George Jamison, Derek Jamison, and Shane Austin

[00:02] GEORGE JAMISON: Hi, I'm George Jamison It's Monday, May 17, 19, 2021. Sorry. I'm here with my son and one of my grandsons. And I'm 73. I'll be 74 in two months. Hi, I'm Derek Jamison

[00:24] DEREK JAMISON: I'm George's son. I'm 48 years old. Last year, I retired from Microsoft after 25 years, and I was living in Bellevue, Washington, during that time. I recently moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I'm here also with Shane.

[00:45] SPEAKER C: Hi, I'm Shane Austin. I'm George's grandson. I'm 23 years old and I'm in California right now. But I'm actually moving to Seattle here in a couple months.

[01:00] GEORGE JAMISON: So why don't I start with my story? Okay. As a young boy, I grew up listening to my father's war stories. That would be your grandpa Derek, your great grandpa Shane. And my father was a pilot in World War II. He flew. He flew in China, and he had a lot of war stories. And so I grew up listening to all those stories. And I always wanted to emulate my father. So when I got to college, I went to the University of Michigan. I signed up for rotc. And I remember signing up for a scholarship, ROTC scholarship, which I didn't receive. And it ties in, I'll tell you later, why we had to take a physical at the time. Anyway, so I started school at the University of Michigan. That had been in 1965. The Vietnam War was on. It wasn't really a popular thing to be in our ROTC at the time. I had a short haircut, and that was the time the hippies were just starting, I think long hair was in the war was not really popular in 65. It hadn't really started getting unpopular yet, really. 66, I guess. So I was in ROTC, as I said. And then between your sophomore and junior year, you actually joined the army. And they pay you. The last two years you're in college, you get a small allowance every month. It was a couple hundred dollars maybe, but to do that, you had to go take a physical. And it was the army physical. So I went down. I went into Detroit and went in for the physical. And they said, oh, you're 4F. 4F was status. That meant you were physically unfit and you were. You couldn't serve. So I was 4F because I had a skin condition. I can't even remember what the name of the skin condition was. So I said, okay. So then I came back, went to several doctors and got notes that Said that they felt my skin condition wouldn't cause any issues with being in any kind of different environments. So I went back and got my physical status changed. I was no longer 4F. Then I was allowed to continue on in ROTC, collect a few dollars a month for my last two years. My senior year, I signed up for the flight program. They had the military paid for your private pilot's license in little airplanes, ground school and flight class. I think it was 50 hours of flight time. And so I learned to fly a small airplane. The quid pro quo for signing up for the flight program was that when you entered the army after graduation, you would go to flight school, which in the army, 99.9% of the pilots were helicopter pilots at the time. I think they had a few airplane pilots, but it meant I would be going into helicopters. And it also meant I'd be going to Vietnam, which I was ready for because I had grown up, as I said, listening to my father and his war stories. So I graduated in December of 68. It was commissioned. I had my. Got a deferment to go in the army for about six months. I was married at the time. Actually, I was married to Derek's mother. She's my first wife. And I got a job as a salesman. And I remember I had a degree in chemistry. I was going to go on and get a PhD in chemistry, but I got into sales and I was selling laboratory equipment and I was calling on chemists. And I started thinking, well, maybe I really didn't want to be a chemist all my life after calling on these people and. But it didn't really matter. I then went in the Army. I signed up. We got to choose our branch of the Army. So I chose the medical service Corps branch and the medical service Corps branch. The reason I chose it, they had the pilots in the medical service Corps branch were called dust off pilots. They flew medical evacuation in the war. And that's what I wanted to do, practice. It seemed like the most challenging of the jobs. So I had, when I graduated, got commissioned. I was commissioned as a medical service corps officer. Then I went to basic training officer basic at San Antonio, Texas, place called Fort Sam Houston. Was there for three months and then started flight school. And flight school was about nine months long. So Derek's mom was a. We met in high school, we married, we joined up again in college and then we got married actually between our junior and senior years. And so she had to decide what she was going to do because I was going to Vietnam and she didn't have a job because we had moved around. So she said, well, maybe she joined the Army. So I called the Pentagon, and obviously they needed nurses at the time. So you never think you could negotiate with the army, but we did. So they said, okay, we have a special program for nurses. She would go to Fort Sam Houston for six weeks of officer basic and then have a one year commitment to go to Vietnam. And then she was out of the army. That's how bad they needed nurses. So I graduated from flight school. And when we drove back at flight school, I was in Savannah, Georgia. Then we drove back to Texas. Derek's mom started her officer basic. And I think about halfway through it then I had to leave for the war. And so we said goodbye. And so I went to Vietnam. And the people over there knew I was coming, that my wife was coming. So I was stationed at a surgical hospital down in the delta of Vietnam, the third surgical hospital. And I was assigned to a dust off unit, the 82nd dust off unit. So then I remember I had to call his mom. It was very rare to make a phone call. I called his mom and said, hey, send an air conditioner or bring an air conditioner with you. Because the barracks were little wooden boxes. So I think she brought it instead of her suitcase, brought an air conditioner. So, yeah, and. And so they put me up. I was in, because they knew she was coming. So they put me in the nurses barracks. I had a room. I was the only pilot that was legitimately living in the nurses barracks. And so she. She came three weeks later with the air conditioner and we set the room up. And at that point, you know, I had been there for a while, so I was. I was doing flying, and she worked in a hospital. And that worked out actually, just to talk about that part of the story for just a minute, it actually worked out very well for me because I had someone that cared about me. And what I noticed during the war was you could see two pilots. And I'm sure Shane may have had similar experiences in the war. The people would be talking. Two guys would be talking about talking and trying to relieve the stress because, you know, all that we were under, but nobody was listening. So you can't really relieve. In my opinion, you can't really relieve stress by talking to someone that's not listening because all they wanted to do was talk and turn. But if you have someone that cares about you and actually listens and asks questions, it was, you know, it was a great experience for your mental health. And I think that helped get me through the war. Actually. My second wife, Paula, she actually brought that point up and said that she probably that helped me. And anyway, so, you know, I was, I was there for actually 13 months. I extended for a month so we could go home together. And kind of interesting story. The day that I was supposed to go home, the 365 days from the day I landed, I actually had a mechanical issue on helicopter. We lost a trend, had a transmission failure and crashed into the side of a mountain. And yeah, and I remember putting out a mayday call on the way down and the location of where we were and thinking, oh, this is really sad, I should have been going home today and said I'm going to die. But fortunately we, we lived through it. And yeah, it was the only night I ever spent out in, in the jungle and it got cold. It was up in the mountains. People, they came in the next day with a Chinook and carried the helicopter out of there. And we, I think they came in with another helicopter to one of the dust off ships, came in and got us, we flew out of there. But yeah, so there I was there for a year at probably the most dangerous, one of the most dangerous missions you could have in the war. The job was to pick up wounded soldiers and to get them to the hospital within one hour of being wounded. Most of the wounds, most of the combat was occurring at night. The fighting was occurring at night. And unlike on the movies where the dust off pilots come in in the morning, we would go in at night. I flew more than half the time at night picking up the wounded people. And obviously at night they can't see your red cross, so bullets flying around. You couldn't really blame people for shooting at you at night. You could have during the day, but it didn't really matter. So we had, you know, a mission. Would come in, we'd go. If the people on the ground were in contact, typically we would have gunships go with us, meet us there. They would come from another base often and we would direct the gunships, you know, where to put down fire. We would tell them when we were coming in. We obviously, we coordinate with the people on the ground, we pick up the wounded, then we tell them, hey, we're coming out of there. And that's kind of the way it went. You know, I never personally got shot. We had crew members get shot, you know, several helicopters had a lot of damage. We would call it getting shot down when we just, you know, stop and check out the helicopter to See whether it was flyable or not. And then, and then. Go on. But yeah, I think Derek and I had a breakfast one day and he recorded it. I think I calculated I probably had about a thousand thousand combat missions in that year, 13 months. Probably a third of them were. 350 say, were missions where there was gunships involved and there was, you know, a lot of shooting going on. Went through several helicopters. Probably picked up 3,000, maybe as many as 5,000 soldiers that we evacuated from various wounds on the helicopter. We had. And we carried. No, we had no machine guns on our helicopters. We had Red Crosses. It was basically. It was a flying ambulance. The guys in the back we had. It was a crew of four. It was a pilot, a co pilot. We called aircraft commander and pilot. And then we had a crew chief and a medic in the back. Crew chief took care of the helicopter. The medic was in charge of the. Of the patients. They both were really cross trained. And the crew chiefs became good medics and the medics became good crew chiefs. But it was. But flying in a group of four guys, you become very close very quick because everybody's life depends on everybody performing. And it's. It was a very bonding experience. I remember one time we had some incidences. It was. It was one of the. One of the missions I was on and the gunships were already there. They were taking fire. We were listening to them on the radio. We're going like, okay, we're gonna go in and land there. And they're. They're trying to shoot the gunships down. And so we're on the way there. And then we lost transmission fluid and we had all these lights blinking and we had to make an emergency landing at an airfield. They had to put foam on the Runway so we could land. And. And it just, just went on. One thing, bad, bad experience after another. Then when they sent a helicopter up from our unit to pick us up where we landed and we went back and I was actually leaving on leave the next day. Got a week off, I think it was go to Hong Kong. And so I decided, since we lived through it, to take the crew and the four of us were going to go into the officers club, which was obviously against the rules, but nobody argued with me. And so I took him in there and that's just how close we were. Of course, I think later in the night the medic gave me an IV because I was becoming dehydrated from too much alcohol. So my back scratched the other. Anyway, yeah, that was sort of how the war was. And I know Derek's mom. I remember one time she was working at night and I was flying at night. And, well, that happened a lot. I mean, geez. I remember one night we actually had breakfast together in the middle of the night, and she said, well, how it's going? You know, why are you here? How it's going? I said, well, crew chief got shot. You know, we got to get a new helicopter and they were taking off, get a new crew chief and a new helicopter, and we're going to take off, fly the rest of the night and oh, okay. Have a nice breakfast. See you tomorrow. So it was kind of a really strange environment, you know, to say, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, Charlie just got shot, but I got another guy and we're gonna go back out and do this some more. And she was just like, very okay, you know, we'll see you in the morning. She got pretty used to that. There was one time, I know it was the worst was there was an operation going on in an area called the Three Sisters down in the delta where I was stationed, and a helicopter, CNC command control helicopter had gone in and got shot down, and people were killed. And then another ship went in and they were killed. And then we got called into go in and get him. And there was a lot of combat on the. On the ground. Actually, it was Special Forces. They were. It was really bad situation. Special Forces was training Cambodians to fight against the Communists. And so they took him on a training mission, the Cambodian trainees on a live. A live combat missions. Not. Not exactly, you know, the expediencies of war. Right. The training was live training. And they got into a bad situation where they were outnumbered and surrounded and taking a lot of casualties. That's why the helicopters going there. So then we had to go in and pull out the wounded. And then. So we said, okay, look, we'll. Because that's. We know how to, you know, our flight, that was our job, was to go in and out of the combat. So we said, okay, we'll fly in, we'll fly back to the Special Forces camp, we'll drop off the wounded and then the supply ships, the other helicopters will fly the wounded from there to the hospital, because the hospital was probably about, I don't know, 45 minutes away. Same. So it would save the time. We could get more patients back to the hospital. So we set up this. We'd fly back and forth, and then the supply ships would fly the patients from there to the Special Forces camp to the Hospital. Anyway, so Derek's mom was working and the word comes in, dust off was shot down and they were all killed. She knew it was me, she knew I was there. So had to be a little tough, right? I mean, so she didn't know what to do. And so she just kept working and her shift was over and she don't. She just kept on working. And I remember, I think she said some of the doctors gave her some medicine and she was just going to keep on working. She didn't know what she was going to do. Anyway, I showed up the next morning. Our shifts were 12. We were 12 hour shifts. Six at night till six in the morning or six in the morning, at six at night. So because of all that back and forth, we. We didn't get back to the hospital till about 10 o'clock the following day. At which point she found out I was alive. Yeah, anyway, that was, that. That was kind of the way the war went. It was, it was, it was very intense, intense fighting. I know I had some strange moments. I had been in the war about six months and one night, I remember we were coming out of a LZ and we were taking fire. Gunships were shooting. And I told the co pilot, I said, okay, read off the torque settings on the engine every 15 seconds. And the reason is if we'd see the torque settings would go down before we'd feel the engine quit and we could go into auto rotation and land. So anyway, we're flying along, he's reading the torque settings, the people are shooting, I'm telling the gunships where to shoot. And suddenly I realized I didn't even have any adrenaline. I wasn't even getting excited. These people are seriously trying to kill me. And I thought, wow, that's. This is really, this is really kind of sick. You know, it doesn't even affect you. It's just, just your job. And that was sort of for the next six months or seven months, it's kind of the way it was. You just did your job and you didn't get emotional, you just, you just functioned. So I think that's the way the army is. I think the army people do their mission. They don't think about the consequences. I know I gave a speech at a Veterans Day thing one day, and it's a. War is a young man's game. We were all young. I was 21, 22 at the time. The medics, someone were as young as 18. The older guys, the guys that were the majors and the colonels, they didn't they weren't out typically flying combat missions. They left it up to us. I'm sure the ground troops, the colonels kind of stayed in the background with the binoculars and watched and watched it a little bit different than. I think maybe they show it in some of the movies. But war is a young man's game. And I think the reason is young men are able to do what they can do. They get to a point where they don't even think about consequences. They just do it. They function really well. I mean, we would. A crew of four. None of us were afraid to do anything. We could fly backwards. The guys in the back would direct us. You know, I would trust them. Yeah, it was. It was. Armenia was made for war. It's. After the war, I was stationed at Fort Lewis and didn't really, you know, since you. There's no war going on, what's your. What's your mission? The mission was just a train. And that didn't seem like really anything I wanted to do the rest of my life. So. But. But the year. The year war was. Was quite an experience. Anyway, we can move on from the war. Came back after the war. I know I met a guy, one of the pilots, and talked to him while I was in Vietnam, and he told me about the MBA program. Had a degree in business. I didn't know what MBA was, and he told me it was about business and, you know, the benefits of it. And then relating to my sales experience and realizing I really don't want to be a chemist. PhD, chemist. After the war, I came back and got the GI Bill and went to graduate school and had a son. And I remember obviously, you know, I would have nightmares and stuff after the war, because it was. The nightmares were more about the dumb stuff we did than the actual combat missions. I mean, a dumb thing was one night I flew into an LZ and hot LZ with bullets flying around. And we had a new medic with us. So we had two medics. We had a crew of five. They were teaching this young, this new medic how to. What you had to do in combat. And so we got on the ground, they got the patients on. And so I said to the crew, I said, well, let's just sit here till someone says uncle or someone gets shot. Which was a test of. To see what people would do. And the crew didn't. Didn't say a word, just sat there. Finally, I took off. And you can't think of anything dumber to sit in a firefight and just sit there, wait for someone to get shot, it could be you. So that's one of the things that would have been a nightmare dream I would have had, like, why did I do that? And, you know, maybe it was to just get respect from the new medic. I don't know why I did it, but, you know, young men do really stupid stuff and they either live or die. Luckily I lived. But anyway, so after school and when I was in graduate school, I had a next door neighbor and he was a marine. He was my age, and he had been in combat in Vietnam. So we used to sit around at night and talk about it, our war, Our war experiences. It was kind of a. It was a healing experience to two of us. To talk is he'd been in heavy combat. I had. And we actually coined a term, we called it mass psychosis. And we decided that everybody over there was crazy and that if you weren't crazy, you were crazy. If you weren't. If you hadn't lost your fear of things and were sane, then you were crazy and you couldn't function. So, you know, we talked a lot about that. We talked about the racism that our training taught us. And I remember one night I went to a soccer game with them and there was Russians behind us with a Russian flag, you know, and that was a tough experience because it's the same red flag the communists had, but healing experience. So to get over all of those things. So anyway, then. Then I got divorced from Derek's mother a few years later and met another lady, my second wife, who I've been married to for 44 years and plan on as many more as we can have. And then my wife had a son from her first marriage. That's Shane, who's. Who's on the interview here. So Shane called me when he was in the second or third grade. I was a business executive. Oh, by the way, the nightmares went away. They pretty much went away. I remember one night after several years, I had nightmares and I went to work. And a guy at work was a vet too. He'd been in Vietnam. He'd been a Marine too. And so I said, oh, my God, I had nightmares last night. I hadn't had nightmares in years. What it's all about now, they call it ptsd, but, you know, we didn't have a term for it. So he said to me, so where did you go to dinner? And I said, well, I went to Chinatown. He says, well, you know what? I went to Chinatown. I had nightmares for a month. So I said, oh. And it was it was just the smells, the sounds, the environment. It was in New York, Chinatown in New York. It was on a hot night and it just, Just kicked back to Vietnam. And then the nightmares went away. But, you know, anything could recall them. They. Anyway, then Shane called me, he's in the second grade or third grade, and said, hey, Grandpa, would you come to my Veterans Day meeting? I was a business executive at the time, busy. And I said, sure, I will. I don't say no to my grandchildren. So it was in the afternoon and I was at work and it's an hour away and I was busy. And I remember getting in the car and I was late. I was going to have to speed. And I'm thinking to myself, why am I doing this? Just a bunch of dumb little kids and I'm a business executive and I had to be taking care of my work. And so I went and it was 20 years after the war and it's hard. Anyway, sorry. Anyway, I got recognized, first time in 20 years. And I broke down. I'm. It's still emotional. We didn't get thanked back then. We came back from the war, I let my hair grow, threw away my uniform and you know, it was. It was a different time as it is now. Now you thank veterans. First time I got thanked was 20 years after the war by a bunch of little kids. It was awesome. Sorry. You can imagine what it was like 10 years ago or 15, whatever it was. So, yeah, that was a tough experience. So then, you know, my business career continued. I remember a few years ago, I met a lady. I met a man, a lady I work with Vietnamese, and she invited me and my. And my wife to. To dinner at her house. And we went and I wanted to meet. It was her brother, brother in law. Brother in law, who she said was a pilot in the Vietnamese Air Force. And she said it'd be nice if you met. So we went. I met him, Connolly was his name. And turns out, I just assumed because he's in the Air Force, he was a airplane pilot. Well, I forgot the Vietnamese Air Force had the helicopters. So he was a helicopter pilot. And so we had a. We had gone to flight school at the same time. He was, he came to the United States. That's where they went to flight school. He was in the same war I was in. And I realized here it is, it's 30 years after the war and he was on the same side, flew the same helicopter as I did. And he'd probably never been thanked. So I had gone the year before to A Veterans Day celebration for my grandson, who's now 7. It was a couple of years ago so that the next year I asked the lady that ran the program and said, hey, I know a man that was a Vietnam veteran in the Vietnamese Air Force. He's probably never been thanked. I'd like to recognize him. So the next year I went to the veterans celebration. I was a guest speaker and I got to introduce this man. And yeah, here he was. I felt bad because it was 20 years for me, and here's a man 30 years. And yeah, it was. It was quite a. Quite a day. After that, we went to a cemetery. There was. Was someone of a Vietnamese lady. American. American. Vietnamese lady had done a park up here and it honored the Vietnamese and Americans. It was the one parked at both the Vietnamese and American flag. So we went there that day. I found that. We found it. And we stood there, saluted each other. It was a real bonding experience. Pretty neat. That was just a few years ago. So sometimes, you know, you feel bad. You say, oh, you know, it's like, I don't have nice shoes. And then you meet somebody with no legs. Right. Or no shoes, no feet. Well, here I was feeling bad because it had been 25 years or since I was recognized. And here's. I met a guy that was 30. So anyway, he got recognized. So that's sort of my war experience where I am now. Derek, my son, he has a son Kyle, who's now in the Navy. He's in the nuclear submarines. And so there's a, you know, a bit of military history in this family. So, Derek, you're up. You got any questions for me or you want to talk a little bit about?

[33:49] DEREK JAMISON: I guess one question was kind of, do you meet with any of the other 82nd dust off unit people? Have you kept in touch at all or.

[33:59] GEORGE JAMISON: You know, I haven't. They have a Vietnam Veterans Helicopter Association. I. I went one time. They had a meeting down in. There was an air show and they had a meeting down in Olympia. I went to it a few years ago and quite honestly, I felt like it's just a bunch of old guys and I didn't feel like an old guy. So I never really connected with them. No. And I've never connected back with anybody. Any of the guys I was in the war with, I did well. And you were there at the time. One of my. One of the fellows I went through flight school with was killed in the war. Several. I mean, several of them were killed. So Derek was relatively young. I don't know, because Amber was there. You were probably seven or eight. We went to Washington D.C. and I remember. Yeah, the wall. Yeah, the Vietnam wall was up. And so we went there and so I looked up my friend, the pilot who I, you know, could find. I found his name on that big, long black wall and I broke down. I wasn't mentally prepared for it. I hadn't thought about it. And it was probably really stupid to look up a friend and then, you know. Yeah. And I'm sure it was the first time Derek ever saw me break down. I was just a baby. Cried. Cried for a while.

[35:31] DEREK JAMISON: Yeah. I don't remember you breaking down, but I do actually remember being there and you looking them up and stuff. So.

[35:37] GEORGE JAMISON: Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, and that.

[35:39] DEREK JAMISON: And that was way back then, so that's crazy.

[35:41] GEORGE JAMISON: Yeah, it was. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. And so, yeah, I never joined that association. I don't know. And they have a thing here in town of the guys who. Pilots meet or. Yeah. Vietnam era pilots meet in a restaurant. And I asked a friend of mine, Bill Metzger, who was a. Heck, he got the Congressional or he was a POW for seven years and he hasn't gone. Wednesday morning is just when I play golf at the men's club. So it's, it's. There you go. Yeah. Nice. Yeah.

[36:13] DEREK JAMISON: Shane, did you have any questions?

[36:17] SPEAKER C: No, not really questions. You know, it's just. I just think it's, you know, Grandpa kind of hit it on the money where, you know, I just. I think it's funny growing up and looking up to Grandpa and I just cherish that. We had that memory of me being able to recognize him for the first time and then how much closer kind of we've become, you know, after I got back from Afghanistan and how much more that we can kind of relate with each other just kind of on that level. Just because it's a, you know, it's just a different experience and it's hard to kind of come back from that and relate to people and, you know, when you meet someone that has been through something like that, how easy it is to just kind of talk about it and, you know, go over it and how much that actually helps you. It's helped me a lot.

[37:14] GEORGE JAMISON: Yeah. Actually, I called. I called Shane just a few days ago because I was thinking, actually I was thinking writing a book about it. I had a cup. It happened to me twice in Vietnam, but one time was really crystal clear. I was dead and I knew I was dead and I knew the lights were going out and Helicopter was going to crash and you hear about people dying and you say your life flashes in front of. You hear people, a lot of people say that. Or you hear people say, oh, I went to God. You know, I reached out, I prayed to God. And my experience was quite a bit different. I knew I was going to die, the helicopter was going to go down, I was going to crash and burn. And the only thing I could think of was, this sucks. I'm dying in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night and no one cares. It's for nothing. And it was just a sick feeling of, what a waste. Fortunately, I didn't die. It was kind of a funny story. A hot round landed on my neck and it burned. And I was told that when you get shot, it burns. So I was thinking it was a bullet. And you get hit with a bullet just before you die and so forth. Microseconds or seconds I was. And I was in, you know, control the aircraft, thinking that it was over. And a thought that went through my mind were not, not thoughts of my life flashing ahead. It was just the senselessness of it. And I, I reached out to Shane to see if he had the same experience and what he felt, but he said that he hadn't had that. It's just a. It could only be microseconds or seconds, yet you have it. And he obviously had some crashes and he had a lot of experiences, but he didn't. He didn't. Yeah, he thought he might. He might die, but he didn't know he was dead. Every. Every mission you gone, you think you might die, you know, but you don't even think about it. Soldiers don't even think about might die.

[39:13] SPEAKER C: No, do they? A lot of close calls, but it's kind of like what you said, where in the heat of it, you know, there's not. It's not like you have like this adrenaline or the sphere going. The only thing I could think about was just doing my job and doing it right and trusting that the dude next to me was going to do his job and he's going to do it right. And that'll get you through it and that'll get you out of there.

[39:31] GEORGE JAMISON: Everybody. It takes everybody doing what everybody's got to do. Yeah, yeah. Your life's in their hands, everybody's hands. And it, and it works. It works really well in a war. But. But I think in the military, you know, to make a career out of the military, I, I couldn't see how you do that peacetime thing. You know, But I also couldn't see making a career out of being a pilot because pilots a pretty boring job unless something shoots somebody, shoot at you. You know, just flying from point A to point B is not a real exciting thing, you know, especially big airliners. It's like being a bus driver, you know?

[40:05] DEREK JAMISON: Well, thanks to both of you guys for service and really appreciate this chat as well.

[40:13] GEORGE JAMISON: Thank you. Derek and Shane, thanks for joining us. And thank NPR for putting this on.

[40:20] SPEAKER C: Yeah, thank you.