How Teaching has Changed Over Time

00:03 All right. Hi, I'm Rachel Katcoff I'm here with Eileen Ball. It's currently November 29, 2022. I am in Amherst, Massachusetts, and going to get started. So I just remember you telling me about your childhood and what it was like growing up, and I don't know, I just remember hearing about it, and I'd like to know more about it. You could tell me.

00:31 I think what it might have looked like from, or the experience may have been a little bit like I was just a little bit like that. I don't know. There was a quality that was a little like Edward scissorhands, you know, in terms of the 1950s. And I think we even did have a house that was pinken on our block. And, you know, I don't know if anyone ever feels like a part of all of that, but there's this illusion that everyone is a part of it, except for.

01:09 What do you mean by, what do you mean by it? Do you mean, like, community in general or.

01:13 Yeah, you know, it's. And kind of, I think an illusion of what? Like, like life is to be a little bit like leave it to Beaver or one of these cute little television shows, but maybe one's experience isn't really quite that. And so it's a lot for me when I think about it, it makes me feel more like an observer of it because it didn't quite click, you know, the way it was, the way it seemed to for everybody else. But I think that everybody might have had that sense that it wasn't quite, you know, the dominant story or whatever wasn't quite fitting anybody. But, you know.

02:10 Could you maybe.

02:12 Huh?

02:13 Sorry. Could you maybe elaborate more on that? Do you think there was a specific reason why you never really felt like.

02:18 You were part of a community or at that time? Well, you know, I always had really close friends. That's always really important to me. I think that I probably overly identified as an outsider growing up. In part, I grew up in a fairly, in one part of my life, you know, maybe up till 10th grade, a very homogenous suburban neighborhood, pretty Jewish. And I was more of a, I'm just looking for a tissue or something. I'm just going to do this and grab something. You know, I just, I just wonder if anyone felt like they were a part of it. I don't really know if that, you know, if everybody sort of feels like they're not quite a part of it, but, but there's a lot about, you know, feeling more like an observer of, of things kind of doing my thing, but.

03:50 Yeah, yeah, no, I think I understand that. I don't know. How did you feel about that when you were growing up? Like, did you. I don't know. Did you wish that you could kind of incorporate your way in or was it kind of something you gave up on? Yeah, just how did you feel about it?

04:10 The most important thing to me were my best friends, you know, the friends that I was in close with. Not sure how much attention I paid to anyone. Anything else, you know, in terms of school or neighborhood? I think, you know, when I was younger, playing on the street, you know, we had, like, this little, you know, three houses, maybe, of kids that were all around the same age. And we played hard, you know, stickball and devils and angels and giant steps, you know, all this stuff that I don't even know if people know what it is anymore, but I was actually.

04:48 Gonna ask what those were.

04:50 Yeah, they're fun little non, almost non competitive games, you know, like. And I kind of feel like being. Just being outside and playing hard was. It was a hoot for me. It was great. And I think school was certainly dull at best, you know, but nothing to question because, you know, it's the fifties. You don't really question things. You just kind. At least I did just kind of go along to get along and, you know, and I did that well enough to not get targeted or bullied or, you know, any of that stuff. But I think my best times certainly were on the street, at home, you know, being. I think. I think I probably had a lot of energy for a little girl. Maybe all little girls don't. And I did. And I was lucky because I lived in a little corner where it was all girls and we all had a lot of energy and we all played hard, you know, games, stickball. I don't know if you know what that is, but no, no, we could play in the street and just pull over when cards came by, you know, it wasn't like, wasn't like, heavily trafficked in that way and was. That was great fun for me. You know, I don't remember winters all that much, but I do think that it was, you know, a big part of growing up was, you know, the kids in the hood, you know.

06:37 Um. Yeah, that's great. I feel like. I don't know, I sometimes feel like it's not really about how many people, you know, it's, you know, just having a good. I don't know, just good quality friends. Even if it's not a lot of people. Like, I feel like that's what counts, especially in a big community. Um, I feel like. Does it make you a little bit sad that it seems like a lot of people, especially little kids now, that technology is an everyday thing, people don't really spend as much time outdoors anymore like you used to. Does that make you sad at all or anything like that?

07:11 I do worry a little bit about. I mean, I really think that we all need to improve in our ability to have empathy and to listen well and to be kind. And I do think that authentic interactions where someone, you know, gently calls you out on your shit, that kind of thing, it's really important. Or do you grow? I worry about kids. When I was teaching back in the day, back in the day, I mean, I spent so much time doing, like, class meetings and, you know, like, probably ad nauseam having kids, like, you know, talk about what went wrong, what was okay, how they were feeling, you know, those things. I don't think people can do that anymore. I think in public school settings, it's. I think there's a frantic quality to achieve in a very particular way on testing. And I think some of the most important things now more than ever, are about listening and understanding one another. I do worry about whether or not that's being focused on enough. I feel like it's so critical, so important, it's painful that it might not be happening. Maybe it is, but from what I can tell, it's not a lot of time for it.

08:54 Yeah, that's interesting. I've definitely never heard that point before. I mean, especially, at least when it specifically has to do with schools. So would you say that when you were still teaching, was there more emphasis on connecting with students and mental health rather than, you know, scores and performance and everything like that?

09:16 No. I always worked with kids that struggled. So I sort of had. I think I probably had more freedom in my classroom than a traditional classroom teacher. I also taught through the seventies. You know, it was kind of a different world then, you know, where I. It really was a lot about trying to understand difference. And maybe it's like that now. From what I can tell students that are going into teaching now, it doesn't feel like there's a lot. I mean, other than kindergarten. I mean, I think kindergarten is so important, but I don't think it goes a lot beyond that in terms of having some time to help kids figure out the emotional terrain, you know, how to help each other and all of that. And that it does sad me some, you know, but I'm not sure. Oh, it's going to restart my computer. 1 second. Let me make it not. Maybe I could make it. I think I made it stop. It was updating and I just said, okay, we're going to restart your computer in 57 minutes, 57 seconds anyway. So I think that. I think teaching is a different world. I'm not sure I would choose to be a teacher if I was a young person going in today. I think it would feel like an impossible situation with very little payoff. But I loved it so much. You know, it was a different world. I mean, there were just different. There was different emphasis, you know, I mean, there was this, you know, the open classroom was a key thing, and class meetings and, you know, we just put a lot of time into helping people figure the day to day stuff out and that. I like that a lot. I mean, I also like teaching process and helping people to learn new things, but it's all important, right? So, anyway.

11:28 Oh, yeah. And I was just going to ask, I remember you saying that you felt like you had a lot of more freedom working with chancellor, struggling. Can you elaborate more on what those freedoms were?

11:39 I think that if my students didn't, like, blow up the school, that I was considered phenomenal teacher. You know, as long as, you know, people didn't have to see them and deal with them because I had kids that they were probably among the most talented kids in the school. They were furious. They had a right to be furious. And, and they just didn't take it from anybody, you know, they. For whatever reasons. I mean, there was also a lot of pain in there for a lot of them, but I also think enormous amount of talent, you know, and strength in there. But for me, you know, I, like, walked on water because my. In my, you know, it felt like I really got a, like, free reign because my kids were not killing other kids, beating them up, you know, doing all that stuff. They were, they had a nice. We created a reasonable classroom community in ithemenous worked pretty well, but those were very different times. I don't think it's like that anymore. I don't know, but, I mean, I think those kids lose a lot, too. They don't, they don't get the exposure to the kind of thinking and academics that traditional classrooms get. So it's, you know, it's kind of a bust that way.

13:10 Okay, could you elaborate on that? When you say, you know, thinking that exists in a traditional classroom, what exactly do you mean by that?

13:21 It's not generally the kind of accountability, you know, that you would have now, I'm not all hot on the kind of accountability there is now in schools. I think it's a lot of bullshit, a lot of memorization, a lot of regurgitating, not necessarily creative thinking at all, you know, and so I don't really put a lot of weight on it, but that doesn't mean that the system doesn't put a lot of weight on it. It doesn't mean that decisions are made about kids based on that stuff. So, you know, I think the kids in my classroom probably didn't have to perform in those certain kinds of way, but in the set at the same time, it's probably limited there choices in the world. I mean, I think probably a lot of my kids wound up in trouble and, you know, not all of them. It's really. It's so economically dependent working in inner city, and the kids struggle that are struggling and, you know, kids with privilege have an easier time.

14:29 Yeah. And out of curiosity, have you ever gotten to check in on how the kids you taught were doing currently?

14:36 Sometimes I do. Like, I have some of the kids on my Facebook page are my third graders, and they are older than you. They're, like, out in the world in different ways. Some of them, I can see them sometimes. You know, there's a little contact. And it really. I think it just. It just so depended on really what their backgrounds were. I mean, I think kids that get a lift up get a. They're in a good school system. They have parents that have enough attention to support their success. Kids seem to manage and kids that are on their own. It's a lot about luck, what falls in their way. It's completely not in that way. I mean, the same talent is in both places, but it's really the luck of the draw, Rachel. I think it's so the luck of the draw, you know, and, you know, and I was lucky, and some of them were, and some of them not. You know, I've taught in different situations, you know, where I've had kids that have been both. It's hard to fail in some situations, and it's hard to succeed in other situations, you know, if you're just a.

15:59 Kid, um, and going off of that, have you ever. I don't know, have you ever had a student in your class and, you know, no matter what they do, they just keep failing? And did you feel any kind of guilt towards that?

16:13 When I look back at my teaching, did I make mistakes in terms of kids? Oh, yeah. I mean, I definitely. You know, I, you know, I feel horrible about, you know, not understanding things. I mean, I started teaching when I was, like, 21. I was working with kids that were 13. You know, I wasn't all that much older than, you know, like, troubled boys that were 13. And I'm like this, you know, goofy little hippie 21 year old person, you know, doing the best I could. But, yeah, I wish I was smarter. I wish I knew more. I wish I did better. I wish they had a better chance. I wish I was loaded, because I think pumping money into the situation wouldn't hurt in some ways, so. And, you know, perpetuated the situation in terms of trying to manage things that were hard, you know, not knowing how to do some of it. And, yeah, you know, you have regrets at the same time. I really was easy for. I don't think I ever worked with a kid I didn't like. I mean, I really cannot think of. I cannot think of getting to know any child that I ever worked with that I didn't really care about. I mean, it's really hard to not like someone when you really get to know them, especially a kid child. And so were that it might have meant something somewhere along the line because I had that elasticity, you know, to sort of be there. I mean, I think I really was there trying to do the best I could. You know, teaching's a weird thing. I mean, when do you have 24 little bodies? I mean, think about babysitting and then take 24 of them all day. You know, it's. It's the most insane, you know, unless everybody's, like, socialized to kind of ever, you know, walk in little rows or whatever. Whatever that's about.

18:43 Yeah. Also, I want to go back on what you were saying about, you know, never disliking any kid that you've ever worked with. I feel that takes a lot of strength, because for me, if I. And I realize this is, like, a great thing to say, but I feel like if I consistently worked with someone who would, you know, lash out at me. Granted, I don't know if any of your students ever did this, but if I worked with someone who consistently lashed out at me, even though I'm putting in the effort and in my mind and trying as hard as I can, it can be hard to not feel frustrated and not feel like, why is this working out? And not have, like, a sense of dislike, even if I don't want to have that.

19:26 Yeah, but, you know, so complicated when you're in that. I mean, I think if you're really in there with that individual I'm not sure, Rachel. I don't think. I think it would be puzzling, you know? And you would just keep trying to figure out what. What needed to happen, you know, like, if a kid was really struggling because they were having a hard time learning or they're frustrated, like, that's a whole one story, you know, and then what? Do they need to learn that? Or do you need to take a break from that? And when it's a kid, I think you would have a different experience if you were. Unless someone was watching you and demanding something creepy from you. But if it was just you and this kid, I think it would become kind of an intriguing question of, like, what's really going on here? What do they need? Is there anything I can offer? You know, is it. I mean, sometimes kids, you know, if they have real problems, like, different neurological organization, yada, yada, yada, you know, then that's one road you take. But most, a lot of the time, it's just these kids just trying to manage these sometimes creepy adults in their life, you know, that are hurting them time after time, you know? I just think you would. I don't think that you would get. I don't think it would be about whether or not you like the kid. I think you. You know, you can. I had good support always. I always had some. Someone smarter than me around to talk to about what to do. So I think that's key, you know, that it's not just you in this situation where you're going down, you're going down, you got this kid that's ready to kill you, and you. It's not like that. I mean, there's always someone you can talk to that. Or at least for me, there was that knew more than I did and could help me try something new, think something new. They're just kids, you know? Right. All they want is safety, access, a little love, you know, a little interest, a little beauty, you know, a little fun.

22:00 Yeah. And I feel like that's such a difficult job in general, and so much goes into it. Was there ever a time where you would talk to a parent and they would kind of use you as a scapegoat for their child's behavior if they were someone who was struggling?

22:17 You mean get pissed off at me because.

22:20 Right. Like, oh, like, why aren't you doing this? Like, why haven't, you know, why hasn't this issue been solved yet?

22:31 It's an interesting question. You know, parents can start off like that, but generally, you kind of wind up all really on the same side, you know, I mean, I didn't have. I mean, I had difficult parents, but they have similar struggles to their children a lot of time, you know, and they're overwhelmed, you know? And as I got older, they're just so young, and they're just doing the best they can. And I didn't really. I mean, I think I was pretty lucky in terms of, I guess, winning people over because I like their kids. I mean, kids are really smart, you know, and they're all different, and they're not all the kind of smart that the school, you know, honors. But they're either misunderstood or they excel. You know, it's like. I don't think I'm bullshitting, Rachel. I think I'm saying it like, I think that's really. I don't know. It's part of me that wants to check out. Am I telling the truth? I think I am. I mean, I don't think I'm exaggerating. You know, I. But I did have that luxury of. I had smaller class sizes. I knew my students very well. A lot of times I had them for two or three years. You know how those little classes are. I don't know. Did you have them in your basement? What kind of school did you go to? Public school?

24:27 Yeah, I just went to a public school.

24:29 Yeah. Did they have classrooms, like, sort of off to the side where you kind of didn't really know what was going on, but you kind of thought they came in those little school buses and.

24:41 You know, I think there was, it's, like, a little bit hazy, but, yeah.

24:47 It'S usually so separate and out there, you know, in terms of how people take that all in and make sense of it. But the truth is, you know, some kids get a break, some kids don't. You know, that's how kind of how I see it today.

25:10 I still think that going off that. Has there ever been a case where you've kind of seen a child who obviously they have the potential and they're smart, but they're misunderstood. They haven't been given the, I don't know, just the opportunities to actually excel and be able to apply that knowledge, and you gave them the proper care and they ended up succeeding. Has that ever happened?

25:36 I think some of the kids I worked with did better, you know, in a classroom setting with me maybe, than they did the prior year. It's kind of hard to look down the road because a lot of the time, I mean, I work with college students, too. And, you know, my last cluster of kids. Great. You know, really well, I've got some folks out in the field now that were working with me to be teachers, and they are like, there's this one person I kind of look at sometimes on Facebook, and she's, like, one of the best. She's a fabulous kindergarten teacher. I'm like, so I feel so good about how she's doing, you know, and. And, you know, you lose track of kids. I wonder about kids, but I really think that so much of whether or not kids are okay has to do with, you know, where they get born, who they get born, who births them, what the situations are that they grow up in. I don't really know that it's so much about kids because they're all talented. You know, some people do the book learning really well. Other kids aren't amazingly creative and could probably solve complex problems and all of that if given the chance. I think some of the best leaders are squelched and thrown in prison. You know, can you say it's really, that's really what, what I think happens, you know, put a strong, angry boy into the mix and, you know, it could be, like, a person that could figure out how to solve global warming, or they could be the person that, you know, gets locked up and shut away because they shout down the wrong person. You know, it's just not particularly fair. The public school system isn't particularly fair.

27:48 And I remember you saying that you have had some difficult experiences with parents. Has that ever happened where a parent has come in and they've been difficult and you, you know, you kind of get a sense from that, that a child is in a bad environment. It's not exactly their fault that they lash out or have poor behavior or anything like that.

28:10 You. It could be a lot of anxiety in families and a lot of stress. And generally, if one person is really struggling in a family, generally a lot of people are struggling in the family. And maybe there's, like, one of the kids is really acting out, but another kid could be just in as much pain and struggling where the parent could be. And, you know, there's no books on how to be a great parent. And, you know, you get a kid that has a lot of energy and it doesn't work in the school system, and it's challenging, and I think the pressure just grows and grows. Or can, you know, unless. Unless you have lots of choices, you know, and you could, like, put your kid in a more gentle environment, you know, get him out of a competitive scene, you know? Yeah. Have I seen bad situations where kids are being abused or things are happening that shouldn't be happening. Yeah, lots of times, you know, but it's always. It's usually. It's complicated. You know? There's usually just not one evildoer, you know, in it. It's not like bad parenting. It's complex, horrible situations that are really hard to untangle. You know? The more you know about it, the more complicated it gets to be. I think so. Everybody does the best. I do think everybody does the best they can. Unless, you know, you get in, you know, when you start to get into drugs and all that stuff, it's. It makes it messier, makes it a mess, you know? But if people are sober, you know, and not using and all of that, poverty's tough, you know, it's so stressful. This isn't very lighthearted. I know, right.

30:24 It's. I mean, that's also definitely accurate, but it's kind of impossible to really narrow down any child's behavior to one specific source, whether it's the parents, their environment, just anything like that, or even, like, environment is a really general term. There's so much that goes into an environment, so I don't know. It definitely is heavy to talk about, because if there's so much that goes into it, then how do we even go about fixing it? Like, what should we be focusing on? Because it never really feels like it's enough. Right.

30:57 Yeah, that's true. It's like you just, you know, it's true. It's like you could put all hands on deck. I mean, it's unfortunate that education isn't a priority, you know, a real. I mean, a deep seated commitment by our culture. It's just not. And I think in some cultures, maybe it is a little more. I don't really know that much about that. Wish I knew more. I don't. But it feels like in our culture, you know, we. I mean, I think everybody thinks they could teach because they went to school. Everybody thinks it's, like a great gig because you have June, July, and August off. I mean, I just don't think people really think about what is involved in the day of a teacher. And if they did, boy, would we pump resources in there. All kinds of resources, really. Not just teaching, not just education, but tons of mental health support, you know, tons of physical, you know, and, you know, support for, like, physical and everything kind of covered, but we just. Just don't care enough now. I mean, preschool teachers, that's the most important thing, right? They're the most underpaid. I mean, you can't make a living as a preschool teacher, I don't think. You know, these days, it's like, what, $25,000, you know, to be a head teacher. I mean, come the. Come on, really? You know? So, I mean, I just. It's such. It's not a priority, you know? And for me, at this stage of my life, I think, like, the best I can think about to kind of not think about this stuff too much, which is embarrassing to admit, but. Or to pick up an individual kid here and there and throw myself into that the best I can, but really maybe volunteer, you know, as an extra set of hands or something. But it's just. Just in this country, it's just. I just wish more people realized that this is, like, the biggest issue that we face right now is equity and education, helping kids be curious about the world. I mean, if they're hungry, of course, you know, you. There's just so many basic things that aren't in place for people to care and to get curious and to get interested and engaged without, you know, beating them on the head, you know, you're gonna fail this if you don't do this. Such bullshit. Just not how it. Just not how it works, you know?

33:50 Yeah, I completely agree with that. So if education isn't a priority in our society right now, what do you.

33:56 What do you think is in this society right now?

34:00 I mean, if education is, you know.

34:02 Power and money, I think is what people that are in power really want as an individual. I don't know. I could aim towards doing everything I could to make the world a little bit more. Just. What does that mean for me? I don't know. Give a lot of money as I have, as much money as I have to the places. I mean, that's what it seems to be about, really. It's throwing money into places which I wish I had more of, you know? But just to throw money at the people that have the courage to do good, to do right, to be just. To be honest. To be honest. I mean, come on, Rachel, they could just. People just be honest. That would be a great start. Like, just be direct, be honest, be clear, you know?

34:58 But what do you mean by being honest? Like, what do you think is the main thing that people aren't honest about?

35:09 I think. I don't know. I think I have the sense, and I might not be right, but I feel like that there are people that have just white men, maybe, who have been in positions of power, government for a really long time that don't really have a sense of anything other than themselves. They haven't been able to, for whatever reasons, develop a sense of reciprocity or understanding other. It's all about just kind of getting to the top step on someone's throat. I mean, we always like to talk about the Nazis horrible. All of that was, but, you know, there's all these different variations on pretty horrible things at different levels that we do. And it's, you know, because we're not cutting people open and doing, you know, things that look that obvious. We pretend that they're not harmful, but I think. Think it's really dangerous, what. What isn't happening, you know, I mean, I know there's great little communities here and there. I think Northampton is one of those places. It's pretty special in that people really try hard, you know, to help other folks. But I think there's a lot of people that are completely blind and stupid around money and what's important in the world and making it and being. And doing the right thing is maybe not. I don't know. It doesn't always look to me like it's in the picture, you know, that people don't struggle enough about what is right and what is good and what is just. I feel like they just follow some path and in the process step on people and hurt people and climb to get what they want, which is, you know, I get it. But at the same time, there's. You know, there's. There's not a lot of scarcity in this country, and we could do better. Could do a lot better. People shouldn't be hungry in this country. I mean, they shouldn't be hungry anywhere. But it's ridiculous. There are kids starving here. It's crazy, right? There's a little kid hungry. Come on. You know, it's crazy.

37:59 And that's definitely a problem that I hear about a lot. You know, I mean, it's. I'm sure it's been a problem for years and years, but I remember when I was little, there were. I mean, there still are plenty of kids who can't afford, like, school lunches every day, and they're going hungry, and it's. It's not that there aren't those resources.

38:22 Right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I would. I would love to see much more social programming in this country. I would like to see things move much more, you know, in a direction where a lot more federal funds move towards at least some level of comfort, you know? I don't mean not even comfort, but just, you know, take away some of the pain of what's going on in the world, you know? I think that could happen. Healthcare, food, housing, start there, you know?

39:05 Right. And when it comes to being power, it's. I don't know, it's difficult because people in power, they can say whatever they want. They can claim that they are helping people. But at the end of the day, I think power really binds you to, I don't know, all the bad that you're doing and all the bad that you have done to get into the position that you are in. And I think while they're in positions of power, they forget the people that they're supposed to be helping.

39:36 Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it's complicated. Who knows what? Like, I mean, would you want to be the president? I mean, like, who wants to be the president of a country? I mean, I mean, like, you know, could you be altruistic and want that? Or do you have to be an egomaniac to want that? You know what I mean? It's like, it's really hard for me to understand it, but I do think that there are people that work towards good. They, you know, I don't know. I think shoving resources in their direction is probably the best I could do.

40:20 Right. But then it's difficult because, you know, that's obviously a lot more easier said than done. And, you know, obviously, I would never want to be the print, not that I could, but I would never want to be the president of the United States.

40:33 Right.

40:33 Because I'm sure that when you're in, you know, those kinds of very high positions of power, I'm sure there are stuff that you wanted that you would like to do that you just can't. Like, I would like to say, you know, that I'd like to, I don't know, immediately put millions into education and making sure kids don't go hungry. But then I'm not necessarily the one controlling that. And I'm. And there's also, if I'm in a position of power, there's dozens and dozens of other people in position of power that have conflicting interests. So it's difficult.

41:13 Right. It's hard to get any. It seems harder and harder to get anything done, but maybe it's not harder and harder. Maybe it's always. It's always been this hard. I don't know. Yeah.

41:25 Right. It's happy to think about. It's not great.

41:28 It's hard to think about, for sure. You know, every now and then you get a little window of something or, I don't know, music, art, maybe that could save us.

41:41 Yeah, that's, like, definitely a very, like, ideal world, but I'd love to think that that's the case. And then, out of curiosity, how did you originally decide that you want to do teaching as a career?

41:56 You know, I'm not sure how I decided that. I kind of wonder if. Well, I think I've fair. I can be fairly relational. I mean, I really like kids, but I'm not sure I. I'm not sure I saw a lot of choices. I'm not sure if I realized that there were all these kinds of things you could do, like be an engineer or be an architect or be a doctor or be a therapist or be a researcher. I think if I. I have no clue, if I saw all of that, what I would have chosen, I think I really felt that I had two choices. I could be a nurse. I could be a teacher. That's really what I think. Given what I. You know, I grew up in Rhode island, part of Rhode island, and I don't. Didn't see a lot of other things. And I was kind of told that, you know, in terms of the timing and I think the vision of the people I was, you know, with. And my folks weren't all that, you know. You know, they didn't have big visions that way. I don't think they thought about a lot more, you know, a lot of big ideas about what you could do. So I don't really know what I would have chosen to do. I mean, I could have been a good motorcycle mechanic also. I kind of like that stuff. But at the time, I think I felt I had two choices, and I wasn't really into doing the whole blood thing, you know?

43:34 Yeah, you definitely have a point with that, you know? Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that, either. I don't know. How do you feel about that? Do you think that was. Do you regret that, in a sense? Do you feel like it was because of the time period that you grew up in, how women were viewed, that you only really saw those two careers as an option?

43:52 Do I regret it? I think I have regrets about my teaching. You know, I learned a lot all the time, you know, as much about myself as about anything else, and. And, I mean, I could keep learning this like it's an endless. It's endless. You know, it's like, you know, you. You're such a jerk all the time, right? I mean, all you can do is your best, and then it's like, oh, shit, you know, God, why didn't I see that? Or, why didn't I see that? You know, so it's really interesting. I mean, human dynamics really do I, that really holds my interest in human interactions generally, really hold my interest. So I don't really have regrets about that. I do imagine I probably wouldn't have done this if I knew then what I know now, but I don't know what I would have done. Maybe I would have built things or done something where, you know, you could quite kind of do the complicated relationship stuff in your life. And then just when you went to work, you just kind of put peg a into peg b, created something useful and, you know.

45:16 Yeah. And just go back to what I asked earlier. I, you know, you only saw the two careers as an option. Do you think that was because of how women are viewed when you were growing up?

45:27 Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there were, you know, in my world, I mean. I mean, there weren't. There wasn't a mom of anybody that I knew that did anything. They were either home or, like, my mom, she had a knitting store, you know, with her friend. And, I mean, I didn't even know teachers or social workers. I mean, people just, you know, the women, they didn't do anything. And then, you know, the guys, what did they do? I mean, they were truck drivers or my dad, you know, was sort of a, you know, we went to work in New York City, you know, I mean, people just. It was within a very professional world. What about you? What is your experience, like, in your community, your neighborhood? Like, did you. Did your parents friends, like, have, you know, my friends now, they're doctors. They're the researchers, they're writers. You know, their kids are doctors and all this. It's not the world I grew up in, you know?

46:48 What do you mean by that? Do you mean, what are my friends parents doing? Or what are my parents?

46:53 Yeah. When you grew up, what's around you, what did you see growing up in terms of what women were choosing to do or not choosing to do or.

47:08 Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I. I mean, I'm growing up in a very progressive time period, so beyond when I was, you know, maybe like seven under. I mean, I remember when I was really little, a lot of people just wanted to, like, stay at home or, like, I don't know, like, very, like, idealistic careers, like being a singer, being an actress, stuff like that. And then once, like, things got more realistic. I don't know, everybody just around me has a variety of interests. Like, I have friends, female friends who are engineers or want to be engineers, want to be. Want to be teachers, want to be lawyers. There's. I don't know. Yeah. I think it's just because I grew up in, or am currently growing up in such a progressive time period where that isn't really a thing for me. I never really felt restricted when I came to what I could pick, and I don't thank anybody around me that either. And I feel very fortunate about that.

48:34 And you're almost done. You're almost out, right?

48:38 Yeah. In. Well, in May. It's terrifying.

48:44 I'm sure it's terrifying. Yeah. It's like, you think you. What do you think you'll have. What are you thinking about for after.

48:53 The original plan was to go to grad school right after I graduate from here, but things that.

49:00 I think a lot of people do that in psychology. Right, right.

49:03 Just because it's such a popular major and, you know, I. Not that you need a graduate degree in psychology to succeed, but I feel like it definitely helps. It definitely helps you stand out and. But when I was looking for, like, when I was looking to gather all the materials that I have to submit an application, it didn't really work out, and I kind of figured I was already in the fence about taking a year off or not anyways, so I took that as a sign. And I'm just going to take a year off and, you know, study for the GRE and really, because I feel like I'm already so busy and applying to grad school on top of that, it's a lot.

49:48 Yeah.

49:48 So I want to take a year where I don't worry about school. I'm only worrying about applying to grad school and also looking for a job. That's the main thing.

50:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

50:05 Because the thing that worries me is, you know, I'm a psychology and public health major, but I've never even worked. I've never really, really even worked in the psychology field, at least. Yeah, not really. So it's something that I want to, you know, have hands on experience in to be like, is this even something that I want to do?

50:30 Right. And you've already invested a lot of time in it. Yeah.

50:36 Yeah. I think that's my worst fear, where, you know, I actually do end up working in psychology. And I go, this isn't really. I don't know. I think I built it up in my head a little bit too much. I think that's what I'm really scared of.

50:51 Yeah. Yeah.

50:53 Hopefully, who knows? Like, maybe I'll start working and I won't even, like, that'll just be fine. I won't even need a graduate degree maybe, because also graduate school is really expensive.

51:05 It can be. But in certain areas, yeah, it can be expensive, that's for sure.

51:12 I mean, I'm sure that, you know, there are programs where they can pay you to be a student or you can take it for really cheap, but that's not really something I want to depend on, you know, if that doesn't turn out to be the case.

51:25 Yeah. Yeah.

51:27 But it's, um. I don't know. I think it's scary because.

51:32 Very scary.

51:33 College is. I don't know. I mean, obviously, I'm a college student right now, so it's my entire. It feels like my entire life. It feels like, I don't know, once I'm out of. Once I'm out of here, that's a big part of my identity that's gone.

51:51 Yeah. Yeah.

51:53 And I'm curious, did you ever feel.

51:55 That community also, right. It's. Community is all right there, and soon.

52:02 Because I completely related to you talking about how you never really felt like you were connected to your own community. And it was the same exact way for me where I know that there were some streets where, you know, everybody knew each other, but I don't know. I don't really know any of my neighbors. I never really. I don't know. I never really felt like a part of my town. And then I found a community where I do at UMass, where I do feel, you know, a part of it, and it's like, oh, when that's gone, can I really make a fresh start somewhere else?

52:39 Yeah.

52:41 And out of curiosity, did you feel that way when you were going through school?

52:47 I had a lot of fun in school. I liked it a lot, you know, but I'm not so sure I was focused on studying or learning. I was really just, you know, it was a. It was. It was a real social thing for me, you know, going away to college and, I mean, I did fine, but it wasn't necessarily my priority. I do have some regrets about that because I think I missed out on learning some things that probably I'd be happy to, you know, to have bolstered, you know, some of those skills. But I had a good time. I'm still in touch with people from college. You know, I mean, we just drove down, you know, took a trip south last winter, and I stopped and I saw two college roommates on the way, you know, it's 50 years later or more. More, I guess, and it's kind of crazy, but life is so strange is all I can say. Just time is. Feels like something made up at this stage of my life, you know, it's like, really, that was that long ago. What is. What is all that, you know? But that was a lovely community. And then I was lucky because, you know, the time I lived in, there was a lot going on in terms of people doing alternative things, like living together in more shared communities. You know, it was just a different experience. You know, the seventies, you've probably heard about it, you know, where we were trying out different things and different ways of being in the world. And that was fun, fun time.

54:42 Do you maybe remember how you were feeling when you're graduating from college?

54:49 Well, I was all over teaching. I mean, I was. I mean, I was all into it. I was really excited to. And I actually, I taught neartainde. I taught in the neighborhood. I wound up getting a job where I student taught, you know, right in that area. And I wasn't the only one that did. And so there was a cluster of us that just kind of continued. College is really what, you know, three or four of us just continued the experience, the experiment.

55:22 Yeah, sounds nice.

55:23 It was. It was. It was pretty easy. And it was different. I mean, it wasn't hard to get a job then. I mean, I, you know, it was a different time. I mean, I think you are in a really different. Such a different world. I would be terrified. I think, in your position, it's just a different world. It's just everything seems a little more. I mean, I could be wrong, but it just feels like, on the one hand, I didn't feel like I had all that much choice. I just kind of went down this path, but in going down that path, I at least had a path when I just took it, and I didn't really at the time, I flailed here and there, but I didn't really question it, and I was okay with it, and it worked out, you know? And I feel like for you, maybe it feels like everything's a possibility, everything's up for grabs, and yet maybe nothing's up for grabs. You know, it's hard to just, you know.

56:22 Right. Scary. Could you maybe tell me more about what you went through when it came to student teaching? Like, was there a. I don't know. How did you feel when you were just starting and, you know, you learned all about education and you had that experience, but now you're actually going into a classroom setting and working with students.

56:39 Yeah, well, I got put in a school with some really good teachers and I got placed there with two or three of my very close friends. And so it was kind of a hoot. It was hard. We were in an inner city school and the kids were tough or tough for us, you know, I don't know if they were really tough, but they were tough for us at like 5th, 6th graders, you know, but I was not alone, you know, and I had this team of teachers. I worked with three teachers, not one, and they were really helpful and I had my friends there, you know, and we would like literally, you know, go to someone's apartment and we would like figure out our week's lessons and kind of do all this stuff, do it together, you know, have some beers and, you know, just figure, plan it, go down the tubes in terms of, you know, being successful, not being successful. I think I worked with some talented people. I think I was probably pretty average, but some of my friends were remarkably fantastic and I learned a lot from them, you know, and that's kind of how I taught. I mean, I always met with other teachers and friends, you know, that people that kind of hung out together and we kind of figure shit out together. That was, was nice not to do it alone, you know, they go, it would have been really hard for me to go off on my own and, you know, falling on my face alone. It was kind of nice to struggle with other people.

58:21 Yeah, definitely. I don't know, especially because I feel like if you struggle and you setting alone, you, you kind of can't help but feel like, oh, nobody else is really going through this. Like I'm, this is just a problem that I'm going through. But then if there's other people around you, you know, that it's a common thing and there's nothing to be ashamed about.

58:42 Yeah. And you don't think so much about yourself in it. It's like the group of you in it, you know, it's a little easy. I don't know, it's a little easier, I think. Yeah, I had, I was lucky. I had very good people. I just fell on really wonderful friends and support. That's the positive thing about teaching, you know, you could get really lucky. I suppose you could get really unlucky too. But I got really lucky. You know, I worked with great people. I think that's key. I mean, I. I think who you work with is really, really important. You know, you gotta have, gotta have people that are that you admire around you or else, or at least I do. Or else it's kind of doom. Yeah.

59:32 Yeah. Did you ever feel overwhelmed at first now that you're actually in that classroom setting? Do you remember, you know what? Even your first day of student teaching was like?

59:42 Oh, my God. Yeah, it's high anxiety. Are you kidding? So, so much anxiety. It's really scary as anything. I used to have these dreams. I called them for a while. I would call them my September dreams. I literally couldn't sleep. I would dream like that. The kids would be like, carrying me out over their heads chanting, you know, like, I would completely lose control of everything, you know, very tough. And all the way through, you know, all the way through my college teaching, you know, it would always cause for me, you know, a little nervousness about, you know, how it's going to go. I mean, when things went well, they went really well, but when things didn't feel good, it feels horrible, you know, you imagine teaching and kids are texting or doing all this, you know, stuff and you're just, I don't know, it's vacuous. It can be really, really a challenge to kind of hold your ground and feel like you've got something to offer. Even when the people you're standing in front of think not so sure about this person. It can be challenging, really hard. And I never thought about that as a student. But, you know, certainly think about it now. You know, I would be a better student now, knowing what it's like to be a teacher.

01:01:03 Yeah. And how long do you think it kind of took you to fully become accustomed to the role of a teacher?

01:01:10 Never. I mean, I, you know, I mean, I think. I mean, a custom is one thing, but I always, that insecurity is just always a part of my experience, you know, and part of maybe what makes me get better. But, you know, really never. I mean, you know, there are classes that are phenomenal. There are students that just are inspiring. Inspiring, you know, that just blow my mind. They're so wonderful, you know, to watch them blossom and I, and all of that. But, you know, you're just this little goofy person acting like you know what you're doing, you know, and maybe you do, maybe you don't. Maybe you sometimes do, maybe you sometimes don't. You know? So strange bird for me, I know there are people that have a lot more confidence than I do. And, I mean, there are certain things, like I have certain things that when I teach it, you know, I. I'm expert in certain things. That I really, really, really know. And that's like, you can't touch that, you know? That's true. But. But there's all this. There's all that other ground, the emotional ground of teaching that is a little bit more. The terrain can be rocky, can be smooth. It could be anything.

01:02:48 Yeah, absolutely. It's also kind of interesting to think about disregarding the topics that you said that you are an expert on, where, from a little kid's perspective, their teacher, they're an expert in everything.

01:03:00 That's right.

01:03:01 And they always know what they're doing. But funny, especially when you're just starting out and you're in your twenties, you know, you're still a kid, and you're just. I don't know, you're kind of flirting with the other kids, and they don't really realize that.

01:03:18 Exactly. True. Exactly true. Yeah.

01:03:22 I don't know. I just. I definitely think that there's so much that goes into being a teacher, and it's one of the most definitely underappreciated positions that someone can have.

01:03:34 Yeah, but you do get a lot, lot out of it, too. I mean. I mean, the light, the people in. I've been really, just really, really lucky in terms of. I've had a lot of good, amazing people in my life, and I don't know that I would know as many people had it not been for teaching, because I wouldn't be that out there. But in teaching, you know, you kind of have to do it. You're out. You got to show up, you know, and you're there for the better or for worst of it, you know? But you do get a lot, you know? I mean, you can get a lot in the right situation, and I think you get so much from it.

01:04:17 Yeah, absolutely. And just going back on something that you just said, I think another really difficult part about being a teacher is you really. I mean, you can, but I feel like most of the time, you really can't have bad days. Even if you are going through your own issues, your own problems, you can't bring that into the classroom because that's just gonna reflect onto other students. You're not gonna learn as well. Were there a lot of times where you kind of, you know, had to hide what you were. You were going through and put on a happy face for your students?

01:04:50 Yeah, you have to, but it is easier to forget it, I think, for me, anyway. I think when you're in it and you're in the midst of kids that kind of need you, almost easier to get out of yourself. I mean, like, you could show up and be a mess, right? You didn't get enough sleep, went out too late. It could be anything, right? But when you show up and there they are, it's like you're never tired, you know, you're never bored. You know, you could almost wish you would be bored, but it all just disappears because it's right in front of you and it's alive and it's moving and, you know, you just have to respond to it. It's. I don't know. I mean, maybe some people get lost in themselves, I think. I don't know that I. I don't know that I could carry my shit deeply into the classroom because I would. They. The kids would distract me from it at the very least, you know, mostly you just get involved in the. What needs to happen or some catastrophe, you know?

01:06:02 Yeah, I don't know. I think that's great. And. I don't know, I think it's just really nice that you could see teaching as an escape from, you know, even when you were going through a rough time, you knew that there were people there at your job who were depending on you, so you had to be there for them.

01:06:22 Yeah. You really forget. I mean, I do think most people can't. I don't know, maybe if you're really struggling, like really, really in a crisis, but I just don't think you can hang on to your shit it too much. I mean, I know people act out and they can be so mean and whatever they do, but I think basically, I mean, if one kid doesn't find you and get you, another kid will. In a. Not in a negative way, but just in an interactive way, you know, it's like you can't. You have to interact. You know, you have to kind of get out of yourself and, I mean, you can go home and suffer big bunches, but in that classroom, I just would be very interested to know if people really can. Like what people that are really in huge mental health crises, if they. If they can stay in their crisis in the classroom. I'm kind of curious about that, you know, maybe.

01:07:26 Yeah, I think. I don't know. Why do you hear about things like that? It's reflected very badly onto the teacher where it's, you know, because they are going through a mental health crisis and that. And, you know, if students are acting up, that just keeps piling up on top of each other and eventually they explode and then, you know, they're labeled as a violent teacher, and I don't know. It's really difficult.

01:07:53 Yeah, yeah.

01:07:58 Yeah. I don't know. It's. But then, like, I know I keep saying this, but they're just so many different factors of being a teacher.

01:08:04 It really. But probably, I mean, you know, you're in the field of psychology. I think anything with human interaction, there's so many moving pieces, you know, that are constantly shifting and so many unknowns, so many, you know, and then, you know, and then you're in that mix with all your. Whatever's going on in your family and your life and, you know, it's just. It's not dull. It's not dull. Life goes by very fast, you know.

01:08:42 Yeah, it's. I don't know. It's definitely like a little bit scary to think about that. No matter what you do, time just keeps going on.

01:08:52 Yeah, I don't think you should think about that now. I don't want to be a part of you thinking about that now.

01:09:00 No, I even like. Without having this conversation. It's something that I think about way too often. It's bad. There are times where even when I was a lot younger, probably like twelve years old, I would just lie awake at night and just think about that. That I can't stop time for moving no matter what I do.

01:09:24 Yeah.

01:09:24 Terrifying.

01:09:25 It is terrifying. Wow, that's amazing that you thought about stuff like that.

01:09:31 I don't know if I call it amazing.

01:09:33 Yeah, well, I mean, I remember thinking about how fast time went because I can remember, like, wow was last summer, just yesterday. And here it is, another summer, you know, summers were sort of a big deal to mark time, but I. But I think I was pretty carefree in a certain way as a kid, you know, I worry about the world now because there's so much information out there to be so scary, you know?

01:10:01 Yeah, absolutely. It's. Yeah, I don't know. It's definitely scary to think about the future, whether that's about at least when I'm talking about myself, about me as an individual and what I'm going to be doing or what the state of the world is going to be like. Because it seems like everything is just falling apart every time I open the news. Yeah, I think the news, you know, I'm not going to lie to you. I kind of. I definitely try to avoid it. I'm not even going to lie to you just because I like to. I would like to stay informed. But there's times where I'm. Where at least me personally, I just like being blissfully ignorant so I don't know.

01:10:52 I understand. I can't deal with it all, you know, all the time. I mean, lately especially, I'm wondering if I should. I'll go into the hallway or something. No, but I'll do it. I'm going out into the hallway because I think it's time for me to. We're in a hotel right now, and I'm in my jams, as you can probably, fortunately. See, I'm going to just go in the hallway for a bit. We're in Warwick, Rhode island, of all places. Anyway, we helped my sister move, and my area is Rhode island, you know, so. But we've been at this hotel for a week.

01:11:43 Oh, wow.

01:11:44 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I'm in Northampton, but my family. Everybody's in that Rhode island area, so we came down to kind of help out anyway, so I just kicked out because it's time for me to shut up. There's a chair out here. I thought I'd go here anyway, so. Yeah, I feel like I got something that I would wish you would have, probably you had in pieces. But I do think the world is. Seems like it's a harder place, but maybe every old fart says that when they look back, they think, oh, God, it's so complicated now. And it was. I mean, there's disadvantages. Like, I, you know, be a nurse, be a teacher, you know, but at the same time, there's a bit of carefreeness to it, you know? And, I mean, I was really naive when I was a kid. I did not know that the world was bad. I mean, I didn't. Even though World War two had already happened and stuff, I didn't really know about that until later. And I was so protected from really bad shit, and I'm not sure that kids are, or that you even were, you know.

01:13:02 Right. And, you know, the thing is, you grew up and world War two ended, and you think, oh, World War three hasn't happened yet. Like, we're in a peaceful world, when that's not the case at all, wherever. Yes, there are. No. Yes, there have been no wars that affected. That have affected me personally. But, you know, just this plan is very big. There's wars going on all over the world that are just as bad, and. God, I don't know.

01:13:33 I know. This is a horrible conversation, isn't it? Neither one of us will be able to sleep for months. Yeah. Well, what happens at. What's the next steps in this class? What happens.

01:13:52 Actually, you know what? Before I talk about that, let me end the recording, okay?