Grace Williams and Maria Granville

[00:07] MARIA GRANVILLE: Hi. Well, I go first. I'm Maria Granville. I am 65, proud to say today's date is October 15, 2022. We are in Harlem, New York City, and I am interviewing Miss Grace, Miss Grace Williams. And I am happy to say that I am miss Grace's friend. Your turn.

[00:34] GRACE WILLIAMS: Okay. Today's date. My name is Grace Williams. Today's date. October 15, 2022. I'm here with Maria Maria lived across the street from me. She's a tall, black, beautiful woman. I admire her a lot. What can I say? She's a good friend.

[01:18] MARIA GRANVILLE: Well, thank you, Miss Grace. I am so happy to hear that. And we are so happy to be here with you. And we're going to be talking about Harlem. We can just pick up what we were just talking about. We were talking about the Teresa Hotel and Bloomstein. Bloomstein and Adam Clayton Powell. Those were back in the day.

[01:42] GRACE WILLIAMS: 120 fish.

[01:44] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yeah. Well, did you see.

[01:47] GRACE WILLIAMS: Did I see him?

[01:48] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm hmm.

[01:49] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. But the most exciting person that used to be on 100 and between 125th and 124th, and everybody used to come out to hear his speeches, was Malcolm X. He was the one. Yeah. It was so exciting. Now, he was a fabulous black man. Yeah. When I think about him, I get chills. I'm so grateful that I was able to witness his rallies, to hear his speeches. He had a special kind of humor, and you had to be witty to pick up his jokes and. Oh, it's really great.

[02:59] MARIA GRANVILLE: So, you know.

[03:00] GRACE WILLIAMS: Oh, also the Kennedys.

[03:04] MARIA GRANVILLE: Really?

[03:05] GRACE WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah. When it was at Robert, after.

[03:16] MARIA GRANVILLE: John. Right.

[03:17] GRACE WILLIAMS: Huh.

[03:18] MARIA GRANVILLE: John Kennedy.

[03:19] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. He was here to campaign. That's why he was here. And he was right in front of the Teresa hotel, and he was campaigning.

[03:30] MARIA GRANVILLE: Wow.

[03:31] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. Teresa has a long history count on the black vote. Back in the days, it was very important, you know. Yeah. The black vote for them were very important. And. Yeah, I remember him begging for votes.

[03:56] MARIA GRANVILLE: Do you remember when the pope came?

[03:59] GRACE WILLIAMS: No, no, no.

[04:02] MARIA GRANVILLE: I think I sort of remember that. So where did you hear that?

[04:05] GRACE WILLIAMS: I do remember when the queen came to dedicate the bells to St. Martin's church. So Martin Luther king. Mandela, Wendy. Winnie Mandela. I'm trying to. Yeah.

[04:29] MARIA GRANVILLE: So when did the queen. Where's St. Martin's Church? 122nd street?

[04:34] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. On Lenox.

[04:37] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm hmm.

[04:39] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. Is the sister church to St. John's the divine.

[04:48] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm. So where did you hang out when you were a kid? When I was a kid, we hung out on 125th Street.

[04:55] GRACE WILLIAMS: I wasn't allowed to hang out. I wasn't even allowed to. We couldn't even sit on the stoop. Oh, yeah.

[05:06] MARIA GRANVILLE: No hanging out at all?

[05:07] GRACE WILLIAMS: No hanging out? No. You hang out in the church. That's the only place you could really hang out. Yeah.

[05:19] MARIA GRANVILLE: What school did you go to?

[05:23] GRACE WILLIAMS: P's. What's the school of the block?

[05:27] MARIA GRANVILLE: Which one? On Morningside?

[05:28] GRACE WILLIAMS: No, between 7th.

[05:32] MARIA GRANVILLE: Oh, okay.

[05:33] GRACE WILLIAMS: And St. Nick. Yeah. One. PS 18 or. It wasn't a very pleasant memory.

[05:44] MARIA GRANVILLE: So it's been there that long?

[05:48] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's been there that long. It has taken different forms. You know, the building was used for different forms, you know, different programs, but it's been there that long. It's like Cooper on Fifth Avenue is now a church, but that was a high school. And when you close your eyes, you could see it as, you know, a school. Right. The way I was laid out. Yeah.

[06:33] MARIA GRANVILLE: So you've lived in Harlem your entire life. What would you say is the most important thing about Harlem to you?

[06:52] GRACE WILLIAMS: The most important thing to me, really, I would say, is the people that really created the original Harlem. Harlem has gone through many, many stages, and to witness them or think back on them, it's really, really something, you know. Well, all I can say is unbelievable. Yeah.

[07:44] MARIA GRANVILLE: Well, tell me some of what you tell me more about the people.

[07:50] GRACE WILLIAMS: Or they were all kinds of people. What would you call. Well, like, different levels of. Well, it was all about status and money. It was always clear who owned the house and who was renting. And what I remember is the SRO, where the domestic workers would live, and they would work for a week or two weeks, whatever, and then they would come back to their living space. I remember how many people from the islands and the south lived in those rooming houses, because that's what it was. It was a room. And they would establish themselves there to a point where they could send for other relatives, and the other relatives will come and establish themselves in another room and house. And that's how they did it until they could get an apartment where they could have their family here and establish it as home. And that's how Harlem became strong, because the money they made, they kept it either in the family or in the black businesses, because the black businesses were made up of those little people. And those little people depended on credit from the black businesses. So that was the larger family, how people survived. And neighbors would take care of babies and the little people so that their mothers and fathers could go out and work, because you had to survive and you had to have someone to learn, look over the children. Matter of fact, the exact place I live now, when I was about, I would say, four or five, the woman, Miss Spence, that owned the building, took care of me and my brothers. So that was happening up and down where the community would be looking out and over. The kids. And the kids knew it was like a family, so they had to listen to whatever the elders told them. It was a lot of respect. A lot of doctors and lawyers lived within the community, which was very important. And ministers. It was a minister every other house, and we knew them all. We had people like Charlie Rangel here, Percy Sutton. These people all lived here. Let's see. Oh, I'm trying to. I'm trying to remember his name again right now. But the ministers lived here, and the business people, the people who owned businesses in Harlem lived in Harlem. So it was an investment for everyone that they stayed here, that you were one of their clients, you know. So everything was connected. At one point, matter of fact, the west indian day parade started in Harlem and got so large that they had to go to Brooklyn. Yeah. You know what I mean? And, yeah, that's what happened. It just became so large that they had had to go to another borough, because when it was here, it was on 7th Avenue. So you know how wide 7th Avenue is in comparison to Eastern Parkway? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[14:46] MARIA GRANVILLE: That's interesting, because I'm sure a lot of people don't know that. I didn't know it until you told me.

[14:52] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[14:54] MARIA GRANVILLE: So you've lived in the Mount Morris park district your entire life since you got here?

[15:00] GRACE WILLIAMS: Pretty much, yes. And matter of fact, I went to Mount Morris Park Nursery School myself and my brother at church right across the street. We went to that nursery school.

[15:19] MARIA GRANVILLE: They still have a school over there on the 22nd street. Yeah.

[15:22] GRACE WILLIAMS: Well, we started it up. You taught us how to do it. We started it up. And that nursery school was also a church, a big, beautiful church. And downstairs they had the nursery school, and the mothers and fathers would drop the kids off and go to work, you know? So, yeah, yeah. That nursery school had been there for a long time in the summer. So good to see that it's still there. It's one of the few things that are still there. Yeah. That is still here.

[16:16] MARIA GRANVILLE: Enduring.

[16:17] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah. It's like a good feeling when you think about it. Plus, we had to park right across the street, so all the outside activity was safe. And. Right across the street.

[16:36] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm hmm.

[16:37] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. So it's good that it's still here.

[16:45] MARIA GRANVILLE: So, Miss Grace, as far as I'm concerned, you are the Maya Angelou of fine art. But how long have you been an artist? And because I know you did fashion, too, right?

[17:01] GRACE WILLIAMS: I did fashion, theater, set and design, costumes. Yeah, I've been pretty much through the gamut of the arts. Yeah. When I did my residence in the studio museum, the studio museum was on Fifth Avenue between 125th and. Yeah, 125th and Hunt, 26 on Fifth Avenue. Really?

[17:58] MARIA GRANVILLE: I didn't know that.

[17:59] GRACE WILLIAMS: Huh? You remember?

[18:00] MARIA GRANVILLE: No, I didn't know that.

[18:02] GRACE WILLIAMS: Oh. And at that time, it really was a community museum. When something went wrong, they would have meetings in the studio museum. It was a community museum. It's not like it is now where it's a museum. It was a community museum where people gathered. They learned about arthem. They made it possible for artists to have space and materials and more knowledge. It was there way before Barbara and Tyrez started her program. I mean, it's been there forever. And then they moved, they got grants and all of that, and then they started acting like a real museum. And it really wasn't a. That open to the community as it was with the original. The community was the original studio museum. It was just a beautiful place to be at that time. It was kind of like in the midst of the black movement, so everything was community during that time, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

[20:34] MARIA GRANVILLE: So we talked about some of your most memorable influencers. We were talking about Marcus Garvey. Right? He was the one with the dolls. We were talking about.

[20:50] GRACE WILLIAMS: Oh, oh, no. I was talking about black dolls. And Marcus Garvey had influence on the black dolls because he pointed out and was clear about the whole political thing involved in that, where black children needed to see black dolls to identify with. At that time, of course, there wasn't any black dolls around, but we had leaders who could even look at those small things that were so important that parents never even thought about, you know, because we just did what was done. And I. Yes. So he opened up a whole nother door. Well, of course, you know his mantras, Africa for Africans and Africans for Africa. So he was trying to encourage black people to go back to Africa, and sadly, they didn't want to hear that. That's not the message they were looking for. Even though today is a different story. I know several people who went back to Africa for land, to build houses.

[23:15] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yeah, well, you know, Ghana invited the entire diaspora to come home with an offer of citizenship. Come on back. I mean, come on home. If you're black, you can be a citizen.

[23:31] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah.

[23:31] MARIA GRANVILLE: West Indies, black Americans, wherever you're coming from, just come on home.

[23:36] GRACE WILLIAMS: I thought that was wonderful. And people picked up on it.

[23:40] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yeah.

[23:41] GRACE WILLIAMS: You know, because we have skills, you know, we have something to offer. And like I said, I know several people who did do that and are still talking that same kind of conversation. And if they didn't pick up and go back, they're supporting. You know, it's being done in many different ways. And. Or. And if they're not supporting, well, I guess that's a part of supporting. They're still traveling back there, and there was a time when you couldn't even get them to think about it much more. Go to sea. And a lot of the traveling amongst black, black people now is to Africa, you know, and they're finding out Africa is not the way it's been portrayed all of this time. You know, just like when they come here to America, they find out it's not like they thought it was. So. Yeah. Uh huh.

[25:29] MARIA GRANVILLE: So what do you think about them renaming the park Marcus Garvey park?

[25:35] GRACE WILLIAMS: What do I think about that?

[25:37] MARIA GRANVILLE: When did they do it anyway?

[25:39] GRACE WILLIAMS: I think about that renaming is a part of gentrification, you know? I think all of that is an easy way of taking back. I mean, that. What is it? Malcolm X, Marcus Garvey. What is it, the M's or something? They got something happening in this block.

[26:20] MARIA GRANVILLE: Oh, Marcus meets Malcolm.

[26:22] GRACE WILLIAMS: Huh?

[26:22] MARIA GRANVILLE: Marcus meets Malcolm.

[26:24] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah. What is that about?

[26:27] MARIA GRANVILLE: It's this block, 120.

[26:29] GRACE WILLIAMS: No, I know, I know. But what does Marcus meet Malcolm about?

[26:37] MARIA GRANVILLE: Well, the block, or the block association is about doing things like this. So getting Library of Congress and this organization, story Corp, to come here and interview Harlem residents, they have, well, you know, during Halloween, they have the big Halloween thing. Yeah, it's about community, just like you said, it's about community, except that they've named themselves and they've been very outgoing in establishing what they do and how they do it and doing a lot of things, that's what Malcolm Marcus is now.

[27:28] GRACE WILLIAMS: Is it just this block?

[27:31] MARIA GRANVILLE: It's just this block. The whole idea is Malcolm X and Marcus Garvey. Yeah, it's just as.

[27:38] GRACE WILLIAMS: So that blockage they have on Linux is. What is that about? I mean, is it about do a stop there stop? Because that's what I'm trying to figure. So you're crossing Malcolm, but in order to get to Marcuse.

[28:03] MARIA GRANVILLE: Oh, you can't drive. That's for sure.

[28:06] GRACE WILLIAMS: But that's the point. That's my point. This is the only through way block. And when I was coming up, that's how people thought about it for ambulances, you know, if you were sick, you know, I mean, I'm just saying, since we have in this talk, when I was coming up, that's how it was understood.

[28:47] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm hmm.

[28:48] GRACE WILLIAMS: That's how it was understood.

[28:50] MARIA GRANVILLE: Well, I will say that it's a controversial undertaking, the whole blocking off of the street.

[29:00] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah.

[29:03] MARIA GRANVILLE: You're not the first person to have a conversation about it.

[29:07] GRACE WILLIAMS: Well, the point is you might have Marcus Garvey park, but it's not Gramercy park. All right. It's not Gramercy Park.

[29:23] MARIA GRANVILLE: I hear you.

[29:24] GRACE WILLIAMS: All right.

[29:24] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yeah.

[29:25] GRACE WILLIAMS: And is being treated that way. And we could have a debate on this. I know we supposed to be doing something else.

[29:37] MARIA GRANVILLE: We're doing exactly what we're doing.

[29:40] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah. It's not Gramercy Park.

[29:43] MARIA GRANVILLE: I would agree with you. When was the last time you were in the park?

[29:52] GRACE WILLIAMS: It's been a minute a while ago. Let me say that I really appreciate the improvements in the park. I really appreciate the improvements. Oh, the flowers, the trees, the things I love, the things you want to share with your children, the performance stage, even the dog walk. You know, I really like some of the improvements. The only thing I'm concerned about is people not feeling free enough to just get in and out of there. That's what I'm talking about. It's not just a community park. It's a park.

[31:08] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm hmm.

[31:09] GRACE WILLIAMS: It's a park. And no, you will not have keys to get in and out that park, but they are some other kind of keys that you feel you. I think you know what I'm saying.

[31:28] MARIA GRANVILLE: Well, I want to hear you say it.

[31:31] GRACE WILLIAMS: Well, I said pretty much.

[31:34] MARIA GRANVILLE: But when you say keys, what do you mean?

[31:36] GRACE WILLIAMS: I said pretty much what I had to say, that it is not Gramercy park. That's the bottom line. And if someone is sick or dying and they have to go around the corner, that's time they're dead.

[32:04] MARIA GRANVILLE: I understand.

[32:05] GRACE WILLIAMS: And we had too many elderly people in this community for them not to be able to get to them.

[32:13] MARIA GRANVILLE: Okay.

[32:14] GRACE WILLIAMS: So that's how I feel about the thruway. There's some improvements in the park that I would really say bravo. And there's some improvements in the community. You know, I can't question that, you know, so that's pretty much it, you know?

[32:53] MARIA GRANVILLE: Are you happy you grew up here?

[32:55] GRACE WILLIAMS: Am I happy I grew up here? I could not imagine growing up any place else, as far as joy goes and safety. When I grew up, this was the safest place to be. You know, everybody looked out for one another. Like I said, including the number men. And it was a community, you know? So.

[33:35] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yeah, I used to tell people when I worked, I'm safest up here. Yeah, the four bots, just to walk to the train station.

[33:44] GRACE WILLIAMS: Everybody knew each other, and they didn't have to speak, and not everybody spoke, but if something happened to someone, they knew who they were talking about, you know, and no telling what they would do to aid the person, you know? So, yeah, this was a real safe haven. You didn't worry about your kids. You know, the women were able to come and go, and every. All of the men looked out for them. They could come out the subway and get wherever they're going. Wherever they are going, the thing. And it was such a respect, respectful place to be. It's wonderful. No place else was like Harlem. No place. And, yeah, I was really happy to grow up here. I'm fighting to stay here. I will win because I'm invested here, you know? And there are not too many places you can be invested. Cause everything is so transient now. They keep you moving, and, yeah, I'm. Man, I don't know where else I would be if I wasn't here.

[35:33] MARIA GRANVILLE: Well, I would be hopefully at a nice, large house in Jamaica with the ocean right in front of me, full circle. Go back home.

[35:46] GRACE WILLIAMS: Oh, well, I. This is home for me, put it that way.

[35:55] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm hmm.

[35:57] GRACE WILLIAMS: And I love my home, and I would love to see it keep its integrity. It's slipping away, but it still have enough to be called Harlem, and, yeah, this. I wouldn't want to be no place else.

[36:27] MARIA GRANVILLE: Mm.

[36:28] GRACE WILLIAMS: So it's traveling. I have done a lot of traveling and very happy to get back home.

[36:35] MARIA GRANVILLE: You too? I'm always happy to get home.

[36:39] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah, always. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

[36:42] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yeah. Always happy.

[36:43] GRACE WILLIAMS: A lot of people don't want to go back home. I can't wait.

[36:47] MARIA GRANVILLE: Yep.

[36:49] GRACE WILLIAMS: Yeah.

[36:51] MARIA GRANVILLE: So what do you hope? What do you hope for Harlem's future?

[36:56] GRACE WILLIAMS: Oh, you know, I hope to be here until I die. I hope that some of the young people that we fought so hard for integration would come back home. I mean, you know. Okay, so we fought for you to get into the colleges, but they haven't come back home for us to reap the investment. And it looked like it's happening slowly now, but that's what I would hope for, that we would have more of the youth coming back so we could start building, and everything is so priced out between paying for their education and, you know, buying a brownstone, you would probably have to come from a very prominent family to do that, but that's what I would hope for. Yeah. The younger college people to come back and invest in Harlem.

[38:43] MARIA GRANVILLE: That's an excellent thought, Miss Grace.

[38:45] GRACE WILLIAMS: Huh?

[38:45] MARIA GRANVILLE: I said that's an excellent thought.

[38:48] GRACE WILLIAMS: Well, that's what I would want.

[38:51] MARIA GRANVILLE: All right.

[38:52] GRACE WILLIAMS: You know.

[39:03] MARIA GRANVILLE: Okay, so I guess that's about it. Do you have anything else to say?

[39:14] GRACE WILLIAMS: Thank you.

[39:17] MARIA GRANVILLE: Thank you.

[39:18] GRACE WILLIAMS: You're welcome.