Gretchen Wallisch and Thomas Ketchum

[00:00] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Start.

[00:02] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. I'll introduce myself. Thank you. Yeah. My name is Gretchen Wallisch I'm 38 years old. Today's date is May 11, 2023. I'm in outside of Augusta, Georgia. And I'm here with my one small step partner, Thomas Ketchum

[00:21] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: My name is Thomas Ketchum and I'm 59 years old. Today's date is May 11, 2023. I'm located in north Muskegon, Michigan. And I'm here with my one small step partner, Gretchen Wallisch Cool.

[00:44] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: And then I think the next step is we'll read each other's bios. I can pull yours up from my email. I can pull that up. And so what I read about your bio is speaking your words. It says, I'm from a blue collar union family. I'm a practicing Catholic. I grew up in what can be described as an inner city. I'm the first in my family to hold a bachelor degree. I now have three college degrees. Congrats. Thank you. Yeah, that's awesome. I enjoy learning new things, debating various topics, including politics, hunting, cooking, and music. I served in the military. I married my late. I married late in life, and unfortunately, we have no children. My political beliefs are a mix of conservative and libertarian, but strictly adhere to the constitution.

[01:40] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Okay. And in reading your bio, it says, greeting. Sorry, go ahead. I grew up outside of Cincinnati, Ohio. I am in my conservative hometown. My progressive family has always maintained respect and loving relationships with friends and family from a range of political perspectives. In my adult life, I moved to Washington, DC, where I learned in the international aid industry and had profound privilege of visiting conflict affected countries. My greatest concern for our country is maintaining peace in the face of increasingly divisive discourse.

[02:33] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: So maybe we can start by answering that question. Why did you want to participate in a one small step program?

[02:39] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Well, I heard about it roundabout through a podcast, and I thought it was something I'd like to try. I have a spectrum of friends all across the political spectrum, but I seem to have lost a lot of good friends over the last 1516 years, since about 2016. And I. It doesn't matter, it seemed, whether or not I tried to play middle of the road. And the one thing to me that binds all of us as Americans is our constitution. And it didn't matter to me. My personal belief is we all have essentially the same objective. We just have different ways of getting from a to b, and that's the difference between us. But for the most part, you have zealots and whatnot on both ends of the spectrum. But I think the vast majority of us want the same things we just differ on how we get there depending on the person and their personal experiences. So having lost a number of friends, especially on the more progressive liberal side, I felt it. And it was a good opportunity to talk to somebody, hopefully, who was going to be able to meet me halfway and at least have a civil discussion.

[04:14] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: That'S significant. I'm a fan of meeting halfway. I really am. And I actually really appreciate and hope wholeheartedly agree with you that I think for the most part, everybody wants the same things. And I think that's a crucial point, both in our conversation, but in the broader conversation in our country right now, I think a lot of people kind of want the same thing at heart. So for me, the question to answer that question of why I chose to participate in the one small step program, so I actually, I heard about it on, that was being advertised on the local NPR station here. And so I heard about that. And I was like, that's pretty interesting. And I kept hearing it. I was like, I should really do that. I should do that. And then in June, the news came out about the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, which I know is, you know, it's a tough topic. But that was the day that I got online and signed up because I just said, what can I do? Like, what can I possibly do? I felt so upset and devastated by that news that I was like, what can I do? Like, we need to bridge a gap here in our country, and I don't expect that that's a topic that's going to happen. But I just wanted to do something. And so this kind of felt like, felt appropriate, felt like, you know, we need to be talking to one another kind of. In my statement, my intro statement that I had written up, my biggest concern for our country is just maintaining civil discourse and having civil conversations and respectfully disagreeing with one another. Right. You can love someone, you can respect someone, you can respect their opinions, and they just may not be the same as your own. And that's okay. And that's kind of what moved me to sign up for this. Yeah. So some prompt questions here or if you have any that you'd like to ask me or.

[06:22] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Well, I'd like to see that. The first question up there is, could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values? Can you let me know a little bit more about you than that way?

[06:38] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: That way? Yeah, I definitely more so than identifying truly one party or another, I do identify that a lot of my personal political values tend to be definitely on the far more progressive side, whether it be social or economic or fiscal, that's the direction I attend. And I kind of always have. And certainly throughout my life and education and experiences, I've kind of reinforced those views. But, you know, you also find yourself often surrounded by people who agree with you. And I think it's important to not always be in that realm. I said I grew up in southwest Ohio, where it is very conservative. I lived in Washington, DC for years, where it's very progressive. And now I live outside of Augusta, Georgia, where it is also very conservative. And so, you know, I think it's important to have a fluency in navigating these different contexts. And I don't know that every american has the opportunity to do that. And also being a military family, I don't think that necessarily culturally, I mean, there's not really a culture of talking politics necessarily in the military, but there's, you know, I mean, it's. There tends to be a different worldview sometimes. And again, I respect it, but that's kind of, kind of where I am and that those are my political views, I guess, without getting concrete on different topics. But how about you? So any questions here?

[08:22] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Um, really, it's been a huge evolution for me. Grew up in a strong blue collar union family, actually started out attending a Baptist church. My father's family's Baptist and Lutherans. My father, my mother's family was Catholic. And going. Growing up living in the city where we live, we were lower middle class. Now, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have called us poor. I guess I never grew up thinking I was poor, but I did grow up understanding that there were certain things that went on in the world. I believe that I was in a fortunate group of people that grew up with the getting the fruits of doctor Martin Luther King's mission and his stuff. Growing up, going to the public schools, we were immersed in doctor King a lot. I went to college, started out in a engineering program, and ended up working, getting into political science. I also worked with or studied criminal justice. One of my degrees is in criminal justice. So I wanted to give back to my neighbors in my neighborhood. We grew up with a very mixed cultures, so I never thought of myself as white or black or any of my friends as hispanic, asian, or black or whatever. We were all just good friends. And I knew as I went through life, because of where I grew up in Muskegon Heights, that there was a lot of stigmatism to being an inner city, more or less. It's small city, but considered inner city. I got out of college. I came home. I worked for both Republican and Democrat political campaigns. And I kind of immersed myself in a little bit of that. After working close to them in both ends, I kind of got discouraged by both political parties. I did move on from, you know, younger in my life. I was more of a Democrat. I tend to be more liberal. I consider not as much a liberal, but a classical liberal or libertarian. As I grew older, as I studied things more, got my other degrees, I tend to be, I tended to become more fixated on what makes us all equal, which is the constitution. So I became more conservative. But again, I have those beliefs that are, you know, your rights end at the tip of your nose and mine begin at the tip of mine. And in a civilization society, we must agree to go and negotiate what personal freedoms we will give up or intrude upon in order for us to live in a civil society. So again, most of my background comes from my political beliefs, come from what's in the, what the founding fathers documented in the constitution and how that, I mean, it's, it's miraculous to me that at that time, those people were able to put together a document, come together with, with the difference, differences from the economies in the, in the industrial New England area down to the agricultural southern areas to form a government for the people, by the people, with the people. And so I tend to jump across the map a little bit, the spectrum, depending on what it is, what I'm dealing with. I'm not as much a full blown libertarian because I don't, I understand that. You know, sure, you, it's, it may be your body and you want to do drugs, but there are other circumstances that evolve out of that, that affect your neighbors or your community or even your family. So there are certain personal freedoms that we must agree to, you know, put aside in order to live in a civil society. And so, you know, that's kind of where I'm at. I hope that wasn't too vague or, you know, roundabout.

[13:36] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: That was actually a beautiful evolution, description of an evolution, as you said it. You know, that's actually, and you hit a lot of really powerful themes in that, too. So thank you.

[13:49] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: You're welcome.

[13:49] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Very cool. Yeah.

[13:55] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Let's see the next question. Is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with but still respect?

[14:03] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: You know what? May I just, since you had shared certain aspects of your upbringing and identity, may I just share a couple quickly? Because it just made me think of, and it's things that we actually may have in common, too, a couple things. Growing up kind of middle income. I, too, grew up very much middle income. We were very fortunate in a town that was kind of an industrial hub in its day. But the day that I grew up there, all that industry had left. And so there wasn't a lot there. And I think that's the story of a lot of american cities, especially in the midwest, in Ohio and Michigan, and as I'm learning in Georgia as well. And so I think that there's a lot to be said for socioeconomic ties and how it informs. And I think of it more and more all the time for some reason, and to explain, you know, the differences that people feel, especially in today's world and today's economy and today's politics. And I also, on the religious side, grew up in a catholic family, family Catholic on both sides. But I'm not involved in the church right now. So in any case, those are things that I'd share about myself. The other thing I'd share about myself is that my husband and I, we relocated here about a year and a half ago, and about that time, we had a little girl. So I've got an 18 month old. So those are just congratulations to broaden some context. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a joyous, it's exhausting, but, man, it is the coolest thing I've ever done, so. But it's, yeah, I thought that those would be things that I didn't share my profile that would maybe be relevant for the conversation, you know, some of which, you know, midwest, we, we share in common, you know, so.

[16:04] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Well, even, I'll tell you, even my, my faith was a evolution. I I went to the baptist churches and, well, my father decided, he sent me down, my brothers, and said, either the nuns are going to break here or the corrections officers will. So he decided to send us to a catholic school. And I would go to church on Sunday in my regular parish, and I'd hear, you know, we downstairs, we would sing Jesus loves me and all that other stuff, and. But when you got upstairs in the afternoon and went to service, you were going to hell for everything. You looked at little Suzie, you're going to hell. You had a soda pop, you're going to hell. There was a disconnect, but when I went to the catholic schools and encountered the priests that we had there at that time, you know, talking with him and having conversations because I was a neighborhood kid and the nuns all knew me anyways, so they would ask me to come help out on different things. I found more of a connection with the catholic church. And the. What I find is the redemption and absolution that, yeah, we're all screwed up in some way. We all do things wrong, but there is forgiveness if you ask for it. And the biggest step is forgiving yourself first. So, you know, for me, I understand from a lot of my close friends growing up who grew up Catholic, who don't. Don't attend church now, kind of where you are probably coming from. I. For me, it was something more of a nature where it was, again, an evolution and an understanding is the more I understood, the more I grew, so.

[17:58] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Well, beautifully said. Yeah.

[18:06] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Where do we go from here? Do you want to.

[18:08] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: I know, yeah, well, we. Yeah, well, I wasn't going to add anything. I just. Yeah, I thought I'd share those things about myself, since you had shared those. And, you know, here we are. In the spirit of sharing, any questions.

[18:24] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: You want to go down that list or do you have any other questions off the list that, you know, I don't. Again, I'm. This is all new stuff to me, and I don't. Don't usually talk much about myself, so it's hard for me to really, you know, expound on me versus, you know, ask me a question or pick my brain and I will give you a book. But to volunteer it, I don't. I'm not that good at.

[18:53] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: That's all right. That's all right. Well, in a virtual environment, it's kind of hard, too, but I do find some of these questions to be kind of interesting. I think the two that jump out at me, and they're not numbered here, but it would be like. Well, questions two, three and four, I think, are really interesting. It could be a lot to cover in an hour, but now that we've shared maybe a little bit more about ourselves, we could do question number two, which. Which you had gotten to earlier, you know, is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with but still, respect, if I shared anything that you.

[19:34] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Well, yeah, I mean, I. You had mentioned that you were distraught over the Hobbs case and.

[19:47] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Or.

[19:47] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: I'm sorry, Dobbs, that removed the Roe versus Wade connotation. I can understand that. I don't know. How much did you know about Roe versus Wade to begin with? Did you know that it was more of a case that involved HIPAA?

[20:09] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: I was actually. So I studied women's studies in college and we discussed it quite a bit. And so. Yes, yes, okay.

[20:23] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: That's fine. I know people who don't know the basis in the background, but they have deep seated beliefs. And when we get talking about different things, they tend to, oh, I didn't know that. I told look it up because I, you know, I wouldn't trust me either. Go look it up. And when they do, then they can come back and they talk to me a little bit more about it. But it's, you know, it is personal. It is a personal choice. And as far as things go with my background, something as basic as abortion, I actually started out as a capital punishment person. And after working for Michigan Department of corrections as well as my faith and everything, that again also evolved. I really, when you study history and find out how many times governments have made declarations that they have the right to kill you or somebody else, that they deem a certain standard, that your life isn't worth living. So for the betterment of society, we're going to get rid of you. The eugenics, what do you want to call it? It's not philosophy. The studies of eugenics, late 18 hundreds and early 19 hundreds led to a lot of that. And that, that just scared the hell out of me. I have, I lack any coordination. I'm rotund now, but I was smaller earlier and I, it bothers me, you know, I have bad knees. What if somebody says you can't have niece or you're, you're too old, you know, or something like that? So I understand where somebody might have a deep, a deep conviction towards something. But I also, from, again, from my perspective, it's hard to understand when you start looking at the worldview of that, where a government can dictate what's going on. I actually thought in the decision that they had made with that case, it was the correct decision because it put it back into the state's rights, which according to the us constitution is correct. Anything not specifically delegated in the us constitution goes back to the states to decide. Here in Michigan, we voted down, we voted into place abortions. And it's, you know, and that's where I believe it belongs, is for the people to decide, not a government. But I understand it might not have been my choice, but I respect the fact that my rights end at the end of my nose and your rights begin at the end of yours.

[23:28] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah.

[23:30] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: I hope I didn't layer a subject. It might have been really sensitive.

[23:35] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: No, no, no. Honestly, that all makes sense. And it's all, and certainly by a constitutional interpretation, as you cite, that certainly does make sense. It's just the, you know, the greater context of what that means and that, you know, what it. What it means is that perhaps certain states will keep that as a right. Perhaps certain states will not. So it will be and will continue to be that women and families or pregnant people who can afford it can gain access so many people cannot. And I guess my concern there is that we shouldn't be, you know, I mean, it's such a personal decision between a person and their doctor. A knee replacement, that's a decision between you and your doctor. That's just not, you know, and something so, so sensitive and so complex as a pregnancy simply cannot be. It's not reasonable to assign, you know, more specific restrictions or judgments to it, I guess, is my feeling, and I will share in my personal experience. Having just had my first baby a year and a half ago, it is the most incredible thing and it's the most beautiful thing when you're ready for it and when you want it, you know, and it. But it's. If it's. If you're not ready for it or you don't want it or it wasn't welcome or it was a product of some tragedy, there's just, there's. There's nothing more tragic, I think, than that, you know, and I think that there should be social systems in place. If this is going to be the way things go, then there need to be social systems in place for the women, pregnant people, the babies who come from, you know, that's. That's my only thought, right? Not to convince just that those are my, those are my feelings on it. And I think. I think the thing that most people would agree with is that every abortion is a tragedy. Like, that is the most sad thing in human existence. But, or one of them, certainly. But not everybody does it, of course. I mean, I just. I have a hard press to imagine people not doing it of necessity, you know, and certainly there are people who do right and wrong and whatever, but it just is, you know, decision between a person and their doctor.

[26:24] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Yeah, I was going to say, let's flip that. Is there something that you've heard from my beliefs that you don't agree with but still respect?

[26:39] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Oh, gosh. Honestly, not really. Nothing really stuck out that I thought. Hey, I mean, maybe that everything you explained honestly, honestly seems very reasonable in the way that you feel and the way that you, you know, in your beliefs and values today, like that. It all sounds most reasonable. So I can't really say, like, hey, pick this one thing and not agree with it.

[27:10] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: I like that constitution.

[27:12] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: A little more so that I could have those discussions with you, but I didn't, so. But, you know.

[27:21] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Well, thank you for calling me reasonable. I don't often get that. Mostly I'm told I'm hard headed. My mom always said I was a hard headed child, so I'm used to that from a wee young age.

[27:34] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. Yeah.

[27:40] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs?

[27:46] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Um, I do, yeah. I think especially in today's world, I think that people on different sides of the spectrum tend to look at each other and assume they know everything that that person, if you believe this, then you believe this. And this is why, you know, and I think that's where this is beautiful, because I don't think that's not that simply. There's not a lot of room for nuance in our media today. Right. Whether it be news media, whether it be social media, whether it be. There's not a lot of room for nuance. And that nuances like the variety of human experience that we're sharing with each other in a forum like this. And that's why I was so attracted to this. I thought that was something really beautiful and profound and important, because I do think that people kind of look at things very black and white. If I say I'm progressive, people think that like, oh, she believes this and this. That's not always the case. Right, right. It is informed by our individual experience, and that's a important to get at. And I think the nuances where we learn from each other and can learn something from one another rather than just be on this polarization path, you know, that, I think is so, so unhelpful for us as a country. So I do feel misunderstood often. And I think there's increasing level of, like, disrespectful language that people use when talking about the other, you know, and I don't really appreciate that, like very kind of personal attacks and things like that. So I do. How about you? How about you? Do you often feel misunderstood by people?

[29:32] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: I believe a lot of times people misunderstand or misunderstood because they, people tend to rest authority on their opinions. And it's a, you know, it to me, the minute they, you say you're a conservative, all of a sudden, well, I'm a racist or, you know, I hate poor people. Okay. I grew up in a poor neighborhood. You know, my, my father, literally, in order to put us through the catholic schools, my dad went to work at seven in the morning, got out at 330. He would change and go to work from four until midnight in a second job. My mom worked from eight until four in the afternoon and then would come home. I, you know, I don't enjoy white privilege. The only white privilege I get is a sunburn. But the minute you say that, it's there. And I. My personal belief is the social medias have given such anonymity to people and such security that they can lash out and say things and do things that they wouldn't normally do. It's not the same, even with me and you just looking at each other right now, but if you are sitting right next to somebody, you're not going to say a lot of the stuff that you would normally say when you're, you know, halfway around the world from the other guy, and he's, uh, you know, he's disagreed with your opinion, right? So, yeah. And I, you know, I tend to be knee jerk with some things. Growing up, where I grew up and how I grew up, my dad always taught us, you don't play games, you play for keeps. And I. I don't escalate right away. I don't walk away from, I don't start fights, but I won't walk away from them. And that's the way I grew up, you know, so I. I try to, you know, the best influence I ever had was the priest at the school I went to. He made me promise to bait behave. I. Coming from the public schools, most of the kids at the catholic school that I went to were kids of business owners and a little bit more wealthy than us. My nickname at the grade school was Casper. I was the white spook because I grew up in the, in a predominantly black neighborhood and all this other stuff. So I learned young to defend yourself and whatnot, and I. And. But there was one kid at the school who I watched one day push down a little five year old. I was in 7th or 8th grade, and he pushed on. This kindergarten black kid called. I walked over and punched him, put him on his butt, told him, come say that to me. For the next week. He and I had a appointment at lunch for me to kind of knock him on his can until he decided to behave himself. Father sent me down and said, that kid that can't go anymore, he told me if I looked at the boy wrong, I was going to get suspended. But it's just, I remember father telling me that time to time, patience, understanding, what will jesus do? So even though I do at times will lash out on social media or whatever, I try to remember, you know, what I was taught and that you know, I don't know that person's personal experiences, so I don't know, you know, their only experiences from some knucklehead who called himself a conservative. So they label me the same because that was their personal experience. Experience.

[33:53] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Right. Yeah, I hope feeling misunderstood though.

[34:01] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Yeah, yeah.

[34:02] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Identified as a certain group and misunderstood in that way. Yeah, yeah. Well, and something that, yeah, we've probably all experienced at some point too. Right.

[34:15] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: But these days I do think the discourse has led to a lot more of that. And I think that's why, you know, some of my closer friends on both sides of the spectrum, when I start talking middle of the road minute, I say, you know, I didn't really care for this policy from Trump, oh, you're a whatever. Or I didn't care for this policy from Obama or euro whatever. And it's just, to me, has gotten a lot worse. And the media feeds on it 24/7 you know, if you got, you're trying to get people to put eyeballs on your station, the media just plays it up and feeds that red meat to a, you know, frenzy in a, you know, crowd.

[35:04] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Or if you're looking for clicks on a written article.

[35:07] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Yes. The headline, you know, you know, the.

[35:10] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Headline is the more shocking the better. Right. And it eliminates nuance. Again, all of it eliminates nuance.

[35:17] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Right.

[35:18] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Please go on. I'm sorry, did I interrupt you?

[35:20] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: No, I know. No, I was just going to say you're exactly right. You know, the headline, the more blood they show in the headline, the more red meat they give, the more people. And I've watched people, I've read comments and stuff. You can tell obviously whoever made the comment never even read the story. They read the headline and they started to write a comment. And it's usually something that, you know, is, is not nice.

[35:49] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah, it's true. It's true. And I felt that way in a virtual environment too. Even with work, I felt like niceties and civil discourse just kind of decreased while people were remote. I think even in this context, it's maybe easier to sign into a meeting and be rude or like have your camera off and then type something terrible in the chat. You know, I was like, I think it's like just gotten worse all over the place. So it's unfortunate. And certainly social media, I think, has a lot to do with that. I think that news has a lot to do with it. It's a shame. And also then if you don't identify with, you know, whatever lean or whatever media it is, if you don't identify with that, then you can also be grouped in with that whole. That is becoming more and more polarized, and it's just. It's silly. Right. That's where I feel, like, misunderstood, right?

[36:48] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Yep.

[36:50] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. Yeah. And that's also where, actually, to get to the next question, do you ever feel troubled by the people with the same beliefs as you and how they communicate those beliefs to others? I do. I do feel a disconnect there. I have some friends who are far more left leaning than I am. And while I agree with views, I also very much want to sit at a table with my family that doesn't agree with me and with my friends or broader community that doesn't agree with me and be able to have a good time and respect one another and love one another. Like, that's very important to me. I certainly have members of my own family that do not agree with me, but we get together and we laugh, and I think that's the most important medicine for where we are as a country, you know? And. Yeah. Anyway, but I just. Yeah, but I feel. I feel troubled sometimes by friends who say, like, no, I would never have a conversation with somebody or I would never, like, let my kids around or let them go to this event or whatever. It's like that's. Then you're just further isolating yourself into these echo chambers. And it's. Diversity of human experience is really important for exposing kids and ourselves to remember that we're all human. So that's kind of where I feel troubled by people with the same beliefs as I do. I don't know if you experience that.

[38:24] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: I experience it, too. I mean, I'm. I was never a huge Trump person, actually. I actually, I actually had a yard sign out in my yard that said in 2016, that said, clinton Trump, tom Ketchum right in. And I got a couple of votes because, you know, I disagreed with philosophically and certain levels with both of them. Um, and I just couldn't, you know, at the time, I didn't feel comfortable putting my faith and trust in, in either one of them. Um, I still, you know, I have family, you know, who are big Trump fans. Personally. I don't care for them. He needs to keep his mouth shut. He needs to learn self control. I prefer in a, in a president, somebody who's more statesman like, more like, speak softly, carry a big stick if you're gonna, you know, walk into a room, command the room with your presence. Be professional. And when you have to make yourself heard, make yourself heard. I was very successful as a corrections officer, corrections officer in a prison of over 1200 people and only six officer officers on duty. And I worked in the low end of maximum security. I didn't have any problems with the inmates that I was what we'd called a yard dog. I worked out in the yard. I didn't like the housing units, so I never had problems with the inmates because I had that same philosophy, that ten minutes. And I always thought that was the best way to do it. And, you know, it was a scary situation. But the first time I had somebody, I was at a gas station pumping gas into a gas can. And somebody behind me says, officer, catch him. And I mean, the biggest chill went down my back and I. I turned around and I looked at him. I didn't recognize him. I said, was I a good officer or bad? He said, you were one of the better ones. I never treated somebody badly and I always gave him the respect. But when I laid the head to lay the hammer down, I sent people to the segregation. Not a lot, but when it needed it, it needed it. When it comes to, you know, people always, you know, I've had people say, you know, stupid stuff, like, somebody needs to take that guy out. That's the stuff that really embarrasses me because I look at it and I'm going, now, you know, you epitomize everything you say. The person that you don't like, you know, the. That you believe they are when you've reduced them to that level. So I get embarrassed with, you know, ignorant things like that. I. I just don't understand, you know, all of the, you know, be happy to be something. You can be all in on it, but you don't need to be unreasonable. You don't need to be a zealot or, or a fanatic.

[41:58] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah, yeah, I. Yeah, that's most reasonable, too, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Do any of the other questions resonate with you on this.

[42:19] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Politics, I mean, to me, I'm like a political wonk. To me, it's boring. Tell me somebody who did the kindest thing for you in your life.

[42:34] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Oh, the kindest thing for me in my life. So, honestly, I think of my parents. I'm very, very lucky that into adulthood have had really great relationships with them. Sadly, my dad passed away in August, suddenly. And so it's been really tough. But I find myself thinking of him often, and I think of his kindness, and he certainly was. He just was that. He was a listener. He taught me how to listen in so many ways. Our parents teach us how to love. And I see a lot of that coming out in my parenting as much as I can, I hope, you know, because I have certainly great memories of it. And then working very, very hard. You describe parents working very hard for us and making a lot of sacrifices. And he, he worked, I think since, you know, he sold newspapers as a kid on the streets of Chicago like that. Those were her, his first jobs. And he remembered like, in the winter, like, binding the newspapers and like, he worked so, so hard his entire life. And I think that those kind of things like quiet kindnesses from him just abound. And I am still, I still think of them all the time. I think they come out of me, I hope and, yeah, so I think of both of my parents, but I think of him a lot. Now. How about you? What about somebody who's been the kindest to you in your life?

[44:26] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Well, that would probably be my mom. Just my parents divorced when I was 13. She went on to take care of four kids. I, you know, just to watch her just tirelessly bust her butt, you know, she took extra jobs to pay for tuition. I mean, I ended up my senior, the reason I joined the military was my senior year of high school. Tuition was $2800. I got a job so my mom didn't have to, um, work for me. She, she worked out pay my, my younger brother and younger sister's tuition. You know, for me it was a matter of, you know, I made $3,200 and 2800 of it went to pay tuition. And the government said I made too much money to get any aid or student loans. So I ended up joining the military. But given, you know, everything that my, my mom was always there and whenever I needed to talk to her, you know, about anything, I could always talk to her about anything, you know, it was just one of those deals where we had our disagreements but she was always there and mother's love was, was, you know, always there.

[45:52] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. And how lucky we both were to have that, you know?

[46:00] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Yes, yes.

[46:02] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. Yeah. I'm drawn to a couple other questions here. What are your hopes for the future? I find that to be nice and optimistic. And then the last one, what's something that you will take from this experience? I don't know if you want to say your hopes for the future or if you'd want to share that or if you have something else.

[46:20] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: My hopes for the future, I don't. Next year we're going on a cruise. This is my first ever cruise. But we're celebrating our ten year anniversary. I would love to be able to celebrate our 20th and 25th anniversary, even though I know we're going to be really, really old. I hate to say that it sucks when you look at somebody, you go, man, they look old. Didn't I go to school with him? Oh, my. Um, but that's my. What my hopes for the future is, is just, um, when I retire, spend the rest of my time with my wife. I don't know where. I don't know when we talk about Kentucky or West Virginia or Tennessee, somewhere at the foot of some mountains and. And a nice little, you know, house. But that's what I'm hoping for, my future.

[47:17] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: That's beautiful. Nice. Nice. My hopes for the future. I mean, I'm enjoying some time with my daughter right now. Unfortunately, I was part of the layoffs in November, the company that I worked for, or laid off 6% of hundreds of people, and my job was one of them. But I'm now spending time with my daughter that I wouldn't otherwise have, and that's been really, really special. And so my hopes for the future, I mean, I hope that from my family perspective, I, you know, my. My parents were about to celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary when my father passed this year. And so I just hope for my mom that she gets settled, and I hope I can help her get there. And for my baby, I just hope that I imagine the things that she'll see in her lifetime, and I hope that she sees this lot of good, and I hope that we maintain peace and stability in our country, and I hope that she finds a lot of love in her life. And, you know, for my husband, and I hope we can be good stewards to get her there. And for the future of our country, I kind of hope the same, you know, peace, stability, and prosperity.

[48:49] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: You know, that's. That's nice, too. We were, unfortunately, not able to have any kids. Some medical issues came up, scare. My wife needed to, you know, have a hysterectomy, so we weren't able to have kids. But, gosh, you guys are blessed to have a kid. I wanted some of my own, and she had wanted a family of ten. I don't know if I could have dealt with ten, but I wanted, you know, at least a couple. So you guys are very blessed to have a child. Again, congratulations.

[49:30] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: I'm very sorry to hear that. Thank you.

[49:35] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: You're welcome. Was I who you expected me to be?

[49:46] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: I think you were full of surprises. And even very good ways, I think. I wasn't surprised. Just, I thought maybe, and maybe based on the way I filled out my survey, I don't know, but I thought maybe I'd get somebody more, more polar opposite, you know, but I. I was hoping, and I'm pleasantly. I found it to be very pleasant, and I found that everything that you said, honestly, to be very reasonable and, you know, based in reasonable human experiences, you know, it was really cool to learn about you, and it was really cool to get to share, but it was very, it was even cooler to get to, you know, just spend some time with somebody who's, you know, elsewhere in the country and doing different stuff and different stage of life and all that. I think it's been really cool. So. Yeah. How about you? Is it. Am I who you expected me to be?

[50:46] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: I didn't know what to expect. Like I said, I'm at that point where I know the polarization that you talk about. I wasn't sure, you know, for me to. I was very happy that, you know, having brought up the subject of the Dobbs case didn't really cause us to have any problems. I mean, I. Again, I go back to the constitution. I think that when we have, we sorted out that if we can live by at least the first ten amendments, if we can believe that we can have the freedom of speech, the freedom of religion, the freedom to be ourselves on down the line and honor those and have a civil society. That's what's more important. I had, again, a lot of my friends would, in the beginning, would have described themselves probably as liberals. They tended to be more progressive, but then again, the more progressive ones refused to talk to me after a while because, you know, I, I stick to my, my values. I, I think life is valuable. And I don't know in any aspect where I could see that. I could be on any panel anywhere at any time to say that person's life isn't valuable. And if the government truly represents the people, they have to have that conscience as well. Did you know, in 1837, Michigan was, was created as a state? It was. Eleven years later, the state of Michigan outlawed capital punishment. So for almost, you know, 200 years now, capital punishment, it was outlawed in the state of Michigan. I'm sorry, I'm a political wonk. So, you know, but the more I look at it and I say, yeah, life is valuable. Moving from the person as a believe in capital punishment to saying, no, I don't mind isolating you from a civil society and putting you in prison, but I don't think I have the right to take your life.

[53:16] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah.

[53:17] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: You know, so I wasn't sure what to expect from you because you never know these days. It's a toss of a coin.

[53:27] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. Yeah.

[53:28] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: And I truly, and I think us being, you know, you saying that, you know, you were surprised that we had a lot in common. I go back to what I said earlier in that I think we all want the same things. We just differ on how we're going to get from point a to point b. That didn't surprise me at all, you know, that I kind of figured I was a little vindicated by saying, yeah, everybody kind of wants the same thing. And I found that it might be anecdotal, you know, that I find it a lot, but I truly believe that more than, you know, fact. It's more than a fact to me.

[54:09] THOMAS KETCHUM KETCHUM: Yeah. All right, guys, I've got to wrap up the recording. That's okay. All right. Thank you, Justin. And thank you, Thomas Ketchum This has been really cool.

[54:19] GRETCHEN WALLISCH WALLISCH: Thank you as well. And thanks, Justin. I hope we didn't differ too much or stray too much from what your objective was to get us to talk about.