Hank Martin and DeVon Wade

00:00 My name is Devon Wade. I am 33 years old. Today is August 4th, 2022. I'm Hank Martin Martin.

00:07 I'm 59 years old. Today is August 4. Great. And we are at the WTJU studio. So first, I'm going to start off by asking what brought you to this interview, this conversation today, what sparked your interest in this project?

00:23 Absolutely. So I am still relatively new to Charlottesville and also to uva. I mentioned in my bio that I'm new on staff, new ish, on staff at the university. And I happen to see the building where I'm situated, which is Newcomb Hall. There are quite a few, like, not billboards, but just boards where folks advertise with flyers. And I happened to see this flyer a couple of months ago, and I thought it was fascinating. I tried to, like, enter every space that I'm in, like, with curiosity, with an open mind, an open heart. But I was fascinated by what I saw. And I, you know, as I'm trying to get to know Charlottesville, get to know, like, the UVA community, I thought that would be a great thing to. To sign up to do. I didn't know when I was ever going to hear back or if I would ever hear back, but I was like, what the heck? The least I can do is go ahead and sign up. So that's why I'm here, I guess.

01:28 My animation was. Having been born and raised here, I've watched this community change, and it really disturbed me. And I'm sure we're going to hit on this. It really disturbed me, what I witnessed five years ago.

01:46 Okay.

01:49 It was so misrepresentative of the general nature of this town, at least the town as I remember and knew it.

01:59 Okay.

02:01 I felt like that there needed to be some conversation. No one's talking to each other. We are hollering at each other. We're going behind. I mean, we, not necessarily you, but as a culture, yeah, the greater we're polarizing. And it breaks my heart because I didn't see this when I was growing up, at least not in the interracial part, because to me, what I've witnessed, and I've long said in Charlottesville, it's not so much racism as it is greenism. And what I mean by that is I've seen this personally. I've experienced it. If you have enough dollar bills in your wallet, you can do whatever you want. It doesn't matter your skin color, as long as you can pay the piper. And I have suffered more from bullying. And there are Scars I've got with me that I'll take with me. And it didn't come from anybody, but, you know, people that look just like me. Anyone can be a reprehensible devil. And what has happened lately, I just feel like we need to start talking and thinking for ourselves, not, you know, critically look at what is going on and think about it on a person to person level. And that's what animated me. And I'm like, you. I submitted my name and all. I'm like, well, okay, if this is like everything else, I'll never hear back.

03:28 Yeah.

03:31 Well, that's great and thank you both for sharing. I'm going to ask if you could read each other's bios on the paper on the table. Whoever wants to start.

03:39 It doesn't matter, I can start. Hank Martin

03:41 Okay, so you'll read the other person's bio and then we'll go into our first question.

03:45 This is really funny. I didn't anticipate that this would actually be read. So Hank Martin you have fun with that. So, Hank's bio. Native born, resident, product of Albemarle county school system 69 through 81. In my youth I was active in Cub Boy Scouts of America program and Monticello Squadron of of the Civil Air Patrol. Growing up in what was then rural Albemarle, I was the only child of parents who had me late in life. Most of my contemporaries had grandparents. My parents age. Being raised by depression slash World War II era parents, my point of view was considerably different. I've been employed in various services throughout my life.

04:31 Here. I like you. I would have said everything I just said if I knew I was going to read it again or you would read it. But anyway, what's good? This is Devon's bio. What's good? My name is Devon Wade and I'm a newish staff member to UVA in student engagement and inclusion. Born in the Midwest and raised in the Deep South. Discipled on the west coast, Mexico and Jordan. I think Jesus of Nazareth is the dopest to ever do it. And I try to live my life in a way that reflects my faith. I also think bipoc folks are image bearers of God and I think my LGBTQIA siblings are image bearers of God. Great. Perfect. So is there anything about your partner's bio that is interesting to you or that sparks something, a conversation in you that you'd like to share? The fact that you think that Jesus is the dopest? Dude, I love it. I mean, you know and I know these get down and see. Now we're beginning to these questions in a little bit, but, you know, we have. I read that. I'm like, well, this ought to be fun.

05:50 Yeah.

05:51 Because religion does not need to be as diversive and as complicated as man has now made it.

06:02 Yeah.

06:03 And when you get right down to it, each and every one of us, I mean, I've always. The reason I like that is because I've always said, you know, on the cross, Jesus shed his blood, not his skin. There's a reason for that. The blood is the one thing we all share. And back when DNA first got discovered, I remember that they finally, when they uncoiled the helix, they traced it all back to, guess what? One man and one woman. So guess what? This racial stuff is something that Darwin came up with. In my opinion, we needed to find a way back in those days to excuse why we want to behave like we want to behave. So let's come up with races before Darwin and all of that. We were the brotherhood of man. Yeah. We had our differences, but you were saying brotherhood of man. And when I read that, I'm like, okay, very interesting.

06:54 Good, good. So when I, When I read yours, I was very interested about the. I was interested as to why you brought up like the cub and the Boy Scouts and the, the Monticello organization that you were part of. Like, why those. Like what? I guess what, what about those were important enough for you to mention in your bio.

07:25 I had a. Well, I recently found out long after everybody was dead and gone, I opened up the wrong box in the storage shed and I found out that the man that I called father wasn't. He was an absentee father. And looking back, a lot of things made sense on why he, you know, didn't care to be a part of my life. So I was struggling as an only child with a very strong willed mother. And if you've seen that in the South, I'm sure the only way I could find male role models. I mean, I knew I wanted to be a man, I knew what type of man I wanted to be, and I didn't know how to do it. So the reason those things were important to me and were they gave me goals, they helped me to think, they helped give me discipline. I so much wanted to join the Navy. I was telling Evelyn before you came in, you know, I had been planned on joining the military and it was to have that camaraderie.

08:24 Yeah.

08:25 That I never had because of the financial problem, because of the divide on the financial thing. The so they were important because to me, they were the thing, part of the things that helped build me, you know, between my church experience, what I believed in the Bible, which scouts in that day didn't have the problem. Well, they did it. Well, we didn't know it, but here, locally, they, they reinforced these disciplines. And so it just, it. I mean, I don't want to sound like the Marine Corps getting the medal of Honor or something, but it made me who I was or ham and how I believed and how I treated other people.

09:02 Absolutely. Okay, that's actually, that's really, that's really interesting. I'm super glad you, you fleshed that out. You know, I was raised, I was raised by a single mother myself. Very strong willed woman. Strong willed Southern woman.

09:16 Yes.

09:18 And I think similarly to you because of my biological father not being a part of the picture that made me, even as a child, like, not even having like, you know, the language or the experience, but I knew what I didn't want to be.

09:35 Exactly.

09:36 When I saw my, you know, I saw my mom as a, as a single mother. Like, you know, we struggled. I saw her struggle, you know, you know, by the grace of God, like she was able to get. Get married when I was in high school to my stepfather, a wonderful man. They're, you know, they're still married. They have a great marriage. But I was in high school before.

09:54 I saw those years, from like first grade to middle school. Yeah.

09:59 Yeah. So I knew that I wanted to be a good man, a good husband, a good father when I, when I became an adult, because I didn't see that growing up. Yeah. So I definitely, I definitely identify with that similarly. Yeah. Yeah.

10:18 Great. So this is a tough question. Who has been the most influential person in your life and what did they teach you?

10:33 Yeah, mine is probably the same answer. It would be my mom, for a myriad of reasons, not only just seeing a strong, a very strong, you know, woman had to navigate having, you know, myself and my older brother, so having multiple children, being a single mother, I saw the role that Faith played and I saw how much I saw as much as I could at that, at that age. But I guess I'm more reflecting, reflecting back, but the, like, the sacrifice that she made to make sure that, you know, my brother and I were in places, whether it's football, sports, whether it's extracurricular activities, to have us around, positive male role models. So I guess similar to like your, you know, the Cub Scouts and like the, the groups that you are a part of. She was very Intentional in having us in those places. She was very intentional and like having a village around us so, you know, different aunts and just, just, just a village around us. And as strong as she was and as much as she could do on her own, she also recognized that I do need this surrounding my sons and my family. I learned from her the power of prayer, which she got from my grandmother, who got it from my great grandmother. So I. I've seen a long life line of praying women. And so, yeah, so in a lot of ways, I would say my mom has been the most influential person in my life.

12:03 I would say it's kind of copying what you're going with, what you're saying. By default, my father, he, who I called father, was probably the most important because I knew he taught me by failure. Okay, Everything I did not want to be, having to grow up figuring out what I. Knowing what I needed and not getting it when I had. And I was blessed with two sons and I was all over it. I mean, you know, every. I got to. I got to not only be a father to them, but I also got to have those experiences that I didn't have, but I did everything opposite. And so kind of like you said, by default, by. He was the most important factor on put because I knew exactly what not to do. And I can see the difference in the way they were raised. I've got a relationship with them. They paid attention to what I tried to teach them. And, you know, so, yeah, I would say, as funny as it sounds, my he, who I called father.

13:15 Yeah, it's definitely understandable.

13:20 Wonderful. I guess next. And this can go wherever you would like to take it. What is your first memory of Politics? I was 10 years old and it would be the Nixon Watergate hearings. Come home every day. I couldn't watch Star Trek. I had to watch the Nixon hearings. I'm like, well, this is. I only got three channels and only one of those came in good. So I guess I'm stuck watching this stuff.

13:51 Yeah.

13:52 And then I'm like, wow, this. Even at age 10, you're like, okay, this is kind of. This is kind of scary. Yeah, that would be my first taste of politics. And then I realized I had a real interest in finding out about it. And I started reading more beyond just the curriculum in school and learning about, you know, the history of the country, the history of how we got to be and all the different things that played into it. But it answered. The short answer to that question would be that Watergate.

14:23 Mine would probably be around the same age, nine or 10. And it would be the Clinton scandal and that, you know, in particular, like them wanting to impeach Clinton. Like I remember just being a child. So my, my maternal family is from the same town in Arkansas where the Clintons are from. So I have family members who essentially grew up. Grew up with Bill. So we. So our family knows him. And so that made it even more of a lively, lively discussion. But again, I was 9 or 10 years old, so I could only really understand it from the perspective.

14:59 I got so tired of hearing about Monica Lewinsky in that blue dress.

15:02 Yeah, yeah. Heard, heard, heard a lot about it. So that. Yeah, definitely the. Yeah. That end of the Clinton administration was my most. My first.

15:10 Yeah.

15:12 Memory of politics. Yeah.

15:18 Feel free. Now, some of the other questions on the list, if there's anything you'd like to ask your partner, feel free to ask that. Maybe barring the few last ones, which we'll talk about at the end.

15:30 Okay. We could just go in order. So, Hank Martin could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

15:42 I frustrate a lot of people at family dinners because you got your Democrats and you've got your Republicans. I laugh at both. It's very simple for me. I understand what.

16:00 That's so random. Okay.

16:01 That's why I said I'll get a phone call when I don't want to talk to anybody. But I go strictly by understanding, by all the reading that I did, I understand the republic that the founding fathers put together. Were we perfect? No, I mean when I look back, and of course, this is the science fiction part of me says if we could go back in time, if we could have just waited a little longer and not given in, if Jefferson and Adams and Franklin weren't in such a hurry, if they could just waited a few weeks for North Carolina and I mean South Carolina and Georgia, they were the two that said, you got to take the issue about the slavery thing. You won't sign the declaration without it. If we'd waited and the British showed up, cut their ports off, they would have said, okay, we'll go, let's get out of here, let's. So don't worry about it. We got to. But we didn't. We compromised and we paid for that compromise. But in the overall scheme of things, my political beliefs are government exists to maintain the God given rights of the individual. It's not here to. And as long as you're not breaking laws and doing ridiculously inhumane things, it doesn't need to be all over us. And that's why I think there would be a lot more family businesses if you didn't have all of these taxes and regulations and how many people would like to work for themselves? I know I would. But you can't, because we've got this system that's set up that you got to have insurance, you've got to have this, and you got to have that. And age 60 or almost 60. I've watched this, and I believe that we've all been kind of duped, having been bullied. I mean, I was bullied like crazy, and I. I was an outcast, and I was kind of existed around this, outside of the perimeter of everything, which was lonesome at that time, but allowed me to observe things.

18:01 Okay.

18:02 And the bullying that I saw, you know, the bullies would get some of these people together and make them think they're cool and pitch these guys against these guys. And I kind of. That's kind of reflected in the way I see the overall big picture.

18:13 Okay.

18:14 And I see all of us running around here and the. Keeping being distracted, you know, by whatever. Because if we stop looking at each other and blaming each other, you know, the Mexican, the Asian, the you, me, if we start looking up and seeing these guys are up here drinking liquor and smoking cigars and laughing at us all. And I think a lot of this is theatrical to me. My personal belief is a lot of this is theatrical because if we ever. What's the movie I'm grasping that sums. Braveheart. Did you ever see Braveheart with Mel Gibson?

18:52 I did in the 90s, but not well enough to.

18:55 I mean. Well, there's a scene in there, and he's trying to get all these Scottish clans to get together.

18:59 Yeah.

19:00 To stand together. To realize, you know, instead of taking scraps off of long shanks table, we need to get together and have our own country. And that scared the devil out of even the Scots. The Richard Scott government exists to protect us all, but it should also enhance us and not hold us back. And it should not be creating all of these divisions that has been created for whatever reason. The simplest way for me to put it, you want to talk about the border and the immigration. Okay. One party needs the votes. One party needs the cheap labor. Both are equally guilty. And ain't neither one of them doing what's right for we the people. Okay. That's probably the fastest way I can put that.

19:42 Absolutely.

19:42 Because you don't have enough time on the table.

19:44 Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like I never fully know how to Answer this question. But I'll say I believe that humanity should be treated with dignity and respect. I think human beings should be valued in such a way. I'm very much pro into like repair and restoring. So one concrete example, concrete example of that, especially being here in a specific UVA context. I've been able to meet some amazing, amazing folks who are descendants of African Americans who are enslaved at the university. And these people are doing incredible work to, and actually it's been approved to where descendants of people enslaved at the University of Virginia receive financial aid, received scholarship. To me that's reparative, that's restorative because the physical university would not exist without that free labor. And so folks who, you know, folks who didn't even have a right and weren't a part of Jefferson's vision to attend the university, to me, reparative and restorative is giving those folks an opportunity to receive the education that wasn't meant for them in the first place. So I am big into reparative and restorative. I also don't like, I don't trust politicians to be quite frank. And you mentioned the border and before coming to the state of Virginia, I lived in the state of California and I actually worked for a faith based federal organization that worked specifically with immigrants and asylum seekers and refugees. And so I would get so frustrated hearing folks, it's easy to use those things as just talking points but I was actually meeting those people. I was at the border and crossing the border. So I'm seeing people face to face. I'm having these conversations and interactions face to face. And I guess you can say as a part of my personal politic and I guess why I can appreciate this conversation because it's easy to. If you haven't met somebody who's a part of insert group, it's easy to reduce them to a headline. But when you're face to face and you're having a conversation and you're having to look that person in the eye and interact and be in, be in community with them, possibly like that, that changes the entire dynamic. So I have, you know, I have compassion for folks who have, who, who have had to make decisions for their families, who have had to escape things that possibly you and I can never comprehend. And I feel like I worked with a lot of those folks like you know, the, the Ukrainian refugees. I lived in the Ukrainian neighborhood in Sacramento, like the folks from Afghanistan. That's the largest population that I, that I worked with in California. So like I, I try to like Lead from extending, you know, extending compassion. Because I just think, yeah, humanity should be treated. Should be treated as such. And I don't think the government always has the best. The best interest in mind of those particular people. So I don't, like, I don't. I don't have, like. I know that there are people who have allegiances to, like, their particular camp. I don't see.

23:23 That's why I frustrate people when I go to dinner, because they'll draw me into these politics. And I'm like, don't. Because I look at it. I don't know that coming from a side of faith. I guess the easiest way for me to try to encapsulate for anybody, especially most people, get the sports reference to me as a person that I, you know, I consider myself a saved individual. Okay, we're supposed to be here. We're in the world. All right? You got two players. You got like. Like a football team. You see the teams on there, on the field? No one pays attention to the third set of people on the field. And that's the umpires or referees. I mean, referees. Yeah, they're not playing sides. They're there to. And that's where I feel like the church should be. And all the churches are just too wrapped up in the. What color is the carpet? How big the chandelier? Where's the new piano? How big can we make this thing when we should be out here wearing our referee shirts and making. Getting in there like you're doing and making a difference instead. My best. You know, when I was growing up and I was active in a church, this was when the abortion thing was really hot and heavy, in the 80s, early mid-80s, because I was just married. Yeah. And they were protesting and they were. And I'm like. They called me in their office, I kid you not. They called me in there and they said, how come you're not up there? You know, as a man of faith, you should be up there. And I looked at him, I said, are you nuts? I said, the Jesus that I know met the woman where she was at the well. I said, don't you think these women that are walking up there are doing this because they. Families like you are rejecting them? The boy can't do anything about it. He's got no money. Don't you think that maybe this is their only last chance? And I said, you're standing out here calling them baby killers and everything. And I said, I got another thing for you. You're going to go up there, hold Your sign. Do your. All this. I said, you're going to go home, sit down on TV, watch channel 29. We only had one station back then. And you're going to say, oh, wow, look at me. Look. I said, I'm going to be in jail because when somebody comes my hands on me, I'm going to go back to the bullying mode and I ain't going to put up with it. Yeah, I said, so you do you. I said, but here's my thing. Every single one of you have empty rooms in your house where your kids have moved away. Why don't you tell that young woman, I will bring you in, I will feed you, I will clothe you, I will give you food, I will see through that. You get your medical care. The child can then either go up for adoption or you can. We can make plans with you, I said, but it's a lot easier to stand there and shake your fist, how righteous you are and then go home and dump yourself on the back. Look at me, I said, and you ain't done nothing. I said, so there's the difference. I said, I can't do that. And of course that's why I don't fit in. I don't fit in with political parties. I don't fit in at churches. Because when you say things like that.

26:21 Yeah.

26:22 That's like the equivalent of Jesus overturning the table.

26:25 Yeah.

26:25 And they look at you like, are you crazy? Yeah, I reckon I am.

26:29 Yeah. I. That's. No.

26:32 All right.

26:33 Wow. Yeah, I'm. Look, that's so interesting. But I'm with you. It's a lot easier. It requires nothing of you to just. When you have the resources and the ability to make a difference, not do anything, but instead yelling, scream and shout. So like, yeah, I'm like, I'm. I'm told, like it just. You where there's space to extend compassion because we don't know people's. We don't know people's stories. We don't know why they're making a decision like that. That's life altering. We have. We have no idea. And it's like it's. It requires more of us to extend compassion or even help tangibly than it just kind of screaming, shout. So. Yeah, totally with you on that. Yeah.

27:27 Okay, let's see. Well, I think we can pretty much. Is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with, but still, respect. I don't think. I think we kind of answered that one.

27:41 Yeah.

27:43 Do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you. I. E. By people from the other side of the aisle and how so?

27:53 Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think it. You know, I think in my previous. In my previous position, you know, not only did I work directly with, you know, with families, I worked with community members. So that's churches, that's mosques, synagogues, you know, that's, you know, that schools. That's just a wide variety of different community groups. And as a person of faith, the churches that I interacted with were the most draining, were my worst experiences. I had, you know, I had a particular Sunday when I was. When I was. I would. I would be asked to, you know, come and share at services at churches pretty frequently. And I had one experience where a gentleman had to be removed, physically removed, by the security at the church, you know, for harassment. You know, he ran up to me and he told me I was praying against you. Which. That's the first time I've ever heard anybody say that. I was like, you have to really like you. I can't even. I don't think I've ever been that mad at anybody to pray, actively pray against them. But I just feel like, you know, you would, I think, going into that position, like, oh, you know, I'm going to be with, I guess, my people. I'm saying that loosely, but like, you know, folks in the church, like, I would think that there would be a certain baseline of things that we agree upon, which are these people are made in the image of God. We have an obligation, not just opportunity, opportunity and obligation as people of faith to extend a welcome to the people welcoming the foreigner and the stranger into. When they have fled into our care. I thought that was the baseline. Like, okay, we all agree on that. Maybe the logistics, we don't agree. We can talk through that, we can debate, but at least we agree on those things. And what I saw over and over and over and over and over is we didn't agree. And so I like that working in. Working in the churches, working with folks who profess themselves to be Christian, that was the worst part of that job. Everybody else, every other, like all of the other interfaith groups, you know, people of no faith at all, like, who just wanted to just jump in and support like everyone else, I had such a positive and fulfilling experience with, but it was like the folks in the church that were the worst. So that's. That's. I would. I would find myself, like, having to. To really. To really pray. I feel like the most before entering a church space.

30:37 Yeah.

30:37 And having people Tell me, why are we letting terrorists into our country? Like, screaming at me, this is. These are inside physical church buildings. Just some of the most hateful things I've ever heard said about different groups of people came from, you know, came from the folks in the church. So that I feel like that was draining in, like the hardest part of an otherwise very fulfilling job that I had. So that's, that's definitely like a time where I was just like, we. Are we not reading the same scripture? Like, the scripture hasn't changed. I love it.

31:15 You're in your 30s, right? So you're the same age as my oldest son. When I was going through this, we were doing this. I was running the exact same thing. In the 80s. I got married at 21 and 85. I can't try to be active in the church. I'm like, you. The most draining two hours of my life were on Sundays. And I'm like, what is wrong here? And you would, you know, people I grew up with. Okay, you grew up. I mean, my. I was a Baptist, Southern Baptist. These people, you're growing up with them. You read, you're hearing the same preacher.

31:47 Yeah.

31:48 Reading, singing from the same hymnal, reading the same scripture from the King James. And all of a sudden you get to this age. I'm like, I don't know you.

31:55 Yeah.

31:56 Are you kidding me? How can you possibly have. What have I been hearing and what are you hearing or not hearing? That we have such a dissolution of principle and what we're here about and what we're supposed to be doing, which, you know, and then of course, the way I see this, like in my time, the big hot issue at that point was homosexuality.

32:20 Okay.

32:21 I sat in churches and I listened to people. Literally. I mean, it wasn't even preaching. It was a. It was a yelling, screaming, put down fest. Okay, okay. We had men, deacons. Deacons of the church, having affairs. Known having affairs. I made the mistake. Good old Captain Kirk that I am. You know, I'm just going to say I had made the mistake of saying, excuse me, but. And I was like, 22, 23. So this was a kid, you know.

32:51 Yeah, yeah.

32:52 And I asked him at a meeting one day, I said, are we at a buffet table of sin? What do you mean? Well, okay, I'm just trying to get the idea here. It's okay for brother so and so to sit with his mistress while his soon to be ex wife is over here. Not a problem. But sin is sin. I said, if he's. I said, if you're gonna put it down in your turn. Let's put it down. He's an adulterer, she's a fornicator. What's the difference? When Paul said fornicators, adulterers, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Ain't nobody going.

33:28 Yeah.

33:29 What are we missing? Oh, my Lord. You could have heard pin drop. I was a heretic. Because how dare you say. And I'm saying. Okay, so what you're saying is you'll sit. I can. You'll feel comfortable sitting next to me if I'm sleeping around with 30 women, but if I'm having sex with one man. Yeah, it's terrible. What's the difference?

33:47 Yeah.

33:48 And if you can't tell me. Okay, well. Okay. Honey, we looking for another church. I've been to every church in this town. I kid you not. I'm out. I mean, I am out of churches.

33:55 Wow.

33:57 Because of that whole. And then between that and the greed and the power and the. There's in to my experience Now, I'm 30 years ahead of you, but you've got it human. If you've had what you've just told me, I get what. You know what I'm speaking. I'm like, these people are not called. This is a decision. Do I want to be a banker? Do I want to be a lawyer? Oh, let's be a preacher. Great schedule, good pay, lots of free food. Yeah. And free golf. So I'm with you on that because we are. We're. We're missing. We're missing the mark.

34:35 Yeah.

34:36 And the rest of the world sees us missing the mark, which makes it even that much harder for people. Genuine people. I've had. I've had a person tell me, or I've had two or three people tell me. I believe you. And I believe you believe in what you're saying. My problem is everybody around you doesn't.

34:51 Yeah.

34:52 And I can't get into that.

34:53 Yeah.

34:53 And I'll give you the best example. I was driving a bus for a while. I was witnessing this guy, and he said, you know, hold it. He said, I'm going to tell you something. He said. And that's the one that said, I believe you believe me.

35:05 Yeah.

35:06 But I used to work in it in Las Vegas. Now Las Vegas attracts all the conventions, religious conventions, simply because. Well, not simply because, but primarily because they got the most accommodations.

35:19 Absolutely.

35:20 He said, every time they came to town, the. Back then the hotels had the porn channels and everything. They were so overloaded because they were buzz Watching them, all the youth ministers. And, yeah, you know, he said, I believe that you believe. He said, but you need to tell everybody else if you want me to take it seriously. And I'm like, right. The heart that just destroys. I mean, anything I'm trying to do on a personal level is just gone. All right, you. Then you had the Catholic Church roll out. Now all everybody's talking about. I said, well, just wait. Just give it time. I said, the Southern Baptist won't. Ain't gonna be. Promise you. And they said, what do you mean? I said, just. Just wait. I said, the revealing's coming. I said, just give it time. Well, here we are.

36:02 Yeah.

36:03 Now the Southern Baptists are. Well, we need to make some reparations for the women that, you know. And I'm like, bingo.

36:09 Yeah.

36:10 All behind the power, you know, And I am so jaded. Yeah, you can. I have set with. I've had ministers tell. Sit in my home and talk about a certain woman in the congregation. Ain't she drop dead. Go gorgeous. I'm like, see you.

36:21 Yeah, goodbye.

36:23 You know, you're done.

36:24 So, yeah, I. I'm always so. One. One really thing that I'm glad that we share is I've also been called a heretic. I got, you know, the friend, the friendly neighborhood heretic for simply, you know, we. We had a dynamic at a. At a previous church that I was at where I had a lot of, like, I was on staff at one point. I had. I had many. You know, I was a part of the singles ministry, young, young, young adults ministry. And I could clearly see that there was such a different way that the women were treated versus, you know, versus the men, like, who got to. Who got to ascend to power. And it didn't feel like it was based off of anything scriptural because all of these positions that women were not allowed to have were the highest paid, the most perks, and like, in. In. Yeah, you know, in. And women were just left out of a lot of opportunities. And just because I spoke up on that, like, shouldn't, you know, shouldn't we talk about this? Shouldn't. Our sisters are saying we're being treated differently, you know, and then, you know, in scripture, we're called to carry one another's burdens. And our sisters are saying, hey, here's my burden. And the men are like, no, that. No, you know, we're just. Just. Just. Just completely dismissing them. And. Because I was willing to stand in the gap because I believe that in my faith, that's what I'M called to do, to stand in the gap. Now I'm a heretic. So I. Anytime I meet another Christian who's been. Who's experienced that, like, I. I feel like I have even more of a bond because it's like the things that we are being called heretics for.

38:04 Yeah.

38:04 It's just. It's. It's hilarious. And. And I'm. Yeah. I. I would have never thought. Honestly, I would have never thought. I guess I would have assumed that much more of those things were happening in my generation. I would have never thought or considered.

38:23 That what you're experiencing in your generation began their initial. I believe my. Because I love history, and I have biblical history, world history, politics. I look at it all together for sure. What I think you are experiencing or what's occurring now was germinated or the planting began in my time.

38:41 Yeah.

38:42 And I was seeing it, but I didn't know just how much. I was. I just thought it was here. Yeah. You know, I'm just. Man, this place is nuts.

38:48 Yeah.

38:48 I got to get out. I told Evelyn, I said, I'm like the guy from Wonderful Life. I never could get out of Bedford Falls.

38:56 Yeah.

38:56 And I was like, if I could get out of here, you know, surely. Well, okay. I'm not seeing it. You know, I'm talking to people now, thanks to Facebook. Everybody else. Where can I find a church? Where can I go to? So there's a. There's a desert out there. You know, you have the Joel Osteen. You know, the worst thing in the world is this promise of prosperity.

39:13 Yeah.

39:14 No, that's not what my Bible tells me. My Bible tells me, when you're, you know, you're coming up, you're going to meet resistance. And I'm going to tell you something. This stuff about the heretics and stuff. Do you notice how it's getting harder now? It's even. I mean. Yeah. To me, the shifting and between the elections and all these other things, we are revealing who people really are. My Christmas car list is almost to nothing right now because of all the things that I thought I knew that I could trust in people. Isn't true. When the rubber meets the road and it's like, okay, wow. You know, this is getting to be kind of lonesome, humanly speaking. Not lonesome this way, but. And I'm like, okay. But the whole thing is that what we. What I saw happening, starting with the. That era.

40:00 Yeah.

40:02 Grew.

40:02 Yeah.

40:03 And those children and those homes grew. And now they're in positions of power and now, the one, their grandfathers or fathers that called me a heretic.

40:11 Yeah.

40:12 They are the ones. They're. They're all springing. They're calling you the heretic.

40:16 Yeah.

40:16 Welcome to the club.

40:18 Do you feel like it was. Because I would have. I would imagine, but I would need you to either, like, confirm or deny this. I feel like now those conversations are happening in the open more so I'm wondering, like, if you felt more lonely speaking, like, speaking up on. Speaking. Speaking out on those things.

40:39 When I say lonely, I mean, as far as I don't have the phone ringing like I used to.

40:42 Okay. Yeah.

40:43 Before COVID I didn't. It didn't have to worry. Covid didn't change much for me. Wasn't nobody coming over a barbecue anymore.

40:48 Yeah.

40:49 Because these things, these issues were just. And I'm sorry. I'm going to call. You know, I can't just. I'm not just going to go along if I don't agree with it if I'm going to call you. You know, it used to be iron sharpens iron. We're supposed to learn things, and nobody's learning. We're just hollering at each other. I told my wife, I said, I can eat dinner a whole lot better just eating dinner by myself. Because I'm tired of trying to, you know, tell people. Like I said, you grew up with them. You think you know these people. You think you know how they think they don't. You know, they were. Somebody was playing a game. Either I'm deluded or they're as false as, you know. And what we're seeing, I think, is the zipper coming down and the sheep's. You know, the Rams are. I mean, the wolves are coming out. Who. So we've been playing what I call. Been playing the Jesus game where the rubber meets the road. And I'll tell you when, Tony. It started in 2008. Everybody that was saying, oh, you know, my. The Lord is with me. But then when the money quit, you know, the housing and all started falling. Bingo, bingo, bing. All of a sudden, we weren't talking about that. All of a sudden, all these people that were so sure about everything running around, more scared than I was.

41:57 Yeah.

41:58 And so I'm like, okay, your rock was George Washington on a green dollar bill, and mine was this guy over here on the cross. So. Okay, got you.

42:07 Ooh, that's real. That is real.

42:13 Okay, this has been just amazing. But I did want to circle back to something, Hank Martin that you mentioned at the beginning, which was how the events of August 2017 kind of impacted your views. And I just wanted to ask both of you kind of, what was your reaction to that? And just what do you think in August of 2017? Like I said, when I was growing up, I. My whole. I don't fit in anybody's pigeonhole. I would get on my bicycle and drive a mile, ride a mile and a half. All my friends, you know, I don't want to sound like that guy, you know, you read these people. Oh, I've got black friends. Well, okay. That's not what I mean when I'm saying this. These people, the Cub Scouts that I was in, I was the only white kid in that Cub Scout. We just wanted friends. We wanted people to play with, no attitude. People we could just be real with. I would get on my bike and ride a mile and a half around, play with these guys. The ones on my road were too good for me. The ones on my road tease me on the school bus. The ones on my. These guys, you just. We were. We were brothers.

43:26 Yeah.

43:26 And we played. I went to my first church experience was an Evergreen Baptist Church. It's a little church sitting on Prophet Road. It's still there. I think it's empty now, but, I mean, it's right there on the curve. You went down there all night. You know, you went down there for Sunday school. I mean, vacation, Bible school. We drank more Kool Aid, ate more sugar cookies, and did more stuff. That was where. That was how I got it. And so when August 17th came, we. I was still talking to these people. And we were scared.

43:57 Yeah.

43:58 Because I had. I mean, if. If you figure it out, I'm in. I'm in School in 69. Started first grade. It's. By 72, I was doing my bicycle. How come we weren't trying to tear each other up? You know, we were getting along.

44:12 Yeah.

44:13 So shouldn't we be. Do. I mean, that was in 69. 72. Our children, that. Why are we. So why are we worse now than we were when we were first doing the integration thing? Remember the Titans? You know, That's a great movie. I love that movie. And the thing about it is, where. Where do those lessons go? I mean, what happened? Well, number one, somehow that the church just went silent.

44:38 Yeah.

44:39 The Sunday morning became the most integrated day. I mean, that. What do you call integrated segregated day on the planet. We stopped having these conversations. But I also think that the policies that went into effect. The boys that I grew up with, they had fathers. You don't have Just like you. Just like me. I mean, I. This one guy, he. His. Mike Vaughn was his name. He's in the army, and it was. I lost touch with him. But his dad, he taught me how to work on things. My dad taught me nothing. Nothing. He taught me how to fix a lawnmower, how to fix a bicycle. Yeah. The fathers were there and they were working hard and they. So you had the nuclear family and. I'm getting to your point, Evelyn. I'm trying to hurry it up. I know you're in short for time, but the. I grew up and I didn't see color. And between what I knew in church and what you know, we're talking about Nichelle Nichols on Star Trek having just died, okay? It was no big problem for me. You know, they took in 1960, she turns off the communications console, sits down behind the helm and takes over. That was right. You know, we didn't judge people. You know, to me, if you're good at it, you can do it. Hey, we're all great because we're all equal.

45:54 Yeah.

45:56 Between my religious beliefs and being stuff like that, it got me years ahead. Now we're plagued by the same stupid thing that I thought we left behind in the 70s. But to. In answer to your question, the thing that scared me and scared us all is we were played. Most of the. Not everybody, but a lot of these people. See, what gets me is the same demonstration that we had here five years ago happened two months earlier in Pike, Kentucky. In Pike, Kentucky, that little dinky one one sheriff town managed to keep everybody apart. No one touched anybody. They ran it, yelled and screamed, you look a fool, you went home and there was nothing. We, to me, did everything we could to make this happen. And it was. What was that purpose for? I don't know. I mean, was it for. I mean, we could get into all the different ramifications. But the problem of it is no. Most of the people that knew that most of the real citizens of Charlottesville were at home. We knew where not to be that day. All that other crap you see that you. Every time you Google Charlottesville now, that's the first thing that pops up. All of that was. Was brought in here. People were filling the Airbnbs. And I remember going to Trivago the day that. The weekend that happened, okay, you couldn't find a room within 75 miles of here. No Airbnb, no hotel, no hotel campsites. All these people came in here to stage the stupid thing.

47:22 Yeah.

47:22 Now I look at it and you want to Go to the Civil War, and it's about the statute. But I do see a great comp. I see a great comparison there. Two opposing armies descended on Gettysburg, tore the hell out of each other, went home. The Gettysburg people had to pick up what was left. And that's what we're still trying to do to me, in my opinion.

47:40 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was definitely, you know, I was living all the way across the. Across the country when that happened. And now that I'm here, I have a lot more, like, I have so much more empathy for Charlottesville because I was, you know, it was known as, like, the Charlottesville incident. And it's still, you know, if you. It's still. It's literally still referenced as the. The Charlottesville incident. Like, I listen to, you know, I'm a big podcast nerd. I love, you know, I love. I just love learning. And every time it's referred to. It's referred to as the Charlottesville incident. And when I was in. In California, you know, I didn't. I. Truthfully, I didn't know much about Charlottesville. I don't even think I realized that the university was in Charlottesville. So then once that. When that happened, that's the only thing I associated with the word Charlottesville.

48:31 Yeah.

48:33 Which, like, yeah. Which is, like, again, now that I'm here, I'm like, oh, man. Like, and meeting and meeting people. Meeting people black, white, Hispanic who, like, were, like, arm in arm at, you know, at the church, you know, surround, like, you know, trying, you know, just trying to give some resistance to the folks who came in with the tiki torches. But I just. I just thought those. I thought they were cowards. And, you know, you just. A lot of times you just. You kind of see. You see images. You see, like, little short, short videos. But since I've lived here, I've tried to be really intentional about. If I know that you were here during that time, I ask, what was that like for you? Where were you? How did you find out about it? So I've talked to people at the university in the community, and it's been so. Just interesting, just hearing people's. I'm a big story. Hearing people's story type of person. So just hearing people's, like, hearing people's stories, where they were and, you know, even seeing, like, you know, seeing more come out and just like, yeah, like a bunch of. A bunch of cowards who needed to be in large numbers, you know, decided to pick Charlottesville. Though I do think, you know, I think. I think because of, like, the history. I thought they were very intentional, but it's just. It's still a bunch of. It's mostly outsiders. Definitely some folks who are in town probably agreed with. Agreed with those folks. But I. But I understand that largely it was folks from out of town.

49:58 Yeah.

49:58 And it just. It's put, you know, and it's. It's put an unfortunate stigma on the name of Charlottesville. But I think there was some. I think a lot of things happened because of that, and from what I've heard from folks who've lived in Charlottesville, was that really ushered in a lot of conversations that are happening more directly now that weren't happening before. You know, you have the creation of the memorial for enslaved laborers at the university. You have, like, all of these things that it should. And it shouldn't take that. You know, I'm from. I'm from Stone Mountain, Georgia, that has the largest Confederate monument in the world. And, you know, you have this park that. That is surrounded by a predominantly black community. And then you have, like, kind of this plantation wonderland at this park that's in the center. We were never having these conversations. We just knew that there were certain times you stayed, as a black person, you stayed away from the park because the Klan is marching through this day or this particular neo Nazi group is marching through this day. So it was just one of those things that we, like, were born and like, and were raised knowing, but nobody was talking about anything. So being in Charlottesville, people are. Have no choice but to talk about now. And again, I don't. It shouldn't take that. It shouldn't take somebody dying.

51:15 That's your good point.

51:16 Yeah.

51:16 When you and. I think you and I are both coming from this. Of the same thing, Prior. I mean, you're coming from it. And you were being called a heretic. So you were trying to have conversations.

51:25 Yeah.

51:26 Nobody wanted to listen. They just wanted to point, yell, and pray against you. Yeah, I love that. I have to remember that one. I never. Unlike you, I never heard that. But I would try to have these conversations and they. You can't converse. It's. It's duh, you know, And I'm like, where is the critical. I mean, why can't we talk? Why can't you? I'm willing to concede you have some points, but you've got to be able to understand that I'm not speaking, you know, Klingon ease here. I am trying to explain to you that we have interests and if we would come down off of Individual party worship, political worship, and get down where it's straight. We'll realize we got a lot more to connect us than we do. Everybody wants to have a family. All most of us want is to raise our children, give them good futures, keep them closed. I mean, the basics do. Play baseball, you know, do whatever. Raise a good kid, raise a good citizen, be productive, and bounce a grandkid on your knee. I'm still waiting for that. Boys are getting slow, but the. We're not doing all that. And we're getting all this supercharged, superheated stuff that really means nothing. And I'm like, one day I told somebody, I told a guy, I said, you know, one day I said, here's what I've seen. This is what goes back to the watching the bullies separate you at school. One day, the yellow man, the black man, the white man, a red man. We're all going to wake up and realize that while we've been down here in the pits, clawing at each other, the fences are all around. I said, and I hope we wake up sooner than later. And I feel like with all the things we're hearing about now, whatever's coming, and something is coming. I mean, by Christmas, I don't know what this is going to look like. Are we going to be still so divided? Are we going, how did we get to the Depression? Think about it. The churches and the people back. How did we get through the Depression? There was no government to help us. We helped each other. The churches helped out. What, no dead bodies? Were no homeless. And I understand the population differences and everything, but there was an attitudinal difference.

53:26 Yeah.

53:27 And we don't have that now.

53:28 Yeah.

53:29 And it's scary because we're all out here now almost in individuals. Like we're on the wrong side of Hadrian's Wall back in the Roman times, and you're just fending for yourself. And, you know, I really wish people would learn to talk. I mean, conversation is great. I love to have a con, but this is the best conversation I've had with anybody in months. Because we're actually listening.

53:57 Absolutely.

53:58 Whereas everybody else says, well, Hank Martin how do you do this? How do you explain. How do you. Okay, good. Goodbye. And the best sad part about is we have YouTube. We've got all these things that I would have thought would brought us make it easier to do this. And it has, to a degree. But the other side, the white supremacists, the neo Nazis, and the far left, the far right, they've used this great medium. Yeah. That instantly translates stuff and made communication. We're. We're less communicating now than we did when we had stamps and pens and paper. That's real, in my opinion.

54:33 Yeah. Yeah. And definitely, like, in it. And it, you know, it says in your, you know, your bio, like, your point of view was shaped by parents who lived through the Depression and in World War II. So I can definitely respect that, you know, that being passed down to you. Like, yeah, back then we didn't. We had to. Had to be able to survive and come together in a way when there was no help from the government. And like, so I definitely, yeah, respect hearing your. And appreciate hearing your point of view and your experience being raised by parents who lived through that.

55:08 Yeah. And see, I think you seen. And you're seeing the same thing having, you know, my mom was. My parents were from North Carolina. Well, that's close enough to Georgia in mindset. So you had that strong mother. We both know what a strong Southern woman can do when she's raising kids by herself. That's true.

55:25 Yeah.

55:28 We are coming close to time. Got about five minutes left, so just wanted to get your general thoughts about this conversation and what has surprised you about your conversation partner and what have you enjoyed?

55:42 Yeah, truthfully, I didn't know. I didn't know what I was walking into. But again, I want it, like, as I mentioned in the beginning, like, I wanted to. If I didn't have, like, an open mind about this, I wouldn't have signed up for it. So, like, I had an open mind and open heart about this. But you just, you never, you never know what the, what the conversation is going to bring. So I, I am just, I'm so I've been. Is. Yeah, I'm. It's been. It's been incredibly pleasant. I've really enjoyed, you know, your company, your conversation. You know, I feel. I feel, you know, sad that, you know, you experienced, like, bullying and experience, like, know we have similar experiences in, in the church. But I, you know, I'm still wondering if, like, if it would have felt not, you know, not necessarily like, maybe lonely isn't the best word, but if there weren't just a lot of, if there weren't more people, like, I can, like now, nowadays I can go online, like you said, with Facebook, and I can meet somebody from across the country who's had this experience.

56:49 Yeah.

56:50 And we can talk about, man, we've had the same experience, but the technology wasn't what it is at that time. So it's like I feel. I feel. Yeah. I just, like, my. It hurts my heart a little bit to know that, like, you may have not had much access to other people. It may have felt like, man, am I the only one that's crazy around here? Like, I. So. But it's. But it's also encouraging to know that there were folks who were speak. Who were pushing back. And so I appreciate that you were a person pushing back in a time where maybe it was incredibly unpopular.

57:26 If I could go back and do everything I did with the advent of having Facebook and everything, I would have been far. I would have a lot more energized. Because you just got to feeling like you were Elijah under the tree by yourself.

57:37 Yeah.

57:38 And after a while, it was just like, okay, you know, I don't have time for the drama. I don't have time. You know, it's. It's. I'm trying to raise a family. I've got enough things to drain me. Church and stuff is supposed to be energizing, not de. Energizing.

57:52 Yeah.

57:52 And I'm like, y'all go. Go do whatever you call this. Y'all go do that. And I'm so. But, yeah, the. So when I say lonely, I mean, you know, it was. It was difficult. But the beauty of it is having been bullied and having grown up alone as an only child, you hadn't. I understood. I never always had friends. They were right there on the shelf. Right there on the books.

58:12 Yeah.

58:12 You know, so. I mean, I was never alone if I had a book.

58:15 Absolutely.

58:15 And so that's how I coped. And so when. I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm having a pity party, but the. It helped me. That loneliness.

58:25 Yeah.

58:25 For the times I'm in right now.

58:27 Yeah.

58:27 Because it makes it easy to say, there's the door. Nice meeting you. Don't come back into. You know.

58:32 Yeah.

58:32 But. Yeah.

58:33 And I. And I've. And also what I've hear a theme that I've heard from you is because of, like, the bullying and things like that, I feel like that has instilled compassion for the person, whether it's, like, a group of people or individual person who's, like, being marginalized, who's being bullied, who's being, like, talked down to, especially by the church, I feel like that experience. I feel like what I'm hearing, at least that experience has instilled a level of compassion and empathy I take up.

59:00 I mean, when I'm out at. You know, if I see. Cause I've been the. I've been the guy that's working the cash register.

59:04 Yeah.

59:04 You know, I've been the guy that's been spit on. And so when I see somebody pulling that. A restaurant or something, I'm like, oh, you want to get me riled up?

59:13 Yeah.

59:13 You know, you come and wait on my table, then you go to the table next to me and somebody, oh, we gonna have a problem.

59:18 Yeah. Yeah.

59:19 Nurses and stuff. I. I've. I don't have a problem calling them out.

59:23 Yeah.

59:23 And because you're there trying. They're just trying to do a job to the best of their ability. You're. They're not there to take your abuse. If you need to do that, go see a counselor and pay for it. Don't make them pay for it.

59:34 Absolutely.

59:34 But anyway. Yeah. I've been kind of a maverick and. But I didn't know what to expect today. The main thing I wanted to do, so I just wanted to say something.

59:44 Yeah.

59:44 And thinking. And I always wanted to leave my mark on history. Well, John Adams, I ain't. And, you know, none of these great people. But sometime, if we survive, our conversation may get listened to by somebody 100 years from now.

59:58 Yeah.

59:59 Hopefully they will have be in a better situation and laugh at this conversation and say, oh, that we made it.

01:00:05 Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

01:00:09 Thank you so much for joining us.

01:00:11 It was great.

01:00:11 You're welcome. Been fun.