Holly Byers and Fred DaCosta

[00:01] FRED DA COSTA: All right, well, my name is Fred. I am 44 years old. Today is August 30, 2024, and I am in Wichita, Kansas. My one step, my one small step partner is Holly.

[00:19] HOLLY BYERS: Hi, my name is Holly byers. I am 37 years old. Today is Friday, August 30, 2024. I'm in Wichita, Kansas. My one small step partner is Fred. So, Fred, what made you want to do this interview today?

[00:33] FRED DA COSTA: Glad you asked, Holly. I've heard a little bit about StoryCorps, and I am a fellow podcaster. I have many podcasts, too many that I don't even do anything with. But, you know, seeing the podcast style here and the ability to reach people from different places and spaces, I really enjoyed that. I really like that idea. And I've always wanted to do something like this. And then all of a sudden, here I am with you.

[01:08] HOLLY BYERS: Great.

[01:09] FRED DA COSTA: Same question. What made you want to interview today?

[01:15] HOLLY BYERS: I liked the idea that this is meant to be a depolarizing exercise in our society. I think I struggle with the idea that maybe I don't get along with people very well because I have very strong opinions. So I saw this as an opportunity to meet somebody that is outside of my immediate circle and to, I don't know, just reach out, challenge myself.

[01:43] FRED DA COSTA: That's cool. That's really cool. Well, I wanted to, I guess, just talk about you a little bit here. I, you know, I see here that you are. Can you read the. Read the whole bio? Yeah. Yeah. So here's Holly's bio. I'm in my late 30s, a single mother and small business owner. I work from home as of writing, as of this writing, I am 296 days sober from alcohol after 10 years. I am an atheist with religious trauma. So finding my sober path has been difficult in a state where most recovery paths require a faith element. Gardening is my passion, and I'm pursuing a degree in horticulture. My goal is eco therapy to help battle substance abuse. I'm a member of the Choctaw Nation and have recently taken up beadwork, hence your earrings, which is really cool.

[02:42] HOLLY BYERS: Thank you.

[02:45] FRED DA COSTA: So, yeah, Questions? I have a lot of questions because I listened to what you said just a moment ago, and you said that sometimes people, because you have strong opinion and probably based on some of the stances that you've made here, people assume that you are incapable or inept at certain things. And so I would start off by simply saying, you know, I'm a pastor. I'm a youth and young adult pastor. And when I hear somebody say that they are an atheist. I don't react the way that many do because for me, I sometimes I've asked those questions, those difficult questions, and I've dealt with a deal of my own religious trauma. So I almost wanted to, like, pull mine out and then like, lay it on the table and then just kind of see you were at with that. But I see that people take different approaches to it because you had the courage to say, I'm done with whatever that is. Whereas for me, I stuck around and I stuck around, and I still have some. And I still have some frustration and hurt. And I'm just working through it as I go through it. And the thing is, is that it's. I respect and admire the person who has the courage to just say, you know what? If that's what we're calling that, I'm not a part of that. So I guess it leads me to the question of what does atheism mean to you? I know there's a functional definition, you know, of there's the agnostic and the atheist, but what that means to you in connection with that trauma.

[04:26] HOLLY BYERS: Well, thank you very much. I was raised in denominations that were fundamental and very evangelical, and it was a fire and brimstone sort of situation. There was also notions of just how many people, exactly, would get to heaven. And I was very uncomfortable with those numbers that were thrown around. I spent much, much, much of my childhood terrified for my friends, my family and myself. So eventually, as I. As I got older, that questioning began and I actually became sort of a better Christian for it. I drew myself more into the faith. I visited Israel for two weeks, did the whole thing. And when it came time to have my daughter, I realized I couldn't bear to pass that along to her. And I couldn't bear to carry along that pain and fear one more step. So the deconstruction was to free me. And it honestly, in my opinion, involved a leap of faith of its own to let go of that sense of control of what's gonna happen. So I don't know is where that is for me. And that's okay.

[05:59] FRED DA COSTA: That's powerful, what you said. I'm just listening to what you had said. You said it caused you to become a better Christian. And I always wonder what that is, because I feel like there's a construct to that. And I feel like that's some of the stuff that I fight even today. What does it mean to be a better Christian? And then you said you went the distance. I want to Go to Israel. I haven't even been. I'm supposed to, I guess, but then you talked about when we bring another person into this world and we have a decision of what we want them to be exposed to, how we want them to live their lives. And the furthest thing from me that I would ever want is for my 12 year old and my now 2 year old. I can't believe I'm 44 years old, by the way. But what do I want them to have to. I don't want them to suffer those things. And so you said a leap of faith. And to me, it does take a leap of faith to be real honest with yourself and to be honest with what you want and don't want. And so I just. I admire you for that and I just.

[07:00] HOLLY BYERS: Thank you.

[07:01] FRED DA COSTA: I'm a little jelly. A little jelly. But the cool thing is that I guess with that leap of faith, sometimes when we let go of that thing that we want so bad, we end up finding the thing we were looking for. And there's a type of freedom and we're in a space to be able to receive that experience that. So I just. Yes. Anyways, so. Yeah. All right. Any more questions? If I could ask. So addiction, another courageous thing. I just have a feeling that, Holly, I'm sitting across from a real person, a real human being that has come to a journey. Because in my context, we keep those things secret. You know, that's. That's what, that's what being a better Christian is that we hide it and we come dressed appropriately and we do not show any kind of any leak or crack. Otherwise we're not sanctified. We haven't. We haven't arrived.

[07:54] HOLLY BYERS: Backsliding, we're back.

[07:56] FRED DA COSTA: That's what they call it, the classic term. See, I feel like you know exactly everything that I'm talking about. So. So in that, you know, I think about addiction and your particular choice is the bottle. I just wanted to ask you about that experience, like where it began and then like the journey now and forward. I am familiar with addiction. That's why I respect you for that. Yes.

[08:22] HOLLY BYERS: Well, it began long before I picked up the bottle. Like is the case with most people, if we're being honest with ourselves. Along with religious trauma came a pretty dysfunctional, unhappy childhood. And that was the thing that I reached for when so many other things just didn't work. By the time I left high school, life just was not turning out the way they said it would, what I should be capable of achieving. And somehow I had to numb the pain of all of that disappointment. But I will also say that during those 10 years, I was not idle. It was not a complete slide backwards. I was in therapy that entire time. I was still, you know, as a high functioning alcoholic. I was still growing and challenging myself and learning who I was becoming. And thankfully, by the time I was ready to give up the substance, my recovery really took off because of all of that work that had been lain before. But sorry, this happens a lot too, because post acute withdrawal, we really, really struggle with cognition up to a year after the last drink. And I lose track of where I'm at very easily. And I'm trying really hard to find where I was going.

[09:41] FRED DA COSTA: You're awesome.

[09:42] HOLLY BYERS: There was something else I wanted to say about that. Oh. As far as when I decided to be honest with myself and everybody around me, I had to have people meet me where I was at. So a lot of people feel like they have to go cold turkey. I was in fact honest with everybody around me that I'm still drinking and I'm still struggling to stop. That was freeing. So you talked about, you know, needing to hide it in my own actual recovery journey. I just came out and I was like, hey, everybody, I'm having a problem. I am barely holding on. And four years later, finally have a breakthrough. Well, now, five now, coming up.

[10:24] FRED DA COSTA: That's so cool. I heard you say that you did the work and like, I find in my experience that I was so embarrassed with my form of addiction that I tried to go and do that. I tried to even hide that. I tried to go in secret. I didn't want to admit I had a problem and I didn't want it to ever come out. So I went and did the work. And it's hard work. It's hard work.

[10:49] HOLLY BYERS: It's very hard work. Just deconstructing yourself and building yourself back up.

[10:53] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. And I heard you say that post acute withdrawal thing that help causes you to lose the track thing. And I wonder, man. I wonder. I feel some similarities here, but I love the phrase that you said meet where I am. And if you want to talk about where now we're starting to be alike is, that's. That's the God that I'm learning at the end of the tunnel of this recovery. Slash transparency, slash redeconstruct and redefinition of what this thing is, this higher power, whomever he may be or she. But yeah, that's what it's all about. Meeting us where we're at and so powerful. I Love the. I want to just ask you questions for the rest of this time, really. Because then you said gardening. I feel like I didn't do a good job on my. I'm just like, hi.

[11:47] HOLLY BYERS: I'm always overkill, though. I'm a writer. And like I said, I mentioned that I don't have any problem talking about myself.

[11:54] FRED DA COSTA: Oh, it's wonderful. I just. This is. You know. But, you know, gardening, horticulture, I just. I want to know about all of it. I just.

[12:04] HOLLY BYERS: My mother was a gardener, or she is a gardener, and she did it for years. Well, for years, I was like, that's boring. I don't want to join you. But as soon as I reached adulthood and moved to my very own place, I was like, I have to have a garden. And from there, I've just learned doing it as a hobby. And it definitely has kept me in this world at times when I was struggling, keeping my hands in the soil, watching things grow, that was something I couldn't really mess up. So these days, though, I have decided to start pursuing my degree in sustainable horticulture. And I am taking the opportunity to get to know land owners and really delve into the whole native species restoration, prairie restoration, stuff like that, and to be able to reintroduce stewardship of the land to the Native American community, not solely them, but it's something that we, as our community need to get our hands back into.

[13:07] FRED DA COSTA: So.

[13:07] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah, man.

[13:08] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. Something has been taken. Just taken from the last thing you said. I just feel like where your heart is. I feel like what we, as humans, what we desire most is to be seen, heard, and understood, and that we're all going through it, through a journey. And I love what you said about this, the Choctaw Nation, which is really cool. I don't know how you arrived at that one. I feel like there's a percentage of Indian with all of us. I know my family comes from Jamaica. We're Jamaican folk. They were born in Jamaica. I was not. I've always felt kind of estranged there because, you know, patois, like, they do all the time, you know, say, but I don't look it. I don't. And so I feel kind of like an outcast.

[13:49] HOLLY BYERS: Oh, I can relate.

[13:50] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. And so I'm just like, ugh. And so I'm trying to embrace it. And, you know, one of my podcasts is me trying to talk in patois and embrace the culture. Love the food.

[14:00] HOLLY BYERS: Oh, yeah, that's easy.

[14:01] FRED DA COSTA: That's easy, right? Yeah, that's an easy one. But the thing you said kept me here like, that makes me emotional a little bit.

[14:11] HOLLY BYERS: It is emotional.

[14:12] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. But, yeah, like, to see the process of growth, something growing. And you said something you can't ruin. And it's funny. I kill everything green and I'm just like. I don't know. I got a. What do you call those ones? They're. It's like. The word is kind of like juicy. They're like little tiny succulents. Succulent.

[14:31] HOLLY BYERS: Thank you.

[14:32] FRED DA COSTA: And I actually.

[14:34] HOLLY BYERS: Trickier than they seem. Okay. Yeah. They are pretty darn easy to kill.

[14:38] FRED DA COSTA: Someone gifted me, and I was like, surely, surely. And I kept him by the window and I watered.

[14:43] HOLLY BYERS: At least you didn't accidentally keep a plastic one by the window, thinking it was real.

[14:48] FRED DA COSTA: I appreciate that.

[14:49] HOLLY BYERS: Recently heard a horror story about that.

[14:51] FRED DA COSTA: I feel so much better now. I appreciate that. But. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, seeing something in its natural, uncategorized, uncomplicated, just the process of something. A seed in the ground and photosynthesis, sunlight, water, growth. You can't complicate it. You can't destroy it. I mean, you can, but like I said. But that's just very powerful to me, so. And then I just want to talk about your earrings, and I'll be done. I just want to talk about everything.

[15:31] HOLLY BYERS: Well, I struggled to figure out how to connect to my culture for years, and of course, for a number of years, made attempts that, you know, didn't really pan out. I was looking for people to give me permission and bring me in and bestow upon me. But the way you talked about it actually is perfect because you have to reach out, you have to engage, you have to give yourself that permission. And I saw that, or I noticed that when I joined the community pretty actively in June of last year. And it was when I started to show up regularly, that part of it, the embracing, the acceptance came along. But it started with me reaching out first and connecting with a woman who was kind enough to offer to teach me how to bead. And just having that craft really grounded me in a way. Just gave me some sense of confidence and purpose and belonging. Yeah.

[16:38] FRED DA COSTA: That's all we want as humans.

[16:39] HOLLY BYERS: Yes, Truly.

[16:41] FRED DA COSTA: I love what you said about give permission. That's something I struggle with, is owning the space that I occupy, really owning it. As a. As a youth, young adult pastor, like, you know, I work with another guy, and the kind of person that I am is if there's somebody that's doing something, instead of owning the space, I make myself small.

[17:03] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah.

[17:03] FRED DA COSTA: Until I'm not existent and I'm okay with it. I have no competition. No. I'm not trying to fight for anything.

[17:09] HOLLY BYERS: It's comfortable.

[17:10] FRED DA COSTA: It's comfortable. That's true. You're right. It's comfortable too. Yes. It's nice and soft here and. And then you said to show up and then this kind includer person, you know, so you made that move and then they included you in.

[17:30] HOLLY BYERS: They met me where I was at.

[17:33] FRED DA COSTA: Yes, yes, yes. And so, yeah, that is all the questions I have for now. I do want to talk about your kids, but I mean, I don't know how you feel about that.

[17:45] HOLLY BYERS: Well, I think we'll get to that.

[17:46] FRED DA COSTA: Okay.

[17:47] HOLLY BYERS: For sure. Okay. So, Fred's bio. I am the eldest of seven kids living in Wichita, Kansas. I am a youth and young adult pastor. Married. I'm 43 years old. I have a 12 year old and a one and a half year old. Going through big changes on how I relate to God and who he is. And the first thing that jumped out to me about this was the age difference with your kids. Because my daughter is 10 and I swear, up and down, oh, I'm done. There's never no way. Nuh. And here you are. What is that about? Oh man.

[18:23] FRED DA COSTA: I'll tell you, I'm so. Yeah, I'm glad you asked. It was a surprise. A very big surprise. There was no. It was no intention to have. We were done having kids and my game on, whatever the methods I was choosing, it was working. We were not. We were. She's probably entering into perimenopause at this time and. And then all of a sudden, I don't even know. He's. I would almost call him a miracle baby. I don't even know how he is. But there is a lot of fear with that.

[18:53] HOLLY BYERS: Oh yeah.

[18:54] FRED DA COSTA: A lot of. I don't know, because of the way we. We plan families and things. It's. There was some shame to it because, you know.

[19:02] HOLLY BYERS: Interesting.

[19:03] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah.

[19:03] HOLLY BYERS: I didn't even consider that.

[19:04] FRED DA COSTA: But yeah, well, you know, it's straight. No, I appreciate you. It's crazy because it's like in the church it would be considered kind of irresponsible. Like, you know, you're at this place in your life and what are you gonna be grandpa with your kid? And I don't know, there was just so much with that. And so for a while we had to cut. We had to work through that because it's the shame of worrying about what other people think. But then there's the shame of having shame.

[19:34] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah. Yep.

[19:35] FRED DA COSTA: Weird stuff. It's so weird to be a human.

[19:38] HOLLY BYERS: And so you don't want to be affected by things. Right?

[19:42] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And so, yeah, I've got a 12 year old, he's a Minecrafter and he plays gorilla tag on his Oculus. And then there's a two year old and he's two. He's running around. He's, he's. He doesn't speak quite yet. You know, we always see where the kids should be, the mile marker, and he's not there. And so there's fear and worry with that. But, but you know, we're making it work. We're making it work. And it's funny behind closed doors what a morning looks like or a day looks like. And then you arrive and you, you know, you as best as you can. You have everything put together. I got my hair and my face got shaved and I'm wearing two of the same socks, you know. But it's a lot. It's. It's a lot. So.

[20:35] HOLLY BYERS: Well, yeah, I feel like I'm pretty well finished. But seeing that, I was like, oh, it could still happen to me.

[20:44] FRED DA COSTA: Yes.

[20:45] HOLLY BYERS: And then. So being a pastor, my father is a pastor, we actually live together.

[20:49] FRED DA COSTA: I don't.

[20:49] HOLLY BYERS: Kidding. His own journey with his faith has been very transformative. I dare say that living with him and being in such close proximity and me griping about things from time to time has inspired him to do his research and really dig in. And it's. I will say that if I had had him as a pastor, as a child, well, he's just so nurturing, I should say. And it's really refreshing to see that. So what brought you to being a pastor?

[21:21] FRED DA COSTA: Sure. Well, one thing I do want to address is kind of a piece there of what you said. I think it's so cool how that you guys live in the same space and that it's caused him to drive him into introspection and what that means in ministry and relationship to God. But you asked me the question, what I have a problem talking about myself is what my problem is. And it's horrible. I dodge by asking other people questions. So I'm going to come back and answer your question. Your question is why did I become a pastor? So I had an episode, my addiction. I like to not take accountability for a second, I guess, and then get back to taking accountability because it was introduced at a young age. Abuse, sexual, drug and. And so at first I would blame that, but then Now I make choices later in life and I don't know how to process all of that, but I come to a place where I wanna be something for somebody. You know, that whole hero complex. I don't know, like, I got bit by spider and I become spider Man. And then like, I don't know what happened to Batman. It was like an alley or something weird and bats and became Batman. So whatever the case may be. And so in that journey, I wanted to be that. And so at first I tried to throw it all into a relationship. You know, I tried to. I come from a family of seven and I ended up being kind of like the dad in a way. I don't know if it's parentification. Sounds like it. Yeah, I have an awesome mom. I love her to death and I love her cooking. Love your mom. But yeah, there is. I found myself taking on that role and so I threw myself into that. And so it's all I knew. So when I left the house, I wanted to join another relationship and so I tried to put it into that. And I'm sticking to the question here is how did I become a pastor? How did I choose to. And the answer to that is then I started working with young people and I was like, I want to effect change at this stage. I want to give them the tools they need. I went to a Spanish church. Wifey was my girlfriend at the time. Don't speak Spanish, but they speak English and taught class for a while and thought, you know, this is something I like to do. But ended up being where I became like a prominent, like me, an elder in the church, over the youth and leader. But never planned to become a pastor and ended up doing like Bible work, you know, the door to door stuff.

[23:54] HOLLY BYERS: Oh yeah.

[23:55] FRED DA COSTA: Ride bikes and knock at doors. And I did that in Nebraska City. And that was grueling, arduous work. And it was tough because I was having Moses at that time and I had the wrong idea. I sacrificed Moses on the altar of religious duty. And so I dragged him everywhere and I needed him to be quiet so I could do. So I could save the world. And you know, fortunately, as long as there's breath in our lungs, there's time, right?

[24:26] HOLLY BYERS: Yes.

[24:27] FRED DA COSTA: But some of the stuff that's done, I don't know how reversible. I rely on God for that, but I regret that because now he's 12 years old. Thankfully we're still communicative and that now I got a job. I went to school with the youth that I trained and ended up Graduating with one of them. I've taken a long road, the Long scenic. And ended up getting to a place you sent you as well. So. All right. Yes, Air 5. Yes, absolutely. So ended up coming to a place where I'm losing track here. I came to a place where I got picked up for a job in Kansas City for youth pastoring, and I fit right in because that's where you do the things and, you know, the programs, the hundreds of programs that suck you in every direction. And you and those who are left without, you know, were sacrificed at that, your family. And it was after three or four years of that that I recognized I do want to be a pastor. That whole time before, I did not. I was just there.

[25:36] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah.

[25:37] FRED DA COSTA: And doing it incorrectly, I feel. And so now I've learned.

[25:41] HOLLY BYERS: That's how you learn, though.

[25:42] FRED DA COSTA: That's true.

[25:43] HOLLY BYERS: That is how everybody learned.

[25:45] FRED DA COSTA: You're right about that. You're right. I appreciate that. And so, yeah. And so, yeah, the decision maybe wasn't for. Maybe it began as duty. And now as I'm learning more about myself and who this God is that I'm serving, I'm at a place now where I believe it's more authentic. I believe that now. I. I usually try to control the image that I give people. You know, like how in social media, you can give people what you want them to curate. Yeah, you can curate. And in Pastor Dom, you try to curate your image. Even my hair. Like, this is kind of a weird flex at the church, but when you build authentic relationships, people love you. And I didn't think that was possible. We're not there yet fully, but we're getting there, and that's what I want. I want more of those kinds of relationships. I want real, authentic connection. Meet me where I'm at. So you just preached me a sermon with that statement right there. But, yeah, that's why I chose the wrong thing. God in all his wisdom, knew what I was really choosing, and I think I'm getting to experience that. I know you read that I was 43, but I am now 44 as of August 19th.

[27:09] HOLLY BYERS: Oh, happy birthday.

[27:10] FRED DA COSTA: And if you want to sing to me, you can.

[27:12] HOLLY BYERS: You don't want me to sing to you? I promise.

[27:16] FRED DA COSTA: So, yeah. So I do want to ask you a question, if I could.

[27:22] HOLLY BYERS: Absolutely, yeah.

[27:24] FRED DA COSTA: Could you tell me about one or two people in your life who have had the biggest influence on you, and then what did they teach you? So we'll start with the first one.

[27:38] HOLLY BYERS: These were some. This one was a tough lesson, but I. The first time I went to college, which was right out of high school, I was. I was super into anime. And so my major was East Asian languages with an emphasis on Japanese literature and language. And I was used to just excelling in high school. But college challenged me socially because of my religious upbringing in ways I was not prepared to handle. Also, you know, study wise, I was not as rigorous a student as I thought I was. But my Japanese teacher, Maggie Childs, Child, who is still out there, you know, paragliding with her silvery hair, she was the first person to deliver the hard lesson of I was living style over substance. And it came through in my coursework and that kind of thing when I was applying for scholarships and writing essays and stuff, being a very empty inspirational speaker. And I've held onto that lesson ever since and tried to just in my personal development and certainly in my writing, have substance over style. So Maggie Childs, the other one is my Aunt Beverly, and I'm going to try not to get emotional. She passed away from cancer when I was 14 years old. But she was one of the first people to teach me about unconditional acceptance in my rather conservative family. She was an Italian woman with. Who had married in with bleach blonde hair. And she didn't, you know, wear T shirts buttoned up to her neck. And she was. Had long acrylic nails. And she was proud to be beautiful and proud and, you know, loud and bright. And in a situation where I might have otherwise had my light kind of dampened and extinguished, she taught me to stay bright and stay loud. I miss her so much. So I'm going to ask you the same question. Tell me about one or two people in your life who've had the biggest influence on you and what did they teach you?

[29:51] FRED DA COSTA: Sure. It's weird when people show up at the right time in the right place. I think for mine, it was very brief and it was my Uncle Frank. And Uncle Frank was my mom's, my mom's brother. And he just lived. And he was kind of an eccentric kind of guy, had the Afro puff, lived in the. Kind of across the street. And he just kind of lived to himself, but he was kind of fighting his own demons. He was kind of fighting with himself, but admits despite that, he had a way to show up and just be there. And he would make trips back and forth from Jamaica to California, where I was at the time. And he would just. He would just. I don't know why. I didn't understand why he would just take me in and he wanted to be around me and you know, a one parent house, maybe that was why. But he took me in and I remember some of the adventures we would go on, which were weird. Like he took me around. I remember when we visited Jamaica and he was like, he'd take me to like gatherings and they'd have this soup called mannish water. And it is. When you say mannish, I mean it has like all of the sweat glands and weird things that animals parts that you put into a soup and boil it.

[31:11] HOLLY BYERS: Wow.

[31:11] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah, it's very delicious, spicy and strange. And we'd walk around and then he's. He just. It kind of embarrassed me. He'd be like, you like her? You like her? Of course I don't like, I'm just, I'm too young, you know, and I'm just like, yes. And then I would give like a kiss on her cheek or something. I don't know if he was using me as a, as a woman magnet. I don't know what he was doing. But above and beyond that. I remember a night when his wife was concerned about him because he was doing a lot of drinking and she couldn't get through and she came up to me, she was crying about it and talking. I don't know why because I was a little kid. But I remember going in and talking to him and said, you know, Uncle, I was like worried about you. Why? You know, I'm worried that you're gonna die. And. And he was like, oh, I won't, I'm not, it's okay. And he kind of held me there and. And I think. I don't know if he stopped or not, but I just remember he would give me any little thing he had. I had a piggy bank. I'm giving you pieces here, memories. But it was that he showed up at a time that was very. I needed somebody like that, I guess maybe a male figure in my life. And those little show ups. He's like, he could do no wrong. I'm sure he was a terrible guy otherwise. But I mean he was, he was there and it meant a lot. So I would say him, I would say my mom. There's things that I'm working through with her in my head. She's just one of the kindest, most giving people in the world. It's a Jamaican thing maybe, but if she sees somebody out there, she'll invite them in and give something to them. And it's weird how the person that you love the most, you're conflicted with. Oh yeah, it's the weirdest thing. And you're working through stuff. There's a part that you're still unresolved. There's a part of their spirit that you just love. And that's one of those things. And so those two people, I would say two top people for me, I guess as we're going here, I wanted to. I guess I didn't. I don't know what they taught me. I guess, I guess I kind of shared what they taught me. But I was going to ask you. Holly. I have a sister named Holly, by the way.

[33:31] HOLLY BYERS: Oh, great name.

[33:32] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Fred. There's Judy, Holly, Crystal, Zemri, Kenny and Corey. I can tell you when all their, I don't know, their birthdays and it's horrible. I'm a terrible big brother. But I wanted to ask you, could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

[33:52] HOLLY BYERS: So I feel like I engage in voting out of necessity, but I have for a long time been highly disturbed by any political party. And so I, I turn to a horizontal morality. It's community based, it's humanism. I look for the most humane person candidate is what I mean to say. I'm looking for the most humane candidate and going off of their individual policies one by one. And in this country, you know, it's the lesser of two evils usually so. But I am somebody who lives on the poverty line. I receive state aid. I am intimately aware of the shortcomings in this state. I actually did a research project last year looking at the conditions of leadership in our state legislature and how we go from citizens to getting through all of the channels to contact our legislatures in effect. And it's a grim, grim picture. But yeah, I think more than like any political side, it is the personal values and emphasis on community.

[35:30] FRED DA COSTA: That's cool, that's awesome.

[35:33] HOLLY BYERS: But Fred, what about you? Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

[35:37] FRED DA COSTA: Sure, sure. I love how you said taking what we've got and I think the word was horizontal morality. You said, what is the best way to. Because there's systems, right? There's these systems, these constructs in the world and there's, you know, there's different forms of government and different forms of making sure everybody is treated equally and fairly. And I like your method. Honestly, I might just adopt it. I just wait because I mean, when I, when I step away from. I usually try to step away from the political scene and I, and I think sometimes people interpret it as kind of me Just being maybe careless or irresponsible.

[36:19] HOLLY BYERS: I relate to that.

[36:20] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. To be like, oh, I'm so. I feel like I need to at least pay some attention to it. So I'm not. But then they say, don't be, but be political. Don't be. And as a pastor, you're strongly, at least in my church, advised against it. Right. If God's government were to have its way, the way people did things, the way those who lived on the poverty line could glean from the fields of those who were maybe doing better, the way of give and take, things would be better. But we're not there, so what do we do? We're in this context. And so I think I do. I love the way you defined it. I would say I don't pay enough attention. I'm starting to more. Because I see that sometimes you can hurt people. You can hurt people in anything. That's, again, me wanting to control what people see of me. I try to step away from that. It's very hard. So to be fair, I want to be as fair as possible and at least know that my voice means something. It may not be heard. And I heard what you said about legislature and trying to get through to be heard. And so I have to remember that my voice does count, that my voice is heard if it's only by those in my small circle or even by God, and then act on that. And so I may go and pick the best candidate and then vote that way, but at least I'm at a place now where I'm not just skipping it like I used to do all the time. Yes. You know, speaking of politics, I wanted to ask you, what is your earliest memory of politics? See you smiling over there.

[38:12] HOLLY BYERS: Well, it definitely. I think it had to have been a George Bush election. Which is the second one? George W. Or George. George. H.W. george W. George 2. George II.

[38:30] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. Yeah.

[38:31] HOLLY BYERS: I remember that election being highly charged. And we were still evangelical fundamental Pentecostal at that time. So we were very much like, if Al Gore wins, the country's gonna. He's the Antichrist. George Bush has got to win. And I was right there alongside with my family, very happy and relieved when he had won the election. That's my earliest. Earliest memory.

[38:52] FRED DA COSTA: Oh, I know that terminology. The Antichrist. Yeah, yeah. No, I feel that. I feel that. Okay, okay.

[39:00] HOLLY BYERS: So do you remember when you first became aware of politics?

[39:06] FRED DA COSTA: I think it just had to do with when my mom, she. It was amnesty. And I'm trying to think of what president that was I don't know if it was the first. Who was it that you said the two.

[39:23] HOLLY BYERS: George. I think it's George W. Bush. Not Herbert Walker. That is his dad.

[39:29] FRED DA COSTA: So it's George W. George W. Or maybe it was. I'll have to look. It was around when I was born. 79, 80.

[39:36] HOLLY BYERS: Okay. So now I'm sorry, we are talking about. Yeah. George H.W.

[39:39] FRED DA COSTA: Okay. Yeah. So it was around that. I mean, later on knowing that was when my mom became. Got. Got over to the United States. And so that. That was, I guess, the first recollection that otherwise I wouldn't have known. I didn't really pay much attention. So.

[39:57] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah. Okay.

[40:01] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. So good stuff here.

[40:08] HOLLY BYERS: So let's see. Is there a major issue that you've changed your mind on and why?

[40:17] FRED DA COSTA: Sure, I would say, and I love what you said earlier about growth. Life should allow space for growth. And one of those things that I feel like we're in a space of time where you have to be conclusive on everything. And it's because of where we put ourselves in judgment, we make ourselves the judges. And so whereas there is an ultimate judge and he actually is judging in our favor, which is a whole sermon.

[40:44] HOLLY BYERS: I'm not going to go into right now.

[40:46] FRED DA COSTA: But the thing is, because of our ability to put ourselves in that place. Your question. What was the question again?

[40:55] HOLLY BYERS: Is there a major issue you've changed your mind on and why.

[40:58] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah, sure. Okay. Say like lgbtq, which I'm probably. The name has changed some. I was raised in a tradition that wasn't even. It's not even that anyone spoke against it. It just was pretended like it never existed.

[41:13] HOLLY BYERS: Yes.

[41:14] FRED DA COSTA: And that's more hurt and harm because of our forefathers, our early pioneers. By doing that during that time, now everyone's looking back to see, you know, what. What did you do during that time? Being people that stand for this. What were you doing? And of course, there's always people that are. There's always those who are awake to what the gospel really is, but then ignoring it, not saying anything, and it gave me a distance until I started. A lot of my youth and young adults, I recognized these are. They're humans, and I love them. And if I was Jesus, I would love them and I wouldn't. Now there's a lot more to that and, you know, lifestyle and practices and all of these things that they're just none of my business other than just that people need to know that there is someone that will meet you where you're at, and that's that's where that's changed for me, I would say so.

[42:17] HOLLY BYERS: That's awesome.

[42:18] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. Well, I could actually. I'd love to ask you, was there a moment or time you experienced that? Okay. Was there a moment or time you experienced? Was there a moment or time you experienced? Was. Can I show that to you influenced your political beliefs? Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Was there a moment of time there was an experience that influenced your political beliefs?

[43:00] HOLLY BYERS: That's a really good question. The 2016 election, that was the one that went, oh, you can't just sit idly by. That was a big slap in the face for a lot of people. Big wake up call for many people, not just myself, but that, that was big and transformative. I did go from being an apathetic young adult to not so apathetic about it.

[43:33] FRED DA COSTA: That's cool. What was the 2016?

[43:38] HOLLY BYERS: That was President Trump.

[43:40] FRED DA COSTA: Trump.

[43:41] HOLLY BYERS: Didn't I say the right year? Okay, good.

[43:43] FRED DA COSTA: No, that's. I'm just showing you how. Yeah. Oh, yes. All right. Got it.

[43:48] HOLLY BYERS: Yes, thank you. Let me Clarify. In the 2016 election, I chose not to vote because I did not feel like I could make a choice between those two candidates. And I felt very certain about what was going to happen. And so the next morning I was like, oh, well, I can't do that again. I hope that better clarifies.

[44:07] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah, yeah. No, thank you. Thank you. Okay, well, do you have a question for me? Because I have one for you.

[44:14] HOLLY BYERS: No, go ahead first.

[44:15] FRED DA COSTA: Okay, well, has there been a political figure in your lifetime that you've admired?

[44:24] HOLLY BYERS: They didn't live in my lifetime. John Brown is one of my favorites. Also. Not really a political activist is. Oh, no, I've forgotten her name. She is the lady who worked so hard on the separation of church and state.

[44:47] FRED DA COSTA: Oh, gosh. Oh, is there a movie?

[44:50] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah, yeah. She was. She. She met a very tragic end, if I think we're talking about this.

[44:56] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah, we are.

[44:57] HOLLY BYERS: Let me, let me try and pick somebody else so I can actually say something coherent. Oh, Bernie Sanders. He's sort of given me some faith that politicians can retain their humanity.

[45:14] FRED DA COSTA: That's cool.

[45:15] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah.

[45:15] FRED DA COSTA: See, like hearing you say that's helpful for me because sometimes when you say a name, it comes charged with a lot of, like, you know, assumptions and. But when you. There's a part of whomever these people are that that resonates. And you said retaining your humanity, I think that's powerful. Yes, for me it was. And it's not even. Again, I have a very limited knowledge of Anything but I remember hearing. I liked the way Obama speaks. And I read his book.

[45:48] HOLLY BYERS: Oh, yeah.

[45:48] FRED DA COSTA: And I was like, I don't know. All the policies, I don't know. Some of the choices he made. I don't. But he just speaks very well and very clear and he feels like it's for the people. Others have said otherwise, but, I mean, I don't know.

[46:02] HOLLY BYERS: I agree with you. He's a great orator.

[46:04] FRED DA COSTA: Yeah. I have a spectacle. I need to preach like that. Maybe. I don't know.

[46:09] HOLLY BYERS: Well, this. I think this is a good question for you. How does your faith impact your political views? Or does it.

[46:16] FRED DA COSTA: Or does it. I don't. I always pick. Everything is polarized, and I pick the middle one. And I always point people to Jesus. But the problem is that you get pigeonholed, you know, like, if you. Everything, like from, like if I use an apple or I, I, you know, I like a certain team or I dress a certain. Like everything is under a lens, it seems like. And so there are times that I will be pigeonholed as being, you know, left or right. And so I was. I'll say. The way it influenced me is that I worried about that a lot. And so I find myself apologizing for what I'm standing for and over explaining.

[47:00] HOLLY BYERS: Yes.

[47:01] FRED DA COSTA: And so I've come to a place where I'm just trying to just, okay, you're going to be perceived as this sometimes and that sometimes, but as people get closer to you and enter into a conversation, they'll learn that this is where I'm at. And so. Yeah, no, that's a great question. Very good question. Question for you, Holly. What would help our country change for the better? Better.

[47:30] HOLLY BYERS: A better education system. It all starts with educating.

[47:34] FRED DA COSTA: So. Good.

[47:34] HOLLY BYERS: All of it.

[47:35] FRED DA COSTA: I agree. Yes. Education. Yeah. I have a. There's a school. It's a parochial little school attached to the church. And, you know, sometimes you. We can say that they're far removed from public, and there's always the public in the parochial discussion. But I think across all board, like, it needs to be. It needs to be that. So it needs to be. Education is huge. It is. So any questions for me, Holly?

[48:05] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah, let's see. Oh, what would progress look like to you?

[48:11] FRED DA COSTA: Progress like in the world?

[48:13] HOLLY BYERS: Let's just say in our country.

[48:15] FRED DA COSTA: Our country.

[48:16] HOLLY BYERS: Yeah.

[48:17] FRED DA COSTA: I would say more interviews like this on, like a large scale. I think when humans talk, it breaks walls down.

[48:26] HOLLY BYERS: It's reconciliation. This country needs reconciliation.

[48:30] FRED DA COSTA: That's. You're preaching again, Holly. That's exactly Right.

[48:33] HOLLY BYERS: I could have been a contender.

[48:38] FRED DA COSTA: And I feel like it always has to be. I hate that it has to do. I was like, what other than tragedy makes people just recognize that you're a human, just like me. And it's usually tragedy, unfortunately. And then we. No matter who you are, what you are, you're. You're working together for this cause. You know, some of the tragedies we've experienced, you know, but yeah, it would be sitting across the table, having a meal, having a conversation. To me would be that would be that. So and so what about you? I mean, what would you. How would you answer that?

[49:15] HOLLY BYERS: Oh, man. In so many different ways. But I want to speak to perspective taking because it's going to. This piggybacks off what you were saying, because we think it's down to empathy. But empathy is. I have to know what that feels like to care. Perspective taking is, I'm here, but I can see why you're over there. And if we were all able in this country to better adopt that, I think so much would be healed. And that would be progress is reaching for people's humanity first rather than going, how are they different? How can I push them away from me? How can I dehumanize them?

[50:04] FRED DA COSTA: That's so good. Yes.

[50:06] HOLLY BYERS: Very social answer. Not fiscal policy or things like that. But I think that and education are at the root of a lot of our issues.

[50:13] FRED DA COSTA: So if we were to take that, what you said, and plug that into, say, if there was a political issue that there could be progress on plugging in the education bit or whatever you wanted, what would you want to see progress on? You would say, if we were to. We were able to walk in and kick the door down and say, this is what we're doing.

[50:32] HOLLY BYERS: Well, there needs to be a war on poverty. There's been a war on drugs. There's been all sorts of wars, but where's the war on poverty?

[50:41] FRED DA COSTA: Yes.

[50:42] HOLLY BYERS: There's no reason we should have hungry kids in this country.

[50:45] FRED DA COSTA: I agree. I agree.

[50:47] HOLLY BYERS: More strong opinions. Yes.

[50:49] FRED DA COSTA: I love it. I love it.

[50:51] HOLLY BYERS: What are your hopes for the future?

[50:53] FRED DA COSTA: Hopes for the future? Man, that's a very general question. I mean, as far as you mean. I mean, there's like my life.

[51:03] HOLLY BYERS: Feel free to pick a topic. Yeah, within. Pick a topic within the topic. Your career or your life or your spiritual life or your career goals.

[51:11] FRED DA COSTA: Okay. You know, I want, if, you know, if I could step away. I feel like people like you have more of a reach than a pastor does in a pulpit.

[51:22] HOLLY BYERS: That's Very kind of you to say.

[51:24] FRED DA COSTA: Well, and it's because. It's because there's no pretense, there's no image or category that you're trying to fit. And as a pastor, we tend to try to make a declaration. I have a barber who, again, just as you are, Holly, is a better preacher than I am. And so if I were to say my hope for the future is to get away from perhaps not being a pastor, but that's the category of a pastor. And maybe doing this like speaking to people, because I hardly have a reach. I reach my community in the pews and then sometimes we'll do something out and do a canned food drive, which I think is phenomenal. And people are imagining more ways. We did a thing with the youth to try to help them to partner with the kids in the apartment complex. But I feel like it's kind of like we're in this thing and we're like, oh, let's peek out for a little bit. Whereas I want full. I want to be out there. And so if I were to say my hope for the future is to make more conversations like this and to someone to pay my electric bill while I. That's what I would say. What. Did I ask you that question? Did I ask you what your hopes for the future was?

[52:37] HOLLY BYERS: I don't think so. Or what it was something political. I think more about progress as the previous one. So my.

[52:44] FRED DA COSTA: I want to ask you the same thing. What are your hopes for the future? It could be career wise. It could be, you know, future of your children. It could be of the. Of Kansas. It could be.

[52:57] HOLLY BYERS: I think I'll go in. I'm going to zoom in on myself personally here and having experienced addiction for 10 years and not having a very good generational foundation for wealth or things like that, education, I've really had to not just start from scratch, start from the negative end of the number line, it seems like sometimes. So my hopes for the future is stability and to have enough and to not worry about housing and food and paying the bills and knowing that I am going to be able to pass something along to my daughter other than my mistake stakes. So that's my hope for the future.

[53:35] FRED DA COSTA: I feel like I might have to just throw mine out and then join with yours because there's the mindset of scarcity and then abundance and you can have the mentality of abundance in a scarcity situation. But. But how nice would it be that instead of focusing, I feel like. I don't know if you've seen the show alone where they give you 10 items, you go out into the wilderness.

[53:57] HOLLY BYERS: But I've heard of it. I have heard of it.

[53:58] FRED DA COSTA: Please watch it the whole season. I'm just joking. But, but what I end up finding is that I don't in this parenting thing now with a 2 year old and a 12 year old, it feels like that I know this, the scarcity you speak of. I know that the poverty line thing, when it gets to the end of the month, struggle. And I want to be able to start from here, start from and just be able to bless others not only with my words and but to be able to not have to worry about those things. And like you said, pass something down. So, yeah, I'm joining you.

[54:36] HOLLY BYERS: Okay.

[54:37] FRED DA COSTA: Thank you guys for the conversation.

[54:40] HOLLY BYERS: Thank you.