George-Henry Hastie and Susan Trotz

00:01 My name is george-henry Hastie. I'm 51 years old. Today is Tuesday, February 2nd 2021.

00:10 I'm located in Jamaica Plain, Boston, Massachusetts, and I am a queer feminist and also a transgender man and my conversation partner is Susan trotz who's one of my oldest dearest friends and collaborators. Awesome. Hello. My name is Susan trotz. I'm 63 years old. Today's date is Tuesday, February 2nd 2021. I'm calling in from Jamaica Plain Boston, Massachusetts identify as a lesbian feminist queer woman and the name of my conversation partner is george-henry Hastie and we have been long dear friends may be 25 to 30 years.

00:58 Self George Henry like a blast to go down through Memory Lane about starting Boston Dyke March. I thought maybe we could start by talking about how the Dyke March came about and as queer feminist personally why it was important to each of us. You want to start crate. So yes, as soon as I remember meeting you in the early 90s when I was part of whack the Boston whack the women's Action Coalition, which is a multi issue feminist direct action group in Boston, and you came to visit our meeting as a representative of our two and two rights Network and the overtime. We actually joined together with Sarah shreves our friend who is part of the Boston lesbian Avengers and waste I remember starting a group called Gap girls action brunch and we got together as a way to have good food and good conversation and collaborate among different a feminist activist groups.

01:57 Yeah, totally so and you know a little back history for me even being involved in our to enter the Reproductive Rights Network national network was going even further back in 1987. I met my girlfriend my partner of Life organizing the March on Washington and in 1993. There was another March on Washington and that was the first time I do I thought I think I remember you said used to sew on the Dyke March were marching in gay pride. Absolutely. So I also went to the 1993 March on Washington at a time. It was gay lesbian bisexual rights and it was before the tea or transgender was included and I really went also then as a newly diagnosed hiv-positive and the time young woman and I had actually started as an AIDS activist and specifically focused on women's issues which were very neglected.

02:57 1992 I joined act up and that was my first activist experience. That kind of led me into feminist activism in Boston and finding women's Community member told us now. So that was part of my connection in collaboration possibly with you early on is that as a member of R22? I was also a member of a cup. And so with the connections in solidarity has to be used to call it back then stead of intersectionality today. We were working on all the issues that were important to women and people of color and working-class folks and working on issues of poverty. And I think we made that connected back then to absolutely right. I think I mean yes poverty lack of health insurance working in collaboration with like, you know, cross classes in terms of focusing on like the welfare reform and issues of in a

03:57 Quality around a lot of these issues. Yeah from Healthcare education, you know queer youth being kicked out of their houses lack of attention need a women being really second-class citizens. I mean also, I know we can act like I in terms of actors around sexual violence against women. I'm a rape Survivor. And so also do you know raising awareness around those issues for folks and I pick you up some mention the issue of domestic violence and why is that a shelter for a very long time myself? Probably got my political chops there with hanging out with women who were fleeing so bravely from their abusers but making those connections with so many other issues to and

04:45 I don't know if we can go up to the already 1994 riots in 1994. There was a horrible Clinic shooting of a healthcare providers and as a Reproductive Rights activists. That's when I think they were the call between wac women's Action Coalition lesbian Avengers and R22 to come together. And that is where are famous short-lived group called gab girls action brunch got together. That's right. And then we really started talking about we turned that way at all attended different type marches in other cities and I think Sarah might have attended the one in New York City and so we were got to talking about let's we should have a dyke March in Boston New York at the at the Dyke March and I just can't remember if I was the one in New York or not.

05:45 Years ago I was at the Dyke March in New York again, and I brought my 89 year-old mother with me and she was on Dyke's for bikes at the head of the parade two years ago. So it was that was just so awesome to be there again to think we had some heart and all that happen it I digress absolutely. I know he won against the beginning but I am getting the Divergent but I want to see also my mother videotaped my mother came and videotapes the Dyke March in the beginning and end went along the Route with another organizers mother and they were really close friends would study video production with Cambridge Cambridge Public Access TV, and it was really exciting because there was so much more stigma around being lesbian back then in like 1995 when we started the Dyke March and it was like people felt so supported that my mother and this other mother were there and they were like, hey, you know, they just felt it was really that was really lovely part of it like having a to Mom's there to support us.

06:45 And I thought we might want to talk about how we actually organized in 2021. There's an internet back then there was not you want to talk about logistics about even got it together or organizations headphone trees called each other. We also would like create whoever had a printer at their house if they did or we go to Kinko's and make posters and print them up and then we use what's called wheat paste and put them up sometimes around on telephone poles. I wish we weren't supposed to do and then also just post flyers in women's bookstores that we used to have and Cafe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I think back on it amazing the technology we did not have how many people still were able to find out about we also had our newspapers like newspaper newspaper.

07:45 There was the Boston Phoenix Wright and sometimes the Boston sometimes mainstream newspaper even covered us sometimes positively and sometimes but it's just amazing to me now that there was so much ability to get information to people even the time when we had no internet to do that and we are really motivated in the beginning because we had felt this was 1995 that when it when Boston try this is a big celebration. Well really it started as a political March and April will write had bags over their faces because of the stigma and you know fears about being outed but by night and maybe just a little bit more about the history Susan but in 1995, we had felt that the big Boston prot Gabe gay.

08:45 Lesbian Pride had gotten very corporate in terms of corporate sponsors. You've been really had lost a lot of the Grassroots big political energy and focus and we thought we wanted to have like a women's March that really was focusing on a lot of the issues. You know, we've been talking about that one really core to people's lives. Yes. I think that the issue of why the Dyke March started was not only the celebration of women centered lesbian identity. But also in Passionate reaction to some more assimilation politics of Pride celebrations that money talk when he was brought in to pry to have bigger and bigger marches and it sort of became it seemed to me that it was a March of Corporations. Wanted to see rather than what the glbt community wanted to see and do

09:45 Lesbians wanted to see because it was very male-dominated. Yes, and we were we didn't want to assimilate we really were focused on I remember one at like I would make up a lot of stickers in collaboration with a lot of women and like one of the stickers we had was not the church not the state marriage doesn't legitimate and its way before we had same-sex marriage, but we were really in the like we're Community really focused on these issues of Europe poverty Reproductive Rights Healthcare anti domestic violence, you know, we're use economic issues and not about like getting married that mean not that we didn't want the ability to get married, but we just that's not where our energy was. It's really interesting because

10:31 Then that really did the focus on same-sex marriage lie kind of took over as Center energy for gay rights in the country. But this is before that exactly how much more conservative effort to be just like straight rather than to show our wonderful community in its full regalia. And that's exactly the next thing. I think we want to talk about it that they were a lot of political issues that we make connections and about but we also wanted to celebrate our sexuality and have fun. It was your place that we could you know, put out our chance maker stickers do our poster making me people there was just it was it was a organizing and coming together of our community of Celebration and making it making connections with politics also had a lot of Life Women's I'm like musical groups that wrote their women and different groups that would

11:31 Come and be part of it. Remember our security guard security was on Rollerblades, right? Cuz we did not have walkie talkies in those days. So take communicate with each other. We had to roll back and forth along the whole route with different people who can run or rollerblade quicker to make sure that everybody was safe along the Route and we also had legal observers and we never we had lawyers that were volunteered that were part of our community to help us keep us safe because we were worried about like interaction from that. You know, how it would be taken in on our route and we had like bright peacekeepers who are trained. I mean, it was very well organized from a standpoint of like keeping the March going keeping us safe understanding what are goals were keeping communication going to want to talk about some of the chance in Plymouth.

12:31 The old one the women United will never be defeated with parents who need us, sir. Austin's he has to know that we will not be defeated no matter what as long as we stay together, but some of them lesbians United Healthcare Act. That is all right. We're here we're sweet. Thanks got the street bikes were strong and powerful were pissed off. And also, I mean we had some going to we had some stuff going on that we would ever getting together and go to Susan's I mean, I'm Sarah's house because she had a printer and I would go out and buy crack and peel which is sticker paper in like bright neon colors and then go to Sarah's house. It was a whole afternoon of making stickers and cutting them up and I remember my favorite one was fatter than Barbie butcher than kin, and we also would have one so really a lot to identify three like Asian Dyke.

13:31 Dyke older died baby Dyke like two different slogans and things that people could serve take on that were fun. Exactly and I think you know in the making of both the chance and of stickers it really had us to come closer cuz we all got to talk about why we would want a certain chant or why we would also want a certain sticker or that if we hadn't thought that oh, yes disability Dyke, maybe somebody might not had a awareness about that. It made all of us more aware about all of our issues. So it was but it really learn about each other also, absolutely and I know the end of 3rd, I know we're going to go back and talk about the second thing under the third side Mark 3 focused on Healthcare access. And that was we had a huge like all kinds of healthcare issues. We had sign-making party to be able to really talk about access to healthcare.

14:25 Many in a Reproductive Rights, but also just access to basic Health Care Health Insurance, you know lesbian like culturally competent like healthcare weren't doing that anymore and let you know existed and people were talking about their bodies, but they weren't looking again at their bodies. We really want to talk about where is slightly different Generations. This is like I was 26 the time we started the Dyke March. I don't know don't make me do the math right now. I was but that was also really part of our generational. You're right. You're right there.

15:25 I'm not why I came out as a trans man 7 years ago in a fern being male, but I time identified at me as a feminist lesbian and we were not transfer. We really came out of a history of some like former lesbian separatist and not being trans friendly not being mailed from it really was the marsh was at the time only for women and we were not trans friendly and it overtime got much clusive and actually the organisers after our first I think 7 years of us. Some of us would really be in the spirit that it in the beginning a new generation kind of came on who wear it like a Trans Am and trans man who are a couple and they were really active in like meeting it up and it really be coming over time much more inclusive and the Dyke March has incredibly inclusive. Yeah, I would hope to think that the beginnings were a beginning of evolving to

16:25 Getting better every year each other about what it means to be the it'll create a world in which we all can access the most everything. We wanted access to pay for the pride committee, like really all over the place would also part of what happened with the 2nd of March. Yeah. No, I think that's so it's really true. Do we want to talk about that scene 96 second or 2nd Dyke March second Dyke Market in the in solidarity with John Lewis. We made some good trouble.

17:09 Ella is that I think we all should be proud proud of making good trouble and he coined it in a fantastic way and I'm proud to be part of anything that causes good trouble and I think one of our one that was Infamous in our circles was bed gate you want to talk a little about Ben Kate. Yes, it came up in one of the meetings that it would be great to have a bed. I think I think this is it right that they had had a bad at maybe the New York great bed in the Dyke March in New York 1994 huge women on you no fooling around on the expression of sexuality wait until we're the guys were, you know, gyrating on a float for one of the bars and we thought we'll let's do something similarly, you know with women in the Dyke March and have a bed and we had so women on the morning of the Dyke March put Saturday Saturday morning put together a rolling bed, and there were women that pushed the bed and went

18:09 Boylston Street in Boston, I was actually on the bed with my girlfriend for part of the Dyke March. It was so much fun. People took turns on the bed and it was like just really fun and playful and it was actually a celebration of our sexuality and we had a Polly had no issues with the bed in the Dyke March at all whatsoever. We made sure that we had women like around us so that I know guys, you know did anything if they were on the street, but we had no problems with it within the Dyke March at all and historically and cried there as you said they were bars of men gyrating with wine glass that has gone on forever and that's you know, whenever you liked it or didn't like it. It was just part of the history for what happened to me and so this but yeah feeling like this is our space to claim women's sexuality.

19:09 Duality not that that's not sexuality chart rating on a bar, but also that the way to really fight you no discrimination and new anti-gay by us is by confronting ending like we're going to celebrate who we are. We're going to celebrate openly our sexuality and that's how we get to the root of where the issues are the Shane the stigma on the lack of Rights. Then it's like we're going to celebrate our sexuality and show it and this is a healthy thing. And I do remember that was one little bit of our hold right? I parked signs always as Union winning hundreds of women. That was just one little thing New York and done it be like the following New York Sometimes they come up with good ideas. But so we did that and then our Dyke March and it

20:05 And that's how it we had organised it to end and then there was a subgroup of women who are part of the diver cartoon has the committee that it decided on their own so not all of us knew this was going to happen decide to break into the beginning of Boston Pride without a registration fee and just continue on with the bed into pride and I think I talked about whether we would pay for Friday. I think we all agreed none of us would never pay for price to enter that that that was not nice and so people at that point could choose whether they wanted to go into Pride at the time and get individuals and have to pay for private organizations did and we still thought that was wrong cuz we thought it was fairly exclusive and not really welcoming to our whole community of having a political economy.

21:05 Right, will that happen to be the year that the theme was family pride? And the first it was the first time ever that Boston's mare lead the pride parade went ahead and ordered and didn't have any games openly gay children, either back then and also the pool Boston police. So the March is being led by the mayor of Boston and Boston police will see in Boston of family Pride make us

21:38 Go ahead and do the bed actually a subset of women brought the bed into pride and again different women were on the bed Stu Pride the primarch which is much larger and has thousands and thousands of people watching of all ages and some of us realize that it was happening and saw that Pride was trying to stop them from entering fry.

22:00 And so I think that was about to might not have known it was happening or like oh no no, no people want to go into Pride. You are not stopping some political lesbian dykes from entering Pride, if you know who want to celebrate what we're all here to celebrate which is our Liberation. So we made an effort to make sure that that got in

22:24 And then subsequently afterwards right. There was a first-timer there was there was an article in the Boston Herald that absolutely was horrible just like perverts on the bed like it was incredibly just horrible like just totally negative condemnation religious condemnation from the mayor from the police department call IRS.

22:54 For lewd and lascivious Behavior, even though even afterwards I admit that taking off your shirt and pride are taking off your shirt was not arrested Bull and you know, maybe we might have expected it to happen from those conventional church and state officials, but I think it was really a firming that went ride also turned and made public comments against this. It's the reason why we knew the reason why we were starting the type March. Yeah. It was very painful. There was a big community meeting and a lot of members of the community were there and I know we had support but I remember just feeling very disillusioned upset that so many members of our community spoke out against us including some gay men who I knew who actually had made some money off gay phone sex lines and later made a lot of money on apps for gay dating apps who called who spoke out against the bed.

23:54 Which I thought was terrifically hypocritical to be you know, men celebrating gay male sexuality and then to be condemning women on a bed. We're celebrating our sexuality like in a public celebratory way in a really healthy way. It was I just I was that was very devastating to me to have you seen that coming out of the community. I know we have talked a little about this is that in for me. It was an affirmation about why it was so important to keep politics in our celebration that when we forget our history when we forget the beginnings of what we were looking for the liberation of all at the liberation of just like a man or just certain man or just certain people that until we have that Liberation for all we still have we can celebrate we have to celebrate that's what the fun part is, but we can't forget the work that still needs to be done to make the connections for everybody. And to me I know you were devastated and I was like, oh no, this is

24:54 I don't know that I walked into many prices then because they haven't really changed right and I I did yeah, I also want to spend like I definitely I had a lot of good solidarity from the from being young as I came out as gay and bi men and then living with HIV and doing HIV work my whole adult life and being an AIDS activist and having so many gay male friends with HIV as well. Like I was I had a lot of solidarity with gay men in in so many lesbians did so much work in the AIDS epidemic and fighting for AIDS and supporting our game, you know, gay male Brothers now, I identify as a trans gay man. So my Daddy has no changed over time, but at that point I felt like we needed more support from the guys or I didn't know I do remember that. We had our Cadre of wonderful man who supported us Nile along the route of the Dyke March but also in this effort and spoke up for us publicly. So there have always been Progressive man who have died.

25:54 In solidarity with a lot of the issues of economic issues and gender issues and race issues. And so, you know, there were a couple guys I knew who this out. How did you know? I was really hurt by that this is why and they apologized to me those guys those two guys apologize to me a few years later about it about how about their behavior, And I think that also gets the importance of you knows we were talking the other day like speaking face-to-face with people explaining your position, you know connecting because we had a connection about it a few years later and you know kind of came to terms a night, you know, that was good.

26:47 I have but the statement yes that we wrote together yet with a with our committee talking about that afterwards and I think you have a fabulous poem that maybe we could leave right now. I'll send it to you.

27:04 Brings me back. This could be written yesterday rhinos, 1995-1996. We wrote them to express our continued outrage at Pride politics and actions. There's a long history of mainstreaming marginalizing and exclusion of Boston Pride events as Pride forgotten the roots of Gay Liberation Stonewall protest marches Grassroots organizing. Yes, they have to collude with police and city government to set standards for lesbian and gay pride day Behavior. This unfortunately is nothing new pride has continually marginalize lesbians people of color working-class queers and other politically active people the dominant corporate culture pride has rendered invisible the spectrum of diversity despite the claims to be Pride Without Borders in the spirit of his ability. We applaud as we should everyone people who have

28:04 Courage to express their sexual Liberation to creative Street Theater in the bed or any other form. They choose the diamond heterosexual World represses our rights to sexual expression daily. When Pride does the same they portray our lives and our passions pride is attempting to gain power to assimilation. We are dying out and proud feminist and Progressive where women loving women who March in celebration of our sexuality and we will fight for the rights of others to do the same. We were to everyone I was cry when I read this we ordered everyone to make connections with the many issues that affect our community homophobia racism sexism and Welfare poverty classes on Healthcare access anti-Semitism violence and immigration We Stand proud and strong and solidarity.

28:53 Tell him it's just it's a statement today. It really clear with 25 years ago. I know it feels good to be part of that. And you know, even though it could be written today. There have been some issues of yes in many areas with many other organizing, you know, you never know what inspires other people to do what they're doing and that's why I start like doing the storycorps and I like for the younger generation to hear it and to know there were few people who came before you're all doing a better and that's awesome and it's still going. I read that I wrote to go along with that statement called what's left the fading flag or what happened to the rainbow.

29:48 Lewd Behavior will not be tolerated on this our day of Pride said

29:55 Gay pride gay press and the button beside so off. They went to make a Public Act of Contrition. He thinks Pride Inc is worse than the Christian Coalition. Don't spoil our family day wine the street straight queers you topless women on the bed made real our worst fears. Next year will make sure none of you perverts are allowed to join the nice Gathering of our a political crowd. No loud Dykes. No leather women. No, non-monogamous men. Nope, or women more concerned with keeping clinics open. No left-handed transsexuals FTM or MTF know feminist or radicals. Let's see. Is anyone left open sexual expression has no place in Friday. We are family on it and just happened to be gay next year with operators planned Progressive queers or band.

30:53 Georgia under you are often you are great. You started this magazine Dyke attitude right when it just mentioned that for as a result actually of the hole at I was so upset about some of the community outrage around the bed and bed gate that I just I just was very energized decide to start as being called dykey to journal is like $0.02 and it was filled with like poetry interviews cartoons, like politics fun photography cuz I did photography back then I would you know profile different lesbians. We had a history of bathroom is Action Coalition stuff about reproductive. And so I did that for about 5 episode 5 different I-5 issues and we I mean, I got like different folks like put poetry in.

31:50 Trans male friend actually absolutely put put a poem in essays interviews. Like we had a sexuality Round Table between four of us that we published in there and I would go around to like book stores and give them a few copies to sell and we could forward it by having these huge yard sales at Sarah's house basement outside, but that was really exciting. Actually. It was just really fun like to do like writing and photography and do that in the community and none of it kept. You know, we did a lot of it came out of the Dyke March totally well, so this has been totally fun down memory lane, but I think also since we were started doing this out of the LGBT aging project,

32:39 I think as older queer feminist. We also probably have some things we want to say to our younger axemas and I know I do cuz I appreciate them so much. Do you want to start you want me to start restart? Oh, yeah, totally. I am so glad to see, you know, black lives matter take front and center stage. I want my younger actor Destiny bulb into being brave and to have fun. I can do I found my love of my life to activism, you know, when so it's not just all about hardship and trials that we we have but that, you know, I want them. I want the activist to work hard to make that world a better place for all of us and as a senior now seeing the world I still want to participate, but I also know there is a space for new people and new ideas to come up and I look forward to participate.

33:39 In those new adventures and the sense and Street activism. I have to say during the pandemic 2020. It has been hard not to choose not to go into the streets as an elder as but I have been so appreciative of the energies of younger activists who have been able to continue to do the work. That's so important and that the issues of intersectionality is so much so interesting that you go to term it's a new term for somebody who mentioned it but it is the solidarity of that we of the issues we have always talked about as queer feminist. And so I just look forward to three more Decades of following in the footsteps of my younger.

34:36 Feminist activist

34:40 That was great. And I I would say also like I definitely consider myself, you know that, you know older person in the community and something that I've really got into in the in terms of how I used to be like younger one or the baby in in the activist groups and I was coming up and now I'm an older person and I've also haven't really been actually enjoying like getting to know you anger activist, especially at starting to bring the HIV work. I do to the ball scene. So the black gay and trans queer balls, which are amazing places for Community Family togetherness finding resources and support and I realized I needed to go there to do our age because that's where folks are in like need a lot of resources, but I want to be there as like an older white Twitter trans man as a support to listen to their needs and to provide like resources. I'm aware of but also to support their leadership so, you know because of covet

35:40 Boston Pride didn't happen last year, but transfers Boston trans resistance did and so like I was like a scene of Vaughn and Chastity bowick and trans Ray Vaughan Valentine and others are more black Trans activist took the lead and had an incredible with thousands of people that happened on Boston Pride was it was led by black Trans women and I really feel just like I love supporting the work especially black Trans women who are some of the folks like who are taking leadership who are making connections who are just and I think it's important as a white older white actors of the stand back and it has to be a support to those black Trans women activist and other young activist and and support that work and that's that's really important to me and I I love that they're there is energy and I think it's been really important to listen and learn a lot as a white activist.

36:39 And what is the term? It's not a lie. It's really about being a conspirator The Conspirator. Yes, and that's very important to be like actively working for anti-racism an actively supporting the voices and raising up the voices and the power and the leadership of black and brown activist. I'm not standing on the sidelines and just saying yes by putting your body where your where your politics are if you have also this year, which was really terrific during the pandemic as you mentioned. We might not have had Pride but we had this group called queer Elders are listening and it was a zoom a gathering of LGBT queer activist supporting LGBT younger after this and I was amazed, you know, I was just so supported by them and they were like crying just to know

37:39 People recognize the work that they were doing and so it was a Love Fest all the way around and there have been connections. I have come from that that might not have come around with things in the Boston history project with LGBT history is an amazing place a repository of so much history of our community and I think always it's so important to have these multi-generational conversations and conversations like a cross identity and background in class and work together.

38:13 Well, I really appreciate to attend our relationship and our activism together and her fun together and it's really been important to me to know we have our communities out there that support each other.

38:30 I agree. This is it's just been a really wonderful experience, you know going down memory lane and and bring up all this history. That's also very, you know valid today.

38:43 Will continue in the struggle together. Yes.