Eric Harris and Kate Kimmer

Recorded April 16, 2021 Archived April 15, 2021 43:53 minutes
0:00 / 0:00
Id: ddv000669


Eric Harris [no age given] talks to his friend and mentor, Kate Kimmer [no age given] about the realities of being a survivor of trafficking and engaging in anti-trafficking work. The two talk about the importance of including survivors in activism, addressing the various systems within society that contribute to it, and centering joy in their work.

Subject Log / Time Code

KK discusses the history of survivors being excluded from anti-trafficking work.
EH reflects on his advocacy as a survivor of trafficking.
EH talks about the exclusion of survivors from anti-trafficking work and also expands on some of the misconceptions about what human trafficking is.
KK shares a memory from EH's advocacy. She remembers a moment of defeat afterwords when EH reflected on the work and said, "nothing has changed."
KK discusses some of the disparities between different types of trafficking and the support they receive.
KK talks about how people contribute to the system of human trafficking and where some of that behavior stems from in society. EH talks about the need for larger community investment to break the cycles.
KK discusses her work with "bottoms", a specific role within human trafficking.
KK reads a spoken word poem she wrote called, "Dear Daddy: A Poem to Your Pimp."
EH shares his philosophy about centering joy in his work, centering solutions, and empowering survivors.


  • Eric Harris
  • Kate Kimmer

Recording Location

Virtual Recording

Partnership Type

Fee for Service



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00:00 Years old today is Friday, April 16th, 2021. I am recording from Indianapolis, Indiana and I'm here with my partner, Eric Harris, who is human trafficking lives experienced expert and has his Bachelors in Social Work?

00:20 Good afternoon is April 16th? 2021. My name is Eric Harris.

00:33 My my friend, Kay calendar play the group has issued. She's actually the director of anti-traff taking this is for the state of Indiana, but I am. What is considered a vast experience? In Fulton or expert at work? For a possible trafficking agencies, and I've been doing this work for about almost 10 years.

00:59 So when Eric approached me with this really, really cool opportunity with story corpse and on the office for trafficking in persons to share, kind of Our Lives experience, as anti-trafficking professionals. And of course, Eric's experience as an actual trafficking Survivor as well, was just a really cool opportunity. And I just think, you know it, I was really excited Eric about being able to do this with you. And you know, when we sat down and started talking about this, and I was asking you, what, what are your passions? Right? What what is, what is your kind of big scope, concerns or Trends, or things that excite you? And I think we kind of hammered in, on this on a couple of Concepts than one is really kind of successful multidisciplinary teams. What do they look like? How do they function really look?

01:59 Towards more of that long-term, hope and healing for survivors. I know that so heavy on your heart are cuz somebody who exited quite late and I think you're a Survivor that a lot of other survivors look up too. And thinking, wow. How did he do it? And how is he, you know, having a healthy life healthy relationship and that's kind of when you hold in on this concept of really talked about building.

02:26 Building community and really at the end of all of it. Fostering Joy. Isn't that what we all really deserve? Amazing working been doing over the years and I do

02:45 You know, when a person comes from a culture of human trafficking, it's really hard to find meaningful relationships. Sometimes with people that have an experience live, that kind of experience, and

02:58 Day 1, you know, you've been remarkable.

03:03 Really there and you really you happy Sheryl out of passions like I do that's why I figured you were a good person.

03:13 So, you know.

03:17 I think, you know that the multidisciplinary teams out here in Indiana. I'm not going to lie, summer successful.

03:25 Some are not so successful and maybe you want to speak a little bit on how you see this and get a little deeper from there.

03:39 I think the truth is, I've been doing this work for 12 years, you know, that Eric and I've done it in a lot of different capacities. So I've been able to do direct service has been able to do policy, advocacy and task force formation and coalition-building. And and what you really begin to recognize, I feel like as you do this work, is that because survive left out of the conversation for so long. We have for so long, been dealing with such a shallow approach to this issue and I think that it shows in the way our multidisciplinary teams are even for right? Even who's considered to be a core member, right? And probably the things people are going to say or prosecutor, right? Maybe a sexual assault nurse examiner, right? And they're not even thinking about what about our community leaders, right in communities that have experienced economic inequality.

04:40 Systemic, oppression and racism. And what about those Community leaders to have Foster, meaningful relationships. These places opportunities for folks? Why aren't they at the table? Right? Why aren't survivors at the table? White write all of these different pieces and parts and that's going to naturally. Make us not very effective, you know, about 4 or 5 years, 6 years that they don't don't call me on time. I don't have a clue.

05:17 The point is, is like, I fostered this awareness of realizing we needed multidisciplinary teams out San Diego or survivors out. There are people slaves live experience. They were at the table for everything. And so, when I first moved out here, I figured okay. I think I got enough experience. I can do my own thing. So I tried to receive and do my own thing. And then finally,

05:48 All the way the story goes everybody kept mentioning takes. So finally when I got to connect with K and she took me under her Wing from I see your practicum. I actually really see the scope of Not only was functioning what's dysfunctional for this coming from my butt experience out, doing this work in San Diego. And honestly, if there are some great Passion people that did that do, realize the important that people with live experience, need BF complex restaurant Services, expires need the money that. But to have that person, I know, for me, personally, when I was trying to change my life, but have a person that you can model traits and behaviors that you might cuz I know for me when I got out of prison, if that was the hardest thing because I

06:43 Was never really growing up. I was still a little boy at age 36, but that's because of the trauma that I injured during being in the life or the culture or the or the game. I mean, either way those with terminologies that are kind of use from people experience.

07:02 And that was the only way I was able to change that dysfunctional behavior and kind of why I came out here, you know, because of the way things were running in San Diego. I was very hopeful like, hey, Mike and disrespected. Oh, you know, I'm a person of equal, just like you, but that dream came to the end when I started Consulting for an agency.

07:33 You know, the gut never lies to you and the whole time. I had a funny feeling about it and just throughout the years a couple years. I've been with them. I realized they do not value my Knowledge and Skills do not value me as a professional and they don't even dial you. The word. I have to say all the time because I don't want to just make things without us at the table thrown at us and then expect us to make it all pretty, pretty Survivor centered, form. And that's not what I am, is a professional. I am as professionals want to build an information or solution-focused material. Because you know what, I was transitioning out of the wife, there was really no support systems at all whatsoever. I had to do everything on my own, it was traveling there and, you know,

08:26 That's why.

08:28 I know that that is like a key important function, first and abilities for survivors because that's one of the high valleys, with being in the culture is having that family Dynamic, even though it's super dysfunctional and Super Hyper violent, but still, that's like, their way of learning. What Unconditional Love? Is It? Love is within that, so culture. So when they transition now,

08:54 There's really no support because they feel they've been conditioned to think. Like all these people are bad. I can't talk to them. They're going to get me locked up or going to get me this because that's what the system has showed, you know, and it's not just an issue. That's primarily here in Indiana. It is throughout the whole United States cuz I do consult all around the United States because of the opportunities that may provide a nice as well.

09:26 ICS is the Consulting agencies that have the umbrella of agencies all wrapped around. They kind of provide Consulting for obici hotel name tag in Polaris project. That's my general understanding cuz I had the opportunity of doing the 2018 and it was a great. It was a great Learning lesson and not like that. But it really helped me started by and patient work, a building networks throughout the United States, you know, that works nothing that works but only Professionals of survivors as well. So,

10:10 That's kind of where the Consulting kind of came in to buy after that. You know, cuz I did gain examples of the gave us and ever since then, you know, I have been blessed with this opportunity project. So I know things are possible, but it's sad to say,

10:34 In here, there's not that equal Beach horseback except from certain people that understand the culture because of their experience of either providing Direct Services or having beans like you doing policy, you know, I am the way that you navigate everything that's going on. I mean, you know,

10:56 This is what I mean, you know, everybody needs to be at the table at one point of time. But that's the reason why human trafficking is such an issue, but I think out here, uniquely. It's very overlooked, The Envision, it as being like, the movie Taken and only that, it's mainly happening to people of color, Latinos and trans-gender, folks out here. And that's why

11:22 I don't know if it's from not completely understanding the culture or they're supporting the demand. I really don't know that but what I know.

11:31 Is that we have to make.

11:34 Investments into us, being able to turn around and drive.

11:41 We have to have one for us when we have to have, you know, Coalition leaders at at the table knowing that but, you know, Social Workers Health Care Providers and service providers. I mean, that's the only way. We're always going to be on the same page of the long-term sustainability of building a proper call C, because you have a person that's been affected by this, modern-day slavery at the table, from there, with experience and be able to provide unique Insight. I mean, that's one of the pleasures of doing, you know, the projects that we do is

12:21 You have you're doing it the right way. That's the way I feel. That's the only way I've ever known it and that's why I think it gets so frustrating for me out here at times because

12:34 It feels like it's a California back in 1986.

12:41 Eric, I always think about over a year ago, you it before covid you and I went to speak to a group of young people who were all survive. And, you know, I remember one of the questions that was really important to one of the kids, which we found out why shortly thereafter was was your trafficker ever, prosecuted. And I remember you laughing and shaking your head and saying, no. And I remember that kid. I'm nodding knowingly, right? She was maybe fifteen and she said, yeah mine either.

13:27 And you know, you kept your face, you did what you needed to do in that meeting to empower, those young people. But I remember when we got out to the parking lot and seeing you tear up and look at me, super frustrated and say, how has nothing changed in 30 years.

13:46 Not her. I mean, I think that her both of us and that her to see those kids going through the same cycle, the same systems and the same downfalls in after all of this time. Once I became bike, in the juvenile offender, once I became a juvenile offender, my bad. With you today.

14:17 I was never looked at as a survivor of human trafficking, you know, because that the other down play of it too. And this is where I really learned or system. Failure happens in the survivors. Is that a no?

14:34 Cassidy agency, but we'll just say a child service agency came through when I was living with.

14:43 I was living with my trafficker and

14:47 Is his back when Callie and see the red songs, like the guy never left me alone to talk to them privately. I mean, there was no lock the doors, the doors or anything. I was giving the illusion, I can come and go as I pleased. But after that experience with the agency, that supposed to save children and then you turn around and exploited me. And then after that, you know, it happened on a very young age is very super confusing on what to do because I already right there, I had system failure. And then once I became juvenile offender, boom, I'll never see her hurt. I was just look at it as a criminal and that segue into my dog food and that's why when I try to, you know, 18 life when I transferred, I'll do, you know, the foster care system. There was nothing for me to transition back into. So what if I go back to went back to the original of user that did the most harm to me into a way dysfunctional lifestyle. So, I went back to what I knew, which was dealing drugs around this tree.

15:47 Doing things that survived, you know, sleeping with random people because that's what I knew. And that's what I was wearing. The not telling you how to survive and only that but instead investing in the rehabilitation.

16:01 That probably wouldn't happen, you know putting the safeguards are in place instead of looking me as a fender cuz he did put me in a treatment program. But they're in that before there was a common form of protest that has behavioral therapy. And what does that say to someone? That's going to see Sac. But a kid is already confused about how relationships are in anything and they take you away from everything, you know, before traveling to a different part of the state. The only reason why I was going to start one up the phone, I'm trying to convey is that and that's why I got experience. I'm trying to go back to experience with kids. That's why nothing has changed.

16:51 I think that goes back to that, and it original.

16:56 Conversation that we started today around multidisciplinary teams, which kind of will be moving on from here shortly, but I just want to reiterate. I think that most Folks at this point, thus far as anti-trafficking work feel like they know when a multidisciplinary team should look like and I feel like most of them are missing some of the most important stakeholders to transform cycles of time. And I think that people,

17:24 Underestimate, how much?

17:28 Momentum and energy there is between intergenerational and cycles of violence. And so this idea that we're going to end something without giving it space to allow that momentum to go somewhere, positive is not realistic, right? So that's why I'm so I'm I know you've heard me say that hundred times, but I feel like I'm so intentional about using that word transform. You want to take that energy. We want to take the resilience. We want to take the resourceful that we want to take the survivorship and we want a funnel it into something that makes sense, something that's beautiful. Something that offers Joy on something that builds Community, something that builds life. And and I think I think, you know, that kind of is a natural transition. If you're ready to kind of go into a little bit more about our community building conversation in our kind of long-term relationship conversation.

18:23 And I think it's, it's strange for somebody like me who has done anti-trafficking work all over the United States, but also in other countries and it it is worth noting that different types of trafficking.

18:40 Find themselves to be Blended particular tools by particular States. Right? And I mean, state is in state after isn't as in country. So when you have particular laws and policies that perpetuate and codify structural violence, right that marginalized poor people that marginalized people of color that marginalized women, that whatever it is, right, we're going to see that. It's exactly those people groups write that are at the highest risk for experiencing trafficking and believing. They have to endure it believing. There is nobody. Who will believe them. The system is not for them. The system is not going to protect them, and are they wrong? That is the key. And also, you know, is really a simple answer this building.

19:40 Virginity at all whatsoever. Of course exploitation is going to happen is because knowing the intergenerational I've noticed there is no opportunity. I mean letting them have their voice at the table and specially, you know, people color and transgender folks. I mean set up investing in the community and making those proper interventions. They're just watching our kids up being raped for financial gain from another person.

20:30 But there's no investment into them at all whatsoever, and instead of insisting them and finding the rehabilitation services, especially if they do not want to collaborate with the criminal justice system. They automatically get young become sexual offender in the state of Indiana. And I think it's really complex.

20:52 That they have to jump only but normally she got any to, you know, Transformer stuff like that.

21:00 But walking up our kids. It's really barrier on barrier on barrier and I, you know, Eric I also think and I'm interested in your opinion on this. I think, you know, we've done a lot of trainings together over the last year-and-a-half and he's certainly seen plenty of my training. And I think the number one thing I'm always trying to hammer home to my audience is that they are a part of trafficking. So either they're part of the solution or they're part of the problem. And I think people find that very uncomfortable, right? Like, no, I'm not, I'm not purchasing a, I buy cruelty-free whatever, whatever it is. And the reality is that every single one of you sitting in that audience.

21:47 Has sat next to a human trafficking Survivor, whether it was in your high school class or the pew at your church has, literally stood in line at the grocery store with a human trafficking Survivor. And you know what you did? You treated them. Exactly the way that their trafficker told you, you would treat them. Like they were invisible. Like they were not enough like they were not worthy of your time. Like they were not worthy of hanging out with your kids. I always think back to that. I know I told this story a lot, but I think back to when I first moved Indiana, I was 11 years old. My first year of Middle School. My middle school teacher called my mom and said, hey, I think you need to know that Kate's really hanging out with the wrong kid, and, you know, the story of my mom said, hey, I think you need to know that those kids are hanging out with the right, right? And so what, what my mom knew Ray was that those kids were coming to my home. They were getting tutored. They were getting dinner. We were driving them home, right? So, of course, those were the same kids. I was

22:47 Within the classroom and they might not have come from the safe neighborhoods. In fact, they did not and they might not have come from a family that they did not but they were kids that needed somebody to care about and invest it right in and that's exactly what we did. And so I guess I'm lucky and blessed in the fact that I grew up in a home where, my parents were always investing in our local community where they were always trying to understand some of these. But I think a lot of times we get, just like you said, it's a kiddo who went through the Juvenile Justice System. We get caught up in a behavior that we see, and we go, I don't want to be around that, whatever it is, right? And then we go see, that's not my problem that the problem right? And suddenly we just absolved ourselves as a community of being the village that raises our kids. And that means we get to celebrate our win with our kids, right, but that also means that we also take on shared.

23:40 Wright that's causing our community. And so I think that's a tough thing for. They don't want to believe they're that close to it, you know, and so when we talked about community building and we talk about investment and you and I are really mean, right, we mean that with your dollars, weaning that with your time, we mean that with your talents and I and I know that I believe if every person who is really healthy and able to do that invested in one, other human in a meaningful way, we would transform him. And, you know, when we, when we do that as a society, it makes it really easy to dehumanize that person and that's pretty much, you know, someone with experience especially.

24:40 The dancers really. So simple, let's just invest in the kit. Let's give him after school program. I mean, honestly, this is this is a sad reality to when I was growing up as a kid, they were dissolving off. So now we have like probably two generations of kids that have never had any kind of investment into themselves and only that, but that's where you get an application for the cycles of the end up. Intersecting with the street culture is that there is no opportunities. You got to make, you got to make something, you got to put food. You know, you have a family to provider.

25:20 And that's why I'm also sorry if that's what most crime is because there's no opportunity and annoying. But

25:29 You got a hustle to bike live and survive and and I think it is so simple, so simple. If I can intervention, that just Destiny can listen to be hurt. You know, what was stop the cycle of a new generation will be used instead of investing in doing. No Community intervention. This, you know, that would be probably cheaper and sustainable now, it's just walk them up. Let's throw, you know, it was starting to the prison and I'll download the prison pipeline. You know, that I'm a prime example.

26:03 Annoying. But really, until we have, this is going to sound very taboo to the listeners, but

26:12 We need to have.

26:14 Let's experience survivors that have been affected by human trafficking. But we also need the traffickers that I've reform themselves and started reading their community. And I mean this is not favorable to me, but the job I mean until we have all those people at the table.

26:37 What's the origin? You know, and I feel this sometimes as we're just finding a trauma narrative, when we're getting nowhere. That's why I made a promise to myself. It doesn't matter what it is and it's not the most lucrative private, but I am no longer sitting area. I want to bring real tangible solution, Focus stuff so that way we can least.

26:59 Have a better of the chance of resolving this year. Instead of perpetuating the way we have them by doing the interventions are out there now, and I'm not talking. I'm just saying, you know, there's a special way out here and I know throughout the United States and I consulted with while these people, you know, they're, they're really good,. So, I brought over some important agencies that build up the sustainability. But again, I think I was back when we start doing it when their kids. We don't have to invest it into a brother though. Yeah. I think there's a lot to be said for that. I think there's just like

27:36 You know, I just want to highlight something. You just said, Eric, but I think I might just do the Dear Daddy at home to your spoken word piece. And the reason why I'm I think I'm about to do that is because I think, you know, it's interesting that you brought up the point about bringing in buyers bringing in. You know, when were talking about sex trafficking, right? Bringing in buyers bringing in traffickers bringing in Bottoms. I'm am bringing in you. No more traditional human trafficking victims, call to the table to talk about transforming the cycle. Will what you're looking at is the whole cycle, right? At that point. You're not looking at a piece of the puzzle are looking at the pool, right? And I think it's been interesting in the years that I've done this work and we do, you know, this Eric but not everybody does specialization is working with identify are the top of the victim higher in traditional Peis trafficking, right? And so, when you're working with somebody who has navigated in,

28:36 They gave it a tremendous amount. But also, there is an interesting race pace. And if you find yourself in, and you really tried to understand a whole person to help a whole person make and sustain the changes. They needs you to be healthy people to be. Joyful, people to beam from people, living out their passion, in their purpose. And, you know, this Eric. But several weeks ago. I had an attorney reached out to me and literally say to me, do these guys really believe what they're saying, right, when when she's listening to this recorded, line of this person who has been charged with human trafficking and he's calling home from the prison. And she's hearing him say these things that she's going to do. They really believe this. And he know, when she said that to me, I had, I immediately had the spoken word piece, just come to my mind and I wrote it out and it really made me think about those cycles and it's not an excuse. There is no excuse for exploitation or abused.

29:36 However, if you want to be radically transformative in the work that you do, you better be ready to take all the pieces of the puzzle and you better be ready to look at those underlying causes right that those root causes of violence and get ready to transform. Right? And so is it okay with you? If I do not have that great opportunity to watch that training that was made for players out of here. He's out throughout Indiana. I think very impactful because, you know, people may think they have a general understanding, but the fact that the way it was written, it brings both points to the table about a person goes through when they're caught up in the life of a shoe.

30:29 Please do. I will I will share that. I will start by sharing that this is a thoroughly triggering poem. It's pretty explicit and it is

30:40 So Universal for the bottoms that I serve that. In fact, when I shared this poem with each of them, they thought it was written specifically to each of their pain, which it was not it was written more generally right,. But I just want to kind of let folks know that and let them know that it will be gendered because this is very specific to my direct service experience. So a poem to your pain. Dear Daddy,

31:06 Are you just spitting game? Or do you really believe what you saying that she could have? She should have just walked away. But let's spit some truth, Daddy. You always knew she'd stay. You knew, she couldn't just walk away cuz you taught her to be loyal. So she took your cases and she did the time for your crime. So her felonies remain on everyone's mind. So when she tries to leave, they never see her for all, she could be. So, you know, you're her everything and so does she

31:41 Flashes of Darkness hunt her sleep, but she knows better than to wish for a safe place. To weep. Hope is too dangerous. So the nightmares find her. As her body grows wheat made her repeat the Mantra till she believed, it carved it in her skin so she could see it and visible stars visible. Mark, filling her head with your dreams of big things that you'll build on the backs of girls and slaved of boys and Graves, but hey, I know she's got to do what they got to do. Right who? I mean A Pimp's got to eat to and closed mouth. Don't get fed. So you let him give you head there. He's bred them for this. Born to Live bred to die. They let Daddy sing them. Another lullaby numb, the pain.

32:31 Your mama taught you that song 2.

32:36 What else did she teach you? Boo?

32:39 She talked to you every time she tried and failed that she should have, but never coulda walked away.

32:52 So I think that's, like I said, I hope the trigger warning was okay for folks cuz it is pretty, pretty intense. But that is is so real when we think about how Howard Pimm's made raid and you think you go back to this conversation, right? That you were talking about, Eric, not just the abuse. But the lack of Economic Opportunity, people are going to survive if you don't want them to do it and exploited, and black market ways. Then you better find safe and healthy and meaningful waiting for them to do it. Otherwise, we know very well and good, but there are lots of places. Lots of space has lots of neighborhood. Lots of communities that have been intentionally left out of the economy. Intentionally left out of the good school system, right intentionally left out of the spaces and places, but it's exactly what they would need to invest in themselves and transform these Cycles. Right? And and I think it goes back to this concept.

33:52 You really believe what he say, you know, what part of them does.

33:56 And part of him doesn't. And if you didn't believe at least part of it, he couldn't do what he does. I mean, talk about dehumanization. What happens in the game? What happens in the life is literally the commodification of human beings, right? It is in, that's the truth. It's the complete dehumanization and commodification of human beings. You can't do that as a sane human being day in and day out, you have to bleach the mantras that you're saying, you know, you have to believe the Mantra that you have them repeating back, right. And even if it's just, because you've said it for so long.

34:33 Regardless, it's true now, right? And so and if and if the people you're exploiting and abusing feel like it's true that it's really true. Right? We've all got into the mattress. And then, if we, as a society turn, our backs on these folks, look down on these folks, be ill and poorly of these folks and just our general culture, right? Think about how we talked about those who engage in commercial says there's no astrix by that. That says it, unless of course you were trafficked in which case, we care about you, right? So everybody commercial text hears that we see him in our right ears that we don't think their whole people, right? And so why would they believe any different, right? We're playing into that same narrative. So before we run out of time today, I want to make sure that you get to spend some time talking about fostering joy and building those long-term, meaningful relationship. I think this

35:33 And I both is really the future of the movement, right? This this community building these real investment. This transformative work, Auntie oppression work, right? Really addressing systemic marginalization, but I think at this micro and mezzo level you and I both find a lot of joy and talking about building meaningful relationships. I mean,

35:57 I think I'll start on a micro-level. You know, I think this is more about you helping empowering survivors.

36:07 When they do seek out services and stuff like that people in our society because that's the way we've been conditioned. We like the Box things up and just assume it works for one thing. So it's cookie cutters left that out. When we want to try to empower Survivor. It's more about building a long, long term investments in that person, and knowing that the making the first letter of their treatment plans, to be tailored for them. Not just for generally everybody to that. That's kind of a, I'm starting to see, you know, in the movement in doing the work with you, and hopefully, in the future that people realize that it's not going to be an overnight thing, especially if we're going to try to break the cycle of abuse or traffickers. And victims of you, people that have been affected by human trafficking. And again, you know,

37:09 I really, really truly believe. Once we have that General understanding, we could start moving on to the better part of the picture, but they media ever intervention. I see that we need for long-term sustainability for the future, start investing in it.

37:25 Stop wasting money on stuff. That is obviously not work it. And I'm not saying you have to defund the police to be more resourceful tactic with what we have going on the state level Boo or receive federally start implementing nursing interventions now because

37:44 You know about that.

37:46 A good start to break in fostering joy for myself, you know, that that was really a very hard thing in the beginning. Especially not transitioning out of the out of the game for the culture of human trafficking. Artistry culture altogether was that

38:17 I was conditioned to believe these things that I were doing. That was doing the most harm. The people was considered choice to me. Cuz in my sick mind, I thought it was.

38:29 Come to find out. And I know the biggest turning point for that. Me read me my life as well. My mom passed away. My mom was my trip. So what I started to see Foster enjoy was properly educated people. Knowing the true effects on a male's perspective of how males in particular affected by human trafficking and why they're not talking and stuff like that. That helps me Foster. Joy. You no kind of giving back to drivers that are transitioning out of the life, you know, give them something I never have liked. So I don't like saying men's work and there was a statement work out but being there for that person. Like I never had when I was trying to change my life, to try to be like an example, just by trying to build somewhat of a personal relationship. Just need to know that.

39:22 Had to take your, my passion, I had to do a b and c, you know, with Maslow hierarchy. Need, get that mad. And then go on to feel like making a career for myself. And you know, when I was transferring out the light.

39:36 People talk to me all the time. So that's kind of how I said, wait until she gives me pleasure.

39:43 You know, and and hope for

39:48 Everything Is Awesome.

39:51 There's a lot of wins in this work and it's really kind of hard to Foster Joy a lot. But we do get those winds but it really Fosters Joy because it means our work is coming this way. Hopefully, we can get that part. We can start reading the bible ship, that that is a big way. I've offered to let you know, a lot of people don't know, it within our own culture after he dies. It's the life. We kind of look out for our own just like the same way the lgbtq. I had to look out for the wrong. And so when they have an issue that will be covered by the system, we hit up each other and we try to help and power that person for me. That's truly the best way to Foster Joy has to realize it

40:45 A person doesn't have to go through. What is that by being a social worker? But I'm not saying I'm a leader because I am in perfect. But I think that's what makes me a little stronger. Is that all met when I'm wrong? I meant my fault that I'm open to receive information. You know, I'm 45 years old, you think a dynamic, like this one piece possible, but now, I look at you as like, more than the only way, I'd be able to find other ways of navigating thing. Like a big is like a big puzzle. You know what she taught me from day one, but not only that, but just having that Joy of knowing I'm actually changing a community that suffering and that, hopefully, that could start a template, you know.

41:40 That's how I thought I'd love to hear it. I know where we're really going to have time. So I'll just kind of finish up with Shane. It makes me really happy to hear you talking about fostering joy in your life and living a joy-filled life. And I think that any Survivor that listens to this service provider that listens to, this will also be excited to hear that. And I think the most important thing that I would want anybody to know, is that survivors or of human trafficking are incredible, human. They're resilient are resourceful. They are creative. They are dynamic. They are extremely adaptive, but one of the things they have never been allowed to do, is Foster joy and write their own story. And so when they exit and we get the opportunity to ride and somebody's bus that they're driving, and we get to be a part of rewriting, the

42:40 Gardevoir, writing a new chapter of the story is really special and we don't have to be invited into after any, but we are, and it's really special. So I'm for anybody. Who is this any day? I hope that, you know, that Eric and I are in your corner. We hope that you're fostering joy, and that you're celebrating your resiliency and know that we're proud of your love, no matter what. And even though you may not know me and stuff like that. I just want to let you know, you're not alone, change is never easy, but I'm telling you, if you stick to it, you can posture that inner joy and find a true passion and make it a transferable from the culture into a thriving stainable within the normal and knowing that and I would like to see this every time I close anything to leave survivors no matter what know how twisted the story is.

43:40 Hollywood. It may stay in. It is true. Thank you.