Halley Harris and Karuna Duval

00:03 My name is karuna Duval. I'm 58 years old. It is May 15th, 2021. I am in Marysville Washington and I am interviewing Halley Harris.

00:19 My name is Holly Harris. I am 44 years old which I decide to look up cuz I didn't remember today. Is May 15th 2021. I'm currently in Mary's. I'm not in Marysville. I'm in Mount Vernon Washington and I am talking with my interviewer friend and co-worker karuna.

00:40 Thanks, Holly. I'm so glad that you agreed to do this. I know that I know that you were in the military and we haven't really talked much about it. I haven't really asked about it. And I know that we've, you know, kind of talked in passing and as different things come up, but I wanted to interview you because I really wanted to hear a little bit more about your service end and a little bit. Kind of more about you related to this, to your, to your military service. Cuz I I don't have military service folks in my family. I don't have any connection to anybody who has ever been in the military. So that's some of the reasons why I wanted to interview you about this. So I know that you please correct me. Funny. If I'm wrong with any of this either. I know that you joined the military after 9/11.

01:39 No, actually I got out a little bit after 9:11. Okay, I would like to begin serving when 9/11 happened OKC, so you're very old. Yes. Yes. So, why did you join the military? What, what branch did you join? And just some of those particulars but more like, why did you join sure, so I was graduated from high school and my big plans to be a veterinarian out of high school did not pan out for a multitude of reasons. I was working in retail and I thought I don't want to do this forever. My mother was in the Air Force. My father was in the Army. I had a grandfather and an uncle to Uncle's in the Navy.

02:30 And so it just was a kind of a part of our Lives. Not that it was expected, but just a lot of history there.

02:38 And so I started looking around and thinking what else can I do besides retail? And I started looking at different options and I found a friend of mine that I used to a school with that had joined the Air Force. I found out and I was trying to locate him and in the process of that ended up going down to talk to a recruiter for the Army and he said he would help me if I listen to his picture about the Army. It was just good timing since I kind of was Wayward and didn't really have a direction I was going. So I talked to him, I talk to an Air Force. Recruiter. I talked to Navy recruiter and I did talk to a marine recruiter and after talking to all of those different people and sussing out, what felt like the best fit for me. I decided to

03:31 Say, well, I'm not getting any younger. Let's just join the Army.

03:37 And,

03:38 Yeah, that's that's how I picked the army. That was just almost two years out of high school. So that was in 1996. And because I chose a profession in aviation that came with a six-year minimum.

03:58 So I that's one thing that time, maybe people don't know too much about how you get into the service. If you haven't known anyone, you go down and take a nap after two test. And you do a physical. And when you do the aptitude tests, they select them jobs for you for the Army.

04:16 In some of the branches of the army, they don't have specific jobs that you get, they just put you in a particular field and then they saw us out where you're going to go after that.

04:27 But for the Army, you actually get to sign up and pick a job before you actually sign your paperwork to go in, which was one of the things I I liked about it.

04:37 So when I did my aptitude test, it put me pretty high on the mechanical side and they offered me, a few different mechanic jobs. They offered me laundry and bath specialist Fort. I think they offer everyone just because of the two year. Enlistment.

04:53 And they offered me linguist.

04:58 Yeah, I got to say I do I don't regret not doing it. I do regret not taking more than 30 seconds to make that.

05:11 So then I went in during the military for six years and a helicopter repairman.

05:20 So, where did you end up going to boot camp? And what was that experience? Like so boot camp for me was South Fort Jackson, South Carolina. It was now remember I joined in May so I was in boot camp. Basically June and July the hottest parts to be in the south.

05:43 And that was,

05:47 Difference is very crowded. I grew up as an only child and I was now in a bag. Full of 60 people sharing every single thing and there was a very fast pace in the military, of course, having some of that military history in my family, probably made it feel a little less distracting or a difficult because they took those traits for themselves like being on time, you know, being punctual doing what you're saying going to do, that kind of thing and taking instruction.

06:24 I do think back on it. And even later on, in my Army Career thought. There's no way I could have done this and I was older, not only physically, but, but just getting yelled at all the time, you know, you don't get yelled at that often, if you're really not doing anything wrong, but,

06:44 I actually enjoy its basic training when I was still in basic training. I thought, oh, I'm going to retire from the Army. I'm going to be a drill sergeant.

06:56 So from basic training, where did you go after that? After basic training in the army? They send you to what's called a it Advanced individual training. And That Was Then Fort Eustis, Virginia. I went there for 4 months to learn how to work on Apache helicopters, and that was pretty great. Again. That was kind of late summer into fall. So I was there from kind of July to October.

07:25 And what was great about that school for me, was that I actually ended up being in night class. So there was probably if I have to guess maybe 200 people at the school, maybe less maybe hundred fifty and there was only about 30 or 40 of us that were on nights. So all of the facilities, everything that we did, as a night class with a much smaller group of us.

07:53 And it actually felt a lot more relaxed. Like all of the higher up. Brass was usually there during the day and we would just be coming home from night class when everybody else is at doing PT, so just to be

08:07 Smarty pants has with run off the bus and start doing PT without PT morning, physical.

08:16 Not my favorite part of the army. So yeah, they do. I'll be out there, doing push-ups and sit-ups and we jump off the bus and they were just waking up. So we were just coming home, wide awake with jump out there, start doing, push ups with them just to be funny.

08:34 That was a good time. So you learned how to repair Apache helicopters. Yes.

08:45 Helicopter. I don't what I mean. What did I mean? Black Hawk Down? That's all I know is that sir, sir? So there were Blackhawks where I was pretty much everywhere. Blackhawks are in a lot of places. Blackhawks, are a transport helicopter for the most part Apaches are attack helicopters. So if you've most people would probably have seen a cobra, which has kids and two big blades and they're pretty skinny there in a lot of older movies, but Apaches are basically a bigger beefier COBRA. They have wheels instead of skins.

09:24 They have two engines that instead of one and they have four blades. Instead of two. They have two pilots one in the front. And one in the back, one is the main pilot and the other one is called a co-pilot Gunner seat. That's in the front.

09:37 The Apaches as they they changed as I was in but they have basically a 30 mm gun and they can carry Hellfire missiles or rockets. And on the nose of them. They have like an infrared camera that can find Targets pretty far out, several miles. If I remember, as I was getting out, there was a newer model that had what we called a cheese block on top, where several Apaches could use that one big radar and find enemies in the distance.

10:10 And they were often used in Scout missions by themselves or they were used to protect troops, cover convoys, that kind of thing.

10:21 What did you like about doing their work? That is an interesting question that if you're asking me, what did I like about it before going in? Like, I didn't really know anything about it. It's not like I am sorry. There's a train going by.

10:40 It's not that I thought before going into the army, all I want to work on some death machine. That wasn't my intention.

10:48 I have always been kind of mechanical and so working on the Apaches sounded kind of cool and exotic and the little video they show you.

10:58 And I like the, I like working on the Airfield. I liked all that kind of interaction it like I've always liked watching helicopters and planes come in and out. Even though I absolutely hate flying which is the irony of everything.

11:12 Luckily, I didn't have to find them cuz they were two pilot aircraft. So.

11:17 I really mostly it wasn't that. I liked more than anything. The helicopter work, more than anyting. I like the camaraderie. But as far as picking the job, it really was just fun to be. So say, I was a female mechanic. Yeah, they're not very many of us. Probably a lot more now, since 96.

11:42 Not very many at the time. And how many females were in your

11:48 Grew up. I don't they call it a company. I don't know. Anything I do is think about the lingo. So that's okay. For the most part there were but tunes and then there were companies and then those battalions, and then there's Brigade. So the platoon or Squad is a smaller group. Like again, it depends on the unit, you're in the berries a little bit, but

12:17 That would generally be anywhere from 10 to 20 people. A company is going to be some us a bigger but small group it's harder to explain when you don't have a contacts. My company would be like, say 200 people people wise and that's usually like four companies, A B, C D. And then the company is overarching like for example,

12:46 First of the hundred first, third of the hundred first, those are some of the units that I was in that were.

12:54 That would be the Battalion. So Bravo Company, first of the hundred first, I might be in a smaller platoon of Bravo Company or Charlie Company or Delta company in 1st Battalion, 101st Division and the division. That's obviously several hundred people. That's a lot like normally.

13:21 A general or something. We're being charged. We're like a company would have a company Commander, which will be like a captain, and a battalion would be somewhere like a lieutenant colonel or colonel in a long time and I get my memory. So, in the, in the group that you were working in regularly, how many females were there? And I mean,

13:45 I hardly any sometimes I was the only one so it wasn't like

13:50 I really liked it.

13:53 That there were a few times when there are a few other females and

13:59 I kind of grew up in that environment.

14:03 With mostly males, even though in basic training and in a i t and our training environments, we were in female, but you know, Battalion stand in Barracks just with us but it was always coed education. So, even from that very beginning. It was always male-dominated, even though all the females were in one Barracks, there were several more men in the company.

14:28 So by the time I got to my unit it was just a normal thing to be one of the few females and it wasn't g. I Jane style. I mean, I wasn't having to shave my head. I wasn't getting, you know.

14:43 Terribly abused but that also depends on what where you are. I mean, I absolutely knowledge that. There are some really terrible things to happen to people in the military and in particular. There's been some pretty terrible things to happen to females. I just

14:59 Got pretty lucky that. I think probably the most severe thing to happen to me with some sexual harassment, but for the most part they were really welcoming and it just felt like a bunch of Brothers.

15:13 Sometimes, you know, when I'm think about it, when I get away from the Army and I come home for a while or something, then it would feel different going back. But I really, I said, I really didn't notice it.

15:25 Until many years later that I thought about really being the only female because I really had been so kind of rough and tumble and play with the boys.

15:35 So it's uncomfortable for me, and it sounds like even the difficulty of the sexual harassment experience wasn't enough to to really be.

15:50 As traumatic as some of the other experiences of that have been reported by women in the in the military or wasn't. I mean, I I handled it in the moment. It was a bit more of a peer pressure, harassment situation, where I was on guard Duty with a guy. And he was trying to say, oh, let's go off and do whatever and I'm like your dumb ass in some other choice words to but I know the only time I'm not even ever came up for me again, was when I heard that same individual had been harassing, some other females are worse ways, and some of the leadership was not believing them. And so I absolutely stepped in and said, don't know, this is real and you need to believe them because this is happening. So he can even then it was just like now but even more. So wasn't talked about that.

16:45 Female generally didn't get believed when I told a story. Yeah.

16:49 Well, and it's good that you were able to step up and and say, you know, yes, this is real. It's an experience that, you know, was was enough of a reality, but wasn't traumatic. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it didn't, it's doesn't take. It doesn't take somebody having a trauma, to be able to say, Hey, you know, this is real. Yeah, I would love to expand on that. If you don't mind, I won't go for that time. Just been reading a lot about drama lately and my work is at hospice in particular. I think I found

17:29 That I have heard the stereotype that I think a lot of people think anybody that went to war or anyting anyone that's been in the military that the veteran has PTSD. I just want to break that stereotype right now and just say,

17:47 You can get PTSD from anyting does not have to be wore number one. So it's it's absolutely reasonable for someone that was not a veteran to have PTSD. That's number one. Number two is the same here, two people side by side. Could go to war and experienced the same traumatic event. And one of them could come out with PTSD and the other one could come out as exposed to trauma, but not have severe reaction on going like PTSD. And I guess I should say she is supposed to do now.

18:24 So that's a couple things to know the, the other biggest thing for me. I think personally is,

18:32 I have some difficulty with my own identity as a veteran. I am very proud of my service. I don't regret doing it at all.

18:42 But when people talk about being a veteran, it's really hard to answer people's questions because they have an expectation, especially after, you know, America, having gone through the longest war America has ever been in with Iraq and Afghanistan.

18:58 Now the expectation that if you were in the military, you've been to war and that's just not the case. I mean, we know people served like I did in times in between major Wars.

19:12 I didn't get deployed, but it was a quote-unquote peacekeeping mission in Bosnia and Yugoslavia. But there were plenty of people that I've met through hospice service or what not that either were serving during World War II or serving during Vietnam or Korea, but they didn't, actually deploy. They didn't actually go to war and even if they did, they didn't see combat. So, I just want to put it out there for people that that's, that's something that veterans, that I know struggle with his own identity. And especially when people want them to take advantage of veterans benefits, it can really be difficult for people to accept that they are veteran, or that they deserve those benefits. If they didn't go to war, I've met, I've met patients for the recording Holly and I both work for a hospice organization and we often have patience in common. So yeah, I've had patients, who stayed at that exact thing. Well, I didn't say.

20:12 Combat, so I don't want to get Pinder have an honor ceremony or anything like that. So I did not know that you went to Bosnia. What was that? Like, and what did you do? I mean, you repairing you were still repairing on helicopters, right? I was so I got out of basic training and a i t I came home for a month and then I was stationed in Germany, which I loved loved. Loved, loved loved her knee.

20:41 For so many other reasons, but I was only there for about, I want to say three months and I got deployed with a different unit because my unit was just coming back from Bosnia. They were one of the very first ones to go down and they were there for almost a year and they were just coming back and another unit in Germany was going down. So I was deployed with a small group of people from another unit to this other group that I didn't know should be deployed in Bosnia for 7 months. That got really complicated because when they came back, my original unit was going back down to Bosnia.

21:23 So we cross paths twice, which led to some other existential distress from not being with my own unit. But when I serve, their people actually came out of Bosnia even with PTSD because there were more than a million mines laid everywhere and for former Yugoslavia, and it was a really big deal to never ever walk off the path, never walk into the grass because anywhere that there was a path, they had already cleared the mines and we had at one place that we were stationed where Oliver.

22:02 Tents were set up and and Chow halls and things like that. And then we got on a bus every morning and we drive along this dirt road over to the Airfield. And I would have to say hell of a two or three times a week, the bus would have to wait in route because the exponents division was blowing up a landmine on the side of the road.

22:25 And I see your face right now. I see your reaction to this. It, I don't know if it was because I was twenty and Invincible or 21 at that point. I was turning.

22:38 If I decide that young mentality of like, I'm never going to die. I don't know, but it didn't occur to me to be scared. I probably should have there were plenty of times when you know, we have a quick reactionary force that would go out if there was a threat or something and then they shoot guns to celebrate. So there was plenty of times that there would be somebody's birthday or somebody's wedding and there'd be all this gunfire right outside of her base. Then you start getting used to that noise, as nothing out of the ordinary.

23:14 We had guard Duty. There was 24-hour guard duty every every day and you had to take turns. So at least once a week. I was out on guard Duty with a fully loaded rifle and the Tower Guardian guardian are bass. So that's up. And then, you know, we did get to do some fun things to do when we are in Bosnia.

23:36 We got to a very few of us. Got to take a trip to Sarajevo, which was eye-opening and heartbreaking and incredible all the same time.

23:49 And sorry about, you know, of course, we're there for the peacekeeping mission because of their genocide and their war. And when I was in Sarajevo, I look up on this Hillside and I mean it's huge and it's all a mess cemetery and you can tell just by walking down the streets in the in the town. It was all women and children. There was almost no men of almost any age.

24:19 That was a stark contrast and then on the way to Sarajevo, there was just people standing in their doorways with rifles, you know, that was normal.

24:31 But we also got the site. See the old Olympic stadium in Sarajevo and it was there was just, you know, gunshots everywhere. I've seen pictures of Sarajevo since then and it looks amazing. They really come back to life, but it was pretty traumatic to see all the gunfire and Devastation was the war over, then or was it wending down or what? I mean, is there any know that? That was pretty much done, by the time we got down there or by the time I got down there?

25:03 There is a little skirmishes here and there, but nothing, I mean, it was solely, a peacekeeping mission at that point.

25:13 And so you were there for how long I was there for 7 months and then where'd you go? What happened? After that? I came back to Germany and I extended for another year. So, including the seven months in Bosnia. I was in Germany for three years, and then I came back and got stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

25:34 And I was there for until I got out in 2002.

25:40 So you were in the Army when 9/11 happened. I was what was that? Like, of course, I've heard of many, many stories from all different kind of people about where they were. That means talk about trauma that once a cultural trauma that and generational that that we're all

26:00 Having to live with that everybody that was alive during that time, specially those of people in New York living through that. But I was, I had gone to my PT, my physical training in the morning. I was back home and I just I live just maybe two miles off of Base. So I was back home. I just got out of the shower. I was watching the news and I thought it was a movie. I didn't realize it. Was the new that first and as I was watching the second plane hit I realized at that point. This is not a movie cuz it's terrible. Hurried up and got finished with what I was doing. Got in the car drove to base, listening to the radio on the way, the news radio on the way to work, and they hit the Pentagon. And then, by the time I got to base, its again, is only, like 2 miles. Did, they lock down bass. We ended up staying on base for the next.

26:58 I think two nights.

27:01 And that first day, we were already packing our stuff up because we're supposed to go on a training Mission Down Louisiana for a month. And of course, everyone was glued to the news trying to actually work and pack our stuff up for this training exercise. In the meantime. We're watching this over and over just like everyone else in America.

27:21 And not sure what's going to happen, you know, where we going to war like right now. And so every day would change we would have a briefing meeting every morning. Are we going to go to work and every day it would change, you know, sometimes we were going to be packing up for a rail Transit. Sometimes we are packing it for an air transit. We did end up going down to do the training, even all during the training, they kept saying, you know, we could go, anytime we can leave from here.

27:48 We didn't, you know, in the meantime, everybody in the government's figuring out what they're going to do.

27:55 And my units did get caught up to go to Afghanistan.

28:00 I was in line to get my I already got my MBA or my arm doesn't gear. I was in line to get my atropine injections in case we had nerve agent poisoning.

28:14 And they pulled me out of line and said, you're not going. You're too close to getting out.

28:19 Wow.

28:22 Was.

28:26 That was a relief and it was a devastation.

28:31 I didn't want to be the only one left that was healthy and not pregnant.

28:38 That got left behind for my unit. So I did everything I possibly could to help out all of the families and spouses left behind. I facilitated video chats at them. I made sure their family for taking care of an communicated back and forth with my unit, but that's hard. And then that was, they were only gone for a couple of months before I got out. I think they went in January February and I got out the very beginning of May.

29:09 Well.

29:11 And I did not join back in. I do feel like that's relevant to people probably want to know why I didn't reenlist at that moment. When everybody was being so patriotic. I was married at the time to a pilot in the Army in the same Fort Campbell and he was very likely going to be deployed to. And so I wanted to stay home to support him while he was serving the country.

29:36 Wow, a bunch of bunch of tough choices.

29:41 Well.

29:44 I have I have.

29:48 Two, two. Other questions that I wanted to make sure that I got to and I hope we have time for them. One of them is

30:02 And they're kind of related. But one of them is how did your military service impact your choice to become a social worker specifically, a social worker in hospice.

30:15 Or did it I mean I don't well it didn't it didn't my my military career did not directly impact me specifically becoming a social worker. However, my GI Bill that allow me to go back to school to get my Master's. So that was a benefit. I didn't know what I wanted to do right away and I did end up going to counseling which I want to normalize for everyone.

30:41 And during the counseling sessions. That's when I kind of had that Epiphany, that that was the direction. I want to go in and hospice has always been in my life for as long as I can remember. So it was just a Natural Choice from friends and family and experiences with death of my own life. I'm not in the military but way before that, that I was really good at holding space for death and dying. So, that's how I came to be at hospice. Well, when you talked about, you know, the that month or so in Louisiana, when you all were helping getting ready, but you are also helping each other and helping the people that were there and then being Stateside, while your husband was there because you wanted to support, I mean, that Justice like do social work to me, that it seems like a natural kind of like

31:32 Almost laying the groundwork for that kind of stuff that I think, I probably always had that. It just took a while to get there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

31:47 And then the other question is kind of a bigger question and that is.

31:55 How did your military service, change you?

32:01 And, you know, on whatever level you feel comfortable talking about.

32:09 I read that as a prompt question. I I think I'm not sure that it.

32:16 I mean ahead without an impact on me. Clearly.

32:20 I think probably the the most impact, the military service had on me was the bonds that you form with your brothers and sisters in arms.

32:32 There's no way to explain to someone that's never been in the military.

32:36 How you trust someone else with your life in that way?

32:40 And there's a lot of people in my life including you that I would trust with my life.

32:46 It's different. It's different. When you're putting yourself In Harm's Way, it's different when you're

32:55 Learning about sucking chest wounds and putting on gas mask.

33:03 And there's just there's something so different about that. So having that bonding experience.

33:09 In particular right now, I think helps me even more. I mean, I think I'm a pretty good at social worker and I am a pretty great people person over again, but being a veteran and having that experience really helps in instances where there's no other way to connect with, some of our hospice patients other than military service. And sometimes that's the only way you can build before because they have broken trust for whatever reason.

33:40 So,

33:41 I think it's a benefit in that I'm definitely much more punctual. If you're not five minutes early, your late. I was responsible. And that's because of my mother who was again in the Air Force, but I'm sure she got it from that.

33:59 Yeah, I think that's probably the

34:03 The biggest weights changed me.

34:07 So I want to leave space for you to answer any of the questions that you want to answer or talk about any of the things that that you want to talk about. Even if it isn't necessarily related to the military.

34:23 You know, there's a question on here that says what phrase our word will never be the same. Now that you served, that's a silly question and I kept thinking and thinking and I asked around to several people that were veterans what word or phrase is different and none of us had the same kind of response as there's not a word that we went into it with it changed. What change was the use of acronyms to use of special language that that we all you know every field that you're in has its own kind of slang.

34:57 And there's absolutely different Slangin in metaphors and things like that. I had someone else tell me that when they heard the sound of a helicopter, it made them think of freedom.

35:14 And I got to thinking about that the fact that when we were driving down towards Louisiana after 9/11, there were Flags everywhere.

35:23 And you know, when you're first in the military, you're very proud and patriotic, but this is different when you saw those flags flying and it was after 9/11 it, it was so much more impactful. We stopped. I don't remember when it was, but right in this timeframe, we stopped at like a petting zoo and there was some little kid, we were all in our uniforms are fatigues and

35:50 He was talking about eagles. There was an eagle there and how that stood for freedom and man that really gets you in the heart when you hear stuff like that and you're the one that's actually serving and protecting. So,

36:03 Also, you can't watch another military movie without picking it apart when we just said, yes I can imagine. That is so wrong, but I still okay, cuz that's pretty accurate. No Firebirds and Nicolas Cage has a patches in it. That's the worst. Don't watch it. Okay, I won't watch it.

36:31 What else? What other questions?

36:35 I think just going back to making sure that people know that not all military experiences of the same that it's okay. If people don't want to talk about it or is that they struggle with that identity of being a veteran, because it is a really big part of our identity, but it's also really hard to talk about with this ongoing War. It was so hard to talk about. I'm sure for Vietnam vets for different reasons. And the swing in the culture of America has changed to embrace the people coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. So that it's much more supportive of the troops. Unfortunately, those people that end up not going to deployments or not having PTSD, you're not having any of the stereotypical experiences then feel like maybe they're not worthy of that title. So just be aware that if there's people in your life that our veterans and experience in that kind of thing, to give them a little bit of of Grace.

37:31 And so, what would you that? Brings up? Another question? What would you recommend for folks? Like me who have never been exposed to anybody in the military doesn't? We don't have people in our in our family who been in the military to either either connect with people who are in the military or being Allied via a person who is supportive. I mean, you know, I I try I try and say thank you for your service, but that doesn't feel like enough and sometimes I know that I've heard that some military folks don't like that. So I'm like, okay. I'm not even sure what to do.

38:07 I mean, there's really nothing else. I feel the same way. I'm a veteran and I see somewhere from where we're too and I'm like, do I say thank you for your service. I'm not even sure. So, being respectful, giving them the space to share or not share. I think it's probably the most helpful thing you can do is just giving them room to to share their experience if they want to. And if they don't just you know, let them know that you still love them and care about them no matter what.

38:39 Well, I don't I mean I have tons of other questions, but, you know, we can do that over a beer later. Thank you for taking the time to get to know me better. I'm car. So thank you for allowing me to thank you for being willing to and of course. Thank you for your service.

38:58 Thank you. Thank you.