Frankie Roberts and Bryan Talbott

00:03 My name is Frankie Roberts. I happen to be 56 years. Old. Today is Thursday, September 9th, and I am located in Wilmington, North Carolina. The year is 2021. And my illustrious partner is Bryan Talbott and I have the distinct pleasure of being a co-worker of his. My name is Bryan Talbott. I happen to be 46 years old. It is today is Thursday. September 9th 2021 located here in the port city of Wilmington, North Carolina. I am pleased and honored to be with Maya, my boss, my supervisor, my inspiration. Mr. Frankie Roberts. Who is the co-founder and executive director of Link or leading into new conversation leading into Newcomb.

01:03 Entities.

01:07 Frankie I was just going to ask you some questions because I feel like I learn more if I talk less and listen more. So with things that have happened in the past few years with the shooting of George Floyd with increased demonstrations of black lives matter, what are some of the things that you think people from different backgrounds can do to help promote and grow racial equity.

01:44 Well, that's a great question. I think I'm I know for me and I would say one of these epiphanies I had doing the George Floyd situation or issue when I was in isolation, and I'm calling covid isolation for me cuz it's been traumatizing. One of the biggest things. I noticed that after the, after that event happened. There was an emerging of black lives matter.

02:22 And so I often get asked a question about Frankie you do, you know, do you think that we should be taunting black lives matter or should we agree that all lives matter?

02:40 And so, after several people have asked me that and I said, well, I normally would if I'm using black lives matter today and it's contacts. I don't know a whole lot about its history, but I do know that I would say black lives matter, because I remember a time when black lives didn't matter, when we look at the constitution on, we were 3/5 of a human being. So black lives, didn't matter if you looked at

03:14 Just a lot of things when it talked about, when I look at the civil rights movement and it was illegal for me to act, like I was equally and as a result, dogs got sick tan me and so, my life didn't matter. So when I look at black lives matter, I look at it as a reminder, because I don't want to go back in and do those times. I try to remind people, do ya, black lives matter. And, so as I have done that, and had that conversation,

03:49 And a few people say Frank and I'm talking about a few of my friends who happen to be white. They sent me and I never looked at it that way and I say, well,

04:00 Thank you that you know cuz I felt like we'd develop more consensus doing all our conversation. And so what I would say lastly is I had to recognize that maybe when it came to race that I wasn't communicating effectively with my white brothers and sisters because sometime I almost responded in the way to think that a white person will know what it feels like to be black and they couldn't possibly know versus looking for an object lesson or some shared experience to make a relative. I think that's amazing view point because

04:41 I could also see on the other hand.

04:45 Thinking, how do you not see this? How have you not watched the news, whether it be the last year, or two or however, long you been alive to see that? Some people aren't treated the same way. They don't have the same opportunities as others. There is such a thing as privileged whether people want to

05:09 Agree with that, acknowledge that or whatever the case may be.

05:14 I am not going to get this quote. Exactly. Right. But I did hear somebody say that a quality is not taking something from somebody else. To give to another person is both people. Having the same opportunities and being treated as equals, which has appealed to me just that sentiment of if nothing else. So, we were talking about white people, not understanding the experience of a black person. What are some of the things that you'd like white people to know about the experience of being a black man in Wilmington, North Carolina, for example. Oh wow.

05:55 Right off the bat. We go on there. So I was going to say, actually, to the most recent event.

06:03 With the shooting at the high school.

06:06 With the joint meeting between the city council County Commissioners, the judges and the school board a week ago.

06:19 And,

06:22 Doing that meeting. And as they talked about this horrific shooting in the schools. They activated 350 million dollars from the hospital sale to go towards your balance.

06:37 So what it feels like as a black man.

06:42 I felt disregarded.

06:45 And I was expressing that to one of my colleagues has disregarded. I say, I'm 56 years old and I have been on the Forefront of Harmony undoing racism, all of the pieces after George. Floyd people asking if I white, how can I support you or how can I help?

07:11 And and doing all this time. I have been saying and harboring on. We need help in our community related to Crime. We need support, we need opportunity, we need resources. And so I said I felt like, especially now that that went unheard or unwarranted as a legitimate.

07:37 Complaint gripe, how do you want to explain it? But as soon as I look at the Hanover shooting as my white brothers and sisters, children wasn't close proximity and had a shared experience, the county, the city, they was willing to throw the whole checkbook. 350 million dollars at a issue that I have been complaining about all my life. Right? And so I felt disregarded but at the same time felt some Triumph and also confirmed the things that I learned about I wasn't communicating effectively with white people.

08:22 Because that was a shared experience that white people had with me. And so then I Was Heard and they say, well, let's just do $350 to fix it. So that's how it kind of feels. And I think, sometime that, you know, even in explaining that

08:44 The some of my, my white brothers and sisters that, I talked to even looked at it that way. And so then I say well,

08:56 I had to articulate it. So it was like, I could see how you is. So Frank. So they then embrace me to say I can see how you could feel this regarding.

09:09 Because only and it was like that with the the Longleaf part shooting as well. When since white people's children.

09:20 Was had a shared experience again the next day they activated school counselors, and it was a crisis and no shooting that we've had in our community. Did anybody activate any school counselor?

09:36 So yeah, that was a long answer. It's in black and white. No phun intended, right? After I said that like hold on a second but it is a shared experience, you are in charge. You have power for them to then say we've got to do something about this. If it's our children that are In Harm's Way us our children, that might be hurt. So it's a disregard like you said and in a disrespect and a blind eye to other people, other people's children. Other children that are In Harm's Way live and

10:25 That's where the, the equality, the equity, the black lives matter. What, that's what it call me. That's a perfect example of it through all I had, but black lives matter is a completely different thing. And to transition into another question I had,

10:43 There are fortunately and I'm encouraged by this a decent number.

10:49 Of white folks that want to do the right. Yes, that want to help that want to educate themselves to have the shared experience to learn what it's like to have a perspective. They have to consider before in a lot of people. A lot of white people are, are reading books that address this issue or watching movies that address to his shoe. You. And I talked about one movie in particular about incarceration, that I put pieces together in the history of incarceration, in the history of so many different things that have happened in our country and continue to evolve but have the same goal in mind to keep certain people locked up in a way. Yes.

11:34 What are some of the books, movies things that that people that want to understand better?

11:43 An experience that they haven't had. Before a point of you, a perspective that you think is authentic doesn't Pander to people but maybe they can learn something from all that thing. The first and foremost, the book is Michelle. Alexander the new Jim Crow, that's kind of what I would say is probably one of the first books. I read that kind of marked history and very, you know, it very very plain English on how

12:20 Incarceration, Has Gone From Slavery to convict leasing to actually becoming a conflict and just to where we are now, and then also kind of a parallel move it to that was the 13th is based on the 13th Amendment, that kind of addict, addict guidance or permission for, you know, that for people to be locked up. And I think when it comes to black people, you know, when you are black that that is probably, you know, just the color scheme can single you out and I think that has become one of the driving forces that probably the undercurrent that was economics, you know, after

13:14 You know, I was a barber for the first twenty years of my life and having out of opportunity to work in a community-based organization. And you know, when you are a barber in your entrepreneur and you doing mostly everything by yourself, you know, as as an entrepreneur and maybe most of the time as a single entrepreneur or as the only employee and then when you now running organization, when you got 20 for employees, and then you are looking at monthly payroll.

13:52 I could see now the slave master of the slave owner. Yeah, the yeah, that's the biggest cost. So I can see how the slave trade was driven by economics. And because yeah, that that that that that payroll man, you know, looking at 40 and $50,000 a month to you, do to pay people, you said mad. If now if I only had the house the individuals and you know, and feed the individuals. Yeah, and that's all I had to do. Oh, yeah, I can, I can make bank so I can I see how that was an economic driver in the south.

14:41 And then, you know, and so then you kind of like Michelle, Alexander.

14:48 When you label people. And so then labeled as black and now I'll label as felons in the same way. Black people were labeled back in slavery that you can single folks out now and just kind of make him a permanent underclass forever.

15:11 And so that's that's kind of what I see around incarceration at and however, you know, they are few things is changing on the horizons. Now people that's on probation and parole. Can I vote in that happened within the last three to five weeks and that's unprecedented in North Carolina, There are other places where that it already taken place. And so now we are, they are there certain things like that answer that, that, that is reading franchised us and that has is creating more point. So,

15:49 I create more points, equality progress, being made.

16:01 Perhaps naively has a white dude. I thought that when President Obama was elected president.

16:10 That was a significant change. Not only as far as policy and politics go, but as far as race in America.

16:20 It felt like a new day. It felt different. I remember when he won. How emotional. I was remembering the next day. Getting up. The Sun was shining the birds were chirping. I thought we're going in a positive direction.

16:37 A lot of people are saying I'm not one of these people that set up racism is over in America. That's not it, but I thought we'd made a significantly.

16:48 What about 8 years later?

16:51 Things change. There was a different person in the White House and it seems to me now. I haven't done, you know, too many studies are research on this with no hypothesis this there, but I guess that our last president President Donald Trump, almost seem to make it okay to be outwardly, obviously, blatantly racist.

17:18 What is your take on that? Frankie what I mean? What do you think? Do you say, Do you think that the United States made a significant step in the right direction by electing the first black president United States? And then Part B of that is

17:37 Was it always there? And it was just raised to the service, was it? You know that the pendulum swings from one side to the other when it comes to politics and when it comes comes to culture and Society. What what do you think about that? Well, I think that that was a step in the right direction when Obama was elected, but I feel like

18:01 The step in the right direction and the things that it created has never really been focused on. I think what it created more than anything else was that at the time that the election happen, my 28 and so my grandson

18:30 Yeah, it was probably three or four years old.

18:34 And so,

18:36 Asking him that the election was today.

18:40 Who would you like the wind? And the first I asked him. Do you know who's running for president?

18:46 And so far five-year-old talk to actually Barack Obama and John McCain for him to know that and I was like, okay? And I said if the election was the happened today, who would you want to win?

19:05 And he said Barack Obama and I said why you would you want to do when he said, because his I'll turn, that's what he said. So that informed me. That the biggest thing with Obama winning was to create or to remove a rear seal a ceiling of impossibilities and restore the idea that anything is possible.

19:34 And so I said this is what I often talked about when I some sometime myself, you know, one of the things that happened.

19:43 In America during slavery. And what I would call

19:49 Unintentional understanding. I'm not going to call it an unintentional consequence. I'm going to call it an unintentional. Understanding of the circumstance. Is it created an inordinate amount of self-hatred?

20:05 Among black people. So when I with myself, one of the things that I have to regurgitate everyday, it's called internalized oppression of inferiority because it was when we were beat. It was beating us. You ain't nothing, you are less than. And so overtime, you became to hate the essence of the color of your skin of your existence. And so I called it created in most black people, a psychosis.

20:39 And so will Obama winning it. Help me with removing that psychosis from my children and reminding me what it what what what it could be. Like, if I just decide to be equal because really sitting at a table with other ethnic groups, I have to make a decision every day that I'm equal. Then I'm just as good ass. And because it's sometimes I almost want to be reminded to stay in my place and sometimes

21:17 It's nothing that a person at the table have to say.

21:22 For me to stay at my place, but I revert to that internalized, oppression of inferiority and that's it was faint.

21:31 The door open. I said, oh, oh, oh, it is open, and it's not necessarily somebody's holding me back, but it's that internalized, oppression that keeps me from moving for. So and I think I feel like that when Donald Trump was elected.

21:51 Even Donald Trump. This isn't couple of the books. I read about it.

21:55 Felt that it was a miracle, but what Donald Trump was able to do.

22:01 What's he was able to?

22:06 He was able to contrast that conflict that I had of internalized, oppression of inferiority. And so he was able to resurface... The opposite of that, which I'm going to call the internalized oppression of superiority. And so it was like, he rewrote that Capstone of remember, we are great and we are superior to them people without saying it and people started this to hear what they call it. The dog whistles. And then white people say, oh, yeah. I kind of enjoy this. Why? Wow, Donald Trump is not calling.

22:52 People of color other ethnic groups out there named, but he's calling, and a lot of times, that's what I think that because I know you do. I don't know what it feels like.

23:09 To have privilege based on the color of my skin. You got me, you know, I know what it's like to have privilege. Would what? I might have that other people don't have, but I think that she restored what that privilege look like. And I don't think that would be a bad existence. So with him kind of restoring that if people saw the benefits and I ain't got to feel guilty about this, and I think that's one of the things and then, he just kind of took it overboard. Then people started saying, I'm wait a minute, he going a little too far and, and, and in the midst of that,

23:54 I think that he did things like the Second Step Act.

24:01 That allowed a lot of federal a lot of prisoners who was doing Federal time to get out of prison early. So it was like now black people say, imma do this for y'all I had Kanye. Exactly and so and don't you know, and honestly, honestly when I looked at the what the what the law where he will Obama started and he just took it all the way, but when you're really looked at it, man, I was a Christmas miracle.

24:36 And, you know, I had friends that came out seven and nine years early. So it was, it was a Christmas miracle. He lobbed us a bone. But yeah, so, those were things that he did because he understood. I mean, was a movie star. He understand how to play that game. He understand how to he understand the power of mine. Perception is reality. Yes, and if he's out there and he believes now, that if he keeps saying the election was stolen two for him and he keeps saying it as he's been doing over and over again. Yeah, he might just get enough people to believe it. So there's a lot of people to believe that there's a lot of people that still believe it.

25:36 Leave that their side was done wrong, and there's some conspiracy involved in something like that. It also reminds me of what's going on now to an end and my guess is that with the changing a demographics in this country. I think white people are scared that they're losing power and privilege and they want to change the election laws and rules and these new Integrity laws for voting rights and all this stuff. Will Donald Trump's own person. That was a head of security for the elections in 2020, sells the most secure election we've ever had. So why do we need all these laws? Now to make it even more secure so my my take on it is that

26:27 White people are scared because they've always been in power. They've always been privileged and they don't want to share that power and privilege with others. And I'd love to hear what your take is on that. Oh, yeah. I was thinking I was thinking is an, is an inordinate amount of a fear. They called it, I guess in some Arenas they call it the Browning of America and

26:53 And I know a few studies that was done that. They are saying by 2030. 2050, the white people will be a minority, but I think there are a few things that you know, that I've recognized inside of that. And and that's because it's a what hey, we got to create opportunities in an economy. So if that happens, that who is now the majority won't get left out and we're leaving a lot of money on the table because we aren't taking a people-centered approach will take him more of an ethnic centered approach. And so I think if we recognize that, if we take a people-centered approaching the scripture, say we was made into different tribes and cultural so that we would get to know and love one another. And if we use that app

27:53 Coach and let it dry vile Behavior. I think it won't really matter who is the majority ethnic group, that we all can enjoy the fruit of the land. And I think that that is the part that again most times get left out. And I would say, my son reminded me of that years ago because scanavino height of my internalized, oppression of inferiority. My son used to remind me. Is that not go to school? Don't think like that. No more. He said,

28:38 That when we look at race, we don't look at it. Like y'all looked at play. Shane said he say things have changed and so he used to keep reminding me of that and keep reminding me of that. And so yeah, I could see that because a generation that I see that is here now. Yeah, it is not as in or dated with on privilege Prejudice discrimination. Yeah, they won't. They kind of want everybody to say. Why was it so they think about it a little different and I think that

29:18 So, I think that those are should be some of the things even when we look at voting and the inner dacian, now with the Voting Rights and trying to make it harder, because again, it's looking like Weller. If

29:33 If black people man get in power, then I'm afraid that black people is going to hold against me what my forefathers did. And if they respond that way then, yeah, that's not going to be good. And I don't think that that's the reality. I think. I don't think that is wrong. And people were afraid of that inside and from what I can understand some black folks were like, he's not doing enough for us right there. He's in the White House. What? You know, they're going to do reparations and everything else, correct? And then there were people say, hey, I'm glad he's doing the right thing and you know, not making this group upset, but, you know, it I can't imagine the pressure that he and Michelle were under. I mean, they

30:33 Make fun of the man for wearing a tan suit for God. So, you know, compared to compared to those Access Hollywood tape. I think you're exactly right as far as the fear of the sins of the father coming down that generation. But speaking of generations, that is a great thing because it seems like the generation that's younger than I am. They don't see race the same way. It's a positive step in the right direction and is quickly as I would like to see equality for all soaks to get the same shot to get the same opportunities to not be discriminated against it takes time. Sometimes, you know, it's just the Evolution versus a revolution. That is correct. What I look back on.

31:24 You know, my father's generation compared to my generation and there was a Quantum Leap there. And then now there's a significant jump as well. And, you know, unfortunately, I think there's a lot of people are still trying to impede that progress. One of the things that you know, where we're sitting here in the Wilmington, North Carolina in a lot of people don't know about something that happened in the city back in 1898, and I'm actually angry that I didn't know about it because I grew up not too far from here, about two hours in Rocky Mount North Carolina, and when you're in the 8th grade, you got to take a North Carolina history class.

32:06 Well, there was a coup attempt that happened in Wilmington, North Carolina in 1898, and it was never talk to us in school growing up about two hours from from this wonderful place.

32:20 And it's the only coup attempt in United States. History. Is that a ride is correct? You probably know it better than I do. I know some of the parts and pieces but

32:34 Give us, give us some details and information on what caused that and what happened and how

32:41 That blood is still staining some of the streets and areas of our city. Yo, Brian, I'm not going to say I know more about it because like you I didn't know about it to later later later in life. And I think that I'm again, I think the fear of what I've heard of retaliation, but really not understand a retaliation, but I would say it was doing that time. They had, what was called, more of a fusion is government and, and it has a result of that. You had a lot of blacks who were in elected offices.

33:23 Also doing the time in the late 1800s, even before that happened. You had on blacks outnumber whites, probably about 10 to 7 and ended in Wilmington. And because it was a port Town, it was on the trajectory to become a modern-day Atlanta with the large influx of black folks, doing really well. And so there were some white Democrats and I say that like Democrats that you know, just kind of thought that that that's not the way they wanted their government to be. And so as a result, they

34:11 They had a.

34:13 They created a diversion which was a newspaper article and they doing creating a diversion though. It created like

34:27 And that angry mob. And so as a result of that they killed, you know.

34:35 Certain Reports say a hundred. Something 507c, 250 is, but they did in it. At the end of the day. They killed a lot of black people and burned down businesses. And I don't think that the the town. Number one is ever recover from that. Right? We saw a nother glimpse of that that happened in the in the between 1968 and 71 with the Wilmington ten on what a frame. These 10 students for burning down a grocery store that they didn't burn down. And these ten individuals was actually just fighting for equal rights after they closed. Williston and which was as they say the greatest school Under the Sun which was ranked top five high schools in the country, black or white.

35:31 I'm which one of his graduates went on to become the president of MIT. So they, it was some sick and it was some significance to that school. And then when it was closed down, you know, there were a group of black young blacks that were saying, man. We got to this is not fair, but they were punished to the degree that we went into martial law. And there was a tank park there at where the Martin Luther King Center is as I'm one of the old names it and you said it had the name on

36:05 Something related to a tank but because the tanks was there to enforce the martial law and so bad. It was, you know, just going through those ranks over time. I think that what we see now is a like of progressive blacks and Wilmington. And it's the psychosis of fear that I'm afraid because I know what happened before. And so, you know again that internalized oppression of inferiority, I have you, stay quiet.

36:41 Even when you don't want to see what my mother used to always say, thank you shouldn't say that does things to people, but my mother used to taunt or Express equality, but she used to behave in such an inferiority and overtime, always bleed, more escorting. Toilet things that I caught was to stay in your place.

37:10 Frankie, this is Ben.

37:13 A great experience for me has been a pleasure. I just want to thank you for what you do in Wilmington in the community. There's so many people that love you and that it Meijer you you're probably one of the most of my people that I know a man. That's the truth and I just want to thank you for the opportunity. You provided me with being a part of blank and hopefully make some kind of impact in a positive way in our community or brown. I want to thank you too for

37:44 Put on the line of questioning. A lot of times that is therapy, being able to talk about things that sometime you don't have a platform to discuss. And So based on your line of questioning. Thank you for regarding me, I felt very well regarded in our conversation and I really appreciate that opportunity and I appreciate working with you. I always enjoy it.