Greg Taylor and Charlotte Taylor

[00:03] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: My name is Gregory Ross Taylor, and I'm 54 years old. Today's Sunday, March 20, 2022. We're at the Greenwood Cultural center in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I am talking with my mother, Charlotte Elaine Taylor.

[00:32] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: I am Charlotte Elaine Taylor, and I am 86 years old. And today's date is Sunday, March 20, 2022. And we are at the Greenwood Cultural center in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I'm doing an interview with my son, Greg Taylor. I'm his mother.

[00:56] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: I wanted to ask you a few questions, mom. We exchanged a few questions before this and gave each other some time to think about. And I think that's good because I've been thinking a lot about that the last few days, and so I'll ask you questions, maybe in a different order from what I gave them to you. I think the first question I wanted to ask you is, I know you're proud of your children and grandchildren, but grandchildren and children aside, what is something in your life that you're the most proud of?

[01:45] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: And as I thought about that question, I read in a blog recently that when Jacob met Esau, when they were coming back, when they had been estranged, Esau asked Jacob, he said, who are these people? And he said, these are the children that God has graciously given me.

[02:10] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: A.

[02:10] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: So that was my first thought. But I know that you want something different than that.

[02:16] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: I knew you'd say that, and that's good. I'm glad you're proud of us, your grandkids.

[02:25] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: And I thought about my work. I haven't really worked that many years. Something that I did was, in later years to help dad with his business when things were bad. We had businesses that needed help. So I did work there and did feel some pride, I guess, in learning to run a computer for book work and decorating skills and decorating houses. So that's a little bit of something. Something that I don't feel as much pride in that as I do in being able to encourage people at church as we. Of course, you know, dad was always wanting to invite people home with us. So that was something that we did a lot of and kept people in our home entertained quite a bit. So I guess I felt like I was able to encourage other people on their walk.

[03:39] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: I'm glad that you. Sorry, say that last part again.

[03:44] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, I guess encouraging them as they made their walk towards heaven. So that was something that I was thankful for. And God blessed me with talent of loving to cook. I used that, too.

[03:59] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah, God did bless you with the talent for cooking, for sure. And I'm the most proud of you about how you've always loved people, no matter who they are, and I picked up on that early in life, and it could be a stranger wandering through town. You and dad would always invite them back home if it was at church on a Sunday. You never really ever had Sunday lunch by yourselves, I don't think. We always had people coming home and lots of strangers, and that brought the world into our home because we had missionaries and people from out of town and just hitchhikers that were coming through town that you always. You never knew a stranger. I think maybe that was. I wonder if that was just growing up in the depression and the panhandle and you just never knew a stranger.

[04:57] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, also having a husband that was always wanting to help somebody, so that had a lot to do with it, too.

[05:07] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah, I'm proud of you for that. And just maybe I wondered if it was just knowing yourselves to be wanderers and prodigals yourselves, you know, that there's always a prodigal wandering around that needs to have a home, and I think you gave that to them.

[05:29] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, and I think, yes, growing up in the depression did have a lot to do with it because we did entertain people in our home when I was growing up, so that that had a lot to do with it.

[05:42] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: What was that like when you were a child and living in Boise City in the panhandle of Oklahoma, having people come through and doing the same thing? Is that kind of where you picked up on that?

[05:55] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, there was more of inviting people home from worship services than I think dad would go to town in the summertime harvest time and bring people there, men there that were looking for work, so he would bring them home when we had a good crop and they could come and help with the harvest. So that's. I don't remember dad bringing. And I think we lived far enough from town that we didn't have hobos that came along the highway like some people did, that were needing food. We didnt have as much of that.

[06:41] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Did you have migrant workers that came from Mexico or from other parts of the nation into harvest?

[06:52] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: I remember one summer we had two young men and then a 16 year old boy. The 16 year old boy had come from colorado looking for work, so dad saw him in town and brought him home. So he was more like a kid joining our family than he was as much a worker. But the two men, I think that was the year we had a really good harvest wheat harvest, so they helped with that.

[07:29] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Next question I wanted to ask you is for your children and grandchildren. What are some of the things you hope for? For me, for my children and their children?

[07:44] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, I think one of the things I thought about last night as I was thinking about that was the hardest thing for me, is realizing that they're not always going to be happy. So my prayer is that they will be strong enough to adjust when things, bad things do happen. But I guess I always want them to be happy and to be places where they can serve. And I see that in them now that they reach out to other people and serve where they are. And that's my big hope that they will do that. Plus, I want them to always be faithful and not forsake this similarly of christians together. And as they do that, reach out to people around them. And I see them doing that. So I'm very thankful for that.

[08:52] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: I'm curious if you want to know about the spiritual journeys of your grandkids, even if it's not always the same as what you might expect. And maybe they're in a different place. Maybe they're not going to church. Maybe they're exploring different ways of faith. Do you want to know about that?

[09:17] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: I think I do. Because sometimes if you're just imagining what's going on in their lives, maybe sometimes that's worse. And for them to care enough that they would want to talk to me about it would mean a lot. And for me to have the wisdom to not be negative as I listen, that would be another prayer I would have. But yes, it is harder for me as I grew up, very strict.

[09:53] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: In.

[09:53] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: The church, very conservative, that it is harder as the years go by to listen and to know what my response should be.

[10:08] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah. Well, also was curious about how you are feeling about dad. He passed away almost two years ago. Coming up on two years, April 29 9th, 2020. He. Dad passed away just after the COVID lockdowns. I don't think he had Covid. We don't think he did. But he passed away with his heart failing. And so what have those two years been like for you?

[10:55] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: I guess I've told people that have asked that it has been so much easier for me than other women that have been widowed because I had plenty of time to say goodbyes and to get the family together and a time of preparation. So I don't, I don't have any regrets about that. I did a lot of praying because it took a lot of patience and I, and physical strength to be able to care for him. So that was always my prayer is that I would not have regrets when he was gone. And I have a piece about that because he was so ready to go. But as I think about his being in heaven, I guess my first thought was, but I would love for him to be there to meet me when I come and be able to sit down and catch up on what's been going on. But I read in scripture that we need to marry or are given in marriage, and we're like the angels. So I know it's not going to be the same, but I guess I'd like to thank that he is up there gathering up family for a reunion like he loved to do here. So that's one of my thoughts.

[12:24] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: But he liked to do reunions, but he didn't like to cook for him. Huh? He did all the cooking.

[12:31] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: So do you have thoughts about that? About what it'll be like?

[12:35] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah. I don't. I guess I think if that's a better place like everybody thinks it is, seems like we would know better than we know now. So I don't really understand when that teaching of Jesus you mentioned, that doesn't make any sense to me.

[12:53] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Oh, it doesn't?

[12:54] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Seems like we'd know each other better, you know, that we recognize each other. At least there'd be something about this world that is deeper and more abiding. Maybe there's something deeper than the kind of relationships we know here of marriage and sex and all those things might be blown away in the world to come. I don't know. We don't know much about it.

[13:25] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Yeah, well. And we don't have to know in order to want to go, so.

[13:32] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah. Well, last question. I have, and you can ask some questions, too, but are you proud of me?

[13:43] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: I guess when you mentioned that the other day, it just kind of stunned me because I guess I assumed that you knew that dad was proud of you and that I'm proud of you. So that just kind of shocked me a little bit as I thought about it. And I've wondered if maybe growing up number five in the family, if you felt less loved or less cared for because there was less time. So did that affect the way you feel now?

[14:25] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah, maybe it does. I mean, I think I saw, you know, dad coach Brent's teams, and I don't know that he was there for coaching mine. I know you were. You coached our fifth grade soccer team. And whenever there wasn't anybody else, a parent that wanted to coach soccer because nobody knew what this new game was all about, and you didn't either, but you had the courage to say that you would coach YMCA soccer. And my friends made fun of us because we had a mom for a coach. And that was before the days when that's supposed to make more sense. We're not supposed to make differentiation of men and women in those kinds of roles. But I was proud of you that you stood up and said you would do that. And I appreciate that. And I guess I didn't understand why dad didn't, but I appreciate that you did. And that's just the reality. I think I found something good out of that, but didn't always understand why. You know, maybe dad didn't have time, but now that I've sat in his chair in the business, in the family business, and built homes with Brent, and I'm enjoying that with my older brother Brent, and niece Lauren, his daughter, I understand how consuming building a house for somebody really is. And I understand dad had a lot of things on his mind and heart in those middle seventies when I was growing up, a lot of things that he was doing. And I knew he loved me. I knew you loved me and were proud of me.

[16:16] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: And that's one of the things that I've gone through in my mind over the past few years because I grew up in a family. We did not say those words. We didn't say, I love you, I'm proud of you. And I don't know whether it was our ancestry or why, but you just weren't really vocal with your love and your praise. Had to learn that in later years. So. And I think dad did, too. That was something he had to learn. And I remember mom in her fifties and sixties learning to say those words. So it is interesting how in families, you know that you're loved, but the expressions sometimes aren't there in a vocal way, maybe expressed other ways, but yeah.

[17:16] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: And I think in later life, I didn't ever feel like you or dad didn't say I love you. I think you did a lot. And we told each other we love each other. So you, I think, grew out of that kind of background you just mentioned, but you learned to express love. And I don't remember as much the words I'm proud of you is, you know, that's something that maybe just the explicit saying of that was something that maybe you said. Maybe it was. I don't know, but maybe it wasn't. As much as I love you. And I think in later years, I realize even as an adult, you still want your parents to be proud of you. My adult children now and your grandchildren, I think they still very much crave for us to be proud of them and what they're doing. And I am, and I know you are, too. And I think as I became a preacher for many years, and I preached in ways, maybe some methods or some beliefs or doctrines, some things that weren't as comfortable for you and dad, I always kind of wondered if you were proud of what I was doing, because I know it was difficult for you to accept some of the ways that I was preaching.

[18:37] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, and I think that I felt proud of you, that you were able to stretch beyond what you'd been taught at home and to have the courage to do that, which, in my introverted personality, that was always hard for me to go against what other people believed. So, in that respect, yes. But it was hard to know that the things that I believed were different than what you were learning, so that, you know, that was a big growth. And I know that when there are differences, then it's hard not to feel like you are that the person that I was proud of you for that. But I guess it just would have taken so much courage on my part that I recognize that that was a very courageous thing for you to do. And probably I didn't change a lot of times because of that fear of going against what I always believed or what other people believed. So, searching scripture and coming to your own conclusions are things that I struggled with over the years and still working on the. But as you started your life, you were always thoughtful of other people, other children. In the first and second grade, you were always the one that was. And I was told by your teacher that you were thoughtful and would always find the person that was not, didn't have a friend. So that was something that I saw all through your childhood, was your being a good friend to your classmates and your cousins and whoever was around that. You were just always more of a peacemaker than some of the rest of them. So that was always a good thing for me to see. And I guess in recent years, I'm more proud of you for your zeal for helping right some wrongs that have been done racially. And so your courage in doing that has been a great thing for me to watch. With the 1256 movement, that's been something that's taken a lot of courage and work. And so I'm proud of your finding ways to. And dad would be so proud to see you using all the stuff out of the warehouse to give someone else some joy. He would love that part. He just hated to see things wasted. So he would. I imagine he's smiling a lot as he watches you, and he's always office sitting in his chair and doing his work that makes him happy. So thankful for and proud of you for doing all those things and helps Brent, too, in the business.

[22:13] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: So thank you. Yeah, there's. I think the heart that you talked about when I was a kid was just, if I was at Six Flags and I saw a kid in a wheelchair, I would stop being interested in the roller coaster and a little bit more interested in the life of that child and what that child was going to get to do that day and wouldn't be able to do. That didn't necessarily take me into all the different professions of helping, like your son, Toby, my oldest brother, as a doctor, to help people in those ways. But I think I've appreciated how different people are in the helping professions.

[23:03] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: So what was your impetus for going into the mission field?

[23:13] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: I think the fact that I was, when I think about, you know, you had mentioned about what it was like being the youngest. One of the benefits was there was a trailblaze for me, and I think Terry and Brent, Debbie and Toby, all. You facilitated them to go to a christian school in Arkansas, to go to Harding university. Then I went as well. And that was a place that opened us up to the world. We got to travel first to Italy when I was 19, which you had already been there, you and dad, because you supported Charles and Carolyn Moore there. And so I got to spend a month with Charles and Carolyn in Sicily. And because of your connection, I wouldn't have known that otherwise, I wouldn't have had that opening to the world. That's where I learned when I was 19 years old that God doesn't speak English, or he may speak English, but speaks Italian, too, and Swahili and every other language and Mandarin and Russian. So that kind of opening up to my world and my heart, that I already had some compassion, just realized that I'm not better because of my particular way of growing up and my church or my belief system than anyone else in the world who's growing up seeking after what is right and true and just and good. And so that affected my. The way I think about the world. And then I, as I grew older, realized, as I try to be in a marriage with Jill, have three kids raising them and two of them daughters and a son, that I'm no better because I'm a man. And I think that that's a patriarchal view that we kind of were brought into in our particular church that I decided to find another way and have a way of. And I saw that love between you and dad. I didn't have an issue with that. It was more a belief that in marriage, there should just be an equality. And so that's how Jill and I have tried to live our life, that she can take whatever role she wants, I can take whatever role. And so in addition to the way of faith, seeing other faiths in other parts of the world, also realized that men and women should be equal in every way. And so that was about a decade long journey for me, of trying to do everything I could in ministry to make sure women in our church faith were of equal standing and voice and leadership. And that was out of a conviction that that's what I believe God created from the beginning to be true. It's just that males have, throughout the world and history, have tried to dominate women, and that that shouldn't be the way it should be, and it's not ordained for. For the world to be that way.

[26:52] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: So how much do you think being in Africa affected that, that way of thinking? I know I can't imagine taking a three month old baby when I. When I was your age and made a trip to Africa. I can imagine that. And you were. You and Jill were so bold to be able to do that. So that experience, how much did that affect how you feel about the role of women?

[27:25] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah. I mean, it made me respect Jill a lot. To be carrying Ashley, our oldest, and then to have Anna and Jacob over in Uganda gave me a deep perspective. And I appreciate you and Jill's mom, Bobby, for coming over and being with us and for Ray and dad coming as well, but being there and having to live a life that was distant from our life here, culturally, distance wise, literally. And then at times when I felt homesick, times when dad was on an operating table having open heart surgery and I was far away, I had to reach out and just say to, are you gone? And friends, my dad's in a operating room and I'm not there, and it makes me sad. And they prayed for me and loved me, and I became a person in need instead of always thinking that I was a person that had always giving. And I think the greatest lesson of my life, I've learned is just to be a person in need and not a person who thinks I'm always giving, but a person who can also receive love from others.

[28:51] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: And you helped me learn that when I had surgery. When you were in Italy, you went overseas your first year of college, and I had hysterectomy, and I didn't let you know because I didn't want you to worry. And I got in big trouble for that. You said, are my prayers not any goods?

[29:18] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Okay.

[29:19] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: So I did learn to be more aware that people, family does want, do want to know, and that sometimes you need to let them decide whether they are going to worry about it or not, I guess.

[29:39] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Yeah. And I'll say just one more thing, because you asked a question I don't know if I really answered about race. And I think my Jill's, in my experience, and our kids and Africa for some reason. So for seven years, living there in Uganda and then coming back just about the time of 911 in 2001, somehow seems like God has always put us into places where we have valued and wanted to value diversity and not living in a place or in a situation where it's just one race, because we want to emphasize God's love for all people really, really matters. And that segregation has happened because people thought that black people didn't matter, or Native Americans didn't matter, or Asians or hispanic people didn't matter. And that's a real history in our nation. And not just nation, but world. I've moved from that place of. Maybe it's God given and nurtured in by you of compassion, too. It's something where I want to build bridges and unity and love across religious lines and across men and women lines and across racial lines. And I think that's what I'm learning is my purpose.

[31:21] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, and I think it's easy for us to say that I want to do something to help, but it takes energy, it takes wisdom, and takes so many things that a lot of us don't want to have to do. And so that is something I'm very proud of you for, taking the steps to put those things into practice instead of just talking.

[31:50] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Thank you.

[31:51] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: About it.

[31:52] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Well, and it's appropriate that we're here at the Greenwood Cultural center, because when I was convicted a few years ago about the race massacre that happened right here where we're sitting on one day, June 1, 1921, thousands of white people murdered up to 300 black people and burned down 1256 homes, more than 100 businesses. And they did that because they were jealous of black people's success in what was called Black Wall street. They did it because there was a rumor of an assault of a white woman by a black man. Those kinds of things were used as excuses for white people taking the lives of black people. When I learned that story and connected it back to yours and dad's building a building business, a home construction business since 1958, and it's still run by Brent. And decided to join back with Brent and help to run the business and sit in dad's office after he passed. And when I connected what happened in the race massacre and the fact that none of those homes were ever compensated for because insurance claims were denied in courts, and they said it was a riot, so nobody was compensated. No businesses were compensated, except for white businesses that lost ammunition and guns because white people broke into their shops. Only those businesses were compensated by insurance. The city stole land from black people after they were burned down. So right where we sit here making this recording, so many people lost, it was, we just read on a plaque outside, $2.7 million worth of homes and businesses. And that was in 1921. It would be $60 million today. So nobody has ever repaired that, even after 100 years. No legislature. Oklahoma, no city of Tulsa. So I want to thank you for allowing me, when dad died, to start a fund, and we're calling it the 1256 movement. That was the beginning of paying reparations for homes for up to 1256 families in Tulsa in the next decades. So the vision is to see black families flourish and prosper and get college educations and build businesses and build their homes. And yesterday, I was able to give a $3,700 check to begin a remodel project for a home that a black woman is owning just down the street from here. And so thank you for. For your role in that.

[35:10] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, thank you for carrying it on. Sometimes we start good things and we get lost in other things happening. So thank you for sticking with what your dream is, and God will bless you as you follow his wisdom.

[35:30] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Thank you. Thanks for this conversation today. Mom. I love you.

[35:36] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: Well, thanks for asking. You know, sometimes when we get older, we think that we're. Our ideas are not valued. So thank you for valuing me.

[35:51] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Absolutely.

[35:51] CHARLOTTE ELAINE TAYLOR: I love you.

[35:55] GREGORY ROSS TAYLOR: Love you, too.