Esther [No Name Given] and Andrea [No Name Given]

[00:05] ANDREA TOCK: My name is Andrea Tock. I'm 33 years old. Today is April 8, 2024, and we're here at Columbia University. I'm joined by Esther Kimani, who is my colleague from the human rights Advocates program.

[00:20] ESTHER KIMANI: My name is Esther Kimani. I am 39 years old. Today is 8th April, 2024. We are here at Columbia University. I'm joined by Andrea Tock who is with me at the human rights Advocates program. And I'm so glad to be here with you, Andrea. I hope you have a wonderful morning so far. And maybe to just ask, you know, us thinking about this conversation would be really great to know what has been your happiest moments so far in your life.

[00:52] ANDREA TOCK: Oh, in my life?

[00:53] ESTHER KIMANI: Yes.

[00:56] ANDREA TOCK: I don't know. I think I've had. Oh, that's a tricky one. I mean, I think I've had, like, different happy moments in my life. When I was a kid, I think maybe, like, simple things were, like, really happy. I remember, like, the first time getting a bike, for example, or, like, I remember when I learned how to swim. That was, like, really nice to be able to, like, do that and be on my own and being, like, like, I don't know, like, feeling free of being in the water. Like, I remember those moments as really happy and I think older, like, when I, when I grew up, like, when I was, like, in my early twenties all the way until now. So maybe like, the last 1314 years, I think it's been the experience and the opportunities that I've had to travel to different places. So when I was a little girl, I always, like, imagined myself traveling and, like, seeing the world. And I'm very grateful that I've had the opportunity to do so, mostly due to, like, either the opportunity of having gotten scholarships or sometimes due to work and sometimes also as a tourist, but maybe not that often. But either way, I think, like, every time that I go to a new place, especially if it's, like, very far away, I'm really excited. I always try to. To Google before that, like, what are the things that I want to, like the souvenirs that I want to take home or what is the food that I should try? So I always try to make the most of it of, like, every trip that I have. And that also makes me, like, really, really happy and also, I don't know. And then telling my parents about it and telling my partner as well. Sometimes it's a bit sad because I. It's happy, but it sometimes is a bit sad when I'm doing all those traveling by myself and sometimes I've learned to, like, going to new places by myself and, like, exploring them, but also, like, sometimes I wish there was someone else there to sort of, like, share the experience. So that's a little bit sad sometimes.

[03:12] ESTHER KIMANI: But actually, you've even preempted, I wanted to say maybe just one saddest moment, you know, because you've shared all your amazing, happiest moments, and maybe if you can share one sad moment that you've.

[03:23] ANDREA TOCK: Also had one sad moment. Yeah.

[03:25] ESTHER KIMANI: Just one sad momentous.

[03:27] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah. I don't know. I remember. I remember this one time that I thought that I was very, very confident person. Like, the first time that I got to come to the US as an international student, I was 21, so that was 2011. And I remember that I was doing fine. Like, the first couple of weeks that I had been here, I was, like, getting to know people and, like, being on my own for the first time. And then I remember going to this museum this one Sunday afternoon and seeing all the families and seeing all the kids and suddenly feeling really alone. And I remember that I went back to my dorm and started crying. And I called my dad, and I didn't want him to tell to my mom that I was feeling really sad, but I just had this sudden sadness of, like, something bad is gonna happen. And thankfully, it's been, like, over 1213 years now. And, like, my parents are still alive and they're. And they're healthy, but I remember sort of, like, this anxiety that I had never had before. And I think that anxiety of, like, just being scared about the future, I think that that was, like, the first time that I felt it. And now I felt it, like, many different times throughout my life. But that first time, like, I really remember it.

[04:51] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah. Thank you for sharing.

[04:54] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah. What about you?

[04:56] ESTHER KIMANI: I think, for me, really, most of my happiest moments have been when, you know, from childhood, I remember. I think, for me, I just mundane things as things as, you know, eating chapati. Chapati is our favorite food that we eat in Kenya. And, you know, that day when my mom cooks chapati, because then the stew will be with meat and vegetables, you know, I was a happy child, and, you know, those moments were really, really happy. And I remember, you know, growing up, you know, I've had different happy moments in my life. So, you know, at home with my mom and coming from, you know, my single family household and just being able to do things together with my mom and, you know, every Christmas getting new dress, that even it's been still a tradition now you know, getting new clothes every Christmas, going to church every Christmas, and, you know, just those small things that I think, you know, as I grew up, you know, different things made me happy as well. I think for me, going to university for the first time, I was so happy being able to save enough to pay for my own university. It was the happiest moments. Like, the happiest four years I had in school. And yes, even me traveling the world, I never knew that I would go to these amazing many countries. And I've always liked to travel the world to see, to immerse myself in different cultures, to walk around. And those have been really happy moments. And at times, I feel like sharing them is also just removing that sanctity and sacredness of it, because I really enjoy. I mask myself. I walk alone in the streets. I'm very courageous because I really want to really enjoy the place. And, you know, maybe the last thing I would say my happiest moment was also, you know, having my child in 2016. It was the best pregnancy that I've ever had. Like, I didn't have anything. I did yoga the whole time. I ate well, I did everything right, per the book. So I think those are some of the happier moments that I've had, really, in my life, you know, in different stages in my life.

[07:22] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah, I can imagine. So let me ask you, now that we're talking about, like, all these travelings, what do you think when you were a kid that you were going to be when you grew up?

[07:34] ESTHER KIMANI: Wow. So I think for me, two things. I wanted to be a nurse. Really, I wanted to be a nurse so much. And I think it was because then I would see, you know, nursing, because then when. When I grew up, the only white collar jobs that women would do would either be nurse nurses, teachers, you know, and never doctor or engineer, nothing. So for me, growing up, I really wanted to be a nurse and a nurse or a dancer. But then this dancing, and I see this with my daughter saying she wants to be a nurse, I'm like, hey, where did that come from? But I don't want to dim that light because my mom was like, you be a dancer. How will you put food on the table when you are a dancer? So I think those are the two things I really wanted to be when I grew up, to be a nurse working in a hospital. And I can see even now that I'm grown up, even though I'm not a nurse, you know, I mean, helping. You know, I studied psychology, which is part of helping profession, but I really? You know, I really wanted to be in the hospital. So I've actually. Actually worked in a hospital as well. I've worked in a hospital, you know, for three years. So I think because of the fact that I really wanted to be a nurse, I found other ways to be in hospital so that then I can help. So I think. Yeah, and, of course, I didn't turn out to be, you know, nurse, but I think growing up, that's what I really wanted to be. What about you?

[09:13] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah, I was gonna ask a follow up question.

[09:14] ESTHER KIMANI: Okay, please go ahead.

[09:18] ANDREA TOCK: Because I was thinking that, I mean, I know both of us are, like, feminists, and we've been not only, like, reading a lot of things around it, but also, like, having, like, very interesting conversations with people from different places and how they see that. So, like, I was thinking about you becoming. Wanting to become a nurse and also how, like, women have historically have those, like, care jobs.

[09:41] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[09:41] ANDREA TOCK: In, like, the care economy. So, like, how do you think. How do you think about that now? Looking back?

[09:49] ESTHER KIMANI: I think for me, looking at it now, really, I just challenge how, you know, socialization continues to socialize women into care, job helping profession. But then we are seeing. The good thing is that, you know, now in this 21st century, we are seeing that changes. We are seeing more engineers. We are seeing more women doctors. And because of the narrative, that has shifted, because as we were growing out, as I was growing up, the conversation wasn't around. You can become anything more than an ass. You either need to be in a helping profession, and if that's what you want, you. You have to make sure that you get there by whatever means necessary. And, you know, and, you know, it was sad that you're not. Either you did not get the marks to go to nursing school, or you're not chosen to go. And it was such a sad, momentous for many girls. And where. From where I'm coming from, but looking at it right now, they all are doing amazing work. They're into different profession. And I'm just glad that now we are part of. Because we are human rights advocates. We are part of the change. We are part of the changing the narrative around what girls can be. And, you know, they can be however they want to be.

[11:08] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah, I think that's important, but also, I think it's important. Maybe this is, like, one of the pitfalls, maybe. Or, like, certain type of feminism, like, not really valuing the care work, because also, like, how we see. Yeah, I mean, maybe girls can be, like, more things, but also that doesn't mean that being a nurse or it's a bad thing or, like, it should be paid less than being a doctor or those type of things.

[11:34] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah, and I agree with you. And it's. It's the. They're changing the narrative of girls wanting to be whoever they want, so. Meaning if a girl says, oh, I want to be a nurse, perfect. You want to be a stay at home mom. Of course. You want to be a domestic worker, provided it's something that you have chose, that you think that you will thrive in it, and then you actually also get compensated for the. Because that's the other thing, right? Yeah, that's the other thing. You're doing the same job, you know, you as a woman are getting less. The other one, you know, as a man is getting more. So I think, yeah. So maybe on matters of love, I think during this time. During this time, we have really, you know, while we are here together, we've really had different conversations about love.

[12:26] ANDREA TOCK: Right.

[12:28] ESTHER KIMANI: So maybe to just ask you, you know, when did you really first fall in love? That. In your recollection, do you remember falling in love and how did that feel?

[12:38] ANDREA TOCK: Like, yeah, so, like, as you know, I. I've been with my partner for over a decade and, like, we first, like, were friends. We actually met through Facebook. And, like, it was funny because, like, over ten years ago, that was kind of like something that you didn't want to say. It sounded, like, weird. Even though now most people, or like, a lot of people meet through the Internet, like, maybe like, over ten years ago, it wasn't that common. So, yeah, we started, like, chatting a lot. Like, I don't know if you remember, but there used to be, like, the hotmail, like, messenger because, like, the smartphones weren't thing yet. So, like, I remember, like, getting home from university and, like, opening my computer and then, like, connecting to messenger. Sounds like ancient history, but yeah, we started talking a lot like that and we were, like, very close, like, pen pal friends for, like, many months. And then we started, like, we actually went on a date and everything. But, like, things didn't really started maybe like, two years after we started, like, talking to each other and. Yeah, and our relationship has been, like, through many different stages, but I think I first, like, realized that I was kind of, like, in love. Like, maybe six months after, like, starting, like, actually being romantic, like, physical and all that kind of stuff. Like, the first six months, I was like, oh, yeah, this is fun. Like, I feel something, you know, like, you feel excited. You really, like, you're thinking about that person, but, like, still, like, I wouldn't, like, sacrifice anything for you. Like, that time that I was telling you that I. My first time coming to the US, that we had just started, like, going on dates, but, like, I wasn't, like, gonna, like, stop that scholarship just because I was seeing a guy. Like, no way. Like, not even now either, but, like, less than. But we've also, like, build a relationship in which we both feel, like, really confident. So, for example, I had the opportunity to do my master's abroad. So we did, like, long distance for over two years. And it was hard in the sense, not necessarily, like, jealousy or anything like that, but, like, the stories that I was telling you, like, I was going to a lot of, like, different cities and, like, seeing all these amazing things. And I wish, like, for example, he was there with me, so, like, I can share it. I could take a picture with him, but the only thing that I could do was, like, letting him know, like, at the end of the day. Oh. Like, I saw this amazing, I don't know, painting or, like, stuff like that, and it's not the same.

[15:23] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[15:24] ANDREA TOCK: And now that I'm here, like, he's back home and he's taking care of our dog, and it's just, like, we both feel, like, very happy in our relationship, but also, it doesn't limit us to do other stuff.

[15:40] ESTHER KIMANI: To pursue your dreams, because that's how, at times, people explain what love is that, oh, I left what I was doing to follow, but that means it's really healthy. So nice for you to share.

[15:54] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah. And you. Have you been in love?

[15:56] ESTHER KIMANI: Yes, I think I. Yeah, I have been in love. I remember. I'll Tock about my first love and, you know, and we play. We Tock about it with him. You know, it's called Fred. And I remember that, you know, it is in how deeply and unconditionally he loved me at that young age. I was very young. I would have butterflies and, you know, he would just calm me up, you know, and I would. You know, I used to volunteer at a place called St. John ambulance, where we were being taught fast when we were being taught how to take. To give CPR when someone almost fainted. So now I was trying to still. I was using that opportunity to do first aid to get back to my dream. Remember, you wanted to be a nurse. I knew if I get into the health profession, maybe somehow, somewhere I will get there and. Yeah. And I remember really feeling the butterflies and the care that you really gave me. And he was vegan. For many years, and he would still cook me, you know, meat because, you know, Kenyans for me, I cannot. I cannot stay without meat. We joke around to say that, you know, Kenyans, we are meat possessed. We love a lot of meats. So I think for me, really, it was the, you know, it just started as we were friends for such a long time, for, like, a whole year. He was helping us learn and understand fast aid, and we were doing that together. But it was in the care and the attention that he gave me apart from other colleagues. And, you know, it just started slowly. And one day is like, can I take you out on a date? And. Yeah. And we dated for, like, three years. And I remember that they had a heartbreak. And I remember every single time, like, I've been in other many, of course, relationships, but each and every time when someone asked me that question, I remember him because of how the love was. It was very pure and conditionally understanding. We had the most amazing communication. You know, I was pretty young, but then, you know, there was that we, in a way, of. We would communicate. I was, I think, 21, and we dated until I was 25, actually. It was. That's four years, right? Wow.

[18:24] ANDREA TOCK: Yes.

[18:25] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah. And for a while, I thought, oh, this is the one I'm gonna marry. Yeah. And, you know, when you broke up, we broke up in a way that then we understood that we can't be together, so we didn't hurt each other. We still connected, and we're still friends still. Now, you're still in touch? We're still in touch, but we keep arms length. We don't want things. We are. We are. We are very good friends.

[18:55] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah.

[18:56] ESTHER KIMANI: Yes. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. I think, you know, because you're both feminists working in this feminist movement, you know, did you, when you grew up, did you ever think that you would be, you know, a feminist or doing this work and do you like your job?

[19:16] ANDREA TOCK: I mean. I mean, I don't know if I knew that I was gonna be a feminist because that wasn't a word that was around. But I did sort of, like, realize certain things since I was, like, really young. So, like, when I was a kid, after school, I used to go to my grandma's and also, like, my cousins, also, like, after school went to my grandma's. And I remember, like, for example, my grandmother trying to teach me how to do certain, like, chores in the house, but not teaching my. My male cousins, like, they were. They could, like, keep on playing, like, soccer or whatever, and I was like, this doesn't make any sense, because also, like, I was. I was doing better at school than they were. Like, I was, like, reading already and I was, like, five and they were, like, seven and couldn't read and, like, all those kind of things. And I was like, this doesn't make any sense, like, they should be doing. So, like, I, like, I started, like, feeling that and, like, I didn't. I don't know what. What it was or how could I describe it, but I sort of, like, felt that it didn't make sense.

[20:19] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[20:19] ANDREA TOCK: And also, like, my parents. My dad had been married before, and, like, and he had to, like, really fix that situation. And, like, so he wasn't living with my mom and me until, like, I was, like, five or six. And I remember, like, my grandma saying to me once, I don't. I don't know what her intentions were, but she was kind of like, oh. Like, you know, when, like, other things happen outside of marriage, that's a sin. And, like, sort of, like, implying that I was a sin. And I remember that when I was a kid, like, that didn't make sense to me. Like, I remember, like, really, like, that stupid.

[20:59] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[21:00] ANDREA TOCK: And. And I just, like, started, like, seeing those little things, and I don't know if it's, like, because it just wasn't logic.

[21:09] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[21:09] ANDREA TOCK: And I think that's how I sort of, like, never let myself down. I don't know how to explain it, but, yeah, so I think I always knew that I could do more than just being, like, in the house and, like, taking care of kids. Like, I was also seeing, like, how a lot of my cousins were having kids and they weren't necessarily having, like, a good time with that and, like, growing up with that. Like, I started, like, realizing, like, really young when I was, like, nine or ten, like, oh, I don't want to get married and I don't want to have kids. Like, I remember, like, being nine or ten and saying that to myself, and people were being, like, a little bit scared, like, oh, you're gonna be alone for your whole life. And I was like, it's not that I don't want love. It's just that I don't want to, like, be, like, in that situation.

[22:03] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[22:05] ANDREA TOCK: So, yeah, so that's being sort of, like how I grew up, just because it made sense, I guess. And then when I went to school and, like, started reading about feminism, it's kind of, like, it all made more. Thanks. You know? And now it was also challenging when I was maybe, like, 25 or something. And I was still very much into that feminist discourse of, like, you can be anything you want and you're, like, an independent woman and all of that. When I suddenly realized that you also need community.

[22:37] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[22:38] ANDREA TOCK: And when that happened, it was also, like, thinking, rethinking my feminism. Yeah, rethinking my feminism and realizing that being a feminist is not just about being an independent woman who can do anything herself, but that also, like, community. It's really important, but it doesn't necessarily have to be your blood family, your community. You can build your own community, a community that sort of, like, lifts you up and. Yeah. So that's also being part of, like, my feminist journey. Yeah. What about you? Like, how do you feel about feminism and, like, the different debates? I know you've been reading this book, hoot feminism. What do you think about it?

[23:22] ESTHER KIMANI: Oh, my God. You know, we need to do a review about hood feminism. But I really like what Mickey Kendall saying, because then the different discourse that she's bringing, and I hear her. One of the things that she mentions in her book is the fact that, you know, really work feminists, you know, allow me to use these words and, you know, white feminism and, you know, and all just the types of feminism that we learn about at any given time. Nobody thinks about livelihood as a feminist issue, like not having food on the table, being a feminist issue, not being able to grow food, being, you know, feminine. Really, most of the time, it's really left to those that are within the hood for them to figure it out. So I think for me, really reading this book has really challenged me in so many ways. And, you know, the conversation we've been talking about around intersectionality, transnationalism, and how can we make sure that, you know, we look at different issues that we are working with, whether you're not working on, let's say, not doing work on agriculture to end poverty, ending poverty is a feminist issue. And how can we ensure that then within our, you know, reproductive justice work, our climate change justice work, our, you know, violence against women work, that we are incorporating that, because then it affects women more than men. So I think for me, you know, she's really challenging. I'm really enjoying it, and I can't wait to have deeper conversation around it. But also, like, for me, my feminist journey, you know, I didn't know I was really a feminist. I think for me, it just started by seeing how inequalities actually happens even within the home that I was brought in, you know, really seeing how my mother treated my brothers more, how she loved them more. And that's how I felt. And I thought that, because then I was seeing that at home then I remember, this is a funny story. I remember my brother was going to university, and he was in Mombasa, a place called Mombasa polytechnic. And because then he was in school then I was young then my mom would tell me to always wash his clothes, right? So I would do all the house chores, and I would wash his clothes. And as a rebellion, I. One time, for three weeks, I didn't wash clothes. I didn't wash his clothes, so I will wash my mom's clothes, but then I wouldn't wash his clothes. And I remember that time my mom used to still spank us. And I think I was informed I was 16.

[26:06] ANDREA TOCK: Was it 16?

[26:07] ESTHER KIMANI: Yes. And, you know, and my brother wakes up one day, it's on Monday, he needs to go to school. Guess what? He doesn't have clothes because all his clothes are dirty. But you see, because he's been. He knows that when I'm out of school, when it's holidays, that I'm the one who's gonna wash his clothes, everything. So he doesn't care. Like, he has to always, you know, just use his clothes, knowing there's someone who's gonna wash, because, you know, the little sister is back at home. And I remember it's on Monday. He's supposed to go to school. He's looking for his clothes. He doesn't have clean clothes. And he was so mad, and he wanted to beat me that time. And I told him, you know me, I'm not your wife. I don't know how that came. I said, I'm not your wife, people. And that that was the first day in our household. Every single person started washing their clothes because of my rebellion. And it was those things, you know, I was like, I'm not washing anyone's. I'll only wash my mom's clothes. And it went like that. And also, like, to an extent, that when he would come home in the middle of the night after this drinking spree, my mom would wake me up to go. To go and open the door for him. Then I also refused. And when I refused to open the door for him, that's when my mom instituted some rules. Like, if you're going to go out on a drinking spree, don't come home in the middle of the night, come in the morning. And it's because of my rebellion. But I didn't know that was feminism. I didn't know challenging inequality just, you know, within the homes, because we. When you think about inequalities, most of the time we think about structural inequalities that we face that continue perpetuating, you know, patriarchy. But people are not thinking about what about the struggles that are happening within the home? And I think, for me, that has been my journey. I didn't know I was a feminist then. I also remember in school when one of the teachers, you know, was touching girl's breast. For a long time, nobody said anything. I used to love poetry. I used to be a good poet, but I lost it because, you know, that teacher touched my breast. And when he did that, I was wearing. I remember I was wearing this bra that I'd bought. It had Mickey Mouse and, you know, Mickey Myus is blue and, like, a red nose and, you know, in a white shirt. You can actually see it, right? And, you know, I was starting to grow up, so, like, you know, I had boobs. And when he called me, I had done so well. I remember we were being taught about rhyming words. So I had done a poem, and, you know, they were rhyming words and had passed my english test. So he wanted to call me to give me accolades. He mentioned it in the. In the class, but then he said, come. So I was helping him carry books, and I got there, and, you know, he touched. He touched me. And I went home. I went back to my dorm and I cried. But when I cried, I said, no, no, no, I need to touch the head teacher. So I went into the head teacher, and the school hated me. Like, there's a time I didn't want to go to school because then people would say, if you do anything, Esther will say it. Because then it took me talking about it going to report him, for him to be actually transferred, only to realize that he was just not touching girls. He had been sexually harassing girls.

[29:41] ANDREA TOCK: Oh, no.

[29:41] ESTHER KIMANI: Each and every time we go to, like, games and it was gone unnoticed, and it was because I said it and. Yeah, and, you know, how are a.

[29:51] ANDREA TOCK: Bunch of these things keep on happening? Because, like, just the cultural silence of.

[29:56] ESTHER KIMANI: Not, like, being able to say, you can't say anything. And I think it was also, like, a practice because previously, a few years back, most girls had been married by the teachers. They would tell us stories. Oh, that one finished from four, you know, and, you know, after two years, you know, mister so and so, you know, married her. So I think it was a culture of. There was a silence because it was a practice that was happened. Yeah. That's. Yeah. And maybe, you know, now that you're still talking about, you know, talking about, you know, what we are doing and why we are here. So if you aren't doing this work, what would you be doing?

[30:44] ANDREA TOCK: I don't know. That's a tricky question. I don't know. I think, I mean, like, sometimes I even wonder as well about, like, and I think we've had these conversations in the past about, like, human rights because, like, when you, when you are doing it as your everyday job, sometimes you also, like, besides doing your activism, you also have to deal with a lot of how the world is structured. So, like, financials, also how you sometimes need to, like, code switch if you're going to certain donors or, like, talking certain things or, like, not saying, like, you have to, like, do a lot of that emotional labor, I think. And also by the end of the day, you're, like, really tired. And then, like, on the weekends or whenever you have, you just want to rest and you don't necessarily have the energy to do other type of activism that can also be important. So, for example, something like, more local. I don't know. And sometimes I even wonder, oh, would it have been better to maybe have a regular job when I was, like, I don't know, a gardener or a dog groomer or something like that, and then, like, on my free time, like, actually doing, like, human rights activism and not necessarily having to comply to certain demands, like, the donors and all this stuff, because I didn't, I wouldn't have to, like, worry about, like, funding and, like, all of that. But I'm not, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I, if I'd be happy. I do know that there are, like, many things to human rights. You also have to do a lot of those things. And sort of, like, at times I do wonder, like, are we maybe, like, I don't know, like, being like a steam release for capitalism or something like that? I don't know. Like, sometimes when you get, like, these really, like, cynic thoughts, like, I like, sometimes I think about it, but also at the same time, when I, I see, for example, that my organization is providing this really needed service at the local level. And that may be, like you were saying, structurally or at the national level, things don't seem to be changing. There are changing in very concrete ways for people within the communities. So that also makes it worth it. Even though the whole society, it might take longer, it is having an impact at that very specific individual level.

[33:31] ESTHER KIMANI: And that's something yeah, that's definitely something. Yeah, that's definitely something.

[33:36] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah. So I don't know if I'll be doing something else.

[33:39] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah.

[33:40] ANDREA TOCK: I don't know, maybe translating or something like that. I feel like that could be also like a job. That will be nice.

[33:48] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah, that would be really nice because also you will be practicing on a new language.

[33:52] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah.

[33:53] ESTHER KIMANI: You never know.

[33:54] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah. And you like, what is the thing that you like the most about your job?

[34:00] ESTHER KIMANI: I think for me, what I like the most about the job is the change that I see, especially individual change. Oh, my God. I feel like if. If there weren't individual changes, then I would give up very fast because, you know, policy change takes a long time, you know, structural change takes a long time, changing the whole health system so that then it's feminist gendered, you know, it puts adolescent and girls and young women, the ones I work with first, that's challenging, understanding that we also live in a patriarchal society and those people in power are more men. And, you know, you have to Tock to them in this way and not in this. So for me, because, yes, the changes are happening at that level, definitely. But the pace is slow.

[34:54] ANDREA TOCK: Yes.

[34:54] ESTHER KIMANI: But the fact that, you know, I meet a young girl who is able to advocate for herself, she has a voice now. She challenges those struggles within the homes, and she comes and tells us, you know what? This is how I was able to change my mom's thoughts about me not being in school. Now I'll go to school and I finish. Or, you know, that's how now me and my brothers share chores at home or, you know, the young women that have initiatives that are doing menstruation justice all the time, which is not bad thing. Like, that's amazing. But now they're like, oh, we're actually incorporating abortion rights because girls come to us and ask us about services. But now because of your training, we are able to. To know where to refer them. So I think for me, that's what makes my job very, like, enjoyable and makes me wake, I mean, the joys of this job.

[35:54] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah, that's amazing, Esther. I think I feel the same as you do. So because we're starting to wrap up like I wanted to ask. Let's look at the future. Do you think we'll ever lose touch with each other?

[36:14] ESTHER KIMANI: And I don't think so because we have a plan. You're hosting me already. I think also the other thing about friendship that we've never, we barely Tock about is around the intentionality that comes with it. That's true. Yes. Because then people always like, oh, we've connected, but people forget that there's the intentionality in it, you know, being able to make time to check on. Up on each other, and. And I feel we have that. I feel like we'll not lose it, and we already have plans, so we definitely need to.

[36:49] ANDREA TOCK: I'm also excited about that. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, like, with friends, you also need to, like, work on your relationship. It's not like it's just gonna happen. So, like, you need to be, like, intentional, but, yeah, I'm happy. We also have, like, a common struggle and a common goal. We want. We want feminists. Feminism to triumph.

[37:14] ESTHER KIMANI: Yes. And, you know, and we love our jobs, and definitely we were both from the global south. We. Our communities experience almost close to similar challenges and struggles, so at least we connect in that level. So hopefully, definitely we'll be intentional, right?

[37:31] ANDREA TOCK: Yes, we'll be intentional.

[37:34] ESTHER KIMANI: We'll be intentional about it. Yeah. And, you know, I can't wait to host you in Kenya.

[37:38] ANDREA TOCK: And, yeah, I'm really. I'm really excited. Like, I told you, like, I want to go to Nairobi and, like, really see the. The park that is right in the middle of the city.

[37:48] ESTHER KIMANI: Actually. It's true. It's right in the middle of the city like that. Yeah.

[37:52] ANDREA TOCK: Yeah. So I'm excited, and I think we'll probably see each other after New York. Somewhere. Somewhere else.

[37:59] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I can't wait to come to your country as well, to experience all the amazing food and all the love Spanish has to offer, because I believe that it. The language, the lava.

[38:12] ANDREA TOCK: I'll host you in my house, and I'll make a vegetarian food for you, and you're gonna be like, I can't believe this is. This tastes nice.

[38:20] ESTHER KIMANI: Definitely. I'm sure I will enjoy it. Definitely. Okay.

[38:24] ANDREA TOCK: It was awesome having this conversation with you.

[38:27] ESTHER KIMANI: It's really nice having this conversation with you. I feel like we've connected more and, you know. Yeah. And hoping to continue this friendship with intentionality.

[38:35] ANDREA TOCK: Yes, of course.

[38:36] ESTHER KIMANI: Yeah. Great. Thank you, guys.

[38:40] ANDREA TOCK: We're just going to do 10 seconds of silence, and then I'll stop the recording.