Gail Sinai and Arden Donohue

[00:02] GAIL SINAI: Hi, I'm Arden. She her. I am 31. I'm here, central synagogue with my friend Gail Sinai.

[00:14] ARDEN DONOHUE: Hi, I'm Gail Sinai. I'm 62 years old. Today is October 7, 2022, and we are sitting here in person at central Synagogue in New York City. And I'm here with my friend Arden. And we agreed that I would start the conversation, so I'm going to do that. Arden, I'm so interested in you telling me your story about how you came to be here at central Synagogue. I think it's really unique, and I'm really interested. Start as early as you can.

[00:51] GAIL SINAI: Well, there was some time, I would say it was like, middle early, like 2019, roughly where, like, I'm a writer. It's kind of sporadic how often I write or what I write about, but sometimes it's like fiction, sometimes it's poetry. And I had an idea for a story. Hasn't really come to fruition yet, but basically it heavily involved Judaism. I was not jewish at that point. It just kind of came about just through simple, like, working through, like, the logic of the story and world. And there was a rabbi character. There was Judaism involved. So I did some research, bit by bit, over time, leisurely, and eventually I came across. I found out about Rabbi Angela Buchdahl at central synagogue, senior rabbi, and was curious to learn more about her. There were some sermons online, so I decided to start watching some. It would be a good idea to get an idea of what sermons from Rabbi Ehrlich. And I was pretty quickly hooked. And immediately, like, one of her sermons, her sermon on about her interpretation of the Garden of Eden, really spoke to me theistically. Like, it was the first time I heard. First time I heard of, like, a theology that kind of resonated with mine, even if it wasn't perfectly like mine. And I felt a little less alone. But it wasn't until, like, a bit later, like, going through her sermons, that I started having that moment where I thought to myself, damn it, I see where this is going. And I figured I would. And I soon sought out the center for exploring Judaism at central synagogue and decided to start taking a class, which is a big leap of faith for me because I didn't have a plan yet. And it was even in evening class when I was working evenings. And I ended up being able to make it work with my schedule somehow. I was lucky there, but I figured I would take the class and if I came to, and so that if I did come to the conclusion that I actually did want to convert to Judaism, I would already be part of the way along that gives an idea of how impatient or how focused I am on setting up plans for myself. And it was a few months of waiting for the time to say yes, finally, I'm doing this. And then I just kind of went ahead, and that was that. And I eventually finished my conversion. January 2020.

[03:32] ARDEN DONOHUE: Wow. Wow. Thanks. There's so much. I have so many questions. I can keep going. What was it about the Garden of Eden's sermon? What did you hear that hooked you? I mean, Angela's got so many hooks. I just wonder what yours was.

[03:51] GAIL SINAI: I'd have to really think far back for that. But I think for me, it's just kind of feeling like there is some force there that's, like, ambiguous, that there is something within the world, that there's something within the world. And my general theology, it wasn't quite fully picture. It wasn't fully articulated in a way where I could clearly define it or explain when I was kind of, like, sort of had somewhat formed, but didn't have a place to channel it. So I stepped away for, like, a couple few years before then. But basically, I feel like, in a sense, like the idea of man being made in, like, God's image or humanity being made in that image is, like, not so much God looks like a human being, but more that the universe, in a way, is like the body, and God is kind of the soul going throughout kind of a very hasidic or a hasidic adjacent way of thinking about God and the world. And since there's enough similarities in her theology of having, in a way, a rational, modern understanding of God, but at the same time, very out there and not really bound by any kind of science, just kind of, really kind of going off into a very spiritual. Yes, the spiritual, I think, is right where sense of that. And I came to learn that there's a bunch of interpretations in Judaism that are very, very much like that. But I didn't have a lot of exposure to that, even like, when I was going to some hello meetings back during college, because I was a jewish girl at the time, I didn't really come across anything quite like that, where I was like. But then again, I had to be the right person at the time. I was not the same person that I was when I came across Angela's sermon, like, later on. So stuff has to kind of click together in the right way.

[05:59] ARDEN DONOHUE: I think that makes perfect sense. Right. It's such an interesting thing that you're saying about the theology of it being less about the corporeal dude on the cloud and much more amorphous. Am I hearing you right?

[06:15] GAIL SINAI: I think so. I think that's about right.

[06:17] ARDEN DONOHUE: Right. And the Garden of Eden, it can be very concrete. So it was really different. That's so interesting. What other. I know you were together in Bible and bagels, and I know not last summer, but the summer before, you were really interested in some angelus sermons. Do you remember that?

[06:39] GAIL SINAI: Yeah. In general, I found her sermons really interesting. I mean, this year, some really, like, hooked me, like, around the high holidays. But, like, also, every so often, there's one I'm like, yes, yes. Out of the park, of course. Of course. All of them aren't, like, home runs for me. But the more anyone goes up the bat, there's gonna be. There's gonna be some. So. I mean, even the Beatles had so. So. Like, let's be honest.

[07:04] ARDEN DONOHUE: Yes, let's. And you know what? It's so interesting when you say that, because when I think of so so Beatles songs, I think of older songs as so so Beatles songs, but that's not really fair. They were of their time, right? Same, same.

[07:17] GAIL SINAI: I think so. And there's some later ones I think are kind of so so that I still enjoy, but they aren't, like, the absolute, like, I can listen to this, like, nonstop, ten times kind of songs.

[07:27] ARDEN DONOHUE: We could have. We could have a debate about yellow submarine. Let's. Nothing. So I have also had that experience of Angela's sermon, some of them being really transformative, particularly during the pandemic. But you're coming to it in 2019, right? Which was just before. Do you think any of that affected your process?

[07:58] GAIL SINAI: I'm gonna make a correction. I got the years wrong because this is, like, thinking years back. I remember it's actually 2018 was when I was starting this, because my conversion year was 2019, and then I finished in 2020. That makes sense. So it was around, like, fall 2018, but 2019 was really the year when I was kind of coming here, like, regularly or somewhat regular, kind of getting through it.

[08:21] ARDEN DONOHUE: So, yeah, that makes much more sense. I have a visual memory of the first time I saw you at Mishkan and the first time I saw you in Bible and bagels, back when we would. And it seemed to me that this was quite adventurous for you to do it. I mean, for me, I'm old school, but for you, yeah, it's quite brave.

[08:43] GAIL SINAI: Yeah, I remember it was, like, maybe around, like, march ish. It was like my, like. Yeah. When I went to, like, my first Mishkan and then, like, maybe, like, a month or two later, I went to my second Mishkan. The first one was with rabbinical intern Sarah Berman.

[09:02] ARDEN DONOHUE: Oh, my goodness.

[09:03] GAIL SINAI: Now rabbi. And it was funny, like, at the time, like, she accidentally forgot to come to me with, like, the cups of, like, grape juice and wine. And I was like. I was like, tell her. No, no, it was fine. And later on, like, years later, I would tell her, like, I kind of liked that moment because it made it more memorable, which was true, because I still remember it years later.

[09:23] ARDEN DONOHUE: Yeah.

[09:24] GAIL SINAI: Like, little cute slip ups like that. But, like, also, like, the second time went to Mishkan. That was when Rabbi Nicole Auerbach was there. And at the time, like, I was new to Judy as minofthat. Like, anytime meeting a new rabbi, it was like, a novelty for me, like, in characters. Like, oh, cool, I'm happy to meet another rabbi. Sure. Great. And not really fully appreciating this kind of special person. I was, like, meet in and to getting to know in some way, but that was who I was at that time. You don't know these things.

[09:51] ARDEN DONOHUE: Yeah, you don't know. I mean, certainly, when you walk into central synagogue and you see it physically, it implies things for those of you who can't see it or are listening to this now, but you can't know, I mean, who we're meeting, and they're monsters of. They're monsters in a good way. I think they're just huge.

[10:15] GAIL SINAI: Yeah. It's like, often still, I have moments where I have brief moments of gratitude that I feel like I am among the gods of Olympus.

[10:26] ARDEN DONOHUE: Yeah, it does have that quality to it. Right. I feel like if I remember how to do Storycorps correctly, I should define something terms we just popped off. But Mishkan. And correct me, Arden, if I don't have it, right. Mishkan is a service that we have here. It was Rabbi Oyerbakh's brainchild, and the idea was to create a smaller community that could really engage the service more intimately than sometimes happens in our big room on Saturdays, especially if there's a simultaneous bar bat mitzvah. Does that feel fair?

[11:05] GAIL SINAI: Yeah, basically, because the only, like, other Saturday Nomorn service is basically like the b'nai mitzvah kind of stuff, which is fine, but, like the poor, if you're there for the prayers, the prayers get greatly simplified, condensed, because they want to make it more approachable to the families who hardly ever go to services. And that's not perfect for people who are regular prayer goers. It works for me, but, like. But it's. But also that works for me because I consider, like, celebrating life, in a way, a prayer, and that's what you're doing when you're there with that, like, 13 year old, like, trying. Trying to, like, process all this. Yeah, the poor thing. Yeah.

[11:47] ARDEN DONOHUE: Did you skip that? Are you thinking about having a bat mitzvah? What do you think?

[11:51] GAIL SINAI: I'm planning to have a bat mitzvah, actually.

[11:53] ARDEN DONOHUE: Do you?

[11:53] GAIL SINAI: Yeah. And it's actually good. I think it's gonna be interesting because. Oh, it's interesting because it's gonna be at the Mishkan. And even. And I won't say too much, but even internally, I'm, like, being within the class, I can kind of see some friction between the. Robert Oyerbakh's philosophy of trying to make it, like, very much about the community, but at the same time, it's centered around whoever. Whichever group of people that week is gonna be, like, B. Misfah. And there's definitely been, like, a work in progress learning for the students as well as the teachers, I think. And also, if I'm being perfectly honest, like, a bit of butting heads with me and the clergy.

[12:34] ARDEN DONOHUE: You've been butting heads with of the.

[12:36] GAIL SINAI: Clergy who came up, but with mainly Nicole. But, like, it's a. I am a passionate person with opinions. Yes. For reminder, I am jewish.

[12:54] ARDEN DONOHUE: Born Jewish, whether you knew it or not.

[12:56] GAIL SINAI: And when it comes to, like, a special moment, like, a bat mitzvah, I can get bridezilla. At times, I try to tone it down, but, like, I don't shy away. And then some of the clergy that I crossed paths with more can definitely attest to that. I'm not shy about giving feedback. I'm afraid they give feedback, but I'll still do it anyway.

[13:20] ARDEN DONOHUE: May I share, if it's helpful, the story of my younger son, bar mitzvah?

[13:25] GAIL SINAI: Yes, please. Sure.

[13:26] ARDEN DONOHUE: Thanks. My younger son is 25 now. He was bar mitzvah here at central synagogue. Synagogue. And just to give some color to it, just a smidge on the spectrum, a little. Not a little sensory, and consequently a little resistant, a little edgy. You know, I love him. Hopefully, he'll never listen to this, in any event, and he knows himself that way. So as his bar mitzvah approached, and he had a very interesting date. He had. This is all in the before times, and he had the assignment date, which is the date that the fourth graders get their date. So the whole room, the whole synagogue, was going to be full. Full. And it mattered how he and his partner did it. All these. This next generation was going to see. It was all very lodor, vador, and a little overwhelming. So Peter was his rabbi, Rabbi Rubinstein at the time. And my son came home and declared, as he was preparing toward the end, I don't believe in God. And my dvar is going to say that, well, this concerned me not because he wasn't entitled to his opinion. Opinion. But I have to tell you that Peter really honored that really worked with him, really worked on his dvar so that it would be true to him and not humiliate the rest of us like, he was young then, but I really appreciated how central handled that. They didn't. They didn't shut it down. You know, he was in his place. Be in your place. I'm sure Nicole's kind of having fun, but she's not telling you.

[15:28] GAIL SINAI: I'm sure she. And, you know, she smiles anyway, and also, I'm sure she can tell, like, I'm holding myself back a bit in a way. Aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not gonna get my claws out. I understand. These are human beings, and I wanna work with them. I don't wanna work against them.

[15:47] ARDEN DONOHUE: No.

[15:48] GAIL SINAI: And I think it's important for me, especially, like, with my ambitions, to, like, somebody someday be a rabbi. I kind of need to, like, have some diplomacy, even. Especially when it's difficult, because a lot of the, like, any of the clergy are not going to tell you this, but not usually. But I'm sure it's difficult to, like, really kind of keep things together and, like, you know, and to, like, work with people even when things get difficult, because we're all human beings and we all have our imperfect flaws. It's an art to pick the right times, to open up and show one's humanity in that kind of powerful position, and one to not do so when it's an unwise time or in a bad way.

[16:38] ARDEN DONOHUE: Right, right. So you're understanding your bat mitzvah process as part of that growth, I guess.

[16:45] GAIL SINAI: Yeah. Like, it is a. It is a process. It's a process for anyone to, like, learn more about themselves and to develop as people, whatever age they do it at. And I think I'm doing that in my own way. And I've seen myself kind of shed away some of my ego or some of my, like, faults in a way, myself over time.

[17:03] ARDEN DONOHUE: Uh huh. Uh huh. That sounds just right. I remember when my children were preparing for their own bar mitzvahs. One of the things that Angela said at the time is it's really the first project that a child that age takes on. Young really dedicates six months to working. You know, beginning, middle, end, and all of that in it. And it hadn't occurred to me, but it's true. And that coming away just from that, at least that's what Angela thought was valuable in itself, regardless what the day looked like. So it sounds like you're, like, really in it. Good. You go. That's excellent. That's exciting. You can break in if you want to hear something about me, but I'm interested in that short story that got you researching that brought you to Angela. Is that okay or is that not.

[18:00] GAIL SINAI: I can say a little bit, but I'm not going to go in great detail. Short story.

[18:05] ARDEN DONOHUE: I'm sorry.

[18:07] GAIL SINAI: It was. I would say it's like, it would either be like a series of, like. Well, my intention would be to write. Write it as a comic. Because when I do like long fiction, I tend to lean towards that. But I would need to find an illustrator because I don't draw. So that's a trick there. But I need. I need to find time for that because, you know, it's. I'm busy enough as it is. I don't see myself being any less busy in rabbinic work. So that's a trick. Buying time without pushing myself too hard. But it would either be installments or just be all done in one go. Or maybe larger book volume parts, because people release it that way, rather than 20 to 40 page issues. But basically, it would be a story. It would be centered around one character, kind of who kind of is a part of midrash. But it would be my take of it and happened in the modern day. And it would be very much based around jewish texts, folktales, and kind of building off of that and kind of playing around with that. And basically that. I don't know. I'm not going to say much about it because I don't know if it's ever going to come to fruition. I'd like it to, especially considering how much it kind of led me to this path. But I try not to worry about that too much because I have a lot of interest. And you never know where your life is going to go. So it's like you do what you can, basically. But. Yeah, that's more Morrison.

[19:53] ARDEN DONOHUE: That's neat. So it sounds a little. Well, that just sounds so interesting. I hope he comes to a place where I can read it. That sounds so cool. Have you found central welcoming in general?

[20:08] GAIL SINAI: Yes, I think I have as much as I could hope for, but there's not really anything I could really complain about. And as time's gone on, I've gotten more grateful up for this place because of, like, it just. It fits my kind of general theology or style pretty well. There are times where there's, you know, it doesn't fit perfectly, and also, it depends on the person. Like, some clergy, I very much, like, click with, like, immediately. And there are others who I respect or understand their process and how they can be good for others. And there are times where they're definitely good for me, but I acknowledge to myself. Cause I'm not gonna be mean or rude, but I acknowledge myself that their style resonates to meet with me a bit less. But it's what it is. But it helps me learn more about myself, and I think that's good. And I like the little challenges where I think of how certain clergy are different from my process, but they can still teach me something, because if I really think about it, my process is more, like, mix or, like a little cocktail, like, different, like, clergy's approaches rather than, like, this specifically like ones.

[21:21] ARDEN DONOHUE: Uh huh. So the clergy totally thumbs up. Even the ones you don't thumbs up with?

[21:28] GAIL SINAI: Yeah.

[21:28] ARDEN DONOHUE: What about the rest of us?

[21:32] GAIL SINAI: I'm pretty happy with people. There's definitely, like. There's definitely, like, varying amounts of, like, how much I feel close to someone, but in general, I feel pretty, you know, but in general, there are people that I like or love, and I feel pretty comfortable with people. I very much feel like it's a kind of. We're all family here, whether or not it's always easy. And there's a certain comfort in that, that even when things might get difficult or I might like, like my experiences a bit less, I'll still come back to everyone, and things will still be cool, and we'll still, like, work through whatever it is. And if I have any doubts, like, oh, no, are they gonna, like, not like me? No, they'll still like me. They'll still love me. It's just, you know, just. Just, you know, live life, do things bit by bed, and don't worry about it too much. Like, we're all, like, we're all just navigating this scary world, weird world together.

[22:29] ARDEN DONOHUE: So that's how it feels. That's cool. I'm glad to hear that. You know, I wouldn't have your insight into how we gel as a group, so I appreciate that.

[22:41] GAIL SINAI: I kind of feel like in high school, you go to whichever table of friends you feel most comfortable with, and then, like, as time goes on, you kind of drift away from them because you aren't situated with them. But in a congregation, at least one like I've been in, it's more in the long term. So some people might, like, go their ways or whatever, but it's crazy. It's the long haul. So you kind of, like, have this ongoing relationship with everybody, and you don't worry. And for me, at least, I don't worry about, like, if someone is, like, my acquaintance is my friend, if I like them or I love them, I just appreciate them, and I just let my feelings and my interactions go, and it takes me a good direction.

[23:21] ARDEN DONOHUE: That's fantastic. I'm so glad. That's just, like, so rewarding to here. You know, I'm just in it. And so I'm really glad to hear that. Am I monopolizing the question side of things? Did you have something you wanted to know about me?

[23:37] GAIL SINAI: Well, I'm curious, like, how did you find Central?

[23:42] ARDEN DONOHUE: And I'm happy to tell you. So, as I alluded, I have two sons, 31 and 25 now. And when the 31 year old was getting ready to be in hebrew school, we started to synagogue shop in New York City. And I grew up in the reform movement from the very, very get go, which was a choice my parents made that created feelings and conflict in their family who were, you know, this is classic. Straight from Russia, straight out of the shtetl, straight to the Orthodox in Brooklyn. We live in the Bronx because we're wild people, you know, kind of story. So when my parents moved to central Jersey, which they considered a daring act of daring, do, they also joined a Reform synagogue, which was controversial. And that's a synagogue I grew up in. So when my children, when my young oldest son was ready for hebrew school, and there was never a question in my mind, it was just a question of which Reform synagogue in New York City was going to be my home. And so we went synagogue shopping, which you can do in Manhattan, and we just went from one to another. And then when we came to central, I'll never forget it. Of course, when you walk in the doors of that building, it's very imposing. So we just sort of like, and this would have been early in Rabbi Rubinstein's tenure at central synagogue. Spoiler alert. But one thing that Rabbi Rubinstein and my son, oldest son, used to like is that Rabbi Rubinstein's first day at central was my son's day of birth. And they liked that. And I always felt like, you know, I was there, too. But anyway, so we came, and central was not what it was, what it is now. My observation is that Rabbi Rubinstein I think they talked about it this year. If you watched the live stream at Yizkor today. Yes. They talked about what Rabbi Rubinstein did to transform central from what had been some low and dark days into what it is now. But when we came, it was early in that process. So we got seats on the aisle. It was easy to get seats on the aisle in the middle back then. I imagine it's easy now again, but for different reasons. And we sat down and we were there for service. And Rabbi Rubinstein had introduced a hakafa, which now we take for granted, but the Reform movement wasn't doing that at that time. So Rabbi Rubinstein came around. We're in the middle. And he passed my son Louis, and he looked at him. He was just a little guy, a little six year old guy. And he said, hey, want to adjust the Torah? And my kids eyes were like saucers. Like saucers. So he looked at me and I said, oh, go with the rabbi. So, Peter, Rabbi Rubinstein took his hand and they walked off, which was already overwhelming. But behind him, the assistant rabbi came up behind and whispered to me, he always picks the cute ones. This was Josh Davidson. Anyway, I said, this is a closed deal. This is a closed deal. So from there, you know, we started attending. My kids went to the hebrew school. They had their bar mitzvahs. It's, you know, just been our religious home for many, many years. My older son was one of the Torah readers. One year. My younger son went on the. They both went on the confirmation trips. I mean, it's just been part of our life for so long. That's how we came here. So watched Angelus, and it's just been an important part of my life, which I really appreciate.

[28:23] GAIL SINAI: Yeah, I get the impression that, like, currently in the current, the current Buchdahl era, but also the Rubinstein era, that, like, there was a kind of, like, still trying to be reformed, but not like throwing out the baby with bathwater, like, trying to, like, kind of go in the direction that people were slowly starting to go towards or were about to. Of, like, trying to find, like, a modern, like, reform approach where it's not throwing everything away, but still finding a way to kind of pick and choose or be like, be modern in every foreign way.

[28:54] ARDEN DONOHUE: Yeah. Just for me, I think that's the genius of what reformed Judaism brings. I know that I grew up, as I said, in an environment that treated reformed Judaism as, like, fake Judaism. I don't agree. And, in fact, I think that. That there's a profound genius in it where we're looking to what the essence of what's happening, how can we raise that up? How can we find what's good around us and valuable without losing what Judaism has to say? And I think that matters. When I was mourning and I was in, are we good with time? Thank you. When I was mourning and I first went to minion, that was also back in person. And classically, you can't have a minion without a minion, which, for listeners who don't know, means ten jewish men. Classically reformed Judaism, of course, would say ten jewish humans. But in any event, and that was something that was hard to achieve, literally at that time. And then once in a while, we would do it. And when we hit ten, but we didn't not pray, we did not mourn, because we couldn't get ten people, and we didn't run up and down the streets looking for Jews, which is the classic approach in Borough Park, God bless them. So. But when we hit ten people, we'd say, she and I remember the first time, I was the 10th person who walked in because services stopped and they said a shehehianu, as though I had created life, which, you know, in my morning, Washington, a pretty profound thing. And that felt to me like what reformed Judaism allows. If we're not going to be rigid, got to have ten or you can't do it. And I understand the reasons for that, and I honor that. But how can we find what's rich in. That was right crystallized in that moment. So I really appreciate Reform Judaism that way, like you're saying about Rabbi Rubinstein and also just the creative growing that we do here. So that's why I like to be here.

[31:39] GAIL SINAI: That's nice.

[31:40] ARDEN DONOHUE: Thanks. I feel pretty good about it, but it's hard, you know, I think being a reformed Jew is hard. It's. Work requires you can't. I mean, you can always cheat. I don't think of it as cheating. You can follow ritual and be non reflective. But I also think of Judaism as questions. And if you're not. If we're not questioning, what are we doing? We're just ritualizing.

[32:11] GAIL SINAI: I think there's, like a dichotomy of difficulty across different denominations or really across spectrum of denominations, which I don't think really works as a binary, like a linear spectrum, but for simplicity's sake, I'll just, you know, look at, like, reform and, like, Orthodox are often, like the two, like, polar opposites that people see. And I. And I've kind of observed that, like, the difficulties of, like, orthodoxy is you have to follow all these rules whether you like it or not. And the difficulties of reform is you don't have to. So now you have to choose and go through all that work. So you lose. And so you get some easiness from not having to worry about the choices because they're done for you in orthodoxy. But you also have the ease with reform because, well, you have some flexibility. So, like, you can have that, like, bacon and cheeseburger if you want. But you also have to, you know, but also you have to make the choice. Like, is this good for me? Is this not? And, like. And, like, weight those decisions.

[33:08] ARDEN DONOHUE: Yeah, that's exactly how I see it. My father's, fortunately for me, oh, gosh. Still alive. And I should poo poo poo all over the place. He's still alive. And he's been doing Torah study at my childhood synagogue at least 30 years since he's got around to retiring. And he'll tell you straight up, but it's not that I believe in God, but he's more devout to his study. And that's very hard to explain to someone outside. He's making those choices. He's thinking about his tradition and what it means. And that's hard and valuable, I think, but hard.

[33:49] GAIL SINAI: Yeah.

[33:51] ARDEN DONOHUE: Is that what attracted you or is that just my own little excitement?

[33:56] GAIL SINAI: For me, what attracted me, I guess, is there's a bunch of different things. But if I had to pick one, one main thing is it makes me appreciate life more. Like, certain practices, certain rituals, time observances or, like, study or, like, just ways I can articulate philosophy or how it clicks with my thing and help me kind of jog and, like, move forward with whatever is my moral development or just my life living development. It helps me think more mindfully. It helps me, like, focus on what's most important and, like, progress or develop in that kind of way. And I. And with that, like. And with that comes, like, you know, a greater appreciation or joy in life than I even had before to the point that, like, I remember, like, I remember, like, when I decided I was going to, like, go to, like, do the class with some intention of, like, converting. I decided, like, the following Saturday, this is before, like, I didn't do social media on Shabbat. I don't do social media. But back then. But back then, I did so, like, I often, as I do, would like, or did was I would go on Facebook or something to kind of wake myself up. And looking on Facebook did too good of a job of that, because I had found out that a bunch of people got shot in Pittsburgh in the synagogue. This is the tree of life. Shoot in for those who don't know. And that was kind of like. And it didn't hit me. Like, stuff like that hits later on. I wasn't quite in it yet, but that was, like, the first time. But I was kind of grateful I made some decision, at least moved towards it before then, because that was a watershed moment. And I kind of felt that, oh, this could possibly be me in some sense. How?

[35:44] ARDEN DONOHUE: In what way help me?

[35:46] GAIL SINAI: Because if I converted, then I would be one of the Jews. I'd be one of the, like. Like the heinic kind of like, oh, this could be me, like, you know. But what made Jews were thinking then, like, oh, I could be a victim of this violence. But as time went. But as time went on, I made my decision of, like, converting. That, like, the possibility of violence didn't really keep me from saying, even considering backing out.

[36:12] ARDEN DONOHUE: Wow.

[36:13] GAIL SINAI: And a lot of that was me, like, getting enough appreciation out of life that if I said no, I wouldn't really consider that truly living, knowing what I could get if I converted. So.

[36:27] ARDEN DONOHUE: Oh, I have to breathe. Thank you so much for that. You know, I. As I said, I just grew up jewish. That that was never tree of life was never an option for me in any way. It was always just one of the things. I mean, my cause, my family's on the russian piece of things. You know, running away from the czar was how we did it. Very fiddler on the roofy, but same phenomenon. I don't think I ever actively chose or chose against. It. Just had to accept its reality.

[37:05] GAIL SINAI: And also, that's interesting. And also, the other thing that, like, was a big design. Well, that kept me from thinking, no, Washington. If I was gonna say, no, I have to do it for the right reasons. I was not gonna do it for the wrong reasons, because of violence, because I would know that if I was thinking, would I be one of the people who, like, let their neighbors get taken away by the Gestapo? I knew I'd be one of those people who were silent. If I backed out for that reason, it had to be because I didn't want to convert. It couldn't be because of violence.

[37:33] ARDEN DONOHUE: That's really beautiful. I really appreciate you sharing it. You must have heard Angela's sermon on Yom Kippur about antisemitism and pride. It feels like we've circled around right back to it. Right. Why don't you talk to it? I mean, I can recite it so we have it for posterity here.

[37:51] GAIL SINAI: Well, specifically if we have time, but, like, it was on Rosh Hashanah.

[37:57] ARDEN DONOHUE: She's right.

[37:57] GAIL SINAI: She's right. Yom Kippur was good, too, in its own way. But for, like, the Rosh Hashanah one, that was really important for me because I was doing a lot of introspection that day, which is too much. That's a whole conversation in its own way. But it really kind of helped me think about myself, the different components of myself, and how to balance my life out and live in a way that was balanced. Because if I focus too much on one thing, then I can overpower everything else. And I don't enjoy the overall parts of my life more because I need to. Cause then I'm missing out on certain things. I need to find the right balance for me. So every part of my life is better appreciated. It's more enjoyable. It's healthier for me. And that was really good at helping me think about the different parts of my life, how my jewish part influences all my other parts and vice versa. And that was just really like. And that was really, like, good for my just general introspection.

[39:02] ARDEN DONOHUE: I agree. I also found we have two sex. I found that just reframing it as leaning in proud and that who I am and what I do, I consider myself pretty moral and pretty human, concerned. And so leaning into that as formed by Judaism, something I can be proud of, a way I can stand in and up, rather than just shrinking in fear from what is clearly a lot of tumult right now. Really encouraged me, was really grounding. I think we're, like, done right. I just wanted to thank you so much, Arden, for sharing this with me and being so vulnerable. I'm very for Clemp. It really was beautiful to spend this time with you.

[39:58] GAIL SINAI: Thank you. It was very meaningful for me, too, and it helped me process a lot of just general thoughts that talked to talk about them out loud. Here.

[40:06] ARDEN DONOHUE: Oh, I'm so glad. Thanks.