Harold Whitman, Helen Whitman, and Trudy Whitman

00:05 My name is Harold S Wittman. My age is 92. Today's date is July 19th, 2005.

00:17 The location is Grand Central terminal in New York City.

00:22 I have I am here with my wife and my daughter.

00:28 My name is Helen Whitman.

00:31 I am 83 years old today is I met before thank you. Today is July 17th know what did you say 19th and 18th 19th 2005 and I'm at Grand Central terminal in New York City and my relationship to my other interview is my husband and my daughter Trudy.

01:01 My name is Trudy Whitman. I'm 57 years old. It is July 19th 05. We are at Grand Central Terminal and I am here to with my mom and dad.

01:19 Okay. So this is take two in our last episode dad spoke primarily about growing up in Lower East Side living through the Depression and World War II. So we're going to go on to the married years now unless there's something that you wished you had gotten on tape last time there any stories that you wished that you had on record?

01:43 No, I don't think so except that I wanted to emphasize the effect of the depression on not Mesa much butter on your father because he went through very sad years from the age of 19 to leave us about 28 and they were Depression years and it from job to job and it was a bad time for him and he thinks about it very often and and Marvels of the fact that we have reached the plateau that we have what I remember you focusing on that and then I asked you to tell what what kept one of the things that kept you going with your sense of humor. So I asked you to incorporate some of those stories because the CD was just getting really depressing.

02:25 So we're going to go on to the married years. Now Mom. Why don't you tell us where and when you met how old's each of you were and what were your first impressions are reactions. Which other yes, I was going to NYU at the time and I remember we were in NYU downtown and three of my very close friend to watch with whom I'm still friendly met another classmate and she said to us. Wow, did I meet a wonderful guy and he has great friends and she turns to my friend Jeanette and she said Jeanette there just for you. I said say what about me? And she said, oh hell and then not your type. So that was it after that. We met at her wedding, right and you asked me.

03:19 To dance, but you were I wasn't the first one you asked to Dad's when I said here's a man sitting next to me.

03:25 At a wedding and he didn't he ask someone else to Dad's first and then I realized it was his friend's wife who he enjoyed dancing with and then he finally asked me to dance and that was it and how old were you should you?

03:40 I was just 28 so I went 20 and what did you do on your first date?

03:50 Well this married friend at a party and she asked Harold to invite me and which he did and that was our first date at the party. But then we met on the beach old ate the friends took of an apartment at the beach rather than going on a honeymoon. This was still depression is and they took his apartment at the beach and she and I were in her husband was sitting on the beach and Dad and a group of his cronies came along and we all stood up and I saw his eyes going up and down. I was in the bathing suit and then he asked me out.

04:31 I want you tell about the date we had right after Pearl Harbour when you want to check the Lucy Li.

04:38 Well by this time we were really boy and girl friend was getting a little serious and we Dad came from Brooklyn and I came from the Bronx. So we were medic meeting but the town and one of my very close friends one of the three women who was at the NYU with the time was going to get married and was just a small family wedding and she was I had to see what you look like before she got married to on the way down to meet him at the hotel after I stopped to see Lucy and so how she looked in her wedding dress, which was it just a plain little Street dressed as a matter of fact and then went on to the hotel asked if okay you can take it from there.

05:26 So I'm waiting we were due to meet at 7.

05:31 It's 7:15 7:20 and you have no idea what the lobby of the hotel as to look like. This is as I said right after Pearl Harbor it was a madhouse men were going into the service that was meeting that we're going out a lot of commotion the lot of people greet each other.

05:49 And you can hardly but your way through the crowd. I figured maybe she's lost In This Crowd. I can't say her. I kept circling around.

05:58 And I couldn't call my mother and say that Ellen had shown up. She do worried sick. So I stuck around stuck around and she shows up 1 hour late.

06:09 And I said what happened to you?

06:13 She related that you went to check out a friend.

06:18 Friend's wedding dress and that was the excuse and I was suddenly it was almost the end of the relationship. You wouldn't have been born.

06:29 Relationship went down the tubes always late as far as I remember and booty burning the roast after she wouldn't have done it anyway, but I remember running the roast almost everything's giving

06:46 So I talked about deciding to get married and how how long a. Between your meeting and deciding to get married setting the date and then the trouble that ensued dad with some your commanding officer when you were trying to well with this was Pearl Harbor when we met and in 1940 1941 41 and we were married in 43. So what was the. Of time and dad went into the army? And what was the date more than 42 42 Soul we were dating until

07:34 He went into the army and then he went into the army and we responded naturally and saw one another during her every for a love that he had and then once for all Harry came from odesza, Arizona desert diesel you sure you want that and I said, yes, I do. So we married we arrange for our wedding with in until I'm certain I can get a pass. I've got a sadistic captain and I have to make sure I can get a pass before you arrange a wedding. So I went back to camp and I approach this captain and I said Captain it's up to you.

08:26 If you say yes, you guarantee me to pass I'm getting married and I sort of exaggerated the situation I said because of the war that money has to be put up front no refund. So please be sure if you say you're going to give me a pass I get that test if you say no no matter if it's in your hand, I thought I'd flattering that way. He says well, we're all going out to the rifle range if you shoot expert which is the best. It's Marksman Sharpshooter expert then you can have the Pass of All I never shot expert before he says well, let's leave it at that.

09:04 So I figured while I do my bestie can't hold me up. Even if I make shop show to whatever and I tried my very best. I did have very good eyes and I did shoot expert so I come down for my past this Friday night and give me some special Jody and I said Captain. Okay, I'm ready for my pasty says I can't give it to you. I said why not you promised it to me. He said well, I need you around here. Everybody's running around with passes because we're going overseas. I suppose you gave me your word of honour and the wedding is on and I told you this is no refunds on this wedding.

09:43 I can't help but you can't have the past.

09:45 So I said well there's only one thing I can do. He said what do you mean? You can't go over the hill? That means I'm going a wol. We're on alert. That's a serious offense. I said no. I understand that and I know it's going a wol. What are you going to do? I'm going to see Colonel Hamilton and his guts. I said all of us.

10:10 He said what are you going to tell him? I'm going to tell him you gave me worried about how I'm going to tell him the whole story and see what he says. He said wait a minute. Let's talk to a solvent that did the trick PS. I got the past and run to make the last bus out of town. So that was the story of the wedding wedding dress bridal gown and what's your father made for me? And Anna was a catered a wet wedding and I was not the kind I would dream about but it was v c wedding. Oh we can get a room in any hotel any hotel and my brother's brother-in-law on the bar and grill on 47th Street, which was called sin Street at that time was loaded with prostitutes. He had a room at a bar on that street and he had a room at the hotel Edison which he gave to us, but I am being a naive little twenty-year-old.

11:09 22 years old I guess by that time again for a God how many people did Joey give this key to who was going to walk in on us on my wedding night and everything worked out? Well though and we were married on a 24-hour pass and then I went back to Indiantown Gap just for the long week because I wanted to keep my job is very difficult to get a job at the end of the week. I took a week off and I worked as a dietitian for the New York City Board of Education running a school lunch program and we went back.

11:47 To Indiantown Gap I couldn't get a a room again.

11:51 Cost of the camp. I had to take a room outside of the area and I had to get up at 5 in the morning.

11:59 If you got a ride to get to make Camping Time.

12:05 So that was a honeymoon. It would not make Brides magazine. And how long after the honeymoon were you shipped overseas Den?

12:18 43 and we stuck around until January or 40 or 44 January 44 dad's was an infantry division and he was it was the 77th division which was the very active division during the war. But at that time he was in the Intelligence Division and his life was saved because he was made company commit a company clerk because he could both type and spell and there weren't any people around at that time, both type and spell and cells would have pulled me out of Orion our intelligence and reconnaissance and gave me this job against my will

13:05 And the first sergeant said was giving birth giving me the artist that nobody I've got all mechanics drivers cheap drive. His truck drivers, does electricians that I need we have nobody can type and right that's the job and it's a note of your have no choice. So that was a

13:34 So Mom, once you describe what it was like living in New York and waiting for letters and information first of all while he was in the city and I work for the Board of Education we would have three day weekends because if they were happy holiday would come in the middle of the week. They would pass it on to the weekend so that they didn't have to open the schools and I hate the schools. So every three day weekend your Grandpa would take my suitcase take me to Allen Grand Central. I would take a train to wherever that wasn't have the Sprint three-day weekend with him and go back on Monday or whatever the day was and go back to work. Now. What are we doing? We're all in the same boat and we waited waited for letters week so he couldn't get a room and you couldn't get any Linens or as part of my suitcase would be Linens to take down with us 411 we have

14:34 Against regulations one weekend. We had a room in a converted school house with the Lord was their Tots in the room. Just too. I had fortunately and the truck was still on the wall and the Rostrum was still in the front of the room and that's the way we we ever had fun with it, but it was fine with it. But as I say it home fortunately or unfortunately dad was in the 77th division, which was the New York Division and the New York Times played up that division because the box was the publisher of and had been in the 77th during World War 1. He was the publisher and owner.

15:26 And so he said they played up to 77 Division and I was able to follow them as a matter of fact when Ernie Pyle who was a well-known turn down. The list was killed. He happened to be with dads commanding officer and I picked it up in the New York Times so I know exactly where he was. Other than that. I was not in a way I couldn't know where he was until he's being situation was all but Daddy was on Guam and Leyte and Okinawa and his was the first invade occupation troops of Japan people if they wanted to send in seasoned troops. So he was in the first occupation troops to Japan how he got the broadest when you type with active duty

16:24 And what you had you had so many friends in the same situation. So there was a lot of camaraderie and and for a while I did see some of the women whose whose husbands were in the house when we meet New York to go to the theater room Southwest. Okay. So the war ends dad comes home what happens next. I know you let live with grandparents so I can find an apartment. I'll be at work too hard and really Daddy doesn't make you very much money and your grandma and grandpa made life very easy for us. Like we had a big apartment. We had two bedrooms one for you after you were born in one for us. We say big apartment, but you slept in the dining room Grandma and Grandpa converted the dining room to a bedroom. We we have the two bedrooms.

17:18 Wear on bedroom and the best cook in the world. That was Grandma and she was wonderful with us. She she

17:30 Absolutely out. If you were born in 47. He came home. When did you come home? 4430 44 45 or 44 and you're born in 47 and I was still working and dad was trying to find

17:48 His place in the business world

17:51 I thought I don't know what.

17:55 Affected us. Because we didn't even think of taking advantage of the GI bill at that time. I don't know why College completed long before World War II and I have almost 4 years of free education coming to me and I was floundering.

18:17 And I was foolhardy I didn't take advantage of it and come up with a decent profession. Well, I think your profession was decent. But what would you have done? Do you think you would have been a professor or know? I was good at math. I could have gone into a counting law below Lord students of all graduates were starving to death during the Depression. I was interested in Psychology in business.

18:46 Hello, the areas that I could have gone further and I are actually bad you were held by this time. I was 32 32 and it was so you started a family. I wondered between the depression in the war. There were so many years of insecurity did either of you ever questioned whether or not you want to children and I don't know we never did this is very important to us to have children and

19:28 Well, I had a profession I was a dietitian and

19:34 It was it's just not I didn't think about it and I thought them for eventually I would go back to working as a dietitian. And then that would be that and the years after the war were rough years because Dad work for a friend in the retail business and it didn't work out. Well, it works out. Let me know I love them and leave but it was a waste of time and really and then he work for been in the wholesale business and finally hair Alessa called him and said look and they had been discussing this for many years as a little do for you to that Mom. I just want to have one Parenthood question that I always think about I wondered about this dead. Do you ever think about how different it is? It was to be a father in your generation. Then it is an hour's how much more fathers are in.

20:34 How did the lives of their children now do you ever think about that what I mean? I would never occur to you to change a diaper prepare baby food or the first of all, my mother was there for three years he was there and as matter fact in the middle of the night dad and I decided that we would get up at all tonight. Well when I got up I took care of the baby and then when Dad got up Grandma was there and she said you go to sleep. So she called grandma said where we going I said, I'm going to the hospital right now. And she said no you go back to sleep. I'll go that's the kind of lady was there all the time and

21:26 What else do we sell Cobalt for that? Anyway, Trudy was born and everything was fine. I stopped working. We still live there with Grandma and Grandpa. And finally we have we bought on how to buy an apartment ostensibly. We bought the company on the floor because it was illegal to sell an apartment. So they would sell your furniture or the cop fatally was a bribe and

21:57 But we didn't get the apartment until after David was girl. So was David I had been in bed for a month before he came and then he was delivered by cesarean and then we left Grandma's place and moved into an apartment. So there I was with a new baby and I was a child and apartment cooking cleaning Etc. And if they worth of ever ever a case of pop postpartum depression syndrome I had at that time so I had lost all my phone, 789 I need in business.

22:50 For himself, and it was a rough time, but we got through it.

22:58 Okay, so let's talk about that. You started a little bit on this topic on the Genesis of Leslie Whitman and talk a little bit about the store how long you were in partnership with Harold lasek, maybe throw in a gel V story or two. We have to throw in a grandma story also, okay European accent and will This was later on when David was already in Camp and and he came home from camp and he and he was coming home from camp. And you said to Mom Grandma you want to be on David cuz I talk about what's happening with the baseball cap. Give me the year here thing going on between Rodger Maris and Mickey Mantle.

23:50 Who would get the most home runs before steroids through the door Grandma? You'll say hello, dear. How do you like that? Homerun Battle between Rodger Maris and Mickey Mantle. Just think of the two last names Maris and mantle can you remember those two words Maris and mantle she says if I not Morris and Manvel

24:22 And that was Grandma then when Ellen was born old another Grandma's story when Ellen was born to call Ellen and on the other side of the family that had a boy who is called Alan. Well Grandma couldn't hear the difference. So she said to me I don't want the children to laugh at me. How do you say it? So I said look mama. The girl is Ellen. The boy is Alan. The girl is Ellen. The boy is out of her. She said the boy you say louder.

24:49 And that was Grandma's, you know what you was saying, so it wasn't it wasn't as though she didn't realize what she was saying Okay, so let's go to the shop.

25:00 So how old are you how old was disgusted with his job and I was disgusted with this thing with Ben and we decided to open dementia. We both work for competing stores and went home on the train to the Bronx from Westchester. So today is come to go in a business. We didn't have much money. We had didn't have a bank account with no Financial background and we want to run to the banks to look for loans, and I said forget it. You have no history and you have no money no loans.

25:35 So we decided to scrounge whatever we could I had $2,500, which I save during the war most of it from playing poker.

25:46 Which I sent home I saved it before I sent you the money and there was also an allotment for a wife so that one in the bank Howell scrounge up a couple thousand and we decided to do it and I don't nobody wants to rent the store to us. You can have no background. Who are you to rent Astoria Financial background at all? No history.

26:11 So we left the name with one agent in East Orange, New Jersey and we said well take on I'm just in case something happens.

26:21 So amazingly he called one day and he said there's a store open at the moment. Nobody wants it will hold it to you come on down and talk to us. So we did we went down and talked talked to him and he gave us the store. Now. The question was getting merchandize. The pipelines were still empty because they were full of military goods. Hello the manufacturers.

26:48 Had trouble filling orders and I would taking care of their favorite department stores and change those we went around begging for goods can't give you any have no Financial background. You have no history merchandises Titan, we begged and got a little merchandise and second-rate stuff against State very small competition right across the street. There was three department stores and treatment shops right Officer dies, but we decided to go for it anyway.

27:19 And it was tough because we didn't have the goods but we kept smiling and one people up and amazingly we hung up on.

27:30 And

27:32 After a couple years we were able to get some good lines and a business was pretty good until the streets erupted.

27:43 Time of the Civil Rights Revolution campus Revolution women's lib gay-rights all these things affected. This said he's been a lot of racial riots that gay rights were not playing a large part of that time.

28:03 We had army tanks patrolling our streets.

28:07 And we were only six miles from Newark at the time.

28:11 But despite that we hung up on one then we decided to remodel the store despite. The fact that shopping malls are opening all around that was a trend of the times lot of stores are closing in going to the mall as we decide to stay.

28:28 I remodel the store.

28:31 It cost more than we had anticipated and we told her this I know you're spending too much money, and he said don't worry about it. Every Star design double does volume within five years 20% code each year for 5 years. You will double your volume. Downing Street. I don't care sure enough important. We double our volume is five years without having any overhead and we really began to make money of those were the best years that we had. But at that time we decided to buy a house right before the remodel on this job. And so I have never lived in a private home before I've always lived in the apartment. When why do you look for in a private home when we bought a house that was being built for us and the development and dad was turning and twisting at night thinking about the shop and I was turning and twisting at night thinking about the house.

29:27 And we moved into a house. You were eight years old and David was 407 David was for that's right the street and it was beyond my dreams beautiful home. I mean three bedroom split level house, which is very ordinary today, but it was a to us. It was just a beautiful play against buying it at the time.

29:54 I love Taking Chances. Remember, I was doing $125 a week at that time. Let me show you how you can doing. I said, okay, you show me I need play with numbers and show me how I can do it. Well business fortunately was good. And we double at 2:50 and that was enough shortly. After that. We doubled at the 500 that was enough. But that was Eddie story. I could do it on I'm 25 and I needed four times as much to make it. So that was fortunate. So that's it. That's the history of the year. Do you want some you and Maria said

30:37 Stories that took place with LV consists of the age of 9 only had three as of education and that Lee Had a Heart of Gold, but had a very Gruff matter about him.

31:01 And we would Buzz him. We had a buzzer system when we wanted them to come out to fit a customer.

31:08 So what happened this particular night of a young middle-aged?

31:16 Black couple came in and I recognized they were not regular customers and I put the woman I said, may I help you? She says we're from out of town. We have friends here. My friend said you'll have a terrific tell when I got a problem with my husband and I find it difficult to buy clothes for him. I said, what's the problem now? She says without making it obvious stand in front of them and see the way he's

31:41 This was kind of a funny question. So I without making it obvious. I got in front of the man who was looking at the clothing and I realize that he had this huge bulge.

31:53 And she says well you saw what I'm talking about. Is there anything you would tell if I can do the camouflaging?

32:01 I just let me go talk to him. So I didn't buy them. I went in the back explain the situation I said Kelly was his name don't make it obvious just take a look. And if you think you can do something the camouflage hat find a man will buy a soda. If you don't think you can do it, forget it we don't want to put you up at 7, then it won't it won't fit properly. He's all right. Let me go take a look. So he gets out in the store was busy. You get some friends that man looks on both sides and looks down at his crotch and he says move that thing to the other side.

32:38 Anyway, did he buy the suit, so I said that we can you do something says yes, I'll try to use I'll build a pocket inside and icicle how would he get it at the pocket aces like your stuff is so it says

33:00 The best I could do so sure enough. So that was the end of that story.

33:13 And we can tell the story about David once he was home from college about how we looked and looked and how we dressed. We main campus Revolution at taking place in the kids were trapped were wearing jackets. That was the look. That was a Chic look, so he went to the University of Maryland. He would take it on vacation time Christmas time Thanksgiving take the train up to Newark then take the bus up to Eastern Community shop get my car keys and then drive home to Livingston.

33:55 So this way I had my back to the store. It was just before Christmas to the to the door and a young man working for us to get a load of this hippie coming through the door. So I turn around. It's my son seedy-looking and I said that happens to be my son. Let me see what time he's wearing this beat up jacket zipper to on a rusty safety pin through it. That was the look and I said David you're freezing to death. I've got all these jackets hanging you take a jacket. He says bad. I can't wear anything new. I just can't do it. This is the way I have to dress and I was the situation at the time I have to tell you that we have two children. I made it really have never given us any any problem Through The Years in this is nice to be able to say this because they both

34:55 Are involved in the campus Revolution and it was just very nice. You can tell the story about David coming or going on his trip cross-country.

35:09 You want to hear that? Yeah, we going with a friend and they will reach going to take I forget how much money was $1,000 for 6 months Boy for 6 months with $1,000. They were going to charge gas. But I said, you've got the food drink Park entrances entertainment of some kind incidentals you talkin about 30 or 40 hours a week. Can I get he says my friend can't afford to take any more. So I don't want to take any more as well take $300 of my money that was in David's car throwing a shoe box in the back of the trunk and just use it in case of an emergency.

35:52 So he said credit cards for credit cards. He says well, I can't do that and I just won't do it. But okay, so things went along he would call and regulate everything was fine. They never pay for lodging that was sleeping campuses camps where they knew somebody but they never pay for a nice lodgings. I know they were able to get the buy toward the end. He calls one idea was call late at night. I got a problem what happened transmission went I'm in Oregon and

36:25 I checked in with the mechanic. He said the $200 you can fix it. But I hope we haven't got any money left just enough to get home. So I suppose you want me to check with the bank next door wire some money to that bank. And then I'll pick it up. I go to my bank give them the name of the bank and arguing and she said that's fine. That's what we call the corresponding Bank we do business. I gave her the $200 and go back to the shop and I will later I get a call from the bank in Oregon. Mr. Whitman. This is a young man here is go to

37:01 Draft made out to Harold Whitman from David Whitman. They reverse it and we can't get in the money Isis. It's it's my son that some mistake giving the money. It's fine. She says you'll have to describe them. I said, I haven't seen him in six months but skinny, sloppy and Sadie. She said that's him. So I said really I haven't seen him for 6 months. Why does he look like she said just like you said,

37:29 Well, this is then we're going to go to few minutes left now. I just wanted to ask you quickly. You were one of the few women in our neighborhood who worked. Yes was your decision to go back based on economics or personal fulfillment or rather a personal fulfillment. I was a job first of all that fell in my lap. And as a result, I decided Well guess I'll have it didn't have a teaching certificate, but the teaching job was offered to me. This isn't how to make a note in home economics. And so I went back I went took a job in East Orange and then the teacher came back and

38:08 That was up from the principal of the school in Livingston. That was just opening called me and said that he had a recommendation. Could I would I be interested in working full-time which I did and I'm 21 years and supposedly I started the department. It was a brand new school. They didn't have as a teaching aide or a book and I started the department and it worked out very well. It was a good job. I started a 2020 $200 a year believe it or not and after 21 years. I made a big sum of

38:47 $2,400 a year

38:51 24001 - $24,000 a year and economics not mathematics and that was it but I have to say that we've been married for 61 years and it's been a wonderful experience. Your father is by far the nicest man in the world.

39:13 And this time you're going to cry. Great children and grandchildren are Beyond description. Naturally. I sound like a typical Grandma, but this is true. And that's it. Okay. Well, we're going to have to come back for Take 3 since we didn't even get to the grandchildren yet. We have to talk about all them, but they would just just great grandchildren. And do you have anything to say That's the basis of a good marriage been a wonderful time and I I have to be I'm very happy and thankful.