Faith Morris and Herbert Hillard

00:02 My name is Faith Morris. Today's date is March 5th 2020. And we're at the national Civil Rights Museum. My interview partner is Herbert Hilliard who we call her and relationship is he is our esteemed board chair, but and all in all great guy who I am excited to be talking to you today. My name is Herbert Hilliard. I am 72 years old. Today's date is March 5th 2020. We're at the national Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tennessee. My name of my interview Partners Faith Morris. Faith is the chief marketing officer at the national Civil Rights Museum where I'm bored you

00:48 Do herb it's good to spend a few minutes with you to to know who her Hilliard is. Are you a native? Yes or no? I'm actually grew up on Shelby County not in the city of Memphis group of an area called Woodstock, which is north of Memphis. It's about halfway between Memphis and a city called Millington, Tennessee to school called what stocks who which is out there. I would start school in I do.

01:21 What was that growing up? Like? No, actually, where were you born though? I was born actually in a little place called Lucy, Tennessee. Okay, which is not far from Woodstock. Maybe about 10 to 15 Mile and I was actually born at home. Yeah, the doctor actually came and delivered me and my parents into giving him yet, but I was bored at home bored and Lucy moved over in the Woodstock area when I was six so, you know the Macklemore

01:54 So what was growing up like grown-up was interesting and what I mean by interesting you that we were very very poor, but we were a very tight-knit family and I always said your family is the key to being successful and at a very early age neither one of my parents finish high school, but they encouraged all their kids to finish high school and go to college and have always told my kids and she know being poor is no excuse for not achieving it should be an incentive for achieving Unfortunately. They didn't grew up poor, but but

02:44 So did you go to Woodstock Woodstock High School from the first grade through the 12th grade elementary junior high and high school. So I went from from actually from the from the 2nd through the 12th. I went to law school call Lucy when first grade which was a 2 room Schoolhouse. I've got a brother who is 6 years old and I have a sister who's four years older than I am and we all were in the same room with the same teacher and I was in the first grade she was in the fourth grade and he was in the sixth grade. And so we're the same teacher to teacher and so but then I went over to Woodstock in the second grave and finish there in the truck race.

03:40 You know, I'm Native American was born here. I left for a few years 25 years and was in Chicago and then you know back for the museum, but I went to Hamilton for 12 years from the 1st through the 12th grade, but you dr. Harry cash was he was he was my my brother's principal and his Godfather and close to my parents right down the street from my house, but he was gone by the time I got there actually coached my dad in baseball.

04:16 I need to call him something other than doctor cash because you remind me that he was in sports, but that's why my brother was so involved with him because he was an athlete and they he just loved him something interesting.

04:31 Tell me about your family by siblings and my parents are but my current family that's all family cousin sister and my mother and dad must have something about Family Planning older brothers. 2 years old my sister. She's 4 years old and I am and then I'm 4 years old in my younger brother and we know 6 hours and fortunately unfortunately, but my older brother 78 and we're all all four siblings are still alive. I think I'll still here. I think he lives in Loganville, Georgia and my sister lives in Detroit.

05:22 She was the only girl.

05:24 And three boys and a girl and so but we are very close and still very close and I can send my parents high school, but they were big proponent of education and my mother I always tell people she know she had a saying if we came home and something went right and we came came and giving her excuses and they're saying what signs keeps his only satisfy the people that make him I don't want to hear.

05:50 Okay talk is great. But executions better and her words words dinosaurs executed. She talk is great. But just getting it done and don't come back saying you why you can't get something done.

06:08 And what about so you're married with Children marriage? Same woman? Who's married? Who's the lawyer? She's married to a lawyer. They actually met the law school. She's a graduate up Spelman undergraduate and Mississippi College of Law. My son Herbert, who is the youngest he is a graduate Morehouse. He's a work easy Logistics manager with the door sale and it still isn't Atlanta got three grandchildren two boys and a girl ten 6 and 4 about his grandbaby. It's a great night. I try to spend as much time with him as possible and I went to the University of Memphis athletic banquet.

07:08 Call banquet the other night together and try to make sure they get exposed to things. I didn't get exposed to when I was growing up. I expose my kids to and you know, the old saying kids great-grandkids a better is true.

07:24 I agree. I agree. My daughter gets upset. Jamie gets upset all the time. She said you do stuff with them. You never did with me. I think her memory is a little faulty, but there is absolutely a difference in what you do with your grandkids and what you do with your kids just because your rearing your children and you are embracing your grandbaby and make sure they don't miss anything either and you can send them back home undergraduate young man in Atlanta at Spelman. It was who could I dressage and I will tell you what I told him you ran a month and I'd call it what you spent all that money on clothes. He said I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to do at making good grades or not.

08:21 But one thing about daughters and granddaughters, they learned very early how to manipulate dad and Granddad and the four-year-old four-year-old. She was 6 months when she learned how to manipulate me to tell the story The Last Summer that 10 year old who's the oldest grandchild he got his cell phone and so she was three and a half then and so she was she was acting up here visiting for the summer and she's will pop out. When am I going to get myself off? That's where you'll get yours when you're 10 like your brother not your cousin and she said, okay, then she went and came back about ten minutes later. She said no papa girls mature faster and your answer was yes, she's right. She's right absolutely and how it started and

09:21 How it evolved into your your journey the greatest impression on you. Well, I do my parents and the teachers I had in school in particular the principal and school and high school is RG Rodney and I was also a doctor Fred Johnson who was a teacher mine and they made you believe that you could do anything you want to do and my parents made us believe that and growing up poor. I didn't want to be for the rest of my life and so is so when I was about 10, I start laying out my plans or how I would ride it around and yourself with money even then my wife so everything I did work was working to it being successful and also,

10:18 Being able to give back to the community also being on the Forefront and trying to be out front and just when I think a big part of what has made my life successful in addition to education and and hard work is I made the decision when I finish High School segregated and so I made them so I turn down some basketball scholarships to discuss and decide to walk on at the University of Memphis. And so I walked on and I became the first African-American athlete at the University of Memphis. It was in Memphis State and that has been a key reason that in the business world. I think a lot of doors open up because that's how I ended up working at First Tennessee Bank because Ron Terry

11:18 Who was it first into was the University of Memphis graduate and he hired me and was a mentor.

11:29 You could tell if if you could see her you knew that he was close to somewhere on a basketball court. Do you always assume folks that you're at your height play basketball and we do this thing at the Museum where we bring in some of the the icons and Sports in and Herb knows them all home as a part of a partnership with the Grizzlies. He he knows them all. So he's our go-to when we want to talk about some some athletes. So we ought to get to know better young people to teach teamwork is 10 if you're fortunate enough to play professional sports and make a lot of money. That's great, but you can do other things and make a lot of money other than being a professional athlete, but I told my kids and I told young people seeing the only true measure of success is what you've done to help someone else not what you've done for yourself.

12:25 I had a question actually about your being the first African-American athlete University of Memphis. What was that experience like for you that was interesting that I can remember my freshman year. We actually went over in Arkansas and play the team and on the way back We're stopped at this restaurant to eat and the people said, well, he can't eat here and my teammates so if he can't get here we going to leave here either so we can talk we came back to Memphis hungry nervous. Are you also remember being in playing in Starkville, Mississippi, Mississippi State and run down the floor and stuff. What's a 24? How about a shoe shine? So yeah, but I can truthfully say that was

13:12 Outside of the University my teammates in the University Embrace be without any issues.

13:20 Interesting interesting. Do you use that experience as any reference to what you did you leaving the rest of your life? Oh, yes go see him and a big part of my life and particularly in the banking business.

13:39 What time does I was the only African-American his room and I told my son if you know what I started and I was involved in the American Bankers Association, which was Association of Bankers from across the country and its I got involved in 1979 and we've been meetings. I'd be the only African-American room. I retired in 2012. I was still the only African-American add but I tell my kids so, you know, you got you've got to excel regardless you had to bring you tonight and when you walk away and so, you know, I never asked people like me. All I ask him to do is respect me.

14:21 Okay, that's good. That's good. I'm going to use that somewhere out attributed to you. So I'm not sure I was but that's good. So what are you most passionate about?

14:41 Probably I like doing a most passionate about is making sure that we make the world a better place for the next Generations to come and right now I don't feel very good about that. I think that we have got lost as a a a country and a civilization and if you go back and look at history civilization that lost that lose their morals cease to exist you can go back and look at Rome and they approve a whole lot of other different places all the sudden they no longer exist in the wrong still in the city, but the Roman Empire didn't sit right and so I think we've lost a lot of my morals. We've lost the way we've lost our been just nice to people you're part of my career. I spent as a lobbyist in Washington.

15:37 And when I first started going up to about thirty years ago, you know, the Republicans and Democrats would they debate on the floor and argue with each other and they go out and have dinner and drinks and nothing ever has the best of friends today. They don't even speak to each other when they have each other and what kind of example is that for our next Generation? That's what that's what I think and we need to be doing more and more things to make sure that there's a future for that next Generation. The only thing I'm passionate about is the museum and that we continue to till the history in the struggle of civil rights, you know, think about it probably and I can guarantee this is a statistic I'd say probably 60% of the particular African Americans in this country. We're not born doing the Jim Crow civil right there. So they've never experienced it. They never experienced the fact that if you went to a restaurant

16:37 Didn't go in there and then when you finally could get served you had to go in the back and couldn't go in front door and I can remember the first McDonald's that opened here. It was in Fraser. They would serve you but you had to go to a different window. So, you know, so we need to make sure that that we continue to tell the story and I think that's one of the great things the museum does and fact, I think every young person the master race Creed color should spend time going through the museum cuz even if you were a majority you need to understand what other people have gone through it and experienced, you know, and you know in the US everything's usually about race and I tell people that you know, you have discrimination and racism throughout the world.

17:27 Yeah, and example I use a how do you tell the difference between a Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant? They look the same. How do you tell the difference? If you go to the Middle East Palestinian and Israeli they all look the same?

17:46 But they hate me they have polar opposite and they've been since the beginning of time of them and almost the same thing. And so what we have to do and I think that's one of the things that the museum do such a great job is telling the story also bringing people in from around the country and around the world to recognize those people who fight Injustice and and we have to continue to do that and we have to continue to raise another generation of leaders and I mean leader. Necessarily in the African American Community, but in the in the total Community leaders who are going to embrace diversity, we're going to embrace occlusion instead of people who are going to encourage separatism. And so that's one thing I'm passionate about is that we've got to make sure that we leave this world my generation leave this world a better.

18:46 We found it.

18:48 And right now you didn't say it isn't even though I'm not so sure it's not worse today than it was done. Jim Crow. The opinions are the suspect that's for sure, you know and and how people act out how they feel there's there's no restrictions. Now, they've been giving the an open door to do and say just about anything but there's no compassion for your fellow man scream how anyone who can call themselves a Christian or any religion. I could take babies out of the arms of mothers and separate them.

19:23 Babies who can't even talk can't walk, you know, that's not very compassionate. And so I think there's a lot of work that we've got to do with this country that I thought we'd already done.

19:40 But it's all over again. Then I guess everything is a cycle. It just come is like a wheel there. They always come back around that respect for Humanity is no doubt about it. And and when you see the images and the rhetoric around how people feel and how hate has just really penetrated so much of our surroundings our environment our language iris images and I always think about our babies. Here's what you do what we get when we talk to our young folks. They see, you know, where we we got this cuz clearly, you know adults are alive and they're they're tired of of just seeing things not happening the way they want to have a week. We have those conversations with young people to come here all the time, meaning of them searching for answers. Just trying to understand why in the world would going through what we're going through and we tell him that there is a parallel to every episode in the exhibits in the store.

20:40 Tell him that we have at the Museum every episode there is something going on right now that matches what was going on in and that's that's a shame of it. All right. I'm not sure we value education as much particularly in the African American communities we did back when I was going on getting an education, you know, I look around and if a policeman shoots young African-American man, all the ministers and everybody come comes out of the streets in droves first get him out of jail or or or lift them or yes. That's right around the family and talk about black lives matter and all that which is great. But I told a group of young men. That was the day Michael Brown was killed in Missouri. That was probably 15 young black men killed by other black man in Memphis.

21:39 And no one said a word.

21:41 There was no ministers Ida Street protesting. That was no black lives matters protest the black lives of the ones killed by other African Americans just as important as the ones killed by the police and so 10 years ago at one time 97% of inmates in the Criminal Justice Center in Memphis where High School Dropout so there's a direct correlation between education and whether you going to end up in jail, and I know particularly Pitt Hyde who's also on outboard his putting his major focus on education at about that and and and he's right, you know, if you look back your education is the difference between me being very pool growing up and being upper middle class.

22:41 Did I say not for now. So I applaud the work he's doing on education and you know, we still don't have the the Pre-K education we need to have cuz you're the first three or four years of a child's life is that they're open book The Minds ready to absorb and we got kids to a getting to the second third fourth fifth race. Can't read.

23:07 So now we know and this is this is something I really get concerned about what parents don't know how important it is for them to have their children go to school everyday. They think because their babies if they don't have to be there and they start getting marks off of not being in school when they get into school but had no idea when I was raising my child that if they haven't gotten the Fundamentals by the third grade the chances of them ever catching up is very remote extra help and you know, a lot of folks on getting extra help. So it's it's it's an interesting thing but you mentioned and then we'll talk more about your involvement with the national Civil Rights Museum or you talked about being a lobbyist. I mean, there's so many layers to you and what we talked there's another thing that comes out and comes out. I knew about you being a lobbyist, but you were a lobbyist for what

24:07 So the last 10-12 years out the chief risk officer in a disability lobbyist and lobbying.

24:23 Akita Lottery this really understanding people and it teaches you how to read people and I tell if you can understand people and did learn how to deal with people you got a great chance of being successful all almost of your great salespeople are able to read and understand what they customers want and I've always said, you know that one thing thing by lobbyists that would tell people what they want to hear and everybody wants to hear what they want to hear and you tell him nice things about themselves. And and if you look at some of the current situations the way to deal with our current president is a flattering

25:00 Have you flattering Miguel Molina York?

25:05 That's true. If you look at the the the man is and North Korea, he's learned how to do that.

25:14 I think so many of them have figured it out. It's only a child could could figure it out. It's pretty simple at this point it absolutely is.

25:24 For in terms of

25:26 The divide in this country and you mention if you feel like it feels almost worse in some ways than Jim Crow all I can you talk more about that and how you've seen this divide manifest specifically here in in Memphis in Tennessee and maybe any specific examples and the young most of our crimes in this city of been committed by Young African-Americans between the ages of 14 and 18th.

26:00 And they're not fit in and they're not finishing high school. So what there's no future for them things and that back to my point of 97% of the ones in the Criminal Justice Center inmate a high-school Dropout to once you get into that when I was growing up in the Jim Crow era, the percentage of African Americans in prison was probably less than 5%

26:24 Today is probably 90% And so that was hope back then for a lot of young people taking Afrin. There's very little hope that mean yeah, it's like I was telling someone the other day. Mr. Bloomberg pologize in for stop-and-frisk. I would apologize.. I said heck we had so many so many gun crimes. Yeah. We stepped on some toes. We made some mistakes. Hey, look how many young people are being killed in Memphis right now innocent people young kid. We had one week. We had three young people under 5 random random shootings.

27:08 Help yourself. We can keep those young lady 14. She was washing dishes in her kitchen stray bullet came in and killed her.

27:20 In and out and in and you look at it particularly in that that's why I think the museum is so important. We have got to educate that. You know, there is hope if you want to have her but if you can't continue down this path and I know Terry and I've talked about and right before she got hurt is about going down talking to the juvenile court every young person that's brought in you in a court would give them a free tour of the museum. I don't know if we say one

27:54 It was worth.

27:56 But that's what I mean by I think it's actually worse. I mean that was probably more discrimination then but there was hope we talk about Hope and and parents were concerned about what their children were doing. They even if they don't have an education they want to kiss to get an ass and and and and that was Paramount and you don't got a lot of parents today. You don't hear that, you know, the kids don't care the parents don't care.

28:26 And you know you can deal with a lot of things but you can't deal with ignorant. So you got to you got to do something to turn that ball around and right now I don't see it and then and we're not getting examples from leaders in our communities.

28:45 To to do that, you know, we don't have any Martin Luther King's we don't have any Ben Hooks. That's that's leading the charge.

28:54 The depth of caring actually is what's missing, you know, if you got a warm spot in your heart to do the the absolute right thing just just considering the next person and what makes life better for them that usually is not fitting into any of the equations of folks that are kind of in the

29:17 Doing the work right now. I can jump rope particularly in the black community and the majority community in your neighborhood people cared about you or your parents did but your neighbors cared about you. Can you find it? They work just folks I'm mad now and so we're doing it out of that emotions.

29:39 They were mad. They were determined to do to have a better life and do what they needed to do sacrifice their lives and their families and their homes and everything else to get it done, but it wasn't cuz they were mad which is an emotion that really doesn't take you anywhere, but somewhat negative not to somewhere. That's where other people are angry, but they're also I have no vision like we talked about both of us going up either in school or home. They made us think about the future and in and I can remember in my neighborhood. But you know, if you once you graduate from high school your parents told you you got three choices go get your job.

30:26 If you get your job and the year you get your place right number to you go to school. If you want to be the one that was then you go in the military and you got to go somewhere and you going to do something. You're not going to lie around do nothing and you're not going to hang around on the street. You're not going to but now I love these kids. They never even get to look at the the numbers. Most of the crimes are committed by kids between 14 and 18 + 18.

30:58 Let's talk a little bit about the national Civil Rights Museum cuz herb your your history is deep with the museum. I mean you have been involved when pretty much you know, most of the pivotal moments of the museum. When when did you what did you come here where anyone so probably about five six years after I came on the board. Then at the time the first Juanita was President right now. You came in and out a bunch be in the interim president.

31:58 But if you look at it over the last 15 years you have the museum has made tremendous strides in addition to the major renovation that we did which I think it was extremely important. We're financially stronger than we've ever been before. We've got a great board. We got a great staff and part of that just leaves you leave the ship goes to current management team we have today Beverly and her management team, but also I think people like Maxine Smith. Dr. Ben Hooks pit. Of course. He has been been here since day one and you know, the one great thing I like about a lot of people with his resources will give you money, but they won't give you time.

32:52 And he puts in as much and more time than he puts in more than any other board members including me tell me about the museum, but he cares about the community. He cares about education. He knows that education is the key and that's why now, is he he and Barbara are major players here locally in education, but Nashua and so we have brought some of that programming to the museum that's exactly right and equality and let me also be just totally honest, you know, the ones I'm talking about committing the crimes. They only make up by 5% the population of the other 95% of our young people are still doing the things they're supposed to do but if one kid is lost

33:45 Yeah, we still fail. And so we need to make sure that we can bring them along and I think that's where the the museum can play a major role not only in being a quote archive for civil rights history. But I'm also providing the kind of guidance and education that encourages young people to want to get an education to want to be successful and success doesn't mean that you're become very wealthy success mean that that you've done something to make your life better to make your family's life better and to make your community better.

34:25 Right, when you think about how the museum started and you look at where we are now and to do kind of a contrast because we did take a turn on me. I've been here since 2013 and there's a difference in what happened since I've been here then what was going on before I can I hear and I think the changeover and the team's there was a team that got us to this first part of our history our development, you know, creating this place that is you know, such a phenomenal institution and then there was the next phase that we needed to go in that had more to do with activism that had more to do with being a catalyst for social change that engagement. We certainly got the chronicling of the Civil Rights Movement right better than anybody and and yes, I'm biased to but I also compare it to

35:25 Add you right then but but yeah, I mean it's a it's a proud .44 Us and how well the storytelling is and I tell folks if you don't want to know the truth don't come to the National Civil Rights Museum cuz we are going to tell you the truth whether it's a hard truth or not and you know him but and also I think the great thing that the new plan that we got to put in place where we got it. We will deal with some some issues that affect today, you know, the museum Chronicles the past we need to deal with also what's what's happening now and so particular things such as education income inequality, but education is the key to solving that problem is not redistribution of wealth.

36:24 Good that have a firm belief if you would take all the money in the world and divided equally between everybody in the world. Everybody would be poor and and three years the 5% has got 90% of it today will have it back.

36:41 Interesting

36:43 Interesting to think about it like that.

36:51 Cuz if everybody how much is your pump plumber Go Chargers come work on your your plumbing if he's got to stop your bum is going to cost you a million dollars. So now you broke and he's got two.

37:09 Spoken like that lyrics breaker

37:15 So tell me what?

37:18 What it is you would love to see if you could go into the future and we could imagine, you know things being in a place that you feel would be right for us museum for the city for a Utopia that look like you're always going to have that people of different colors and different religions and it where you know, we are more concerned about the community as a whole instead of our own section. Would you rather it's my race my political party, but where everybody is on the same path through what can we do to make our country and the world a better place the best thing that could possibly happen to this world is to get visited by extraterrestrial in beans.

38:18 Bring everybody together.

38:20 Cuz all the sudden death of the outsider and we end and then they're in our world are it I will but people respect each other. They treat each other with respect. Everyone has equal opportunities. People are paid equally that's goddess of sex or whenever you are in a race, you do the same job you get paid same of money ever get to that and I'm not sure we ever will but one thing I have learned is you always set your goals high if you don't make them less bitter office in Hugo slow and making them.

39:06 If you never put it out that you certainly can attain that goal 100% down the road and you don't you make 90% that's better than having to go to 40% that you made 45% of Greg Sowell. And that's the thing that I've always done and I've taught my kids and and children I've talked to is very high goals and don't let anything stop. You got to work hard to get there and get to work some more and I disagree with my wife a lot cuz she believes that you be should be positive thinking and I tell positive thing is great. But execution is better.

39:49 Yes, yes, but teach kids how to plan and how to ask you and if you have if you make mistakes fall down get up and start all over again.

40:02 That's great. That's great. It's been a joy talking to you. I've enjoyed it to appreciate it. Thank you very much.

40:13 You spoke earlier about your grandchildren. I would tell them that, you know, first of all love yourself be very cognizant in in. Love you family, but also love your neighbor.

40:37 And when you look around and you say we have time for me to leave this world have I done anything to help anybody else other than myself and if answer is no then your failure.