I guess looking at who, the question about someone who has been the kindest to you in your life, is there someone that stands out for you?

[11:17] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: You know, I hate to sound like a broken record, but I really would say my mom. My mom is really, you know, even with her own struggles. Right. I mean, she's always been really the kindest person to me. I really don't know where I would be without her. Sorry.

[11:57] VICTORIA LOPES: No doubt.

[11:59] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[12:00] VICTORIA LOPES: I, uh. I feel your emotion, and I feel what I'm coming up for. Me, too, is, um, you know, how difficult it was when I lost my mom. And it's been since 2008, and I. I feel like my life is just getting on back on track now. And I know the things she always said, used to say to me, and what amazed me about my mom is, yes, she. She had her difficulties and struggles and things that I don't even know about, I think similar things that maybe happened to us both, but we never talked about, but was strong. She could bounce back. She had an interesting life story she would do. She was just. Yeah. And would she have a lot of health issues? And then she always stayed positive. She had macular degeneration, and when one eye went wet, she was like, so she couldn't see. She goes, well, at least I have the other eye. You know? I mean, she kept getting diagnosed with different things and had cancer and then look, and yet positive. Right. So. But the one thing she always said to me was just, all I want is for you to be happy.

[13:15] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[13:15] VICTORIA LOPES: And, you know, I've struggled with that for a lot of reasons. And of course not. I, too, wanted to be married. I actually wanted children. Right. When my mom passed away, I was in a relationship that was ending, but then I found out I was pregnant, and this was at 46, and I had actually come to peace with, okay, I'm not going to have kids, like, at that age. And then this happens, and she had just passed away. And I just found my half sister, and there was, like, this, all these things that were happening at once. And I said, well, if it's a viable pregnancy, I'm gonna go through with it, regardless of where my relationship is. And then I miscarried at nine months. And so right after my mom passed away, it was an incredibly painful time. And I had a wonderful doctor who just said, hey, I know, 46, they call advanced stage pregnancy. You can try again. And I was like, I mean, I'm not in a solid religion. You know, it was. It was extremely hard. And I was like, oh, I would have loved to have my mom around for that.

[14:24] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: But, yes, you know, when you said that your mom had died, I can imagine the pain, you know, and I'm sorry that that's been painful for you. Yeah, I can appreciate that.

[14:48] VICTORIA LOPES: So, yeah, that was. That was tough. And I. And when I really strived to be happy, because I. Not only because, but just, like, I know that was my mother's wish at the very end. I just. No matter what you do, all I want you to be is happy.

[15:03] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah, that's sweet. I mean, I can appreciate everything you just said, and, you know, I'm going to ask you about, if has your mom, would you say she was the one that. Who's been the kindest to you, or was there somebody else you would say, thank you.

[15:24] VICTORIA LOPES: Thank you for asking that, because that's when that question's really interesting. The kindest. Right. I think my mom, because she always believed in me, no matter what. And I. Growing up, I always, you know, I had some self esteem issues, and I never, like, really struggled with, like, a lot of inner critic stuff, and, you know, and she would always say what she saw in me and how she believed I could really do anything, and I'd always say, well, you just say that because you're my mom. But. But just the fact that she always believed in me and now, it wasn't perfect. Like, our relationship. We were extremely close when I was younger, maybe too close, and then when I became a caretaker, and I think some other things that had happened in the past that were she. Maybe she hadn't protected me in the way that I really needed protected. I was struggling to deal with those issues, while I also loved her, and she was my biggest ally and my best friend, so that was a challenge. But I think at the end of her life at all, it was. There was no regrets or no bad feelings or anything like that. But it was an interesting.

[16:43] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[16:44] VICTORIA LOPES: With her.

[16:45] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[16:46] VICTORIA LOPES: But I'd say she was kind. She was always kind. She was never cruel to me. She was always kind and believed in me.

[16:52] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Is there somebody else that you would say has been incredibly kind?

[16:55] VICTORIA LOPES: My grandmother was amazing woman, too, you know, farm girl from Budapest when she was 13, she was just like this unconditional love, strong woman in her own way. So those two women, for sure. What about you?

[17:12] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I would say, actually, my grandmother, I was very close with my mom's mom, all my grandparents, but also very close with my grandmother. So a similar experience with my grandmother as well. And by the way, when I, after I finished my chemo, you know, I don't know about, I'm a nurse in my work life, but I don't know about. I know about my experience going through chemo for breast cancer, but I don't know. I'm not a cancer nurse, so. But I do know that when I had my chemo, a certain percentage of women will not get their period, return, will not return after chemo type of chemo you get for breast cancer. So for me, it did. And at 41, I became pregnant. And after, it was literally the happiest day of my life. Even though circumstances weren't the greatest, I was actually not even with the person, really anymore that I had become pregnant. Bye. And then, you know, had to tell, you know, make the phone call, hey, guess what? You know, I'm pregnant. And so that was an interesting experience. And then to find out, I also miscarried. So, you know, again, I, you know, for you, I mean, I miscarried much earlier on, so nine months. I mean, the brutality of how, you know, I can only imagine the pain, how brutal and visceral that pain must have been and just so unfair and cruel, you know? But I can relate to the experience of having been pregnant and so desperately happy. Right. And really wanting that to come to fruition. So I can relate to your experience in that sense. Yeah, but. But not, it was, and my apologies.

[19:22] VICTORIA LOPES: Oh, sorry. It wasn't nine months that, in my head, see, it was nine weeks. It was only nine.

[19:28] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah, but.

[19:29] VICTORIA LOPES: But it. It's funny how I made that mistake.

[19:32] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: And say it's like, yeah, it does happen. I mean, there are still births, and so it wasn't unreasonable when you said that, but nine weeks, I mean, so I can absolutely relate to that, you know, just how brutal that is to go through that experience.

[19:52] VICTORIA LOPES: You know, like you was initially. I was like, oh, no. I just, I accepted this as, you know, I wasn't going to have kids. And then now it's a possibility. And now it's. And then I was just so thrilled and that, you know.

[20:05] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah. The devastation.

[20:07] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah. I'm sorry that you've had that experience. Yeah.

[20:10] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: For you, too. So our question. What's your earliest memory of politics? You go first.

[20:17] VICTORIA LOPES: Okay. You know, I think it had to be probably because of my age, but I remember the whole Nixon stuff was on the news constantly, and just that exposure, not understanding it enough about what's going on, but that just, it just, there was something about it that just seemed so, so heavy, you know, and having my, you know, the news on a lot around it and that, but not really understanding. And then following that, it was probably second or third grade. I know there was some, all my memories as childhood are really spot. There's a lot of things that have happened, but I remember going to, there must have been some political rally or something around the election time, and there was all these, I just remember picking up all these flyers and there was something exciting around that. So there was this, like, dark kind of moment around what was going on, but then like an election where it felt like, ooh, possibility and, and then just maybe some heated discussion, you know, around politics. But I'd have to say growing up, we really, there wasn't a lot of discussion about it in my family. I mean, other than not any debate. How about that? Like, there might be some discussion, but, but there, I didn't see any, and it wasn't really exposed to any debate or really, really get need of anything. What about, what about you? What was your early.

[21:45] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I guess similar in a sense that when I, as a child, I, you know, same thing. You know, the, the news is on the tv, but not feeling connected to politics in any great way. Right. I mean, you know, so, and growing up in the DC suburbs, where certainly politics are more in the forefront of our minds in the community, there wasn't even in my own household, there wasn't political discussion and debates. And, you know, so I didn't have that experience growing up of feeling connected to politics by any means. So my first probably real, you know, memory of politics, I guess, if you will, is, I guess, really, when I started listening to NPR, I used to, I want to stay in high school, going into college, I used to listen to nprdemen, the Kojo Namdi show, I want to say, because I remember my problem was Kojo Namdi show was what my radio was tuned to. And when my alarm would go off in the morning, the lull of his voice, I found myself falling back to sleep because his voice was so melodic that I had to actually change. I couldn't do that anymore. I had to have this blasting, blaring, like alarm to get me up. So I started listening to politics, I guess, on the radio, but again, not, not really understanding it or feeling, like, incredibly connected to politics until I think prior to the 2009 election when Obama was elected. And I guess, I don't know, you know, at that time, I had just finished my breast cancer treatment and I guess somehow it just became more my periphery and there was a lot of excitement in Washington about Obama being elected. So I started tuning in more. Right. And then all of a sudden I kind of thought, well, you know, MSNBC and what's going on here? And I started watching that and I think that's when I first remember feeling connected to politics.

[24:10] VICTORIA LOPES: Thank you for that. Yeah, that's interesting because now, as I think about it, so similarly, like as a child, not so much, and even a young adult. Yeah, but you've, you've kind of sparked my memory and saying, well, actually, probably for me it would have been 2001. So September 11, like that event, maybe I became really more aware and more engaged, in a sense, coming, having my own opinions. I mean, when I was in community college, I never finished school because things were happening and I had to drop out to deal with the family issues. But I remember I did protest. I don't know how much I truly understood, but I did a no nukes protest. I remember that. But I think back, I'm like, did I did it? You know, how much did I really know? Just, you know, I can't say what really drove me to do it. And I really understood. I mean, I think so. But, you know, it's interesting. Like, did I, was that really based on knowledge or was it just kind of, I was taken up by an idea or. Yeah, that would be for me.

[25:18] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Do you think that's evolved for you? Do you think you're more knowledgeable in recent years or.

[25:27] VICTORIA LOPES: Great question. Yeah.

[25:28] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: What are your thoughts on the.

[25:30] VICTORIA LOPES: I think before I like coming on to this interview, so I actually took this test. I was like, where am I on the political spectrum? Because now I'm really kind of confused. I think I went through a period of, oh, yeah, I know more. And then of recent years, the last few years, I'm like, what do I really know? I'm kind of questioning, what do I believe? Why do I believe it? You know? And so it's an interesting, like you, it's like that conscious incompetence that way of like, you understand, I'm, I'm riding a wave. I'm like, I think I knew what I believed in and was more in, understood what was happening. And then I'm kind of like, I, not really sure I know, you know, what I value, but I think I'm really in this questioning phase of making sure that, like, what I believe and the things that I support. Really. Why do I, why do I, and what does that mean more and more important to me right now?

[26:36] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: What do you think made you start questioning? Oh, well, just questioning your, yeah, kind of where, where you lie on that spectrum, you know? What prompted that?

[26:48] VICTORIA LOPES: You ask great questions.

[26:49] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Oh, thanks.

[26:52] VICTORIA LOPES: Lovely listener. And asking great questions. But yeah, I really think the, how divisive things have gotten and the reason, what brought me here, and I know, you know, is, is I, I just, it's not fair of me to, to believe something about anyone, you know, I just, I just felt this like, ah, there's this like we can't listen to one another anymore and we get so caught up in this. If I believe this and you believe that, then, you know, you're, you're a deplorable. I'm a, or whatever's thought about, or even people have what they might think about me and trying to talk about it then saying, made me check myself to say, even if at one point what I believed had some veracity to it or some, like, really, you know, it, it was backed up by some good reason. It's always good to say, well, is it still, you know, I mean, what do I think about that? And is it relevant now? And I, and I think I'm just really questioning it all just because I'm tired of, I want to under, in order to understand someone else. If I am not understanding really why I believe a certain way and being open to hear something else, that it's never, it's never going to end, you know? So I think that's why. Yeah, what about, what about you? How's that?

[28:24] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah, I feel like politically, I probably haven't waxed and waned. You know, I feel like I'm, I feel like my, as you said, I'm, you have values that above and beyond politics, right? That you have values that are important to you and as do I. And those values probably, I've not waxed and waned in those. They've probably evolved over right, over the course of time. But they're probably fairly consistent, though, as to when I was younger, based on my life experiences, as I presume yours as well. Right. But like yourself, I kind of felt like, you know, again, until I was sort of engaged in politics, I don't want to just be a parrot repeating what I hear somebody say. I want to really, really try to have an understanding of the issues. Even today, you know, we're in the news, we're talking about what's going on in Russia and Ukraine. And my feeling is I don't really know that I, until I was listening to some dialogue earlier today, I didn't really understand what was at the crux of the issue, you know, what was going on. Why is Russia, why are they doing this to Ukraine kind of thing? And I really had to listen to some conversation and to some dialogue and really try to learn what the issues are. I mean, I don't know, just listening to a few conversations that I have this great handle on it, but I have a better understanding than what I did the hour before listening to that conversation. Right. So I guess, like you, I want to know what, have a better understanding of what issues are, you know, before I sort of can proclaim what my viewpoint on something is.

[30:22] VICTORIA LOPES: And where do you go so when, you know, love that you're being inquisitive and saying, I want to know, but where do you go to to get your information in order to then say, okay, how do I feel about this?

[30:34] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah, I live at local news. So for me, local news, NPR, I'm a big NPR listener. You know me, I trust my sources on NPR. So I don't know right or wrong. I don't know that I question too much of what I hear on NPR. I don't know. I want to say it's like a blind faith, but I do tend to trust the source. I do watch other, you know, I watch MSNBC. I talk to, I listen to people at work. I talk with other people at work. But I would say mostly from the sources I just told you, local news, MSNBC and NPR. That's really where I get most of my intel. What about you?

[31:32] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah, similar. I mean, NPR is a big source for me, PBS NewsHour, I listen to, and then I try to, I try to listen to places like Fox News that I don't agree with just to understand what's being said there. But I'll be honest, I have a hard time and then I turn it off. So sometimes it's the same, same thing. It just feels like I'm just really thirsty for, like, news the way it was. Like you just kind of report the facts and not sensate with any, not any sensation, you know.

[32:22] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[32:23] VICTORIA LOPES: You know what I'm saying? Can't say the word.

[32:24] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I do. I do know. I do.

[32:26] VICTORIA LOPES: And then there's other places where you could say, hey, let's, you know, let's have a discussion. Let's have a debate about this. Or I also, I also listen to politically incorrect with Bill Maher because I will say I don't always agree with him, but the one thing that he does do is he brings on people with opposing views. And it's interesting to see where that discussion, and a lot of times he might talk over people. He's very like, he likes to just put his information out there and say, but I will give him credit for like, hey, let's, I want people with all different views coming on the show. And so, so that I like, yeah.

[33:01] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: That give, it does. I'm all about hearing truthful, relevant news.

[33:10] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah.

[33:11] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I have no problem hearing anything truthful and relevant. Even if I don't agree. As long as it's truthful, I'm okay with that. You know.

[33:21] VICTORIA LOPES: Now, though, let's, so here's my struggle with that. And because I too, I mean, I feel the same way, but I find myself like, you know, what is true? How do we know what is truthful?

[33:33] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[33:34] VICTORIA LOPES: We can do our best. Right. But it's like that is becoming more difficult in my mind anyways, really getting down to what is truth. Where are we? And that's a scary place for me.

[33:46] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: It is. I agree. So, Victoria, why did you want to do this interview today?

[33:58] VICTORIA LOPES: And I think I talked a little bit about that before, but truly, I don't, I really want to, you know, that that saying is like, it's better to be, to understand than to be understood. And it's more, you know, seeing that, that we're having a harder time. I'm so worried about our country, really. And mostly about the fact that we do, there's so much hate and, and so much, we're so closed off.

[34:34] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[34:35] VICTORIA LOPES: We don't have to agree. I think it's great that there's a lot of different people with different political beliefs. I think that's a good thing. I don't want to be in a, live in a place where it's, you know, everyone feels a certain way because we can always learn from one another, but we can't right now because we can't hear one another.

[34:51] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[34:52] VICTORIA LOPES: And I do believe there's a lot of fear and a lot of anger and so many reasons why. And I felt it from myself, too, where I might have a reaction around, you know what? And I want to check that and say, no, I want to see the humanity in people again, understand their views, understand their experiences, because their experiences, there's always like, I think, commonality, but also, like, what, why being more curious about other people and what they think. So this, when I heard about this, that's why I was like, yeah, once, I love the name one small step because, like, it's not going to solve like we have. There's big issues to solve. This is like, what one thing can you do? Another human being? So that's why I did it. What about you?

[35:41] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah, similar. You know, I don't know that we're necessarily on, on opposite sides, you know, so it's interesting, you know, but even if we were, you know, I'm very interested just to connect with other people. Right. I mean, so even if we're not bridging a political divide. Right. And as you say, we're not going to solve, you know, world peace in one conversation. But even if we were in one small step, bridging something or learning from each other something, even if it's not that just connecting with somebody else from somewhere else. Right. Isn't that also one small step? You know, I mean, isn't there one small step there just to connect with someone who has had traumas in life and wonderful things in life and ups and downs? Aren't we bridging one small step up there? You know?

[36:47] VICTORIA LOPES: So even, even I would even take it a step before that and saying the, the desire to show up, I mean, the fact that we are too. And connecting with the desire to. I think that's also a small step.

[37:04] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Absolutely. Absolutely. So I. Yeah. So, yeah, there's many, one small steps. Right. It doesn't just, it's not to me, it's not just the political piece. Right.

[37:17] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah.

[37:20] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I have one question for you. So are you lonely?

[37:30] VICTORIA LOPES: Okay. Really, your questions are just fantastic. Oh, Liz, I would say that is something that I have struggled with and especially around. And I don't know if this is the same for you. And I think I'm going to ask question back to you, but I, too, would like. Sharing my life with a partner is really important. And not because I can't be alone, but I just think shared experiences with an intimate partner is just something that I really, it's just a special way to go through life. There's so many, I've had so many experiences. And then as I think about my, I'm getting older, I don't have children. My family members are gone. I have one nephew, but he's autistic and is going to need to be cared for himself. You know, that prospect of being alone in that sense can sometimes, it sometimes gets to me and what I'm learning and I'm reaching out and I think doing things like this, but really making an effort to connect with friends has been good. But I, you know, I'm not one for, like, a lot of relationships. I really prefer, like, a fewer, deeper relationships than, like, oh, I've got, because I know a lot of people through all the things I did. But what I'm really craving is a sense of family and community. And right now, I haven't quite, quite found it. And so from that place, I would say, yeah, you know, I might be feeling lonely in that. What about you? Are you lonely?

[39:22] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah. You know, our age, you know, I. I'm 54, you're just a few years older than me. Right. So I asked that question because I do find it tough not having had children and, or, you know, I don't have a partner. And I guess the other piece to that is, and I think I gathered from what you're saying, I'm gonna, I'm going to go on a limb here. It's scary, right? I mean, so, as you say, as we get older and we're not partnered, we don't have children. I have nieces and nephews, but it's not the same. I really want, you know, that relationship with someone. I want to feel like I have someone to through the days with. Right. And to have that connection. And as you said, it's different with an intimate partner than with your friends. And it scares me, and I find that it's getting scarier. And so, yeah, that's why I asked, because, again, to just feel connected to somebody else in the world that might be feeling the same way. Right. I think even if you weren't feeling the same way, to know your thoughts, maybe in some way would make me feel better. So perhaps it was self serving for me to ask that. Let's ask you the question, you know.

[40:54] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah. To know you're not alone. Like, I. And one of the things, I don't know if this is your experience, but for me, what struggles is being a woman of a certain age feeling like that it's harder to partner up, that there's assumptions made about eight, like, there's some ageism going down like that, you know, how my body is changing. I'm very much what's important to me is to be able to show, like, you know, you got my gray hair. To, like, I think it's important, even though sometimes I wish, like, I looked younger, but to. And say it's a bad thing because the more that we try to change the way we look, perpetuating the idea that this isn't sexy, this isn't relevant and insightful, whatever those things are. And so ageism, I'm really struggling with and feeling like I'm not viewed as a vibrant, sexy woman anymore.

[41:59] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Check. Check. Yeah. That's how I feel. And I struggle with that, too. And I look at you and I think, gosh, you're so pretty, and any guy would be lucky to have you. And you're open and you're emotional and generous with your emotions, and so some guy would be, like, crazy to not be with you. Right. And. But, you know, but it's how we feel, right. It's not how I feel looking at you or listening to you. Right. It's how you feel. But I, you know, it's the same thing. I kind of feel like, you know, I'm not sexy anymore. Do I need to be sexy? I mean, like, what is all of this now? You know? Like, what am I supposed to be to meet someone, you know, as our bodies change and my bodies change, it's not in my body. I've had a mastectomy, and I have had surgeries and I have scars and, you know, not that. That, you know, I'm okay with who I am, you know, should I really, should these. Should I be thinking of all these things, you know? But how does this all work anymore, you know, is what I think. Yeah. And so I really can relate to. To everything you just said, you know, it's really tough.

[43:23] VICTORIA LOPES: I think it's hard even without those thoughts that come in. And I hear you say that you feel really good about who you are, and I do, too. And then question, though, like, will I ever find someone? Because are they? And I think regardless of that, I think it's just hard. It's just hard without all of those concerns and, you know, how. Just to meet someone.

[43:49] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[43:50] VICTORIA LOPES: And I know what's here. Living in Seattle, it's like that. I think that the ratio of available women to men, it's, like, so messed up. Like, it's. It's kind of like if you're a single woman, you know, in Seattle, you're kind of screwed.

[44:04] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: I think you're screwed in DC, too. I think we're, like, really screwed, period. You know, ratio of single women to men, I believe, you know, but it is.

[44:17] VICTORIA LOPES: I do feel some comfort. I really appreciate you asking that, because just to know that. Yeah. That it's an experience that's. That's shared as well out there, and we're not alone. And I have to say that how you were describing me, I would just say I'm putting up a mirror, and what you're saying is describing yourself as well. I mean, that was my impression of you. So it's so interesting. So we just know that we've. There's. We're two fabulous women, and, like, just.

[44:46] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Well, as this interview, I believe, is probably coming to a close very soon, I think that's a really positive, you know, that's a positive sort of note to be ending on, right. That. That we both, in some ways, made each other feel better. Right. I mean, I actually feel a little energized now after talking with you to, I don't even remember where our conversation started, to be honest. You know, I just feel pretty good about where we are now in the conversation, you know, what are your thoughts? How do you feel?

[45:24] VICTORIA LOPES: Absolutely. I'm really grateful and appreciative of you sharing what you've shared, and I'm feeling this connection to you because of the shared experiences, but also just a lot of respect for, like, you know, our life experiences and what we've gone through and that, you know, we're here and sharing that together. And so, yeah, it's. It's been a really wonderful experience. I do feel energized as well. I'm kind of like, oh, okay. Feeling pretty.

[45:56] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Right. That's great. I like to hear, you know, it's really nice to feel like the feelings reciprocated. Right?

[46:03] VICTORIA LOPES: Yeah. Yeah, it is. You know, who knows? You know, it was like we're opening ourselves up and being vulnerable to have a conversation. And like I said, that was the first step, and it's beautiful, regardless of what happened.

[46:13] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Yeah.

[46:14] VICTORIA LOPES: I just felt like, you know, bonus. Just a wonderful conversation in connection with you. So thank you for that.

[46:20] ELIZABETH HORWITZ: Absolutely. Thank you, Victoria.