Honore Bray and Elizabeth Jonkel

[00:01] HONORE BRAY: My name is Honore Bray. I'm 69 years old. Today's date is February or Friday. Sorry, Friday, June 10, 2022. The location is Missoula, Montana. My interview partner is Elizabeth Jonkel, and Elizabeth and I worked together for many years and are friends.

[00:24] ELIZABETH JONKEL: My name is Elizabeth Jonkel. I was born in 1967. Today's date is Friday, June 10, 2022. We are in Missoula, Montana. I am interviewing Honore Bray, and as she said, we are work colleagues for many years, but we also are friends. So I have brought Honore here today to have a conversation about the impact she's had, not just in Missoula, with the creation of the new library that was built here in 2020, I think was the official end date for that project, but also for her influence in the state of Montana. As an educator, a librarian, as somebody who has done a great deal to shape librarianship in this state, has had a profound impact on how library services are provided in Missoula and in the state of Montana. So I'm going to start by just describing you as a true Montanan. In my opinion, you were born and raised in Anaconda and Butte. You were married here. You've raised a family here. You operate a working ranch with a head of cattle with your husband, Don. You've been a schoolteacher, an extension agent, a home economics instructor, and most importantly, you've been a librarian, one who has been dedicated to serving the educational information needs of Montana across the entire state. So can you speak to how being from the great state of Montana shaped your life and your life choices? Did being a Montana, a Montanan, create the thoughtful, driven, inspired person that you are today?

[02:20] HONORE BRAY: Well, I do believe that I'm a strong woman because I was raised in Montana. The great outdoors, the cold, crisp weather, amazing people I've had in my life. And all of that has strengthened me and helped me create my driven personality, and I am very driven. As you know, I was raised by a single mom after my dad passed away when I was five years old. And so my grandparents had a profound influence on my life. One set of grandparents immigrated from Italy and the other ones from Ireland, and they were very happy to be Americans and to be in Montana and thought that it was the best place you could live. They encourage both my sister and I to live healthy and work hard to reach our goals, and I believe those are the type of people who moved to Montana. My mom owned an ice cream shop when I was a child, and I always tried to go out and wait on people, and I would get sent to the back because I wasn't old enough. And while I was in the back, I would be making potholders on one of those little looms, and I would go out and sell them in the neighborhood. And when I was ten, I got my first job cleaning a beauty shop in anaconda. And I did that all the way through high school, even though after I got out of the 8th grade, I also had a job working at the a and w as a car hop. And I've had a job ever since then. I've never been without a job since I was ten years old. And I learned to work for what I wanted. And when somebody said no, to find a way to always bring them to the answer of yes. It was something that I learned very early to be a negotiator. And so I really believe that that is how Montana people are and work.

[04:27] ELIZABETH JONKEL: So you've worked your whole life until now?

[04:30] HONORE BRAY: Yes.

[04:30] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Because now you're retired.

[04:31] HONORE BRAY: Yeah, I still have work. We still own a ranch.

[04:37] ELIZABETH JONKEL: So what is your favorite memory of growing up in Montana? So, I mean, I know probably three favorite memories.

[04:47] HONORE BRAY: Elizabeth. One was growing up in anaconda. The commonsense is a really special place for people. They put a big Christmas tree up every year, and it stays up from early November or late October through the winter because it lights up the ice skating rink. And as children, we went to the ice skating rink every day. It was free. It was a great place to be with other kids, and parents never worried about you. And so as we got older and in high school, we probably skated after 09:00 at night because all the little kids were gone home. But also all of our activities at school were over so we could go there. So I still love to go watch people skate there. When I go visit my family, I just think it's been a real treasure to the community and it's still there, which is really amazing. Secondly, I spent a lot of time in Butte growing up because my mom worked summers and I had to stay with my grandparents. And so my best friend in Butte's grandmother owned one of the concession stands at the Columbia Gardens. And we would go out there with her and we would help her serve soda and water during her busy time. And then the rest of the day we got to spend playing at the gardens and riding the rides. And, you know, the rides were really exciting, but the swings and the flowers were probably the most captivating because they would have, like, ten by ten pieces of ground that were covered in pansies shaped into the shape of a butterfly or something, and you just never saw that anywhere else. It was really amazing, and it was really fun. You know, it was a fun place to be always, but. And pretty devastating when it burned down. It wasn't devastating just to the people from Butan Anaconda, but I think for the whole state because it was something that most people remember. And then the last experience was my uncle, who was my, basically my father figure growing up, was a teacher in Butte, and he worked at Glacier park in the summertime. And my grandmother and grandfather would take me up there and we would go spend one or two weeks at a time with him and get to play in Glacier park, which was just an amazing experience. And besides getting to do that, I learned a lot about what it was for people to have work families, because these people would come to Montana and to the park every summer and work together, and they trusted each other and respected each other and really became a support system for each other. And I think that was really my very first experience about what work relationships should really be like. And so those are the three things I remember the very most about childhood that have stuck with me through life.

[08:16] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Well, let's talk a little bit about you as a librarian and what librarians represent in this country. So, for decades, librarians with nurses, policemen, and veterans have been considered one of the most trusted professions in America. Everybody has a memory of their local library and the people who make them the beloved institutions that they are considered today. But in recent months, some of that has changed. It's almost like some alternate universe where suddenly libraries are perceived as a threat to the moral fabric of society, run by sinister cabals of librarians out of Washington, DC, who are imposing something on others. It seems like a very odd switch from just a few years ago when librarians were considered the most trustworthy professionals, and now there's a lot of aspersions being cast on the profession. So what are your thoughts on this development? And have you ever had to defend citizens rights to free and unfettered access to information?

[09:32] HONORE BRAY: That's a really interesting question, because I think that anyone right now that works in government, or who people feel are part of government, which libraries get thrown in there, end up in that place that you're talking about, where people are not feeling comfortable and feel like their freedoms are being taken away from them by the system or the government or whatever. And so you know Montana law very well, and you know that Montana library law basically removes libraries from government by putting the persons in charge as people who have been chosen by the community to run their library. And that that is a really important thing about Montana libraries is it is your friends who are running your library, and you should be able to go talk to them about what your issues are. It isn't the county commissioners that are running the library or the mayor, and they do not get to make the choices for the library. It is the library board. And I think that that is really unique about Montana and really important that in the 18 hundreds, there were people who were smart enough to realize education should not be controlled by the government. So I think for Montanans, that is really a great thing. Not all states have that same law. I also believe that teachers and librarians defend the rights of information for the public every single day. It can be a struggle. And in times when people are questioning what government is doing, it becomes more of a struggle. In my career, I have had a few times when people disagreed with something that was on our shelves as a book or a movie or an audiobook. And I have had to defend what myself or our colleagues chose to purchase for the library. And most often, I believe that it's out of fear that people decide that something needs to be removed from a library because they don't understand the concept of something or they don't. They have a fear that if you believe different than I do, then the whole world is going to fall apart. We all have to think the same way. And we know that for decades, that is, people have always thought their own way, and it will always turn back that way. But it's still very scary to people. I also think that it's people who are not strong in what they believe, that they're not strong enough to be able to stand up and say, this is what I believe. And so they want to go through the back door somehow and get everybody to believe the same thing because they might be made fun of or whatever for their beliefs. But libraries provide something for everybody, and people are able to find what fits them and what fits their family and not make the choices for all families. That I think that people need to understand that that's why libraries are so important, is there's something for everybody. We don't just choose things for one person or one type of person. I think that we're living in a very divided country right now, and we see many fears surfacing. And libraries are so important to the very core of our society, and we must all stand strong to believe that, because this, too, shall pass. And when it does, and we look back on it, we'll be much smarter than we were when we went into it. But it's always scary when those first few people come forward and start making challenges to things, because most often it's someone they challenge, someone who they know has never had to deal with this before, or who looks like they're meek and mild. And then once they make the challenge, they find out how strong librarians really are.

[14:35] ELIZABETH JONKEL: The stereotypical librarian with the bun and the glasses and the cardigan suddenly turns into an ardent champion. That's right.

[14:45] HONORE BRAY: And, you know, we've seen a lot of it right here in Montana, in the Flathead valley. So it's. Our colleagues from Flathead have really had to stand up for what they believe. And it's been tough. It's been tough on the entire community.

[15:05] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Well, this is a good segue to a quote I'm going to read from Hannah Arendt. Writing in 1963. She wrote, evil comes from a failure to think. It defies thought. For as soon as thought tries to engage itself with evil and examine the premises and principles from which it originates, it is frustrated because it finds nothing there. That is the banality of evil. So I'd like to turn that idea on its head and talk about the insidiousness of good. So I think that libraries are agents of good, but this happens often in hidden ways. Many people have no idea how much a library is adding to the value and character of their town. There are things that happen in a public library that are founded on principles of justice, equity, and the communal good. Those who work in libraries make a promise to do no wrong in aspirational ways, similar to those who are called to the church or other higher callings. So, thinking about that, how do you think you commit random acts of kindness for others through your job? And do you have any thoughts on how libraries are forces of good in the world?

[16:25] HONORE BRAY: Yeah, I think that in our profession, we all do random acts of kindness all day long. It's easy to spend your entire day doing very meaningful things for other people. At the time, you don't really think about it. It's just your job. But then there's always something that kind of makes you get the feeling of, oh, my gosh, I just really helped that person find something they really needed. People come to the library looking for information to make their lives better, to solve a problem, to pass their time for enjoyment. And librarians have the opportunity to help each one engage with materials that will improve their life experience. Because libraries see people, or librarians, and libraries see people from all walks of life, every social, economic status, that there is people who are having a great day or people who are having an awful day, it's important to make sure to go to work every day with an open mind. And I think that for me, that is the. It's the hardest thing, but the best thing for people who work in libraries to think about. Not everyone sees things the same, wants things the same, does things the same. And we have to be able to engage with each one of those personalities and not let it make your day bad. I just think about, you know, the smile on a person's face when someone walks through the door changes a person's life for that day. And if they're not met with kindness when they come in the door and they're met with somebody who's grumpy, it can wreck their entire day. So I really feel like we have. We have the ability to make a difference in people's lives every single day. And that's why libraries are beloved in communities. Because if you remember back when we did the hearing for the new library at the county, and there were over 200 people there, and all the people that got up and told the story about their library when they were kids, and the county commissioner is sitting in the front of the room crying, that's what makes me know libraries are important to people.

[19:10] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Well, and one of the things that's so remarkable in any modern library is to walk in and see all the children that are creating all those memories that they are going to carry with them for the next 20, 30, 50 years. So it builds on itself. Yeah.

[19:26] HONORE BRAY: Yeah, it does. It's so worth it. It just makes. I don't know, it makes your day to just walk around. My favorite thing in this building in the afternoons was to walk around and see people using the building as we imagined they would. And there was somebody in every nook and cranny doing something amazing. And it's just really cool. Where else do you get to do that for free? For free.

[19:55] ELIZABETH JONKEL: So let's take a step back then, because, I mean, one of the things that is important about what you accomplished for Missoula was the building of the new library. But if we step back a few years and we kind of think before, when we were in the old building, which was just across the street, but is as opposite to this new library as you could possibly be. You started at MPL, you were a new director, and you met a community that was very enthusiastic about the library and eagerly desirous of information, knowledge, recreation, programming. But it was such a challenge, because the city was growing and new people were moving here, and the types of people that were living here were different from what you saw in the past. And the biggest challenge for the library was how cramped and overextended and falling over itself. The old building was like, we wanted to be vibrant. We wanted to be responsive, but we couldn't because we were in a two story building that was built in 1974 and was built when there was a different vision than what the community currently needed. So you made a decision then to give Missoula the library it deserves. And I think you need to take credit for that decision. So can you talk a little bit about how you came to the conclusion that the city needed a new library?

[21:31] HONORE BRAY: Yeah. I started at the library in 2005, and there's just so much that adds up to a community needing a new space for learning and growing. And MPL had undergone a facelift to expand the children's department. We were just in the process of building Web Alley, and that was our computer.

[22:01] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Yes.

[22:02] HONORE BRAY: Webb Alley came about because as we worked at the reference desk, there were six, I think it was six, maybe eight computers. And people used to get in fist fights over the use of the computers. So we had to find a system, and Jim Semmelroth found a system that would help sign people up so that the librarians didn't have to break the fights up. And then we went from that many computers to 23 computers in Web Alley, and it was never enough. And so, you know, the library had undergone that, and then the community was growing quickly, as you said. But then 2007 came along, and we had a downturn in our economy. And as we know through history, whenever there's a recession or any kind of change in the economy, people quit buying the things that they do for recreation. So now they come to the library for books and movies and all those things that they were purchasing themselves because they had the money to do it. And so now we became more busy, and we. I just happened to be working one night when these two architects from Arizona came through the library, and it was a slower evening, and we got visiting, and they said, you should go see the library in Richmond, Canada. They've just done a redesign because they have the same problems you're having, and they could really help you look at things differently. So we put together a group of librarians and workers from the library and went to Canada and engaged for a day with the librarians in Richmond. Came home with lots of ideas, scary ideas to many people. And so we started a redesign of our own. And I had saved $400,000 that we could spend on a redesign. So we got self check stations. I mean, what an idea. Some of the people were angry because they knew we were going to let staff go because we bought self checks. That was a way to get rid of people.

[24:29] ELIZABETH JONKEL: It was a robot revolution.

[24:30] HONORE BRAY: It was. And it was either that comment I got or the other comment was from the parents of the young children who would say, oh, my gosh, I am so thankful for this. I check 30 items out at a time, and I can just feel people breathing down my backs when they're behind me because it's taking so long for my items get checked out. So thank you for doing this so we can wait on ourselves. But the purpose of it was it gave the public more privacy to what they read, watch, do. And so that's why we went with self checks. We were moving to a patron centered service rather than a staff centered service. After we did the self checks that we had to remodel what we were doing to check things in, because people use items used to sit back in office behind check in, and they could sit there sometimes for two weeks at a time. Someone would want the item, and you would have to go back and search the stacks on the floor or the book stacks that were filled with items, and it would take you forever to find them for the person. So we went from that to items being checked in and back out on the floor within four to 6 hours, which was amazing. So it was much better service for the public. And the only thing that we never could do was we needed more seating. And there was no place, nowhere to add more seating because we were out of space in the buildings. So we had 38 seats for the adult public to sit in if they wanted to use materials in the library, which then, you know, gave the library trustees a pretty strong message that a new building was probably on the horizon. And I think the frosting on the cake was when we would come to work in the morning and the ceiling would be wet because there was a pinhole in the pipes, and it was always over the computer lab. It's a wonder we didn't short the whole system out. But the envelope of the building that was built in 1974 was still good, but all of the mechanical issues were bad, and our h vac system went bad, and we had to buy parts for the new air handlers, and each of them were $10,000. So we were throwing because they had to be built on site or they had to be built by somebody to bring on site because they no longer existed. So the trustees decided they were throwing good money at an old building, and it just really wasn't worth doing. So we pursued building a new library.

[27:34] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Well, and for this next question I'm going to ask you, maybe you could include in your response your trip to Sweden, because that was really instrumental in how you were able to construct a vision for what you saw as a new, modern library. But even before you went to Sweden, I think you already had a really distinct vision about what you'd like to see be built for the people of Missoula. And now that we're here in this new library in downtown Missoula, it is considered a new model for librarianship due to the partnerships that you created with organizations in the city, the integration of the concept of the community center to the heart of what was going to define this space, and some of the museum concepts that you took a look at and then adopted and brought into that library model. So let's talk about what this vision was, because it is a new way of looking at librarianship in North America. And do you think that we achieved the dream that you had all those years ago?

[28:55] HONORE BRAY: Well, I'll go back ways, because when I was teaching, I would take my high school students to a lot of science museums, and they were always excited. And then they'd find a new concept that they liked, and we'd leave and then get home and get back to school, and then you would want them to start doing research on that, and their minds were off on something else. And I used to always think, oh, why can't they have materials to check out so the kids can go home excited and continue learning right then. And then you could send them back like you do in a public library. It would make so much sense. And then I started doing a lot of research about libraries in Denmark and Sweden when I was in library school. And they had things called cultural houses, which were very much similar to the idea that you would go find what you want, check materials out, learn more about it, send them back. So when we started thinking about a new library, we were trying to talk about, so how are we going to pay for this? What? You know, how do we get the foundation involved? What do we do? And so Carl and I were visiting, and we decided we would go. Carl Olson was the foundation director. We decided we would start doing interviews with nonprofits in town and see if there was anybody else that would like to come into a building with us that maybe could bring some money. Well, we soon found out that there were a lot of people wanted to come into a building with us, but nobody had any money to bring. So one day I decided, well, we need to look for those individuals who have somewhat the same kind of service that we provide so that we kind of can help each other out instead of having way too many things that are different in a building. And at the same time, the foundation was asking me, well, why do you want to do this? What would it accomplish? What's the purpose? And so I had done some research on children's libraries, and we knew at the time, the Pew organization had done a big study on what kids needed going to kindergarten. And 40% of the children that were entering school at that time were not kindergarten ready. And what they were missing was the hands on life experiences. And so I just had this moment of, well, that's who we need to be looking at. And so we went back to those organizations that we had interviewed and looked at them, and families first and spectrum were two of those organizations, organizations who really fit what we needed to make our young children's program at the library a full force, integrate into school kind of program. Because what we were missing was the hands on. And they brought the hands on experiences to the kids. At the time when we were doing interviews, MCAT, Joel Baird, manager, said, boy, if you build a new library, I want to be there, because I want my organization to be in the face of people all the time, and we just are not there. And so we knew Joel wanted to be part of that. And having that digital education piece was very important also. So that's how we decided on the partnerships that we were going to have in the building. And then other things just came along, like, oh, two organizations. Their leadership changed, and their old leadership brought new ideas to the project. So that's where the NIH grant and the climbing structure came from. The soft play area for kids, little people and their caregivers, and the water table room. So as the community got involved in the building of the building, the planning of the building, that's when all of the really exciting things came to life and the money was found to do those things. As you know, I was told many times, I couldn't do this because you couldn't mix public money and private money together. And I just kept saying, I'll find a way to do it, and kept pushing until Andrew Charney at the county came forward and said, I think I might have an idea for you. And the county attorney's office was on board, and we found a way to be able to mix money that the public had given us to build the building with private money so we could bring our partners in. So it was a work of many, many hands on, lots of people, and you were right in the middle of it. So you know how it happened. And if I had it to do over again, I'd do it again, because it was just so important. It was an important piece of work to be done.

[35:01] ELIZABETH JONKEL: So when you think about your trip to Sweden, where you saw the culture houses, do you see a lot of similarities, then with what we have here in Missoula?

[35:11] HONORE BRAY: Absolutely. So, in Sweden and Denmark and Finland, they bring things that a community needs together and put it in with a library. So, in some of the organizations, there were different kinds of libraries, like school libraries, public libraries, university libraries. Some were other things, like centers for teens. So it very much was the foundation of how we could build what we had. The only difference was their government pays for all of it, so they can do whatever they want. I mean, it's very doable for them, right?

[35:53] ELIZABETH JONKEL: Not so much here.

[35:54] HONORE BRAY: Yeah, it's harder here.

[35:56] ELIZABETH JONKEL: So I'm gonna. I think we're gonna close up. I'm just gonna ask you two final questions. So, you've recently retired, and I know it's only been a few short months, but I don't think anybody in Missoula or here at the library appreciates the impact that losing Honore bray means. I. When you think of your legacy, can you, like, how do you want to be remembered by the staff of Missoula Public Library? Like, I know staff is very important to you.

[36:24] HONORE BRAY: I hope that the staff remember me for the push I gave everyone to strive for the best they could be at the library, to put themselves and their families first, because if you're not happy at home, you're not happy at work, and to always come forth and ask what they want before they decide they can't have it, because we did everything we could to try to make a good work home life for people. And I pushed people to do their very best to get the best education they could. And even if that meant us losing them, some of our favorite workers moved on to other libraries because we gave them the push to get their degree and do something farther for themselves. And I think that's what a leader does, is encourage others.

[37:22] ELIZABETH JONKEL: We've planted seeds all across the state of Montana with our staff that we trained up and educated, sent off. Well, I'll ask one last question. So, do you have a funny or a heartwarming tale of serving someone that you think sums up what it's meant to you about being an educator and a librarian in Montana.

[37:45] HONORE BRAY: You know, I don't. I just feel like my life has been touched by so many people and one story isn't possible. I've been so lucky to have three professional jobs during my 46 year career, and I am so thankful I have had all the richness in my life from the people that I've worked with, and there's not one thing that I love over another. They've all been really great experiences.

[38:21] ELIZABETH JONKEL: All right, well, thank you for sharing your memories about how we got where we are today in Missoula with this fabulous library in the downtown.

[38:32] HONORE BRAY: Thank you.