Else Drooff and Patty Wallens

00:01 Hi, my name is Patty, and I'm 70 years old. Today's date is December 6, 2022, and I'm recording in Charlottesville, Virginia. My partner's name is Elsa.

00:16 And I'm Elsa, and I am 26 years old. I also live in Charlottesville. It is, what, December 6. And my conversation partner's name is Patty. All right, thank you, Patty and Elsa. The first question I always ask our participants is, how did you hear about one small step, and why did you choose to participate in a conversation?

00:43 Elsa? Do you want to go first, or. I'm glad to.

00:46 Either way, yeah, I can start. I moved to Charlottesville in August to start my MBA program. I had just finished my first year of graduate school with SAIs in an international relations master's program. The topic of political polarization is really a passion of mine, particularly within higher ed and on higher ed campuses. I was searching for ways to stay involved in that interest area, and I found this and braver angels. So I've also done some conversations with braver angels, and, yeah, this is sort of my way to stay involved in that work while I'm pursuing my first year of my MBA.

01:41 Well, I found out about it through the Charlottesville clergy collective. I'm on the mailing list for that. And I was just really curious. I just, especially with the pandemic, have felt so much more trapped into my own little bubble and wanted to get beyond that and hear a wider view of what's going on in the world, and more especially, to be able to meet someone who I could talk with, who is willing to have a conversation. So.

02:18 Wonderful. So the last question I'll ask before I hop off camera is we have all of our participants write a short bio about themselves so that we can get to know them a little bit better.

02:30 And then we've sent you your partner's.

02:32 Bio, what they wrote about themselves. So I'm going to ask each of you to take a minute to read out what your partner wrote, has written. And once you've each had a chance to do that, if there are any immediate questions that come up from what they've written, I encourage you to ask them, and then you can start moving yourself into that kind of formative memories section and kind of go from there. So I'm going to pass it over to you, and I'm going to go off camera now.

02:59 Okay. Also, how about if I read yours first? Okay.

03:07 Turns going first.

03:09 Okay. Hello. My name is Elsa, and I am a dual degree master's student at Darden School of Business. I'm originally from Annapolis, Maryland, but have lived in New Hampshire, Dartmouth, 18, California, New Mexico, and abroad. Prior to graduate school, I worked for an immigration legal services nonprofit. I am passionate about improving public education and political bridge building. I'm in a blue red relationship, which I have found to be increasingly rare in a politically polarized country.

03:49 And Patti's bio is I lead a full life with a combination of work and volunteer commitments and strong connections to family and friends. My professional training is with counseling with families, and I worked for many years in hospice and other family based programming. About 20 years ago, I flipped my life around and began landscaping as paid work and using my free time to volunteer in ways that feed my soul and help the world, helping start a wildlife rehabilitation center and writing the grants for it, pastoral visiting through my church, setting up women's retreats in different settings, and a myriad of other projects. I have been so very lucky to video chat three times a week with my granddaughter in Boston. This has been such a joy and has helped me survive, survived the pandemic. Additional details I am 70, married, belong to the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Charlottesville, and I'm privileged to be owned by Maisie, the best dog in the world.

04:52 I was really struck listening, reading your biography about being in a blue red relationship, and yeah, I can I. And it is really true that so stands out these days, and yet I don't think it used to be that way, that it was so rare as it is now.

05:17 Yeah. So I wrote this bio, what, a couple of months ago. So it's funny to reread it now, the back story, the brief backstory to that is, I met my partner originally when we were doing immigration work. So we were both working for the same immigration nonprofit, and we sort of developed a romantic relationship before. I think we had a full conversation about our politics. And so I think when we discovered those things, it was really difficult. He's originally from the Bible Belt. He was growing. You know, he grew up conservative, both, like, in the religious meaning of that and political meaning of that. He also went to Dartmouth, so he was kind of exposed to a more liberal bubble when he was there, but he retained sort of his own viewpoints. He kind of became libertarian. We did the pandemic together. We worked together, we lived together, and were together last year, I think, through that relationship. That is kind of what brought me into this work of understanding the other side, figuring out how to, I think, hold empathy for everyone and see everyone as human, because I know I have felt my own anger and frustration in our conversations. And then at the same time, I feel really, I have felt really defensive and protective of him when I think people are making assumptions about who he is as a person just based on some political ideologies. That being said, an update to all of this is that I'm not in that relationship anymore. That was in the last month and very much is connected to this, which a little bit breaks my heart because I was very proud of the fact that we were navigating it. I don't, I know our relationship didn't end because of politics, but really the religious divide. And it's something I question all the time whether it was the right decision or not. So, yeah, I forgot that I wrote that in my bio, but it still stands true to why I'm here.

08:02 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, I can, I would guess if this is also going to be very tender to talk about, too, if this sounds pretty recent, too, and I want to let me know if I ask questions that feel like you just want to step away from that. So I have great respect for people's willingness to go into difficult areas. And Jeff and I, my husband, we've been together for 50 years, actually. Now I know. Shocking. How does that happen? I don't know. But we've also had to negotiate a lot of differences over the years. And it's politically now it's so easy for us to demonize the other. And then if you're living with someone who is the other and how to negotiate all of that is, I think it's really, really hard. So I.

09:16 Often felt, and this is my own maybe insecurity, especially probably being in particularly liberal places and communities, I often felt it wasn't just us navigating those things privately as a couple, but the both of us, although I think probably he would have agreed, probably a little bit more me, but the both of us wrestling for wrestling with what that would do to our friendships. So there were friends that I lost because I stayed in that relationship. And he certainly, I don't know if he lost friendships, but he did. He made compromises in that relationship that he wouldn't have otherwise, which I guess is what a relationship is. But it was interesting, this dynamic of it's not just us figuring out how to work it together, but also what people's reactions to that are going to be. Orlando, how to navigate, how I want the world to see me.

10:31 Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

10:37 Immediate questions. I'm just checking this little guy because I've been known to get a little bit off of script.

10:44 Well, that's where it gets really interesting, too. So I'm not, I'm not averse to that. Don't worry about that.

10:50 Well, before we maybe move into like, this formative memories to respond to your bio as well, I have a lot of admiration for people that carve out a unique path for themselves, which it seems like that's what you've done, and you seem to put a lot of care into the environment and into other people. And I have a little bit of an insight into hospice because my aunt works in hospice and my mother is a nurse, but it's only secondhand from their experiences. I don't have that experience. And, yeah, I very much admire, you know, at least of the paragraph I've read how you've navigated your, I want to say just career, but maybe your calling, because I think about that a lot.

11:46 Yeah. And it is, it's really, it, it was really interesting. And part it happened from, I loved my work in hospice, and I was there for 14 years, I guess, and left because the administration changed and I could no longer work in that situation. But I loved the work. And then I realized, oh, if I. And then I started landscaping with friends, which is something I've always loved to do, then I realized, oh, I don't have to do care notes in the evening. I have my evenings free. So I began to do all those things that I love as volunteers. And so it worked out anyhow. It was interesting to see, as long as I let go, getting paid for some of these things that I love to do, it worked out. But it is interesting, and I kind of wish when I was younger, I had had a better sense of just a wider variety of what was available instead of having to follow a very distinct path. Yeah. Yeah. And I hope people growing up now have more of a sense that there's more choices than when I was growing up.

13:17 Well, I'm in a biased world right now because I'm in an MBA program.

13:22 Yeah.

13:23 My suspicion is I think what you're saying is true, and I don't think people feel that way. But again, I'm in an MBA program where people think if you're not making, you know, if you're not going into consulting or finance, what are you going to? What could you possibly do in the world? So this is always a nice, these sorts of conversations with people outside of that bubble are really valuable to me.

13:53 Yeah. Yeah. My cousin's son was in the dual degree program at Darden, just graduated a year ago. And, yeah, it's so I'm very familiar with what the pressures and the mindset is. So, yeah, it's. We had interesting conversations about it. So how did you get interested in politics and the whole. And immigration, too. And the whole. And to me, it was really interesting to hear that your partner, that's where you met, even though you had such very different backgrounds, was you met in that same nonprofit.

14:38 We did. We did. And, in fact, he. If we want to talk about assumptions. Right. Or political stereotypes. So Nick, my former partner, but I still know him very, very well, he actually worked with transgender migrants coming from Central America, and he was very passionate about that work and very lovely with our clients. His father is an immigrant. He's half mexican himself. And I also think, weirdly enough, immigration was a space where we have political crossover because he is libertarian. And so at least for his libertarian ideology, being open, you know, sort of the concept of open borders or opening up to immigrants is, I guess, coherent with his values. And then I think also on a personal level, he has a. His father has that connection, and he also, to go full circle. So Nick grew up not well off in the slightest. So we come up from pretty different socioeconomic backgrounds. Neither of his parents went to college, and he spent most of his summers working in landscaping. And he would say that was really informative of his and probably his character. I don't even think you would say politics. And I think he was in Texas working with. Were he in landscaping? So pretty much it was him and a ton of undocumented workers. And so that's kind of what led him to the work. What led me to the work. I have always been politically engaged in state politics and local politics. I don't really know why. I just always have been kind of, I think, somewhat innate. The immigration thing, I do have to think. I think my mother probably played a role in this because my mother got involved with sponsoring immigrants when I was in college. And so that was sort of a backdrop. And then when I graduated, I was living in San Francisco and working in tech for a tech startup, and I hated it. It wasn't what I thought it was going to be. And I had met a woman, Allegra, who had started this immigration legal services nonprofit in New Mexico. And I basically called her up one day and told her, you know, I hate what I'm doing. I also see what's happening in the news. This was 2018, and I didn't even really call her to get a job. I was just sort of. I just wanted to hear what she had to say, and it ended up being a job offer. And so I. I moved there, and I did that work for two and a half years, and then I realized I didn't want to go to law school, so I sort of decided I needed to leave for career purposes. But I definitely still feel really connected to the. To the work. I just didn't want to be a paralegal anymore.

18:30 Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

18:34 Yeah. Do you want to answer this? Who has been the most influential person in your life question?

18:41 I can. It may sound like a really odd thing, and it's not anything to do with politics, but it was my first grade teacher.

18:53 I love that answer.

18:57 A little background. I was a big kid. I was a quiet kid. I did not have a very attentive family with a very dysfunctional family. My kindergarten teacher said to my parents, I'm really sorry to tell you this, but your daughter's probably slightly retarded and won't graduate from high school. And when you were in first grade. Kindergarten. Kindergarten.

19:29 Wow.

19:30 I mean, granted, I did take those jars of paste and break them and try to eat the paste, you know, so did not look good for me. But my first grade teacher said, in the fall, took my parents in for a conference, and my parents, when they teach, the kindergarten teacher said, oh, okay. They didn't. Didn't question it at all. The first grade teacher said, I disagree with that teacher. I frankly think your daughter's a little bit lazy. And if you give me permission to work her hard, I'll have her reading by Christmas. And I ended up skipping a grade and graduating high school at 16. So, you know, if it wasn't for that first grade teacher. And what it was is that I think she was the first person truly in my life who saw me, who attended to who I was and saw what I could be. And I visited her every year through high school, you know, because she was so important to me and not just to me, to other people, too. But. So that was always the lesson for me, is what. How can. How can I help people be seen and truly seen and heard as probably the most powerful thing we can do for each other? So that's. That's who I would. I I know. She changed my life. Yeah. How about you?

21:06 I really, really love that answer. It's beautiful. My grandmother was a third grade teacher, and. Yeah, more recently, as I actually contemplate becoming an educator myself. Talk about that. Yeah. And I know what you mean. Maybe not everyone, but I can pinpoint, right? Like, the two or three teachers that transformed my life. And things would have happened the same without them.

21:46 Yeah.

21:48 Most influential person? Oh, I don't know if there's one, but I will. I'll just pick the one that first came to mind. I'm not saying that it's the only one, but. So Leah works double for me because my mother's name is Leah, and my mother has, unsurprisingly, been influential in my life. And I think Leah is also the name of my mentor from college who ran the interfaith center at Dartmouth, and she's who came to mind for me first. Just trying to get outside of mom and dad Leah, to sort of build on what you were saying. Maybe it's perhaps why she's so meaningful to me. She has such a gift to make people feel seen and to understand. She really knows how to listen. And I think having her as a guide when I was, you know, 18 through 22 was really, really crucial for where I would go in my career, because I knew I was. How do I say this? I knew how smart she was and also ambitious. And I also saw what choices she made that were different from maybe some of the more common ones I was seeing at Dartmouth. I think she is an incredible parent and partner and mentor to people. She's also now a priest. She wasn't at the time, but she has become a priest. Wonderful community organizer. And I think what I valued about Leah is that she was very good at balancing all of these identities and not over indexing on one. You know, I don't think she derived her self worth only from her career or from. Or from being a parent or from whatever. I think she drew value from all of those things. And so I look up to her when I think about the way that I want to live my life and where I want to devote my time.

25:08 So were you. The interface center was a place of attraction for you because you were searching or it felt like it fed something in you or.

25:21 Yeah, that's a good follow up question. I love having, I mean, I guess to no surprise with this, I love having conversations with people that have grown up differently or have different beliefs or especially at that time, I had such a hunger for conversations about ethics and conversations about, like, a life well lived as a nerdy moment. My 23rd birthday was a Mary Oliver themed where everyone had to. We basically had, like, we all made dinner together and then talked about, like, what a life well lived looks like.

26:12 Your one wild and precious life.

26:16 Yeah. So I really like that. And actually, yesterday, I had this realization that that is not the standard, necessarily, which I guess in my head, it is. We were in a group conversation at Darden for an assignment, and one of my groupmates, who is Chinese, he came here for Darden, but he was born, raised, was working in China, and he asked us about any cultural tension we might be feeling, if he was communicating in any ways that felt different to us. And one of my. One of the other groupmates responded that, you know, no, there had been no issue but that she felt that herself, that she had not been exposed to many international students before, or that a fair number of people at Darden had not been exposed to that before, so that it was an adjustment for them. And I realized I had. It's almost like I had to check my privilege of, oh, I've really engaged a lot with people from different backgrounds because Dartmouth made that possible for me. Sae made that possible for me, doing immigration work. I mean, I opted into it, but I also think I was in places that made that easy. And, yeah, I had like a. Oh, yeah. Like, I wonder what that would be like, because for me, it's quite comfortable, and I guess it's not comfortable for everyone. So that was. That was an interesting aha. Moment.

28:18 It just made me think of working in hospice. And then before that, I worked with families, with infants, and I always have done home visiting, going into people's homes and here in rural areas, Nelson County, Greene county and places. And I would go into homes and they would say, wow, you're the first Yankee who's ever been in my house. You know, and that sense of how isolated people can be in rural areas. And this was, you know, back before the Internet, too, so there was less contact. But that is true. It's either you're urban and then have opportunities more easily to be around a more diverse population, or you have privilege and can travel and do it, but if you're just living in your own little isolated bubble, you don't have that opportunity. And it is. It's a real different experience. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

29:27 Yeah. May I ask, where are you from originally?

29:31 I grew up in Illinois, went to school in Connecticut at UConn, and, oh.

29:37 My gosh, my mom went to UConn.

29:40 She might have been one of my classmates because she's probably actually. She's probably younger than I am, but was. I was there from seven. I went there in 69 and then ended up with my masters. And so I was out of there in 75. So.

29:57 So you might have narrowly missed it. She's younger, she's she's turning 60.

30:04 Oh, she's. Yeah, she's ten years younger. And then we went up to Vermont. Jeff taught at Middlebury, and then we moved down to Virginia. Yeah.

30:12 So I was about to compare it to Vermont, because my mother grew up in rural Vermont, and my grandmother and my aunt still live in rural Vermont. And the politics are slightly different, but at the same time, it's so similar, and yet it's so different because Vermont has that blue bend, but at the same time, the isolation.

30:37 Yeah.

30:38 And poverty and I think to some extent, the lack of accessibility to different resources all feels really familiar. Yeah. So my aunt does hospice in rural Vermont, so I'm sure she has experiences to the ones you have.

31:04 Yeah, yeah. And it's true that to me, the divide is more urban rural than anything Elsa Rural areas are the same in Vermont as they are in Virginia. I found that a very easy transition to make. We used to. There's a wonderful magazine called Vermont Life, and it's all the beautiful places. And we used to talk about doing a magazine called the other Vermont which is right behind those houses. You'd see the other. Yeah. And it's true here. There's that. Yeah. That great divide. But that's. And I look at those maps when we get around elections of where the blue bubbles are and where the huge red areas are, and it really is this urban rural divide. And unless you have this opportunity to mix, you don't really see another world. It's foreign.

32:08 No, yeah, I really agree with that. Do we want to talk about our personal political beliefs?

32:20 Sure, go ahead.

32:23 Oh, thank you. I'm just looking. I'm trying to cherry pick which question I want to answer.

32:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:34 Have I ever experienced doubt in my political beliefs? Yes, constantly. I think that's healthy.

32:41 If I can. Have you ever experienced what in your. Go ahead.

32:48 Doubt.

32:49 Doubt. Okay. That's different than what I have on my little sheet, so. Yeah. Okay. Patty.

32:55 Yeah. I was gonna say in the chat, I have uploaded a kind of updated version with that. I think that's the only new question because I saw it on another one small step program, and I really liked it.

33:05 Yeah.

33:06 As you're moving into the ideology portion, we usually start with just having you kind of describe your belief systems, and then you can feel free to move through those other. I think my brain just sort out and was like, oh, yes, I have that. Yes, for sure. And I'm hopeful that you will also dive. But, yes, I can give a brief description. I guess I would say that I am a bleeding moderate. I hold fair. I mean, it's hard for. I guess I should say I'm a bleeding moderate, but I've also only lived in, like, Santa Fe and Hanover, New Hampshire. And so I was a moderate by those standards. Maybe by normal standards, I'm more blue. Hard for me to tell. I don't actually want to be affiliated with the Democratic Party right now. I choose to be politically independent because I'm pretty frustrated by Democrats and Republicans. I'm very interested by sort of third party movements right now. That being said, I've still, I do believe pretty strongly in voting, and I did vote for Biden, and I was not happy about it personally, but I felt that that was the right decision for me. But I, I also felt strongly at the time my partner voted for the libertarian candidate. And I remember there was that whole, maybe you didn't experience this, but there was sort of this backlash of, if you're not voting for Biden, then it's a throwaway vote, or you're like, if you're not with us, you're against us. And I didn't appreciate, I personally didn't appreciate that sentiment because I didn't think it was pragmatic, number one, because, you know, I got to know Nick's community and family well, and I didn't think there was going to be a world in which they were ever going to vote for Biden. But I felt like what Nick really tried to do was, I think, convince him not to vote for Trump. So I think from, like, a political strategy point of view, I felt frustrated by that sentiment. And I also believe first and foremost, in, like, a free democratic society. And I felt that my partner voted for the candidate that was most aligned with his views, and he knew that person was not going to get elected. That was not a surprise to anyone. But I think you should be allowed to vote for, for who most aligns with your views and to not be persecuted for that, because I think that also discourages people from voting or expressing their civic duty. And I would rather live in a society that prioritizes the exercise of that right rather than who we're voting for. Yeah, that's my short version.

36:37 I share your passion for voting as the opportunity to have our voices heard. I had surgery this year, and so I was really limited as to what I could do with open heart surgery. But I wrote 400 letters to people through vote forward encouraging them to vote. I could do that. I could sit there and write letters. But you don't through vote forward, you don't go for any party. You don't encourage them to vote for any candidate. You just encourage them to vote. And always my voice was thinking little voices. But what if I'm encouraging a Republican to go vote, you know? Well, still, I still believe in that. And I have such powerful memories of being a little kid and going with my mom to vote and how important that felt and then taking my son to vote, and now he's doing that with his granddaughter, with his daughter. And I'm just so thrilled about that.

37:48 How old is your grandfather?

37:50 She's seven. She's seven. She's a hoot. She's very, very fun. Yeah, that's, yeah. I'd be interested in hearing more about how you feel about the Democratic Party and how frustrated you feel. For me, it feels like it's the best choice I have. And so that is where I put my energy and my votes. I guess if I would describe what I believe is I believe in the common good and the importance of sometimes putting our own individual desires aside to go for something that's bigger than us all. And I get frustrated sometimes because I think we get so focused on our own individual comfort and needs that we don't look at the bigger picture. And, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that, that, I guess, is kind of the bigger, bigger way that I look at that. And I would guess that there are many Republicans who would say the exact same things and that that's why they vote Republican, you know? So that's, it's interesting. It's interesting.

39:23 Yeah. Well, one thing I was going to say to your credit for doing work with a vote forward, I try and remember. Yeah, I can understand that. I'm like, oh, man, I don't want to spur more people to vote for this candidate. At the same time, I don't want anyone to be, I wouldn't want someone to prevent me from voting.

39:59 Right. Exactly. Yeah.

40:01 And at the end of the day, the issue isn't that they voted, it's that we have a disagreement about beliefs and, and maybe the treatment of others wherever it is. And I think that has to be, that's a larger societal conversation, and I don't want to, I don't want to mess with that when it comes to, you know, voting rights and you see that, you know, happening on the right a bit, so I don't want to fall into that trap.

40:37 Yeah.

40:39 I think I can't. What was your wording for the Democrat? That's the best option you have, I think, is what you said, that is what frustrates me is sort of this resignation to like, well, it's better than the alternative because I want to be striving for more or I want to actually be excited by a candidate. And I can't say I've been particularly excited about recent candidates or what they will do to bring the country together. I think, as a side note, I have, because of my work in economics and in business, I have maybe more of a fiscally conservative bend than I did in undergrad. I'm not going to go and say that I'm fiscally conservative, but I think I have shifted with sort of my education there. And I think, oh, I think culture wars are really dangerous and I also think cancel culture is really dangerous. I definitely experienced that in Santa Fe, and I don't think it's healthy and I don't want to play into that. And I think, yeah, I think I just, I don't, I personally feel that the extremist points of view in either party get more airtime than they should. And I would like to see a reckoning of that. And so I would say I'm comfortable voting for Democratic Party affiliated candidates and elections when it's me expressing who I'd rather see in office. I don't want to affiliate with the Democratic Party because I think we can do better, if that makes sense.

42:55 Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to do the party line for the sake of having that as an identity and to take away your choice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:10 So I think in a lot of ways, when I think about, like, my political activity and it sounds like you're a little bit similar, I'm thinking more about, like, political electoral reform, like reform of, I'm more passionate right now about electoral reform and political reform than I am about any, like, partisan issue. Neither. Well, I guess with Ru, I mean, there are some important partisan issues, but for me personally, the paramount issue is that of, I think, great need for reform. I just think our system's not working well.

43:53 Yeah. Yeah. How would you change it?

44:02 I think campaign finance reform is up there for me. I actually did some volunteer work working on citizen panels that bring, I think, more voice to the average citizen. I did some volunteer work with democratic lotteries, which I don't actually think should be used on a federal scale, but I think our electoral college needs to get, I mean, yeah, it's not, it's not working. I mean, the popular candidate is, like now lost several times.

44:43 So that's a problem.

44:47 What Elsa would I change? I think the way our primaries work, I think, yeah, there's a good book if you're ever into, I've read a couple books. And there's the two party doom loop. That's a good one by Lee Drutman. And he sort of advocates for, like, more multi party system, like a parliamentary system. I don't know if I believe in a parliamentary system, but, yeah, I'm interested in all that kind of reform. And there's, Andrew Yang has, like, the forward party, which I think will die out pretty quickly. A former professor of mine was trying a third party. It's so interesting to me that they can't seem to gain traction, even though there is, I think, a large, moderate voting bloc that is not being served particularly well right now. So I don't, I can't really figure out why they can't gain traction. But, yeah, there was another organization that was working to get more independence into office. I would like to see people just care more about local elections. Would love to see that. I served on the board of education when I was in high school.

46:16 Wow.

46:18 And so I was exposed to our county government and our state government. I had to do some stuff with the state government as well, but more of the local system. And there were some terrible. Even as a 17 year old, I knew they were terrible. But I mean, like 1000 people, like, no one votes. And so you get terrible. And, like, those are the people that are generally affecting your day to day the most.

46:47 That's true.

46:48 So civic education is really interesting to me. Yeah. I think for me, knowing what I'm passionate about or what I, where I feel like I can concentrate my own efforts is like, on the education side and like a little bit of like the community organizing side as well. How about you?

47:18 Well, I guess listening to you talk, what I'm really curious about is age difference and looking at how many of the leaders in the Democratic Party are old people, you know, and it was, it was, it was used to be old white men. Now it's old white men and women and a few people of color. So recently, I think more so this year, going to, I've always been working for pro choice. That's just been a very big part of my life. And going this, after this Supreme Court decision, going out to protest once again, here I am back out there, and there were more younger people with us protesting than I have seen for years. And it just, it warmed my heart. I was so glad. And talking with these college students and high school students and middle school students and saying you know, I'm going to be laying down my signs sometime. I'm so glad you're there to pick it up and just really curious about what? How can we change this so that there are younger voices being heard? And is that part of what feels so frustrating is having so many older voices that may not be as in touch with the larger group of people?

49:02 Good question. Let me. Can I think about it for a minute? Someone that I don't like? I don't like. Oh, go ahead. What? Do you have to. Oh, no, no, you're fine. I was gonna say. Keep thinking. I was just gonna add, you know, we have around ten or so minutes left, I would say. So definitely, you know, talk about this question and then I was just going to recommend moving towards those last group of questions. But of course, if there are any small things you want to add that you didn't want to leave out, you're welcome to do that.

49:32 Okay. Thank you.

49:38 You know, I'm going to say, because I think what it is, why I hesitate is because I didn't want to say this. No. For me, because we're supposed to talk about ourselves and not parties or our generations. I guess for me it's not age. I. I'm very concerned more about this, probably to your point, an urban rural divide and also, what I would say, an elitist streak. And that being said, I am an Ivy League grad from a higher, you know, like I am in that world, like, I am that world and like, of the intellectual elite. And that narrative really scares me because I don't. That's a minority of people that are smart and well intentioned and I just don't see, like, the. I think we need to find strong political leaders that are coming from different backgrounds and there are, of course, exceptions. But I think that's what makes me more uncomfortable than just like, a lack of younger candidates. Here, I'll start the closing. Is there? Oh, okay. I actually would appreciate this. Is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with but still respect?

51:47 Boy, I can't think of anything that I don't agree in the sense of, like, being a hard difference. It's just. It's more things to think about because I think we do share, you know, again, that the idea that I am so firmly behind voting as the cornerstone of our shared democracy is what I. What I really believe so strongly and what makes me so grateful to be an american because we still have that in the. Compared to so many places where it is even as fraught as it is here, it's even worse than so many other places. So I want that. I guess I feel like I would want to know more about your beliefs, and I don't. Then I have to be able to say there's something that I really strongly disagree with. Yeah. I didn't hear anything that really felt like I was getting rigid inside when I listened to. How about me? Was there anything that.

53:16 No. Which. How do I say this? This was a delightful conversation. And it also worries me only because I've done this a little bit with braver angels, and they've all been wonderful conversations. And I'm thinking that there needs to be more conversations of respectful disagreement, and I haven't yet. And I don't know, because it was one small step. I don't know who Elsa has done it, but in my small experience, I'm not engaging with the people I maybe originally signed up to engage with. Not that this wasn't lovely.

54:08 Right.

54:09 But I think we're probably fairly aligned.

54:13 Yeah.

54:14 And, um, it does feel like a very, very small step because there's a lot of alignment and I want to be put in more positions of, um, conflict.

54:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. To push my edge to. That's where. That's where I would get out of my bubble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree about that. Yeah, yeah.

54:41 I think it helps. I really enjoy. So my roommate is a PhD at UVA in the political theory department. She is a friend of mine from undergrad. And I think it's been a really, well, for many reasons, but it's a good living situation because we're probably politically aligned enough that I don't get, like, you know, offended by any statements that, like, we're politically aligned enough that I think we can have respectful, interesting conversations. I mean, this is also her field, so she knows it quite well, but she's like, libertarian, and she grew up in Florida, and so she has a little bit more, I think, awareness around conservative issues in the Republican Party. And so I really appreciate that because I think in my relationship, sometimes it felt like we couldn't talk about certain things without, well, we got better with time, but there were definitely issues we couldn't talk about because we were too far apart. And with Sam, it's like a nice, happy medium. Like, we're different, we disagree, but we have enough overlap in other areas that I think it just makes it easier to debate. What have you found in your own community?

56:28 Again, I'm in a little bubble. So I was just thinking one of the other questions was that, do I ever feel troubled with people with the same beliefs? Just recently, I did do the table, at, the democratic table at the polls this last time, and the people who were at the table before me, and then the person who I shared the table with made me crazy. I just was so frustrated with their stridency and their negativity and their insistence that everyone should be this, this and this. I was like, I think there's a lot more room for a lot more ideas, and how can we? It just, it just made me crazy. And I want to say, oh, I'm so sorry. These people are democrats. I became such a misanthrope, and I just wanted to sit in a corner by myself. You know, I was just not.

57:35 It'S on either side, really. I think people on either side, it's, when they're, it's a matter of fact, well, I know best. And this is how everyone should feel. I think anyone with any, whether I've had people say that where I'm entirely in agreement with the, with the political belief, and I'm still annoyed with them because of the way they're communicating it.

57:59 Exactly. Yep. Well, and it's, it's, I mean, it's true with religions, too. Fundamentalists in any of religions make me crazy because they share this same approach of this rigidity, and it doesn't matter what the belief is. It's the rigidity that's the problem for me. And so that, to me, translates into politics also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that's something you, you also find.

58:42 Oh, completely. I'm just trying to think from there, from that viewpoint. Like, I, so you say sort of, I guess, like, you could think rigid, flexible. I usually say I'm, I'm a gray area person, and if you're black and white, this is going to be difficult because I'm very gray. I guess maybe my one pedantic thought is, like, I sort of believe in gray area people. Like, I shouldn't do this because I think education needs to be allowing people to make these decisions for themselves. But you wonder with certain education interventions, if you can prevent some of that rigidity from setting in from an early age. That's perhaps too heavy handed, but I think the critique would be, so you stand for, like, you stand for nothing or you don't. Like, where are your morals, your ethics if you're gray? I don't have a great answer to that yet.

59:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't either. It's, it's, yeah, yeah. So.

59:59 Oh, I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna ask a closing question, because sometimes when we, there are these, like, slightly unresolved.

01:00:06 Moments, and I always try to kind.

01:00:08 Of see if there's something just as a last word. And one question that I think your conversation in particular has made me want.

01:00:18 To ask, too, is when you consider.

01:00:22 The relationships that you're having with people around you and the activities you're engaging in and the world you're seeing around.

01:00:29 You, where would you place yourself in.

01:00:32 Terms of the optimism pessimism spectrum? And if you could describe that a little bit, and then we can find a nice closing moment.

01:00:42 Oh, boy, that's a hard one. Hmm.

01:00:59 I got mine.

01:01:01 Okay. Go for it.

01:01:04 But actually, we were talking about sort of like monetary policy earlier, and it's actually helping me with this question because I would say I am pessimistic in the short term and optimistic long term. You know, the moral arguments towards justice and all that. Yeah, I don't think I'm looking forward to the next couple years. I'm worried about that. But I am optimistic overall.

01:01:35 Yeah, that, yeah, I was, yeah. The long arc of justice is such a comforting thought, you know, that we don't have to finish it in our time, but we do have to do our part. And I can be optimistic in small moments, and that's often where I have to go, is very small moments of optimism, because sometimes the bigger picture, it just makes me so sad. Yeah. So it's like this. The medium range is where it's really, really hard. If I go very small, I can feel good. Or if I go very large.

01:02:22 When I focus on people, on people, like, if I focus on my daily interactions and not the news, I'm quite optimistic. I switch that. I'm quite pessimistic.

01:02:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and then that, to me, gets into this feeling of us and other, and there's something about human nature that always wants to make an other. That is where all the problems are. Yeah, we're okay. It's all the others that are causing all the problems, so. Yeah. Yeah.

01:03:07 Agree.

01:03:09 Yeah.

01:03:13 All right, well, I want to thank you both. I know it's been a really wonderful conversation to listen to, so thank you both for taking the time to get on Zoom and get to know each other better.

01:03:25 Well, I enjoyed it. Thank you for making this opportunity. And, yeah, I think that we both had a lot more in common than we had in differences.