Haley Thomas and Susan Trotz

00:02 My name is Susan trotz. I'm 63 years old today's date is Wednesday, February 10th, 2021. I am recording from Jamaica Plain Massachusetts. My partner's name is Haley Thomas and we are friends.

00:22 You can go Kelly. Okay. Hi. My name is Haley Thomas. I am 67 years old. Today's date is Wednesday, February 10th, 2021. I live in Dedham Massachusetts in the name of my partner is Susan trotz and we're friends awesome Kelly. So I am so glad that we're able to do this with storycorps and tell your story and maybe we should just start me at the beginning. I think maybe we should start maybe around when you're 18 years old and getting married, okay?

01:00 Having the opportunity dude to do this really got me reminiscing about my wife a bit. And actually what I was thinking back on because I was doing it in terms of my sexual identity was being a teenager and when I was a teenager hanging out with my friends, I never got into the boy crazy. Oh my goodness. How's it going to be to have our first kiss at 8 to me that was kind of all nonsense and I remember standing at the bus stop for school one day when a friend of mine male female couple clock to buy in a friend of mine after a few seconds. Once they pass said. Wow. Did you see him? What a cutie in at that point. I realized I hadn't even noticed him. I was watching her and that she

02:00 Given me a clue, but it really didn't and I just kind of went along on my Merry way. I I was a late bloomer. I didn't start dating until I was seventeen and that's really my first real dating partner was my future husband Michael and we dated for a year and a half or so and we got married when I was 18 for the next over the next five years. We had three kids and I settled into being really a stay-at-home mom and I like that roll.

02:44 So that's how my life kind of started out.

02:47 And then there was a little transition. I mean we're going over a lot of years and pretty quickly, but there was you know, you're raising kids three kids and you're 18 you got married and we were able to go past high school at one point.

03:05 I I stopped at high school. I graduated when I was 17 and I met Michael in my senior year the beginning of my senior year and we got married like a year after I graduated high school. I was going to go to college. I was going to go to nursing school in at the last minute decided. I really wasn't ready for college. I guess I was a late bloomer in a lot of ways and so got married instead and decided to it was really when my kids were in junior high and high school that I thought. Okay. I'm ready for college now and decided to go to college and it was really in college like the latter half of my undergrad that I met my friend Joe a woman a very out-and-proud lesbian.

04:05 I think she identify this a lesbian as soon as she could talk and she was very vibrant and she was Love Me or Leave Me This is who I am and I was really attracted to that and we became friends and it was really through that friendship that I realized that I was a lesbian and that was really who I was I finally felt like I belonged and so I think you probably starting in graduate school. She and I got closer as friends and I started spending weekends at her house in New Hampshire.

04:54 I would go there once or twice a month and spend the weekend. It was a comfortable place. It was my second home and it was really funny because in Massachusetts I was running around as this straight person married with kids and in New Hampshire. I was only known as a lesbian we hung around with all lesbians a few gay men, but primarily lesbians. We went to lgbtq clubs and dance halls. I remember going to this place and I think it was in Haverhill. I don't even remember the name of it, but it was so freaking to see women dancing with women and men dancing with man and this woman just came up and gave me my first lesbian kiss and I remember stomach so blown away.

05:54 Thinking yeah. Yeah. This is what's missing in my life and never saw the woman again, you know, it was just kind of a hit-and-run kind of a thing. But for me it was so moving. It was so moving. And so, you know, I really my friend Joe really it sounds funny, but she really taught me how to be a lesbian what it was all about the kinds of talks we had that were I could never imagine having with my Straight friends. It was free and it was a comfortable place to be I remember when I would go up there on weekends. The first thing I would do is fall asleep take a nap. I think I was just feeling so free and so

06:47 Unencumbered by the straightness of being in Massachusetts that I was exhausted. I was exhausted and needed to fall asleep for you know several hours before I could sort of join in conversations than and whatnot, but I looked forward to those weekends and I think it was in 2000 maybe 2002 13

07:19 14 that I met a lesbian coworker or if she was actually a collateral relationship and do we we got friendly we enjoyed going out to eat together and just having conversations and I remember thinking one day. Wow. This is really turning into a major friendship. Not a sexual one at all, but a real friendship and this is in Massachusetts. I'm straight in Massachusetts. I know and I remember saying to her. I don't know that we can be friends. I don't know that I can switch hat.

08:03 I'm the straight person in Massachusetts, and I'm only a lesbian in New Hampshire and we both laugh about it now, but at the time it felt really threatening to me to change hats Midstream and it's seems to be a lot of thrilling experiences from college and then visiting and hanging out with Joe and then having a friend so there's a lot of new experiences, but it also very complicated.

08:33 Devore very complicated for me because I lived most of my adult life in the straight world.

08:41 And it wasn't until my friend Joe and I could compartmentalize that to New Hampshire and so it took some adjustment, but I think really I had been gearing up.

08:58 To at least thinking about coming out in Massachusetts and I'm not sure that I really ever thought I would be able to do that because I now have three teenage grown kids and I just thought I don't know if I could ever tell them and how could I come out if I couldn't tell my kids what were the other kinds of things that happened to you that made you evolve and change to get more confidence?

09:31 Before we get to telling the kids cuz you know, what were those other experiences that just made you feel stronger? Cuz you said you were living sort of two lives one in Massachusetts won in New Hampshire was I was I think one of the main things was in in about 2,000 I actually came out to my husband and we had a long conversation about it. He he was such a kind and compassionate guy and she was really okay with you know, as you can as much as you can because he was okay and wasn't very critical and his only request is that you know, we become housemates.

10:18 Because we didn't feel like things were broken and that name they needed to be fixed. And neither one of us were ready to move on from that relationship. But I think coming out to him. I soon after that as far as therapists and came out to her and we started talking about it and talking about who I wasn't with my identity was and I think telling my husband freed me up to at least explore explore that and really the more I thought about it in the more I talked about it the more they was this push to be my authentic self if there was a point where

11:04 I felt I was living a lie.

11:09 And in really needed to figure out how not to have to stay in that pattern and it was making you tired to go to sleep in New Hampshire soon. As you got there. There was something you were trying to shut off before you went there really was it was exhausting, you know, I would be with friends and we will be having conversations may be about our husbands or our sexuality, you know, my female friends and I couldn't participate fully in the conversations. I remember being at at work and being invited. This was probably in the nineties being invited to a party you no further with work friends and I showed up and I was the only straight person there.

12:07 And you know, it was all lesbians and people were had came with partners and I thought what am I doing here? And this is really

12:17 This is really during the early transition of my mindset. And so it's funny when I look back now there were so many Telltale the signs then I just didn't pick up on and just didn't hear but the process was tiring the process they were certainly lots of good parts about it. I enjoyed my relationship was Joe. It was just a friendship, but we were able to share any of the conversation with Michael which I do another friends to help you with that or was that a private conversation?

12:59 My conversation that I had with your husband husband just to say that you were coming out where you able to tell people you told him. Yes. I really was in it was really a mix back.

13:13 I only really came out to my therapist in one friend at the time and the it was interesting. My therapist was very don't label yourself. You don't need to label yourself.

13:30 That's when I realized I needed a new start and then we were able to talk about it later. But initially she really thought that I was just going through a phase.

13:46 And she I think you know later she said, I'm really sorry. I didn't take you. Seriously. She said I really thought it was just a phase and you know, you would get over it. So, you know at that point I really kind of closed off from telling or talking to straight people. Have you told folks in New Hampshire that new had sort of made that leap I did talk to them. We had long conversations and that's where I really blossomed sexuality, you know, and my sexual identity was in New Hampshire. We had long conversations about

14:28 About authentic being your authentic self about how we often had conversation. I mean out stories and people talked about how hard or easy it was. It was a place where I could put my fears about how the heck am I going to tell my kids? What are they going to think? Are they going to feel like I've been lying all this time.

14:53 I mean they were certainly old enough and I think you know, I was that far removed from the generation or the people who were losing their kids when they came out they want to talk a little about that. Some people might not remember those days. Although we still have those days but you remember that little a little but for me it was because I wasn't living it. I was still very straight and and hadn't really even come to terms with my sexual identity at that point, but I did hear stories and which came back to haunt me when I started thinking about coming out and once I started making a lesbian friends it even solidified it even more I have a you know, where her friend who lost her kids or three kids and

15:53 Husband threatened to is to commit her and it was freaking it was frightening to think that although I wouldn't lose my kids in that way. Maybe I could lose them alone emotionally.

16:11 And those were the stories that you might not have been conscious about when you were coming out earlier, but that the world said this is a certain way to be and so maybe it just didn't give you a freedom to be able to express who you wanted to be really didn't it really frightens me a lot and I remember thinking one of the things that I learned in New Hampshire was about the straight privilege that I've had Massachusetts. I could walk down the street holding. My husband's hand we could kiss in the car, you know, we could hug. I certainly couldn't do that. If I was in a lesbian relationship and I remember in New Hampshire, you know, I went to give my friend Joe a hug which shouldn't have been any big deal because we weren't sexually involved anyways, but she was like no no no, no. No, she said, you know he was

17:11 Very clearly a Butch lesbian and she said people take notice of that kind of stuff and she said There Are Places she said we happened. I can't remember where we were but she said this is one of the few places where that's not comfortable for me and I thought wow if she is Love Me or Leave me out and proud of the way she is and that's scary for her. You know, that really was a sit up and take notice for me a good example of how people who have different privileges don't know what privilege they have until they experience something like that. You really you really really don't I know I am in a relationship. Now I live with a female partner and I forget sometimes because I lived 60 I didn't come out until I was 62, you know my kids and for me.

18:11 That was coming out. Not you coming out with my husband was a different type of coming out for me. But coming out is a off. My authentic self was when I told my kids. So let's talk about that. You got three kids. I have three wonderful kids. So I absolutely adore. How did you decide that? You would even do it? Like when when did you decide like? Okay. I'm telling them. You know, the funny thing is I was having this tremendous internal pressure to come out.

18:47 And like I said, the thing that really shocked me was telling my kids if I hadn't had my kids. I think I would have come out when I told my husband but my fear of coming out in telling my kids really is what stock meat and I really thought I would never come out. I thought you know, I'm I'm not miserable. I think you know, I would love to have a relationship with a woman but I'm okay. If this is how I live for the rest of my life and in spite of that that pressure that internal pressure on myself to to be who I really was and one of my kids my oldest son came to visit one day and we were just sitting there and honestly just popped out of my mouth.

19:42 I can't even remember the conversation before or after you know, where you were and where you were sitting on the couch. He was sitting in a chair across the room in the den and we were having a conversation and I just it just popped out I said

20:05 I'm a lesbian like that and I just remember him saying.

20:15 Mom I had no idea I think my gaydar sucks and in other than him saying thank you for being able to share that with me. I don't remember any of the other conversation. Honestly, it felt like I put it on the front page of a newspaper, you know, or it got aired over the TV or something. It was just a huge huge but your memory is a of him being affirming to you. He was very affirming and I thought, you know, I was in hindsight. I wasn't surprised I think in some respects. I thought we had an inkling. I thought he knew.

21:06 And I think my surprise was that he had no clue actually and then I think it was about two weeks later. You know, I was certainly trying to figure out okay, you can come out to one kid without coming out to the other two, so I need to get my act together and I need to think about how I'm going to do this and keep my sanity at the same time and about two weeks later. My daughter called me and asked if she could come over she was working from home and her her internet wasn't working and she came over and I remember thinking, you know this to be an opportunity is only the two of us and before I even knew what I was doing again out of Pop clearly this pressure took over.

22:02 And she said I knew she she knew and she said that her and her husband had talked about it and we're kind of taking bets on when or if I would ever come out and you know, it was wonderful, but at the same time I'm like all of that angst. I didn't need to go through, you know, well you just you didn't know if you had to it's so nice to hear those stories, right? Because we hear of any other stories in our community where people lost family and so it's so nice to hear this to do. I have so many friends whose families are not accepting who

22:45 You know the families really became fractured because of this people don't talk to people kids don't want that much to do with their parents. It's you know, and then I have other people like myself whose whose family are accepting how much did they get for the back?

23:07 You should cash in on it. Somehow you should cash in on that that.

23:14 Overwhelmed

23:16 That's the only word. I I was shocked at myself and very overwhelmed that I had gotten to this point. If it gave me what I needed to say, okay, I came out to two of my kids. It's time for me to really step up to the plate and not just let it pop out and at that point I called my youngest son and said, can I take you out for brunch and

23:47 And and told him it wasn't a surprise that I told them cuz I you know at that point I was doing it on my own and he said I know I've always known you know, and and they couldn't explain to me how they knew but they knew and you know, I believe them and the weight the weight of my shoulder was huge.

24:16 The other thing that happened was I spent most of my adult life being depressed.

24:22 And you know in a lot of that time on medication and had just come to the terms that I would be on antidepressants for the rest of my life. Once I came out that was the end of that. I haven't been depressed since and medications are you know a thing of the past and clearly there was there was something you know, this was something I really needed to do and that's amazing. That's not the case for everybody. Right? So sometimes medication stay and that's fine. But for you that was a Telltale sign I was doing the right thing. I was doing the right thing and what other things happened between you and the kids afterwards and you feel like a difference in your relationship. Once you were saying you're you are at your authentic self with him.

25:17 I think after I came out that if being out and free and wanting to be who I was kind of took over for about a year or so, I think I was a little obnoxious. I think I talked about being a lesbian a lot and in so I came out to them the beginning of 2014 I was so I was 60 when I came out and later that year in October. I decided to venture out to the community and went to an LGBT lunch in.

26:03 And knew I was home knew that I was where I needed to be and I think having other having a community really took off the pressure from my kids having to listen to lesbian. And in fact one of my kids said

26:26 I bet the first year mom you it was okay, but you really did and it's much as they're a fine with it and I have a grandson and he's fine with it.

26:40 You know, they don't need to hear it all the time. And I don't think they really want to hear it all the time. And that doesn't speak to them being fine. I'm not fine. It just speaks to you know, I need another place for it Mom and Grandma sexuality and not every kid wants to have the conversation with them their parents with it all the time when I thought about doing this I thought about doing it with my kids and I thought you knew my relationship with them is is fine the way it is. They don't need to be part of you know, they certainly are a huge part of my coming-out story, but they don't need to have it on tape where there other things that you didn't now in Massachusetts that brought you more in the lgbtq community and did Joe know about it how that all works.

27:33 You know at some point Joe and I are relationship just naturally involved and she became very involved in a partner and in our relationships just a relationship just kind of petered out naturally and so we never really talked about it. But but it was a natural ending for our relationship and it was okay and then and once I joined the community I went to anything and everything I could what was that? What was that at the time I started going to dance classes LGBT dance classes and

28:24 When I first start signed up, I

28:29 I signed up for one on the Strait of a gay-friendly night and one on a dance class on with just LGBT folks. This is with Liz. Yeah, it was funny because I went to the LGBT one person. I was very comfortable and it's like yeah, I really like this and I actually decided to be a leader instead of a follower and that I think was the first time in my life that I was never considered myself a leader on anything and she's so good at that and everybody trying out to be a leader or follower and dance as opposed to what people say men and women of Famer but you know, it's just leader or follower. She's so good about that. Yeah, and it was so natural. It was so natural, you know, when you change partners and you danced with males and females and you just have it it was fun. It was just a great.

29:29 Fun experience in I've always loved dancing. So it was a really nice niche for me to to have in my life. But in addition to that I went to I joined rally and I remember what's rally tell people what rally is is.

29:50 LBT

29:55 55 + women and an eye that was banned by and transwomen lesbi lesbi defiant exactly 55 + and I remember when I was first approached in in mm. I think it was 2015 and my first reaction was it's not a dating group is it I don't want to belong to a group and it don't got no just come and see what it's all about. And in at one point, I joined a committee and I was going to dance classes and they offered a lot of activities. I went to the activities and my eye really my life became more about community.

30:48 Then anything when I was at dance class I met this woman my current partner Angie we were both leaders and she was a great dancer which is what attracted me to her. And until I changed to be a follower so that I could dance with her definitely just you know, it wasn't even necessarily a sexual attract distraction. I was just attracted to her as a dancer and score.

31:21 You can tell yourself that that's good.

31:29 And so

31:31 She and I became friends and my husband died unexpectedly in 2016 and at that point she and I became more than friends and you know, since then our relationship is evolved and we're now living together and I'm kind of living where I always thought I should be in the way. I thought I should be you know, that is awesome. Story Haley, you know, this is a good place you want to add anything to it.

32:06 To the story or it's just it's I think the only thing I would add is I'm in I'm where I need to be and I love you saying that that's the reason why it seems so natural ending up our story. It's where you want to be but you even know if you were looking back. What do you think?

32:31 I don't regret anything. I don't regret people sometimes my straight friend say you wish you would come out earlier. No, it happened the way it supposed to be. I have my kids. I had you know, my eyes really had a nice life up until now and it's still nice and now it's just Fuller and it's such a privilege to have this conversation with you on storycorps. It's totally awesome. I'm so glad that you were willing to tell it. Thank you for doing it with me.

33:06 It's really been fun. I was nervous coming on but it's really it's really been fun. And it's another level of my coming out. I'm so glad you were sharing it.

33:23 That's great.