Holly Hatcher + Joe Gieck

00:01 Holly Hatcher. June 9, 2022. Age 47, Charlottesville, Virginia. Joe Gieck Charlottesville, Virginia.

00:14 Albemarle county, actually. And age 83 and counting, very near the WTJU studio.

00:29 All right, so the first question I want to ask both of you is, what made you want to come into the studio and record one of these conversations?

00:38 Because Holly said, we're going to do it.

00:43 I think I had heard about the One Small Step program last fall when it was on the news when it launched. And Joe immediately came to mind because we've been close friends now, family, since 2006. But I think, you know, ideologically speaking, in the political sense, we probably couldn't. We're pretty far apart, but we love each other somewhat.

01:17 Yes.

01:18 Great. So this is unlike some of our past interviews, because you know each other. I'm just going to have each of you spend a minute describing yourselves. So, where you grew up, any key events that have happened in your life recently or when you were younger and where you are and what you do now in life.

01:40 Well, I grew up in Southwest Oklahoma and New Mexico out there, and both grandparents had homesteaded out there. And we. So when my dad worked with the Soil Conservation Service in Southwest Oklahoma, we'd always be out on a ranch and a farm by it as much as we could in just a different environment than what it is here in Charlottesville.

02:08 But then you came to Charlottesville.

02:10 Yeah, I came to Charlottesville, actually, the day that William Faulkner died. Came on the old Southern Railroad, and you saw nothing but clotheslines and dirt roads on a train. And I said, let me get this interview over here and get out of here. But it was just. But then I interviewed and was offered the job as the head athletic trainer at the University of Virginia. And I said, well, I'll take the job for a year or two. So I find something better out in the Southwest and is still looking for it. Just a different, different. Just different environment that is here. Just, you know, just. And you. And you get your friends and, you know, you just. You don't want to leave. Yeah.

02:56 How long have you been here? When was.

02:57 What are the dates of that? 62.

02:59 62. And you retired from UVA?

03:01 I retired in 2005, and when we retired, we built a place in Montana. So we're out there. Matter of fact, we're getting ready to leave next week to go out there for the summer. No heat, no humidity, no cars, no traffic, no people. Sounds lovely and just very relaxing. Thank you. Holly. You were out there a couple years ago and Enjoyed the pancakes at the campfire very much. Yeah.

03:35 Well, so when you retired, that's when you got on the Community foundation board, Right?

03:45 Well, right before I retired. Right before I enjoyed going in every day. But it just time to get on, do something else while you're healthy. And went down to Community foundation and I had a donor advised fund with Fidelity and went down there and saw that the Community foundation had one as well. So went there and talked to John Reddick about the program and got involved with that and then ran into this gal, Holly Hatcher down there and sort of took her under my wing, so to speak.

04:22 Yeah. So I came to Charlottesville in 2001 after grad school, also thinking I wasn't going to stay here very long. But it has a way of sucking you in. And did some community organizing in nonprofit work from 2001 to 2006. But then I became the first director of programs for the Charlottesville Area Community Foundation. And you were on the board. So you were one of the first people I really got to know at the foundation and. Well.

05:05 And you were doing that Youth Service award. That was something I had worked with at the university with athletes and students and being an advisor in the academic programs. So it sort of piqued my interest.

05:21 That's right, because you chaired the Youth Service Award committee. And I staffed it for how many years? Two or three?

05:28 Well, yeah, probably we had war. I was trying to think who was there before that. Dennis Barnes. Barnes. Dennis Barnes was there. And then I got on with Dennis and helped Dennis. Then Dennis stepped back and it was something that was really a worthwhile thing, developing leadership within the seniors in high school and just sort of sorry to see that drop along the way.

06:02 Yeah. So that was a nine month program. So we saw each other. Was it once a month? I think so. We got to know each other pretty well and. Yeah. And made each other laugh because of how different we were.

06:22 Well, not so much that I just. Just personality sort of clicked, I think. I think so in terms of, you know, just enjoying one another, things that you're doing and so forth. I think that's true. Became like the third daughter. You got two other daughters, but you're number three.

06:40 I appreciate that title very much. You kind of became like a dad number three. Because I. My dad, my stepdad, and then. And then Papa Joe, as we like to call you now. So. Yeah, that's how we've gotten to know each other. Yeah. So I'll have you just move through the questions then. So if you want to start with number three and then kind of go down. You can each take turns responded to. You can ask each other and I'll step in as needed. Joe, who has been the most influential person in your life and what did they teach you?

07:23 Well, I think probably just thinking back, I hadn't really thought about it, but probably my mother, you know, and just the fact that. And she was completely different politically than my dad and I but just the fact that what she, what she did within the community as far as helping people and being involved big in the aauw, which I don't know what still exists anymore, but just that and active in the church and really didn't ever push you but just sort of led by example and sort of the things you never really thought about doing. But I mean you sort of. Well, those are sort of the things that you did. And in her shadow, so to speak. How about yourself?

08:12 I would say my dad and for similar reasons in that I think he also led by example and so even it was an interesting upbringing and that's. I felt like sometimes his actions didn't always match up with his politics which probably influenced me and my, you know, kind of my beliefs and where I am today. But he always took care of people. It didn't matter their background. He was known to be a helper and he basically, you know, taught me to be a helper.

08:55 Well, that basically is. You're describing what my mother was. Yeah, yeah.

09:06 So what's your first memory of politics?

09:10 Well, I think you go back to the World War II and what this was after Roosevelt when Truman came in was sort of how he sort of led the country in terms of getting it back on keel after the war was over, developing the Marshall Plan that was there. And he was sort of a no nonsense type guy. I didn't really consider him that much political. The politics to me really never entered in until you. Until after Kennedy really everything seems sort of meshed to see what's best for the country and that's the way people seem to go. But once after the Kennedy administration and get into the Johnson administration, things seemed to flare up in different directions.

10:15 In what way? What do you mean by that?

10:17 Well, just in terms of. Of people, how they felt the country should go and how it should not go in terms I guess in the civil rights piece was one of the best things initially. But later on to me what's come is just it's been a situation to where it's become more of a welfare type program to me rather than. And again I've been in education all my life and see people just disdain. Education to me, basically is the train that drives equality, it drives opportunity, it drives equal opportunity and social mobility. And so many people. And even going forward to today, that's a piece in this country that's not picked up by so many people. They don't pick that piece up. And the other piece was the piece about the respect and accountability and responsibility in this country. Doesn't seem like that. That seems to have changed since you go back to the Kennedy administration and everybody was more responsible and felt a responsibility and a loyalty to the country as to where you go forward till today to where it's people just outright were from flag burning to whatever comes upon their mind at that point in time. And there's not really that camaraderie in the country that it was earlier.

12:04 Do you think public education isn't supported?

12:07 Well, I think that the, it's not so much the educational model. I think the educational model there is fine to a certain degree, but by the same token, the parental responsibility, you know, when you grew up, you just, you know, your parents were there and make sure you had your homework done and, and make sure you're going to school and you went to make sure you met with the teachers. And now what you hear described with the teachers you've got, the viewpoint is don't ever call me about my child or don't ever, or I want to micromanage everything my child does from talking to the teachers that are out there and so many of them. And there's not the male role model in the family anymore. It just, it's just out there. And so the kids hang out with themselves and create their own values and their own standards in their own culture. And to me, which has sort of gone away from where it was when you come back, you go back to the early 60s.

13:22 We could probably get into a long debate about history and what happened up to 1960 that might have caused all of that.

13:30 But, well, and so many people, and you come back about in the Southern value, so much of it. If you didn't really live in the south, you really didn't understand the South. And that's what people. So many people are like the old saying, if you didn't read Gone with the Wind, you don't understand the South. And while the, the slavery was a model that was reprehensible, but by the same token, that was the model that was there at the time. And people basically, matter of fact, my grandparents were in Kentucky and During the Civil War, they got burned out, and so they had to leave everything and migrate out west aspect. But you never heard them say anything bad about it. Just the way it was.

14:24 Right.

14:25 You know, she came through.

14:28 I do remember. I think that's one of my earliest memories of getting to know you was you drove this truck with some bumper sticker on it about welfare. I can't remember what it said, except that it was disparaging.

14:43 And I was like, oh, yeah, Republican, because not everybody can be on welfare.

14:47 Yes, yes. And I always had a problem with that. And yet we've always, I don't know, still somehow managed to still be friends and have conversations. I think my first job, as you know, here in Charlottesville was working with public housing residents, which was a really interesting introduction to Charlottesville that not a lot of friends my age that I've met here have to Charlottesville. You know, they come in and they're pretty. Say it's. Even though it's a small town, it's pretty easy to stay in your own bubble if you want to, and not really understand the complexity and diversity of the community. And so going from that to then going over to the foundation side and working with all of these individuals who are, you know, doing good for the community, but not necessarily coming from perspectives where they fully understand all the challenges of the community, I think was pretty eye opening. You know, I think. Yeah, I just. I think it's. It's hard to fully understand unless you've taken a walk in somebody else's shoes. So.

16:18 But to me, growing, like I say, when you. When we went west, both grandparents sets and grandparents homesteaded.

16:26 Yeah.

16:26 So if you didn't work, you didn't eat, you didn't eat, you starved. And you've got people that were out there that had a hard time as well, but you helped take care of them. But they had the accountability, the responsibility that was involved. So in today, so much of it, you see, there's not the accountability. You don't see the responsibility of their life that's out there for so many of them. And the one thing that really bothers me is that food bank bit. I mean, you go down there, people, £300, they're hungry, but they're not underweight. You know, just that. And they don't. How do you manage your food? They say, well, all I can do is eat. At Hardee's. Well, you don't have to eat six cheeseburgers. You can just eat one. But, you know, I thought that response. Well, and that's why I say, well, that's from that aspect of it. Just the more of the accountability and responsibility regardless of your station in life.

17:31 Do you think that sometimes it's hard for people though to have to take responsibility? Just one things that come to mind are, you know, perhaps their own upbringing not being taught the right things, you know, mental health, the fact that we have a horrible diet in the west that doesn't really lend itself to obesity.

17:59 What's wrong with chicken fried steak which you don't have to eat six of them but out there you don't see the obesity in the that you see back in the East.

18:09 Interesting.

18:11 And again that comes back from people more hard working. But again it goes back to me, goes back to parenting if you're not for education and your child doesn't get an education. We're down at Acacia and this black kid was there and I said, well, what are you doing? He said, I'm going to Piedmont to get my computer science. You can tell he wasn't janitorial material. And it sort of befriended him. And you said, well? He said hard. He said, well, it wasn't hard. He said, what's hard? He said, well, my friends, because they accused me wanting to be white and wanting to be an Uncle Tom because I'm trying to get an education, which parents don't bring you up like that. I mean, to me the most stable element in society is a married black family because they have that male in the family to help and you don't have that. And whether it's black or white, I mean, if you don't have a male white father figure in the family, it's the same way you just grow up on what you learn on the streets rather than what was taught or what was emphasized by your parents. You know, when we came on, you didn't think about not going to college. That's just what you're going to do. You know, just automatic. That was, that was what your parents expected you to do and that's what you did.

19:33 Yep, true. But I'll also say, you know, my dad, well a couple things. One is the only way my dad got his degree was because he joined the army. Right. So we, you know, he was born in Georgia and I think about how different my life would be had he never joined the army. Right. I mean, talk about the deep South. I, you know, and so he, it took him 13 years to earn his degree while he was serving our country. My mom didn't get her degree until the day I graduated from College because she didn't go back to school until I went back to school because she was a lab technician for years and then went into business and then decided to go back and get her degree. And so I'm grateful that they encourage me. And they, like you, saw that as a ticket. But I also think about their parents who came before them, and I think that, you know, socioeconomics comes into play. Right. Like, it's a. It's a lot harder to go get that college education if, you know, you're poor. It's a lot harder if you don't have parents who have been in college themselves or educated themselves. It's harder if you have mental illness or health issues. And so I always try to think about what are the barriers that are out of people's control that might prevent them or make it harder for them.

21:09 You don't have to go to college.

21:11 That too. Right.

21:12 Go down. You can still be successful, H Vac.

21:15 Business and make more money than some.

21:17 College, become a welder. But you have something in life that you strive for that's going to enable you to contribute to society, and that's the piece you don't, like. I don't mean to say that you got to go to college or you're dead. It's something that you got to be able to grow up and contribute to society in some way. And that focus has to come from your parents to start with, so that you go, rather than all about me. And it's all, here we are out here. What are we supposed to be doing for the community?

21:54 Yeah. I mean, not everybody gets. Gets good parents.

21:58 Yeah, exactly. And that's.

22:00 And that's not their fault. I mean, also, like, you know, as much as I love, you know, all my dads, I would say that I have friends who, you know, are single moms, and they've done a great job of raising their kids.

22:16 Sure.

22:17 And putting them through college and teaching them the value of education. And they did it all on their own. And, you know, as, you know, my dad was a single dad, so my parents divorced early, and it was very unusual in the 80s to have the dad being the primary caregiver. So even though, you know, I had a relationship with my mom and she was in our lives, she was. She didn't raise us right for 14 years. She wasn't near us proximity wise. So I definitely. It also gave me an appreciation for the importance of, you know, single parents, whether they're male or female, and just that, you know, that families look different to different People. But there are core values I think we both agree on, which is like, you know, teaching people to be helpers, teaching people to strive and educate themselves and take care of each other and be good citizens. Right. Give back, I think, is what I heard you say. Be responsible.

23:27 That's what you had on the ranch out the West. I mean, you had a farmer that was injured. You went over and brown and got the community, went over and helped brand his cattle, you know, or take care of them. And same way he would do it was just something naturally you did. You didn't go down, hang out on the corner and smoke cigarettes. You know, you went and you're always out working and doing things. That was growing up there was not that part of society out there, you know, everywhere from. And you go hunting and you bring your guns to school and show the superintendent and the superintendent show you the guns he's got in his truck. And society has completely changed from that aspect of it.

24:15 So I want to jump in because you both have talked just now about values and kind of things that are important. And so I want to ask kind of about values and then also how that translates into your personal political beliefs or the ideology you kind of identify with right now and maybe how that. How that came about.

24:36 Well, I think when we were out in the west, my fact, Oklahoma, Oklahoma, it's got 77 counties. They're all Republican. But it was all the idea of you just worked hard and you helped your neighbor, but you didn't necessarily help the guy that would just sit on his tail and not work aspect of it. So that was sort of the philosophy that we grew up with, is that you took care of the people that weren't able to. That wanted to be, but the person would just sit over there and wouldn't do anything. That was sort of the attitude that you didn't. But you didn't see that many people out there. But everybody was trying to. The ones that you saw. I mean, you had maybe two or three slackers in the community, but most of them, everybody had that work ethic piece. So that was sort of the value that I had picked up.

25:41 Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think for me is just growing up with, like, lots of contradictions. So, you know, having, like, I guess the way I was raised and then getting educated, as you say, like, introduced me to, like, history and facts that explained. Helped explain why things were a lot more complicated than they're always, you know, made out to be. Right. So I'm trying to think of a good example. But, you know, I guess, well one, you know, like my beliefs have formed over, I guess in response to being raised by conservatives and being raised by born again evangelicals and comparing like things that they were saying with what I was actually experiencing through my relationships, through my work experience, through friendships, you know, through my travels. And it just didn't always, you know, match up. Like going back to my, I'll, I'll give a couple examples. One is going back to my first political memory. It was hearing my parents talk about female running for vice president and that was Geraldine Ferraro in the early 80s. And I think, although, you know, memory is always blurry, that my mom was actually excited about it, although she's only gotten more, you know, conservative over the years. But you know, the fact that I now have a daughter and it's taken this long to get, you know, a woman, a female vice president, to me, you know, in 400 years of this democracy is pretty, pretty depressing. Right? So that's one example. And then the other one is just, I think what makes this country unique, including your story, your grandparents story, and my parents, parents and grandparents and their story. And so much of the rest of the US is just how diverse, how many different experiences they are in this country that make up this country. And so, and I also think of that like the example I want to give is just, you know, even sexual orientation. Like I've just learned that it's really nobody's business and love is love. And I've kind of rejected the very judgy, judgmental, shaming tone, I guess that I grew up with. Right. I kind of need, I as you know, when we met, I wasn't even dating and Now I'm raising 8 and a 10 year old. So I think about like the world I want them to grow up in and the type of people I want them to grow into. And that's people that, like you said, believe in the value of work, are helpers, but also, you know, don't run around pointing their fingers at everyone being judgmental because the world is a really complex place and it's made up of lots of different perspectives and people chat.

29:41 That's how societies change. You know, there's four things in life that are sure, death, taxes, poor officiating and change. And they all come around. You think about when you were a child and well, things have changed and let alone where I was, things have changed. And you think about your people my age saying all everything's going to hell in a handbasket well, that's what my parents used to say.

30:06 Every generation says that.

30:08 Every generation says that.

30:09 I actually think things are getting better. And I have. I think what, you know, the past several years have been super challenging, and I think it's easy to get despondent. But what gives me hope is the youth, actually. And, you know, I mean, we used to work on the youth service committee together. We used to see and mentor youth together. And, you know, quite frankly, I look at my kids and even the students that are graduating this month, both college level and high school level, and I'm like, thank God for them. They're the ones that are going to save us. So.

30:51 Well, and that. And that's, to me, goes back to what we're talking about, is how you get, how you guide your children as a parent. And if all parents guided their children like you do, you know, like, say you to me, as you talk about responsibility and accountability, that's our two. Two daughters. You know, they came along, they were. They were responsible and accountable. I mean, remember they went out in September, shorts and T shirts, and all of a sudden had frost one night. And they went out and said, you got to have coach. I said, leave them alone. They went out, they about froze to death. Happened at the bus next day, they had coach. But having that responsibility. And when they got into high school, it's okay. You're in high school. No curfew. Yes, but I said, you just mess it up one time and there'd be a curfew every time you walk out that door. And they never one time abused that with that saying. It was just trying to teach them, you take responsibility and you're accountable for your own actions now. And some of the things that we wouldn't, you say, okay, well, you did this. What do you think the punishment should be? Well, there's no computer. Then, well, how about two weeks of no tv? And I said, well, how about a week with no tv? That way you got punished, but you're still a nice guy. And you kept moving them around, moving them along. The things that's interesting, the things your children will remember about you is sometimes just the little things. I wouldn't get home till after supper, and they were in bed from working, and you'd always read them, make up a little story for them. Those are the things that they remembered. We went out to Kmart one time, and he got in the car to leave, and I said, oh, I forgot to pay for this, and went back and paid for it. And you say, think about It. And that's one of the things they remember to this day. And I mean, they're just as honest, you know, as the day is long, in fact, because you remember you went back and paid for that. You didn't have to pay for it. But those are the little things like that, you know, Hatcher will remember.

33:06 Well, that's good parenting. But not everyone has the benefit of good parents.

33:11 They don't. And that's what I keep emphasizing. Poor parenting skills are what's interfering with really the good.

33:23 But do we punish people because they don't have good parents?

33:26 Well, you can, but you got to have rules within society. Well, like the parent. The parent, the kid bought a AK47 or one of those guns, and the parent knew about it and just let them. I mean, again, you go back to parenting. Why would you let the child do that? And that's. It's. It's not the fact that, you know, and again, it was. The gun was there. But by the same token, and in here, in. That's in Charlottesville, that the kid brings a gun to school and the parent knew about it. What's this about? This doesn't make any sense from a societal standpoint that you as a parent would let that happen.

34:24 Oh, I just want to jump in to ask, are there issues or events that are happening now that you find yourself responding to in your head or just thinking about a lot? And what is your. What is at the top of your mind right now?

34:42 Well, this is the one thing right now that's on the mind of society. You know, what's going. But by the same token, if you go back to parenting, if you. What's that parent thinking about? He goes out and buys an A. An AR15 or AK47 and brings it home. And they're unbalanced to start with, and they let that happen.

35:07 But I think that's more than just parenting. Like, I'm curious if you. Because another, you know, similarity that I think we share and that I know what my dad shared with you is just growing up with guns, right? And I remember I had a. My dad bought me a BB gun when I was 10, and I would shoot cans down in Georgia when we go down, but I'm terrified right now to raise children in this country with the gun laws that we have. And yes, it's bad parenting to, like, let a kid have a AR15, but should anybody have an AR15? Like, can we just. Could you just, you know, keep your rifle and keep it locked? Why do you have to have AR15. I was listening on the news today, that attack. What's that?

35:57 You never know when the Indians are going to attack.

36:00 Also not okay, Joe. Yeah, that's not good.

36:04 But by the same token, where do you draw the line? Do you draw a line at semi, automatic, automatic, single?

36:10 What I'm saying is we should be drawing the line. And I would rephrase like your question as to like, we don't know when the English colonists are going to attack because it was actually the Native Americans land before, you know, the settlers showed up and colonized this place. But I mean again, like, I don't think anyone in this society needs an AR15. And I heard on the radio today that like, you know, basically like elementary school children were decapitated. Right. Because of the force of that gun. Like that's, it's just horrifying all the.

36:53 Life you've got a pistol, it's got a 15 shell magazine. Where do you draw the line? Somebody breaks in your house, you draw the line.

37:01 In common sense, gun laws like a pistol and a rifle is way different than a military weapon.

37:07 You got a military weapon that's got a 15 round magazine and you've got a handgun that's got a 15 round magazine. You still have the force of the bullet.

37:19 But you yourself said that some parents have no sense. So then what do you do? What's society's role and then in drawing the line? Because other western countries don't have these problems with guns, they draw the line. Like where would you draw the line? Because I'm terrified to send my kids to school now.

37:36 Oh yeah, it's all together. Like I say, when we grew up, we took guns to school. What? Yeah, we took gun. And the superintendent, we take him out in our pickup, show him the gun that we had and he'd go over and show us the car, the gun that he had.

37:52 Yes, times have changed.

37:54 Yeah. That they've completely changed in what's going on in terms of the gun was the gun.

38:01 But knowing that some people have no sense, where do you draw the line?

38:10 Well, that's again, that's the question is where you, where you do. And to me goes back to having some sort of parenting class or some sort of parenting skills that are out there for parents to model.

38:26 But, but still everyone gets to carry around an AR15.

38:29 Yeah. But by the same token, if I can carry an AR, I can carry an AR15 around. I'm not going to shoot anybody. But you know, you never know when somebody's going to come on Your property. That's, that's with less intent than what they should. And I'm not, I'm not advocating for an AR15. To me, it's, what you see is the, is that 18, 19. And I think it'll be probably a 21 year old.

38:58 So you would agree that what the House voted on yesterday, you'd be okay with raising the age 21?

39:04 Oh, yeah, 21. Yeah, sure. Because your brain really doesn't form completely till you're about 25.

39:15 Right.

39:16 But you're not. But you're not. But your frontal lobes aren't fully formed. They're not forming. And then you add the tremendous impact of drugs in this country and alcohol that just mess it. The frontal lobe is what's dictating what you're thinking about in terms of morality, in terms of things that you're doing. And you get drugs in there, into there and alcohol in that area, then you completely, I mean, it's like the people that you see, the fraternities out there with things that they're doing, people standing on roofs and so forth like that after drinking.

40:01 And also they don't have any sense.

40:03 Yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, but that, and these are people that are educated, are being educated.

40:09 But, you know, but could you at least say that, you know, our society doesn't need military style weapons? Do you think you'd be able to protect yourself?

40:19 The problem is where you draw the line. What's military style?

40:23 Military style?

40:24 Yeah.

40:25 Well, I feel like there's definitions. I mean, do you need to.

40:29 But under the Constitution, you're able to arm yourself. There's no definition on the type of weapon that you use. I mean, you can have a butcher knife. How long did you have the butcher knife? You know, if the society gets in to start stabbing everybody. Now, can you just use paring knives? Can you use a butcher knife? Or just. And again, it's not so much the knife or the gun or whatever it is, it's the individual that's out there that's using it. But you see, you know, people that they're doing a lot of target range shooting and they do that with, with the military style weapons and they enjoy the recreational shooting with that AR15 or whatever they're using.

41:17 Would you support red flag laws?

41:21 Well, yeah. Oh, yeah. But again, you go back to who's instituting the red flag, and you have people that they'll go to get somebody in Red flag him, but then the person, well, he's okay. And there's something I Can't. It may have been one of the shooters had been red flagged, but then whoever had gone to assess that situation assessed. Well, he doesn't need to be red flagged.

41:55 Right. And that's what. Yeah, but I mean, terrifying is that we can. There doesn't really seem to be a solution. So I'm going to jump in here to pivot because we are hitting around the 40 minute mark. You've addressed this a little bit, but I wonder if you could talk about instances where have you ever felt in your personal life or in your professional life, if there have been times where you've had misunderstandings with people who have different beliefs than you or have kind of challenged the way that you see issues or events like right now could be, or, you know, formative memories that you have?

42:38 Well, you see it all the time. But again, to me, it's as much personality as it is the view. I mean, you respect your views. I don't necessarily agree with all of them. But you respect you as a person. But some people that are socially obnoxious, I guess, for lack of a better word, you have a difficult time dealing with them and their views where you take two people side by side. One person you deal with, fine. The other person you can't deal with at all. But it has to do more with their obnoxious personality than their actual views.

43:21 Yeah, I think there's a. I would agree with that in that, I don't know, we've seemed to have lost the ability to be kind and be friends with each other, despite our differences. And, you know, that's why I think I wanted to have the conversation with you, is because somehow we've been friends, even though I pretty much disagree with most of what comes out of your mouth when it comes of politics or beliefs or values.

43:52 Your dad felt that way. Exactly. He said, but they won't let me say Trump in the house.

43:58 Right. Exactly. I say, on the flip side, are there things that you do respect or value about your partner, like your partner, the conversation, your partner's views, or maybe not necessarily agree with them, but you can kind of understand them a bit better. I mean, I value Joe's, I mean, view on, you know, view on hard work and how you've lived your life. Right. So you're not just wagging your finger at everyone. You've spent your whole career mentoring people, and that's been your gift to our community. And I think, you know, you live your words and you're a man of your word and you've Also done it with levity and humor, which I think is also kind of the secret to our friendship and could be a good model for other people who differ so greatly is that we're still able to, you know, laugh and be friends and be kind to each other.

45:11 Well, we got to know each other before the politics and that was always the piece that was in the forefront for me was you as a person. Now your views, you have. Yeah, well, that's your views. Those are not views that I have necessarily, but. But it changes nothing about how I feel about you. And that's sort of the way that again we talked about is the person that you can respect that has different views as opposed to the obnoxious personality that has the same views. So to me it's as much about the person as it is the particular views. Oh yeah, I've got some people that, you know, they, I've got one good friend that she won't even speak to somebody that are a Democrat.

46:02 So I was going to ask, that's actually a perfect lead. And I was going to say are there people who are similar, like, who are like minded politically but that you disagree with in the way that they.

46:12 Oh yeah, I've gotten one very close friend that's that way. I mean it just. If they own a business and they're a Democrat, won't shop there.

46:25 Yeah, I would say I have family members who are like that and they're just not really helping our society any by being that way. Yeah. Do you mean people who are liberal who refuse to interact? No, I have family members who are so conservative they won't engage, you know, with anyone. And I think they, that's different from them. And if they do, it's in a very kind of hostile way. And you know, I think that's kind of unfortunately how we've gotten to be where we are in 2022 in our society is just as Joe said, not taking the time to get to know somebody first and realizing that we're all humans living on this earth together and that there might be more to us than our political views. Are there things that people who are similar to you like other people who are more maybe liberal minded that they do or say that you kind of have a hard time with? Yeah, it's the same kind of thing. It's the gosh, I have a friend, you know, I think it's again, it's a lot of finger pointing and judgmental behavior and you know those people without actually getting to know those people and understanding like I said that things are more complex. So it's. I think it's really easy on both sides of the aisle to point fingers and just write everybody off and generalize them. And I don't think that's how you get to solutions. It's not how you find common ground. So I want to ask, as one of our kind of closing questions, if you could each share, you know, maybe a favorite memory that you have with the other in your 15, 16 years of friendship.

48:29 There just hasn't been many. I guess probably the.

48:33 Tell us a story.

48:34 One of. Just the. One of the first is just when you were working there. I said, well, let's just go get something to eat and. Okay, yeah, very comfortable with that. And then we went over to the Mexican restaurant and just sort of got to know each other from that aspect of it. And I think the friendship just developed from there, just from that aspect of it. Some of the things I think that were going on in the office weren't necessarily the way you wanted it to go. So you can talk to me about things.

49:07 Yes. You've always been a good coach. So one of my earliest memories is you coming into the office. And I was probably. It's my first year in the job, and you asked what I was, I think, doing for the weekend or, you know, and I think I made some comment that, you know, talked about being single. And you gave one of your very best geekisms, which is the only thing worse than being alone is wishing you were. And I've never forgotten it. And then in the next six months, I met my husband. And then, despite our political differences, you invited us to get married on your farm. And that's definitely the best memory is when you, Ms. Sally, opened up our home and we had lots of liberals on your farm dancing the night away. And it was. It meant a lot to me.

50:06 Well, it meant a lot to us that you guys would want to do that at our place. Yeah.

50:11 Yeah. That's wonderful. And one question I'm trying to ask more, and I think you said this already, but do you consider yourself thinking about the future, you know, more optimistic or more concerned or pessimistic? And, you know, what are you. What do you hope to see?

50:35 Or what do you.

50:36 What do you look forward to in the future?

50:39 Well, my stage of the game, I'm not even buying green bananas, but, you know, I used to always raise to be optimistic even, you know, you know, the thing on the ranch and the farm, you never did. A lot of times you didn't make Any money. But it's going to be better next year, it's going to rain next year. You know, all these other things because that was just the optimism. You wouldn't be in the, you wouldn't be in the farming or the ranching business if you weren't optimistic because it was just, well it's going to get better next year, the price will be better next year. And maybe it was, maybe it wasn't on the next year. It's the same way. So you had that and then it just that, you know, interesting when you, when you cross the Mississippi, the attitude just gets so much different. I mean there's more of an optimistic attitude out there rather than people. Mark, you don't see everybody's a libertarian out there. Nobody marched around with signs or mad at somebody or it just sort of that difference in. Truman said that the only people that went west were the strong and the weak died along the way and the timid stayed back in the east and interbred. So that was the difference in the societies.

52:02 Well, it's interesting, I'm trying to tie it all together here, but I would say despite well intentioned, loving parents, I actually grew up with pretty negative messages and not very hopeful outlooks on life. And I've had to learn that. And so I would say that not everybody gets the right role models just by birth. But I've been really lucky to have people like you and others in my life who've helped me become more optimistic. And it's really been hard, I think the last couple years being a parent of young children, to not feel hopeless. But I really go back and I'm glad we talked today because I really go back to our time together mentoring youth and I really, that's where I have hope is I believe in, I believe in the future and I believe that the youth that are coming up today are just going to do it better than we, than we did.

53:22 Well, I just hope so. You know the thing that you see that when we grew up you didn't see the, the drug scene, you didn't see the dysfunction, the suicides and that aspect of you. Every school has got a suicide every year. Back when we grew up, you didn't even think about that. I mean that was more of that optimism. But you see what is that within the youth that are thinking that? I mean one of the deans at the universities on this, every Monday they call over to the hospital and see who's tried to commit suicide over the weekend, you know, and just that. And it's got to be that negative influence there. But by the same token, you continue to keep plugging along and hoping things are going to be better. And so that's what I say as you, you work with Maddie and Hatcher you know, things are, you're pushing them. Things are going to get better. And here's how you make things better and here's what you do and here's what you're involved in and aren't you happy that you did this? And what do you want to do? And again, it goes back to parenting to me. And there's so many parents that are dysfunctional out there. Almost to me, you need a license to drive a car, but you don't need a license to breed. You know, almost need to have some sort of parenting class or something before you would do, you know, before you get involved. But it's just not what we didn't think about. So guess what we got coming on? You know.

55:06 I think we could keep talking and debating for, oh, yeah. But I'm really glad we did this.

55:14 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.