Gayle Raskin and Isabella Gonzalez

[00:09] GAYLE RASKIN: Hi. My name is Gayle Raskin. I'm 65 years old. Today is October 11, 2022. And I am sitting here in Soho, New York, with my interview partner, Bella.

[00:25] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Hi, Gayle Good to be here with you. I'm Isabela Gonzalez. I'm 26 years old. Today is October 11, 2022. I'm here in Soho, New York, with my new conversation partner, Gayle So, Gayle I wanted to start off by asking if you could tell me your abortion story.

[00:47] GAYLE RASKIN: Well, I have many abortion. I just, unfortunately, was one of those people who would be looked at and get pregnant. And I always recognize the possibility that that would happen, that sex could lead to pregnancy. But I was cautious, relatively. Believe it or not, I was on the pill for a while. I used diaphragms, I used condoms. I still managed to get myself pregnant to the point where I had to have five abortions. And I also have three of the most loveliest, wonderful children. So I consider myself very fortunate. And I do feel like I got the greatest gift in the world for living at the time when I lived where an abortion was relatively easy to come by. And I want to focus on one in particular, because I. Well, maybe two. I had three fairly traditional abortions, and then I had two fairly untraditional abortions. The one I'll talk most about is one that was done. It was an at home abortion, and it wasn't the abortion medication pill that is being done now, but it was actually a group of women here in the city who were offering menstrual extractions. They were offering early abortions. And I knew one of them. I worked at a hospital, although not in the medical field, and one of them was a volunteer of mine at a program that I ran. And when hearing that I was pregnant and kind of, I had already had two children and a full time job and all the things that kind of people find a little overwhelming in life. And the last thing I could think about having at that point was another child. She asked me if I would consider meeting with this group of women that she was involved with. And the caveat was that my husband, who had good, solid relationship with, could not be present in any way in real form or in, you know, at that point, there wasn't a real virtual form, but he could not be there. This was a women, you know, a women only women helping women kind of thing, which sounded pretty interesting for me to at least explore. And these women came over to my apartment, and it was really interesting. There was nothing to sign. There were no waivers. I mean, there was just trust. It was it was fascinating. When I think back now, it's like, what was I thinking? I mean, I was the mother of two small children. My daughters were two and four. And I kind of entrusted my being to basically these women. I didn't know. I mean, one I knew, but I also didn't know fully what her abilities were or actually, at that point, what role she would even play. I mean, she played a non medical, more support person, in my experience. So I agreed to sign up for us. They did a demo of what they would actually be doing, and it was the most low tech, you know, glass jar, little syringe pump, you know, some, some tubing, you know, asked me, ask me to give my word that if there was a complication that I would not, and I needed to go to the hospital, that I would not say what I had been doing and who I had been doing it with. And to be perfectly honest, I don't even know. I mean, the one woman who was my volunteer, I have her full name. The other women, I have wracked my brain over the years, and I have no idea. I think there were three others. I don't know their names. I don't even know that I could approximate their ages. I think they were peers of my volunteer who was probably 15 years younger than myself. I mean, they were young. They were young women, and yet they were so confident that they could do this and that it should be done this way that I kind of, I bought in, you know, hook, line, and sink. I mean, I was in, and, you know, after I met with them and we set up our time, and then I told my husband about this, and he also, like, what must he have been thinking? Like, really? I mean, I say to him, you let me do this. Like, you know, what are you crazy? And we made up. You know, we would do it one evening after everybody's workday, and he would take our children out to the playground, and they would play, and, you know, they told him approximately how long it would take. We had no cell phones or anything, and this is what we did. And the most kind of. Oh, God, I don't even know how to describe what happened, but kind of mid procedure, and it was fine. I was on my bed. I mean, it was really fine. They were describing what they were doing, and it was just like, could it really be this simple? I mean, the visual of what they were doing when they described it to me, it was just like, oh, my God, piece of cake. And then when it was really happening, it was just like, really? But then the pump. The pump. I don't even remember. It broke. It broke. And so they had to stop and kind of. We're brainstorming what we can do. And my husband, I mean, it was the most fortuitous thing. He came in. He came up, he left the kids downstairs with a neighbor, and he came in just to see if I was still alive. I mean, I don't know, just to see how things were going. And they told him, you know, what had happened. I told him what had happened. He said, oh, my God, let me see what you had. And he's not a particularly, you know, handy kind of person. And he said, a bike pump. But he is a bike, bike rider. He said, a bike pump. I can rig something up. And he rigged up this bike. I mean, if you asked us to kind of replicate this now, I don't know that we could ever do it, but at the moment, he did something, and it worked. They finished the procedure. It was, you know, when they had me in advance, you know, drinking black cohosh tea, they had me doing things to kind of prep my body. And I'm not a great believer in herbology, but I figured if I was going to trust these women to do what they were going to do to me, I was going to take all of their advice like I was all in. So I did, and it was relatively simple. And then two days later, I still felt pregnant. And, you know, phoned the one woman I know, and I said, I know my body. I mean, that was. I mean, in all my experiences, I was so lucky because I knew I was pregnant. Like on as soon as it happened, I mean, I just, you know, I'm just in tune to my body. And I knew it. And, you know, I mean, they had said sometimes they don't get everything. And she said, you know, we'll go back in. And it was just like, okay. And they did. And it was gone. It was gone. So it was just kind of a wild. A wild ride. But it made me realize just how. How we rely on industry and the medicalization of everything. I mean, this was so. This was so basic and simple, and I also really appreciated the risk they were taking. And, you know, at that point in my life, I mean, I wasn't a big risk taker, but I, you know, I took risks. But, you know, I don't think, you know, until now, with the reversal of Roy, that we really think about what we're in for that I can fully appreciate. Like, these women going out on a limb like that. I mean, they wouldn't accept. They wouldn't accept money. I mean, they accepted. Thank you. Thank you. And I will never forget you. You who. I don't even know your names. So that was that experience. And then I was shortly after that. Oh, God, Gayle Gayle Gayle I got pregnant again and again, like really? Really. And there was a nurse I spoke to and who was a good friend in the hospital where I worked who said that they were doing up at Columbia Presbyterian, they were doing research, clinical trials on medicine, abortion, RU 486 at that point. And if I wanted to participate, she would connect me to the right people, which she did. And this was like a gazillion. I mean, I think my son was born a year later and he's just turned 26. So this was so many years later, so that we're still toying with this, you know.

[11:11] ISABELA GONZALEZ: How old were you?

[11:12] GAYLE RASKIN: How old was I? Let's see. I was 40 when he was born. So I was like 39. I was like 39.

[11:18] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Do you remember the year?

[11:20] GAYLE RASKIN: You know, I don't. And I actually was looking yesterday because I have the paperwork. I know I've seen it and I couldn't find it yesterday. I mean, I have the paperwork for this study, but it was, you know, it was, again, he's 26, so it was, you know, before, before that. And basically, you know, was, had to go in for. Because I think at this point, I think the medication, abortion, now they'll talk about doing up to twelve weeks. They were saying ten weeks for a while. I think at that point it might have been six weeks for the trial because I had to have an intrauterine sonogram and sign a lot of paperwork. And then bizarrely, it was really bizarre. I mean, go up and you couldn't be accompanied. And I don't know why you couldn't be accompanied because, you know, it was pre Covid. It was long before COVID And it would have just made so much sense. I mean, because basically you had to sit there in this room with. I don't remember. I remember a lot of other women, but it couldn't have been more than ten. Maybe it was like eight to ten of us. And we were all given the pill and had to stay there until we passed this whatever. It was very early, so was some. And they had to like check it in the toilet. And I remember I was like the third or fourth to go. And they started us early. I mean, I think we had to be there late afternoon so that they would get everyone out. I mean, that was kind of my anxiety that, like, really, I don't want to, like, three in the morning, have to go trek. My husband was home with the other kids. You had to have somebody signed on to pick you up. And my sister, who lives up on 100th street said, I'll come for you. And I said, you don't need to come. I'll be fine. I know, like, I was just always fine. I said, I'll just take the train home. I'll be fine. And I was, but I had to tell them that my, I hope they're not listening. I had to tell them that my sister was waiting downstairs in a cab for me, but I was out, I don't know, 910 o'clock at night. And that was like, you know, I think about all the support of the women coming to my home. This was the most cold, sterile, like, I don't know why we didn't talk. I guess people were just, I don't know what other people were feeling. I mean, I was just feeling like, this is crazy, crazy stuff. Like, we. Nobody talks to anybody else. I don't remember reading. I don't know what we did to pass the time. I remember really just sitting, like, you know, in a straight back chair in a room, like, trying not to make eye contact with other people. So, yeah, that was that experience.

[14:35] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Did you ever turn to anyone for support? It sounds like you're just a very independent person, given that you felt fine to ride the train after. I'm just wondering kind of who you turn to.

[14:53] GAYLE RASKIN: Oh, I had people to turn to. It's just logistics. Like the practical. Like, I wished I could have had my husband at my side, but, like, like, we weren't going to get a babysitter for the, you know, and that last experience, he couldn't even been there. And actually the other one at home, he couldn't have been there. So, I mean, he was there with me. I mean, my first abortion, I was young, my mom was there with me. So I never really hid it from people. I have to tell you later on in life, like, I think even at this point, I've been seeing the same gyn for years and I, I can't even remember. I say I had like two or three abortions. Like, I rarely tell people I had five because I feel like they would look at me like, what is wrong with you? And believe me, I sometimes ask myself that same question, but I did what I had to do. I mean, I wasn't an idiot. I just, you know, I just had some bad luck and just couldn't have. I can't even imagine, like, it would be like to have eight children now. So, you know, it's. But I always. I mean, I never. Although I felt. I did feel alone. I mean, it was happening to me. I mean, I had to deal with it. It was my body, and, you know, there's a lot of false information about there. It's like, oh, my God, am I ever gonna have. Be able to have children? You know, I mean, not serious, but it's always in the back of your head because you hear all this shit and you wonder if any amount of it is true, so. Yeah, but I never, you know, you feel, you know, I guess you could feel alone in a crowd of people, you know, like, there were always. There were people there, but it was kind of my cross to bear, and I. And I did it. And I did it.

[16:55] ISABELA GONZALEZ: What did you feel like you learned from those experiences?

[17:01] GAYLE RASKIN: What did I learn? Well, I hate to say, because maybe it's not such a great thing. I mean, I was brought up to believe that, like, that everything you get into, you can get out of. And I was actually telling a friend yesterday that when one of my kids, Washington, traveling through South America, you know, like 15 years ago or something, and I said, you know, just be careful because if you get in trouble there, we can't help you. And I was really thinking drug wise. But I mean, again, I just feel so lucky and so gifted that I was able to turn these experiences around that I had choice, because I just, honestly, I can't imagine, you know, being in this position and not being able to choose the outcome that I wanted because I am somebody who, I mean, I'd like to be in control. And, you know, it's interesting, while some of these. Some of the experiences, I felt completely out of control. But, you know, those are ones basically that were done in a more traditional way. The other one, I. The other ones I felt. I mean, even the medication, abortion, I mean, I felt like it wasn't being done. I felt like I was part of it. And actually, I was. That one I was very excited about because I really felt like it was groundbreaking. I felt, like, so excited to be part of this. I had no idea that it would take a gazillion years for it to go anywhere. And even, you know, even now, I don't know if it's where I thought it would be. Like, I never thought, like, my kids would be faced with these kinds of questions. I thought like it, you know, I mean, that they would be able to extra I mean, these women talked about really just not wanting to have periods, so just extracting your uterine lining every month, it's not a big deal. And, you know, for some people, it is a big deal, and it's not one that they want to see us ever be able to do for ourselves. And, you know, that's so unfortunate to me. And I think that that's what. But that's kind of my takeaway, that if you really want something to happen, I mean, you really need to figure out a way to make it happen for yourself, because there's not always going to be somebody there to guide you or do things in your best interest or even tell you that these things are possible. I mean, I was not a naive person, but when those women came over and it was just like, you do what? Like, really? How can that be? But, like, you know, they say you have to do it this other way. You know, so. Oh, my God. And, you know, whether I was naive for trusting that it, you know, but. And again, I'm very fortunate. Everything, everything kind of worked without a hitch, except it needed to be redone, which was not such a terrible thing. And I understood. I understood because they showed how something could be left behind, and you just go in and you remove it. I mean, it's not brain science. It was done with a bicycle pump and, like, a jar. It was really, really pretty, pretty simple.

[20:47] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Can you comment on just how you are physically now? I think you kind of touched on it, but you kind of hide how many abortions you've had have because of the stigma. And I just want you to talk more about.

[21:02] GAYLE RASKIN: I don't know what that is about, I swear to this day. And you know what? Sometimes I say to my husband, how many did I have? How many did I have ready? Like, I had that one. I had that one. I had that one. You know, I don't know, even with my own kids, you know, I'll mention this, or I'll mention that one of my daughters got pregnant a couple of years ago while she was living in Columbia and, you know, Colombia. She went to get confirmation for the pregnancy. And, you know, they were doing, oh, they were doing like, prenatal counseling for her. You know, she was 20 something years old. And I said, you get yourself on a plane. If you want to go back, you go back. But you come back here. You come back here. And she did. And now the I, and she had an abortion. But I mean, now the irony is, like, Columbia, you can get an abortion, and here you. Well, in New York you can, but, you know, in a lot of places. So it's just like, you know, how ironic is that?

[22:13] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Can you tell me the things you're proud that you were able to do and accomplish because you were able to have these abortions?

[22:24] GAYLE RASKIN: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. One, I'm so proud that I was able to negotiate having them. I mean, I remember one going to someplace in midtown for a blood test to confirm one, and it was, like, really seedy. I don't know. I mean, we didn't have Internet. I don't know how I found this. The back of the village Voice. I don't know where I found this place, but I had, like. It was like, a thousand degrees. I had to climb up all these steps. It was in this little cramped space, and I never was very good at giving blood, but I fainted. I mean, I don't think I'd lost complete consciousness, but I scared the shit out of myself and this poor woman. But what I did know is that I'm not coming back here. Like, this is just not. This is too kind of back alley ish for me. So kind of. I was proud that I kind of made those decisions, that I still wanted something that seemed relatively clean and safe and. Yeah. And I don't know what it is about how many. I just feel like, you know, you hear all that talk about using abortion as a means of birth control, and da da da da, and I know that's not what I did, but I also know that in the back of my mind, it was always, like, a plan b. Like, I knew that. Like, you know, this happens. This is what you do. And, you know, I had resources, and I was resourceful, and I could do that. So, you know, I feel, again, fortunate.

[24:23] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Nice. What would you consider to be the most and the least helpful throughout your experiences?

[24:36] GAYLE RASKIN: I think the most helpful is when people tell you, like, it's okay, it's okay, and it's doable, and it happens, and let's kind of figure out how to, you know, how to take care of it. I think that that's the most helpful, I think, you know, like, with everything else, I think the least helpful things people can do is to judge or, you know, to pity, to get angry at, you know, I remember, you know, my daughter, it was just like, oh. Like, I just wanted to do everything right for her and not like everything had been done right for me, but this, you know, I mean, we all know there's a right way and a wrong way, and it's just like, you know, come home. I'll take care of you. You know, this is, this is something we'll get through together. And I. And I think that that's really important that somebody know that there's someone on their side. And, you know, it's all. It's all very manageable and, you know, we survive and we move on. And that's why, like, the idea that we would be going back to a time when a lot of women didn't survive is just, again, this is so simple, it's so basic. If you just understand what the process is, what the procedure is, and what your body is capable of doing and, like, you know what it is that's being done. Like, why aren't we doing. Why are we. Why are we making such a fuss about this?

[26:27] ISABELA GONZALEZ: What did it mean for you to be able to give your daughter that support, having gone through the experience yourself?

[26:35] GAYLE RASKIN: Oh, it was, you know, it was great, but it was also. It was so natural. I mean, like, really, like, what am I. Of course I'm going to. Of course I'm going to support her. And actually, she did a medication. She was ten weeks, and she did a medication abortion which didn't work. And, I mean, my greatest regret is that I made her poor brother. I thought it would be as simple for her as it was for me. And so she was at our apartment, and I made my son be there with her. I was at work, like, doing backup phone stuff. And I should have been. I mean, I should have been there with her because she was cramping, you know, he was. Mom, she's really whining. And then the medication abortion didn't work and she needed to go in. And then there's a period of time where then you have to wait a couple of weeks because they needed to wait for a later stage to go in and do an actual extraction abortion, surgical abortion. So that was a little tough, especially since she didn't particularly want the medication abortion to begin with. And I really pushed for it because I just thought, what could be better? But maybe that wouldn't have been better for her. I mean, she liked to more have things done to her than to be a part of it. I mean, she appreciated the gesture, but I think, you know, so much for, like, letting, you know, young people manage their own lives and make their own decisions. Oh, my God, this is like nothing. This is like nothing. This will be. This is really good. Let's just get in on. Under. Under the wire, you know, and they thought it would work, but. But it didn't.

[28:31] ISABELA GONZALEZ: So, yeah, I mean, it's hard as a mom, too. You want to guide and feel like you have the best solutions, you know?

[28:40] GAYLE RASKIN: Right, right. And generally you do, don't you?

[28:43] ISABELA GONZALEZ: No, I don't have any kids, but I'm sure I'll feel that way if I ever do. Oh, can you kind of comment on that, too? Having children and then going through your abortion? Did you have an abortion prior to having kids?

[29:03] GAYLE RASKIN: Both prior and after.

[29:05] ISABELA GONZALEZ: And after. Can you speak on those experiences?

[29:08] GAYLE RASKIN: Yeah, you know, I think after you have kids, you have more of a realization of just kids and how wonderful they are. But I never. I never equated the two. I mean, I just, you know, now that my kids are older and I see how quickly it goes and how fascinating it is watching them grow and see who they are and how they make decisions. Da da da. You know, I sometimes say, oh, my God, had I known, I would have had a million, you know, but that's just talk. I wouldn't have done that. But, no, I don't know that it was all that. That different. I mean, it was. It was more. I never. It was more about me and what I could handle, and maybe that was a little selfish. I'm sure there's people who would think so. I didn't think so. I didn't think so. I mean, people have said to me, really? And then a year later, you were ready, and it was just like, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that simple. I wasn't. And then I was. And could you ask me to really explain what had changed? You know, it was different having a two and a four year old, which is when I had the two abortions, and having a four year old and a six year old when my son was born. Yeah, that made a major, major difference for me. So again, you know, more power to being able to really plan your family.

[30:51] ISABELA GONZALEZ: It's really refreshing the way you just talk about it so matter of factly. Can you kind of touch on where you came to have that perception? Was it there all along? I know. Just societally, there's just shame and stigma surrounding it. Not to say that you didn't experience it.

[31:13] GAYLE RASKIN: Right? I know. No, it so saddens me. It so saddens me. And it doesn't seem to lessen. It doesn't seem to decrease overdose. I mean, I see women now, you know, I know many women, you know, who kind of years later are beating themselves up for having had abortions, you know, and the men. The men don't beat themselves up for having impregnated? Yeah. I don't. I don't know. You know, I don't know. I just didn't. Again, I didn't see it as. I just didn't see it as such a problem. I mean, it just. I mean, anything with so simple a remedy. To me, I mean, we have too many kind of big things that, you know, don't have easy solutions. This, I feel like, is not such a big thing, and that we have simple solutions. So why are we making it into something bigger than it is? That's kind of my bottom line.

[32:30] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Yeah, I'm in total agreement. So we're coming up on time. I wanted to ask if you had any advice or any last things you wanted to preserve on the record.

[32:45] GAYLE RASKIN: Oh, I just. I mean, what I want preserved is just. I just hate what is happening now. And I know hate is a really strong word, and I try not to use it, but it just. It sickens me. It just sickens me that this right to choose might be taken away from, if not my children, my grandchildren, even if my children decide to. To have children, and I'm not. I mean, they're on the fence about that because of kind of the world in which we live, which I can appreciate. I would like to rather work to change the world in which we live than to bow out. But I can appreciate the fact, you know, that there's people who just, you know, don't want to continue if this is the path where we're going down.

[33:43] ISABELA GONZALEZ: 100%. Can you tell me the names of your children?

[33:49] GAYLE RASKIN: Hana, Kyla and Che. And Che. Two girls and a boy who are now 31, 30 and 26. Wonderful.

[34:01] ISABELA GONZALEZ: And are you still with your husband?

[34:03] GAYLE RASKIN: Yes.

[34:03] ISABELA GONZALEZ: What's his name?

[34:04] GAYLE RASKIN: Udo. He's German. And. Yeah. Yeah, no, 32 years. We actually. We got pregnant right after he moved here. So that's how I always remember that we've been married 32 years, because Hannah's 31 years old. I actually remember her birthday more than I remember kind of our anniversary. How many years we'd been. We've been married, but one kind of decides the other.

[34:37] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Oh, that's so sweet to be able to have him throughout all those experiences.

[34:42] GAYLE RASKIN: Oh, absolutely. Well, not throughout the early. The early ones were not his. The pre children were not his. I wish I'd had him through all. I mean, he's really very, very supportive, but also trusts me enough to. I mean, it wasn't easy for him to. To kind of back out in the way he had to during the one in our own home. When the women said, I mean, they didn't want, they didn't want to see a man. I mean, it was really, it was so interesting. And I just, you know, at that point, I wasn't going to push, but I wish, oh, my God, I wish he had been, you know, he had been there. But he was, I mean, he was there for the critical moment. He saved the day. He saved the day. How telling is that?

[35:33] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Right. All right, Gayle well, thank you so much for being here and allowing me to ask some questions and. Yeah.

[35:43] GAYLE RASKIN: Thank you. Well, thank you for being such a good listener.

[35:45] ISABELA GONZALEZ: Of course.