"I see you. I hear you. And I ache for you."

00:01 Hey, Victoria. How are you?

00:03 I'm really good. How are you today?

00:04 I'm fine. Good. So do you want to start with introducing yourself? Sure.

00:10 I'd be happy to. So my name is Victoria Johnson. I am a quality compliance specialist here at Providence elder Place. I am 26 years old, and I live in Seattle, Washington. And today I will be having a wonderful, in depth conversation with my coworker, my friend, my work mom, ongoing caterer, Jeremy Edmonds.

00:36 Well, thank you, Victoria. And as Victoria intimated, Victoria is also my work friend, my colleague, and she is my work daughter. I'm Jeremy Edmonds. I'm a 58 year old black lesbian who lives on vacant island, and I work for providence elder place as a marketing and intake representative.

00:59 Wonderful. So. Oh, this conversation. Are we ready?

01:04 Yeah, I am. Let's get it. Let's go. As they say.

01:07 Let's get it. Let's go. So we are. We're recording in a very sensitive time, given Covid, and then now we're seeing a not even national, but a global uprising as a result to some of the things that we're seeing related to police brutality and the deaths of armed citizens. But I do, before we start, want to really thank Providence and Providence elder place, and the Institute of Human Caring. These are such rewarding opportunities to sit down and fellowship above anything else with fellow caregivers and learn a little bit about their experiences. So I really do want to give a nice shout out and also a very special thank you for the opportunity for this.

01:58 Agreed. You know, when I actually was asked by Melody and Mike to do this recording for the hear me now institute, the first thing I thought of was how gratified I was to work for an organization that was interested in what I had to say and sought me out to say those things. And at the same time, I'd like to also say how heartened I am to work for an organization that believes in the power of nonviolent protests and supports all of us in doing this. And it's a beautiful thing, and I know a lot of people don't have that luxury, and I'm very grateful. So I'd also like to echo what you just said, that I'm very happy to be able to do this.

02:42 Definitely. Definitely. So I want to ask you a kind of. Kind of right out the gate about your experiences. So, I'm 26 and you're 58, so we have some decades between us, but somehow I feel like our experiences are very, very similar. So I would like to ask you point blank, when was the first time that you can recall that the color of your skin was been against you.

03:13 Wow. My earliest recollection, there's two. And my earliest recollection, I was seven and seven. I was in middle school.

03:22 You were a child.

03:24 I was in Tallinn, Connecticut, at Tallinn middle school. I'll never forget it. This young kid, little kid, same grade as me. I'll never forget his name. His name was Howard Lahue. And Howard used the n word and called me the n word. And I had never heard the n word in my life. I didn't even know what it was. So I went home that night, having had my altercation with Howard. And I told my dad, who at the time was chairman of the board of the first minority owned and operated bank in the entire country. It's called Connecticut savings and loan. He's also the first black insurance executive of Travelers Insurance. He's also the first selectman, which is basically mayor and head of the town council for any town in New England. So I come from a long line of people. When I have a picture of my dad given the black power sign and black handshake with Jesse Jackson, this is something my family has always believed in. Here I am back with Howard Lahu, and I said to my dad, I said, daddy called me a word that rhymes with wig, and it's okay because that's the innocence of being a child. That's how that gets translated or how you ingest that type of hatred. The first, like many of us, is you're completely confused. You have no idea that your experience is so much, vastly different than anybody else's. Back to Howard. My dad gave me some appropriate tactics to use with the bully, which is basically what I did, and that resulted in me shoving him through a snow fence. I didn't do it to be meand to. I did it because he hurt me, and I wanted to show him that he did. And then the next time was exactly seven years later. I was a freshman, high school, beginning my athletic career as a track athlete, which I was really successful at. But anyway, I got told by a classmate, an upper classman, junior senior girl. Her name was Gina. And she said that jungle bunnies and porch monkeys don't run long distances. And there aren't any reason for me to be out here running across country because I was black, and we all know black people don't run. Don't run distances. And I remember how I felt, which was a whole lot of rage and pain and vulnerability and shaking. And I remembered thinking that I had just seen the thriller in Manila, which was for anybody over 45, the famous fight between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman.

06:02 Just called me out.

06:03 I hear you because you're young. I basically ended up clocking her, and I freaked out because she was momentarily unconscious. And I also helped me to realize at that moment that responding in violence wasn't going to be the way to solve anything. Just because you hurt my name and called me names wasn't reason for me to react that way. It did give me a lot of school, a lot of school yard respect. I didn't have to go through those things again. But do you remember our time, Victoria, when you were confused by racism and when racism showed for you? How old are you?

06:40 You know, I had a very similar upbringing as you. My father was very pro black, was very black power. And he. I remember he would wash my face in the morning, just look at me and say, you look like a brand new penny. Because my skin. And it was just. It was a really comforting moment. But I think a lot of it had to do with my hair. I didn't necessarily understand why my hair wasn't straight, and I didn't understand why all the other girls got to wear their hair down, but I had to wear my hair in a braid or in a ponytail. And it wasn't until a little bit later that I realized that society still views our hair in its natural state, as unprofessional. And so that really, that kind of took the cake for me. I do remember having just girls be really mean to me. And I grew up in a upper. An upper middle class, I would say higher class area. I was one of the only black girls in my school. There was one other black individual. He was a young boy, and I believe he was nigerian. But people actually were really nice to him because he was good at sports. And I did not want to run. I wanted to eat cookies and be a normal girl, and I never really was able to do that. And then I also kind of learned as I got into high school that I didn't sound, I guess, like all the other black girls, or I didn't talk or dress the way that they did. And in turn, that actually resulted in not being black enough for black people, but not white enough for white people.

08:34 Hence the term Oreo.

08:36 You know, I had a guy actually break up with me and call me a pretentious Oreo as an insult. So been there, done that. But I feel like the moment that was really life changing actually didn't happen until I was a little bit older. And it wasn't until I started seeing more evidence that I am not safe in my own skin doing everyday things. Right around the time of the Oscar grant, did you ever watch fruitvale station?

09:10 Yes.

09:10 Okay, so right around the time of the Oscar grant, um, the Oscar grant shooting, and then. Or the Oscar grant death, and then you go into, you know, the Trayvon Martins and then the Sandra blands. And so it's been going on for so long that I began to have moments where I realized that, oh, my goodness, you know, they're. This isn't just some person who just died. Like, these are almost systematic or almost, you know, not even planned, but in very intentional, in a way. And I think what it resulted for me was it turned into a form of confusion. And what often happens with confusion is sometimes there's a little bit of rage. And so I would definitely say that as I've gotten older, I am definitely more sensitive to it because I wasn't raised in an area where, you know, things were, you know, I was taught about the color of my skin or our. Even our history. I didn't. I didn't even learn about that until I got older. And I'm actually, like, related to black history, I believe I told you. So. I do have a family member who is, you know, a very well known inventor. And so to know that, okay, you know, I. I come from this family. I come from this history, but it's constantly minimized, or at any point in time, I could be unsafe for going to the grocery store or even for walking my dog is immensely scary. And it's something that I feel like I'm trying to work through. But what's interesting is year 58, and you've had very similar experiences to, you know, what I've had. Being 26, is there anything that you. Would you say that it's gotten better, it's gotten worse? It's just kind of is what it is. What is your overall feeling of just. And I want to ask it from the standpoint of civil unrest. So we are, especially as black women, we are doers. We do a lot of things, especially out of love. You taught me that we do a lot of things out of love. So how does it feel being a black woman, operating out of love and knowing that you have so much to give and you just want to take care of people and seeing this happening?

11:31 Well, first of all, it's a great question, and I just would like to say what I'm struck at, both figuratively and literally, is that here we are, two women on the same screen, one gay, one straight. We're both different generations, and we've both had the same experience. Which, on the superficial level, answers your question that really, things haven't changed. That would be a superficial answer, but that's not really the honest answer. The honest answer is yes and no. Yes. Things have changed markedly for many people. We have the LGBTQ movement built on the structure and the bones of the civil rights movement of the sixties, which was, I was born right when I'm 58. I was born right after or during segregation, when segregation was being driven away and taken and taken out. Probably not the right word, but you guys get the idea. Back to your question about the yes and no. I do believe that things have changed. But when I am faced with you still feeling the way you do 30 years after I was on this planet, when I look at the injustices that we are still suffering. And let's be clear, it took the collective society at large, the world, to be upset about the murder of this black man, as the video showed someone on his neck for eight minutes and 43 seconds. The sad part is that it took a video of such depravity to get people to believe what black people have been saying for so many hundreds of years. It's like. Well, sarcastically, black folks will tell you the best thing that ever happened to black people was the invention of the iPhone or the camera phone, because that meant that what we were experiencing couldn't be denied any further.

13:33 Right.

13:34 We were a little naive in that, because sometimes things were denied, even with irrefutable evidence. But this leads me to something that a really simple analogy I heard regarding racism that really kind of characterized and crystallized for me what we're experiencing. And that is, is that racism is a lot like dust. Like dust. Racism is invisible. Like dust. Racism is permeable everywhere. Like dust. You don't see it until you're absolutely physically, emotionally, and it's spiritually choking on it. That is when we all know that racism exists. Like dust. When you shine a light in a dusty room, the sunbeam of light is what shows you where the dust is. We need that sunlight of society and that sunlight of equality to shine on this dusty room. We have of racism. At the same time, also like dust, racism is something that you perpetually have to keep at. It's not something. We've learned this over and over again. One time, you wipe away the dust. Okay, it's clear now, but guess what? Dust and racism will come back. I think if there's anything that I could impart and. And all of the people, the white folks who now realize what is truly happening and want to be allies, it would be this. What I would say is, recognize that you're dealing that well. Let me start again. I just celebrated this past weekend, my 14th year of sobriety.

15:16 Congratulations.

15:18 Thank you very much. And a lot of what I've learned and the lessons I've learned have come through the prism of my recovery and sobriety. And one of the things that I've learned is that there is no statue of limitations that I can put on people as to when they have to ascribe and start my b's. In other words, I was an alcoholic for many years, and I caused a lot of collateral damage for those who tried to hang in there and be with me. And it wasn't until I got sober that those relationships changed. Point being is that with regard to the situation of racism in this country, my ask of people, of white people is that they sit with being uncomfortable, that they sit in that, that, marinate in that, and understand what that means, to feel that uncomfortable, because it is only through pain. I have learned in my recovery that we grow. If we were all happy all the.

16:26 Time, we would never grow.

16:28 We would never grow because you wouldn't know the difference between being unhappy and happy. You would have nothing to compare it to. The same goes with this uncomfortable feeling that I need people to sit in. I need you to sit in it and understand. And the last thing I'd like to say, the most important thing is, or a very important component, is as you sit in this uncomfortable feeling and as you try to not stay there and to reach out and to say to black people, hey, I really understand what you've been through, or I'm really trying to understand what you've been through, please, please don't recoil. If that hand is slapped, if the person on the other end does not receive your grace, it just means that grace isn't able to be received. Not yet. And my ask of white people would be that they keep extending their hand. This is the only way it's going to change, is if all begin to forgive ourselves and each other. And that's where it has to start. So I ask, and my prayer going forward will be for patience and that people understand that if the hand is slapped, please extend it again. Don't please keep extending that olive. French. Because that's going to change.

17:44 I think that's beautifully put, honestly, because I. One thing I've noticed and I try to use when I talk to people is we are. Even though we rely on a lot of our experiences with each other, we are individuals. We're born alone. We will essentially die alone. But what makes life so meaningful is the lessons that you learn and the experiences and the fellowshipping that you get to do. So you and I have been fellowshipping for a while. Well over a year, I think, because we just celebrated. A year and a half, actually. Yeah, it is a year and a half. So, like, thinking back on it, you know, fellowship is such a huge part of the human experience. While I can't touch your arm and take away your pain, I can actually listen to what you're saying and think about a time that maybe I felt that way and empathize. And I think that this, especially what we're seeing in the news and people protesting, is it's really just reaching out for human fellowship, just asking and giving the opportunity for people to step into our shoes, because it's not an easy shoe to fit into. And like you said, it is very uncomfortable. But your greatest moments of growth come from your discomfort. You. And I was talking with my mom about this. I was asking her what happens if I make a mistake, if I do this thing. And her advice to me was, it's not a mistake. It's a lesson. You learned something you didn't have. You then realized something that you didn't know previously. And I feel like that's a little bit what this is. It's just a learning lesson. But the problem is, and you hit it beautifully on the head, is that we have. We are casual dusters. We dust whenever there is company coming over or if we have to take a picture and we don't want our. The background to look dusty. Or if I'm taking a mirror in the selfie, I got to wipe down the mirror really fast so no one thinks I'm dirty. Like, there are times where we address racism, but we do it not with the intention of learning or understanding. We're doing it just so that it doesn't leave a nasty impression on what we want others to perceive us as. And I think that's my frustration with it, is I'm a very big doer. I am very big. If you walk, walk, you should talk the talk. You know, if you're going to do something, you should. My grandmother was very big on. Your word is your bond. You stand by it. And so what's interesting and what we've seen is, and I do actually want to touch on what the phone or what technology has essentially done for bringing to light these police brutality cases and showing what it's like to just want something so simple as basic life. And to be able to do. Go to the grocery store and pick up formula or pick up, you know, trash bags or whatever the case may be, is almost a fear that we can't even leave our house to do anything. And there it came from somewhere. And I think I'm frustrated because I want to know where it came from. I want to know why. You know, we've decided that that one life means more than another life, or it's okay for people in this uniform. And one thing that I struggled with was, there are a lot of people who do see Black Lives Matter as an organization. They see it as a terrorist organization. And I had a very in depth conversation about, no, it's not a terrorist organization. We're really just marching for a chance to have a normal, everyday life. That's really all we're asking. Where we don't get pulled over, where we don't get tased, not getting out of a car. There were two college students in Atlanta who, you know, the young man actually was on the news and said he had the piece of the taser left in his back for 8 hours. Can you imagine that? 8 hours. And you. And I think for me, my frustration and being 26. So I'm happy that in a way, like, we have these videos, but at the same time, I'm so mad. I'm so mad. And it's hard not to be in a state of rage or to be in a state where you're almost jaded. And my. And I think we've gone kind of down this road a little bit. But one thing that annoys me is that when we try to get passionate about it, we're written off as angry black women. We're angry for having any passion, whether it's for. And you and I both work in healthcare. We both work with a vulnerable population of elderly. So being vulnerable and. Or actually being advocates for these vulnerable populations or for these vulnerable people or even for the work that we do, sometimes it can come off as being an angry black woman. And I feel like that's so. That's so unfair, because we just. We care.

22:45 We.

22:46 Like I said, we're women. We operate out of love. And as black women, we. We spend, operate from a place of deep love and witnessing sorrow consistently and not wanting to see that again. So that's another thing that I. I would love your experience on a little bit.

23:04 So many questions, so many thoughts, a couple things that I wanted to talk on about what you just addressed. It sounds to me, if I could put it in two words, it would be describing the experience of everyday racism and finding us what black folks go through every single day. Before we even get up to get into an office, there's a thousand things that we've got to consider. And to your point, of angry black women, one of the things that when I first came to elder place, I remember a manager speaking to me and saying, it's great that you. You're here and you're going to be helping us diversify who we enroll in elder plays. And that's a great thing. And initially, when I joined elder plays, some was, it was shared with me that they thought that it would be hard for me to interact with different ethnicities because, right, maybe asian folks wouldn't want to talk to me, maybe, you know, a whole myriad of people, but that I need to be prepared for that inevitability. Well, happily, I can say that's never happened. I have never had one elder ever say anything to me about my race or who I was. Mainly what it comes up is about my name more than anything else. Okay, fine. But really, what I wasn't prepared for was how many ways that I would have to stand in my truth and how many ways I would have to politely discuss the things that are hard with folks that didn't see that what I was saying was a problem. I can't tell you how many emails I've had to write over again for the fact that if I said what I really wanted to say, which was always to advocate for the person I'm working with, it's never personal to the recipient of my email, but I've had to change how my tone is written in an email for just that stereotype that I don't want to be personified as an angry black woman, because if that happens, nothing is going to get done.

25:10 So that's so unfair. I don't mean to interrupt, but that's so unfair. It's because we're just people trying to care about our. The people that we're serving and which kind of, you know, shameless. Plug again, is why I'm really glad that we get to do this recording, because you and I represent something so much bigger than this person may not want to enroll in the program. And even looking back on, you know, then you really get into the lives of African Americans and the role that we play in society. But since, you know, we're in the middle of COVID I think now would even be a great chance to just kind of look at, you know, how often black individuals are not given the healthcare that they need because it's perceived that we don't feel pain the same way or that we don't have a pain tolerance or, you know, we're over exaggerating. And that's so. It's heartbreaking in a way, and. But it feels like the only way to get back at that is to really be that person in healthcare where you enroll people. Or in my case, I'm advocating on the back end because that's not something that we believe in. I think, for me personally, I believe that healthcare is a basic human right. And I feel like that regardless if a woman was turned away because she was in labor, I do want her to feel comfortable coming to elder place or providence and just saying, we don't look at you by your race. All we know is that you're a person in need. So I hope that, if anything, this is able to be a reminder of what you represent in the healthcare community. And it's somebody who opens an ear and listens, and you are fantastic at listening. The amount of time you listen to my problems.

27:12 No, it's fine. I think if I could really, given this amazing opportunity we've been afforded. As I think back to George Floyd, the hardest thing about that video for me was that he was a man who, in his last breath, called for his mother. And I am a mother. I'm a mother of a 20 year old african american male who's amazing and bright and kind and giving and lives for his community. And to be honest with you, I told this to him. That when I had my son, I wanted to raise a good human being. I wanted to raise a person that would be part of society and not take away from the things in society. Not be a drain on society, but just be a good person in society.

28:05 Right?

28:07 I have told him this, that he has far exceeded anything I had ever dreamed for him in becoming the man that he is. You've met Noah. He's an amazing person. So I say all this to say that as a mom, watching George Floyd cry for his mother when he was being murdered told me that I never, ever, ever get to say, okay, my son is raised. My son is good, and I can send him out in the world and let him be the adult and the man that he is intended to be, that he wants to be. Watching that man die in front of me crying for his mother taught me that I have to worry about my child until I draw my last breath. It's a lot different of a worry than maybe some of the white moms and dads that I know have to deal with. You know, all kids struggle. All kids go through their stuff. But at some point in their life, you as a parent get to say, you know what? Johnny's good. He's got a wife, great job, he has a home. He's doing great. I don't have to worry about him. I can just work, worry about me or something else. I will never have that luxury. I worry about my child until I drop my last breath, no matter what my child's doing. Because in the back of my mind, since the time the child is eight, I've had to tell him how to react when he gets, when he attracts the attention of a police officer. Now let's little quick anecdote. He goes to wazoo. We live on Rashan, 250 miles. Car trip, 5 hours. Oh, and he bought a bright red car because he's a cougar. Great. Okay. He's been pulled over several times, right?

29:55 Oh, wow.

29:56 And he said it's the scariest thing that's ever happened to him. And what he does is he says, mom, I know how to speak in a way and talk in a way that lets police officers know that I'm not threatening. And my heart breaks from my child. He has to do that, that he has to subjugate himself in a way so that the bottom line is he leaves with a ticket and a fine and not dead.

30:23 I. And that's the crazy thing. As much as you don't want a ticket, you don't want to lose your life. So if it comes down to exactly, when it comes down to paying a $250 ticket. But what no one also talks about is eventually, if you keep getting them, what that can do to your driving record. Or I think, yeah, we don't talk about that. But then that also goes into the school or the prison industrial complex where there's so many more opportunities for black males or young adults to be slapped on the wrist that eventually it's just going to be, well, this is the final consequence. We warned you, but it was never, it's never talked about that. You. I was purposely scoped out or I was racially profiled or extra eyes were on me during this time. It's almost like a failure. Like you. It's almost like someone put, tied you to like, a bag of sand and told you to run and then got mad at you because you weren't running. As fast or you were running too slow. And that reminds me of a story when. When I had first started dating my. My fiance. So my fiance, as you know, he's white. And we met in Spokane, Washington. Spokane, Washington, has. I think, last time I checked, it was 2.3% black or something like that. But the joke that I had was, all 20 of us are going to get together for thanksgiving. It'll be okay. There was not. I don't even know if there were 20 people. It was a place where I would actually see another person of color, whether they were african american, black.

32:11 Random down, didn't you?

32:12 Doesn't matter. You would do a double take. You did a double take. Anytime you saw a person of color, you'd be walking. You're like, oh, oh. And then, you know, you wave and talk to people. But there was a night when I had dinner at my fiance's house, and he lived closer to the border of Idaho, so that's also a factor in that. But we. I went out to my car, and I was getting ready to leave. It was getting pretty late, and I. And I saw that my tire had her flat. And I was like, okay, well, I've got my donut in the car. My fiance's or boyfriend at the time, he's here, so he can help me, but he actually had a tool in his car, which is kind of a portable air tire thing, so it, like, refills your tire. So he went to go grab it, and I was like, okay, thank you. Oh, I forgot something upstairs in your house. Can I go grab it? And so while he was grabbing that, I ran upstairs. I was coming down the stairs walking, and I see a security guard come, like, running towards me, like, booking it towards me. And as he got closer, he saw that I was black. I was kind of near a light. And he reaches for his gun, or whatever the case was, he started reaching for it, and he gets closer, and he starts yelling at me, what are you doing? Who are you? Stop. Like, basically yelling orders at me. And if it wasn't for the fact that my partner had saw it, I don't know what would have happened. Because when my partner saw that the officer or the security guard was coming near me and with his hand where a gun would be, he quickly jumped in and said, no, no, no, she's okay. She's with me. Her tire just has a flat. I'm helping her. I know her. It's fine. But in that moment, I mean, I still think about, you know, my life. My life could have changed that night. If it hadn't have been for somebody stepping in or having a partner there to kind of step in and say, oh, no, no, I see that this is going. Going pretty, pretty badly, or this has potential to go badly. And it was a harrowing moment. It was.

34:21 And to that end, there's a couple things I want to say, but very quickly, let's talk about the level of vulnerability, the level of I can do absolutely nothing about my circumstance right now. And let's also talk about that. You weren't even validated until another white person came to tell you that you were okay.

34:42 And I feel like that's so big. Sorry not to cut you off.

34:45 No, no, it is big. It's huge. Because what it is is completely dehumanizing. And this goes back to the thousand little knife cuts that african american people must subject themselves to be productive members of this society every day. You have to understand a couple of things, and this is where history plays a big role. And probably where I need to bring up. I was a history major in college. Drop the mic. I was a history major in college. But one of the things that is really evident in us history is that for all the way through, I would have to say, through the civil war and into the early Jim Crow times much later. But I'll leave it at that definitive time. I can say this. We weren't treated as human beings. We were considered three fifths of a person. Think about that. We were considered three fifths of a human being. So from that premise, so many brutalities of demi humanizing things can be validated. If you don't think we're human beings to begin with, that is why George's neck got to be snapped under that man's me, because the man didn't see him as a human being. And we have to go back to that one other factoid. Every single violent protest in this United States since my birth has been because, except for the riots that occurred when Martin Luther King was killed has been a result of a police brutalizing act. Police brutality is the reason why we riotous. We're not rioting because of. We're rioting for our very lives. And frankly, the social contract between black Americans and white Americans was broken a long time ago. And I think that until white Americans understand that this social contract was broken, and not by us, but by the acts that they have done, we can certainly find them in history. I can name two. Rosewood and Tulsa, Oklahoma. The Black Wall Street, 1918. Black folks were doing what they needed to do for themselves, which is supporting and taking care of themselves and making valued businesses. And they were murdered and killed in the entire section of town raised. So until white America and white people understand that the social contract between us is broken, and frankly, I think it's amazing that all we're really asking for is equality, to be honest. So that's where it has to start. Stop thinking of us as less than. Stop dehumanizing our experiences, stop only believing our experiences matter when they're recorded by an iPhone, you know, and forever. And it has to stop.

37:31 And even that, you know, I will say that I actually had a debate with somebody because even with the video recording, they were hung up on this piece of allegedly, there was a video of the young man who was walking in Central park, and he asked a woman to please put her dog on a leash in a leash required area. And the woman, Cooper, the birdwatcher, right? Yes, the birdwatcher. Yes. But for those who don't know the full story, this young man was walking in Central park, came across a young woman with her dog. Her dog was off leash in a part of the park where dogs are supposed to be on leashes. He did ask her to please put a leash on her dog, and she gets very upset. He's recording, and she basically, in the video, says, I'm gonna call 911 and tell them that I'm being attacked by a black man.

38:28 She just weaponized his very existence.

38:31 And that's crazy, is that you know exactly what words to say that you know are going to cause. Cause a reaction. And I love that you brought up that unless there wasn't a white person there, then my life wasn't valid. It honestly, which actually goes back to why having these conversations are so important, because that's such an empathetic moment that maybe perhaps people don't understand because they're. They're male or they're white or what have you. But I guarantee that every female knows what it feels like to have a man never leave you alone until you say, I have a boyfriend. So because you have a male figure in your life, then. Then I can let go? Like, you're. You're not a value. You. You're still free reign, and I can do whatever I want to you. Unless you have a boyfriend, then that's hands off. And so in this case, or in, you know, what you were explaining about my story, to know that not only is my life not a value because I'm black, but I'm not a value because I'm a female. And it took a white male, white, six foot, 200 pound male stepping in to saying, no, I know her, or to even act as that cover or just to even act as that ally. And it's infuriating. But at the same time, it's something that a lot of women have gone through which actually, I bet, would humanize or put our experiences in a way that people can understand. Because no one likes that feeling. No one likes the feeling of feeling like they don't matter or that their voice has been taken away. And just to know that that happens, you know, taking that and putting that in words or putting that in a feeling that maybe somebody can understand, you know, that's the first step of educating and starting that uncomfortable conversation, is you don't. And maybe not everyone knows what that discomfort feels like. Maybe not everyone knows what it feels like to feel as though you don't matter or that your worth has been stripped away. But there are times, times in your life where you've probably felt less than. And it's not. It's not a fun feeling. It's not a fun feeling to operate that way or to even walk into rooms and wonder, oh, I wonder what's the first thing that they're going to see? That I'm black or that I'm a woman? Which happened at a job interview for me. The manager who was interviewing me didn't know I was in the lobby, and he asked one of the people who selected me to come in. So I guess the HR person, I suppose, he asked her to tell him about her, about me. And she was like, oh, you know, she's in my class. She's. She's smart. She worked in project management, so on and so forth, she's black. And out of everything he said, out of everything that she said about me, all the wonderful things, his first question was, wait, how black are we talking? Obama black? And I'm thinking, oh, my God, what is it? What? It changed it, because I actually wasn't nervous for that interview anymore.

41:51 No matter. I know we have to wrap this up soon. And I think because right where we are right now is a pretty tough place. Place to be. Like saying, if we summarize, you know, hey, white people who don't believe in racism, hey, be uncomfortable with what's going on. And I get that that's really not a very uplifting message to give to anyone. So I think what I want to let. What I would like to leave as some of the last conversation we have is that, again, it goes back to the gratitude and being able to change perceptions, be given an opportunity to talk to people about how we really feel. Because honestly, it is going to be one conversation at a time. I can't tell you how many white people who care about me have called me over these last two weeks to say to me, I'm thinking about you. I'm thinking about your family. I'm wondering if you're okay. And I can't tell you how gratified I am by those simple outreaches of, I see you, I hear you, and I ache for you. It starts there. Because I can best believe that the people who shared that with me weren't thinking of me as any less of a fifth of a human being than anyone else. These are people that love Victoria, that love Jeremy, and love what's going on in their lives. And so I just would make that ask. Have a conversation. If you don't know someone of color and you want to have a conversation with me about what I'm going through, call me. I'm happy to have a conversation with you. But find someone you trust, someone that you can approach, someone that you don't think is going to tell you what you think or feel is ridiculous. And have that honest conversation with them. And be sincere. And I honestly believe, if the sincerity is what's first received, that we can do this. We can really make this change. We can make it for this from my son, for the children you don't have. But one day will. We can make this change. And this is not a big ask. It's not. It's a journey. What they say the journey of a thousand miles starts with the first single step. Take the step. Take the step. Don't be afraid to take the step. Don't be afraid to reach out. Because I can tell you, 14 years ago the other day, I was feeling sick and tired of being sick and tired. And I am not the original originator of that statement. That's from Fannie Lou Hamer, 1964 civil rights activist who died helping people get the right to vote. She was sick and tired of being sick and tired.

44:34 Right?

44:35 And that's what it takes. Let's all just be tired of being sick and tired.

44:39 And that's the place where you see change. I'm sick and tired of feeling like I have no energy, so I might eat healthier. I'm sick and tired of not being able to spend time with my family, so I might look for something else to do with my time so I can be home with my family every day. I think you hit the nail on the head. It seems like we've had this conversation a hundred times. Well, that's because everyone gets. By the time we're actually getting to the parts of the conversation we need to talk about, everybody is so angry and up in arms and clothes, and you can't have. You can't always have a conversation, a constructive conversation with two people yelling. My grandmother used to say, don't ever argue with the fool. Because when people walk by, they won't know who the real fool is. I wonder if they're. And I think your call to action is well put. And it's a very, very attainable ask. You know, approach the conversation with sincerity. And I guarantee most, most black people and African Americans, or even people of color in general, that I know are happy. We are so happy to explain why we do operate from a place of education and growth, and it's painful for us. And that's the funny thing. Like, if you think about how sick everybody is of hearing about the conversation, how sick are we looking at Twitter or looking at the news or seeing this happen again? How tired of we. How tired are we of seeing this every day? And we're ready to have the conversation, we're ready to move forward. But yes, part of that is being uncomfortable. Part of that is identifying there is a gap right here, and we don't want this to keep happening. Like, we almost need, like, I don't know if you've ever had been involved in one, but I do a lot of root cause analyses, so I'm kind of like cause analysis on this.

46:33 Can we just break it down, girl? Just break it down.

46:36 Because. And that's the thing, is, it's not. It's not even a snack. It's not even a meal conversation. It's a little bit like a garden that hasn't been tended to. And if we just were to go back to that garden and tend to it, move away some of the weeds, put down some pesticide, or, you know, remove any bugs, you know, whatever the case may be. But part of being a human and being a person is recognizing that at any given point in time, we are eligible to grow. It doesn't matter if you're two. It doesn't matter if you're 92. There's still an opportunity to grow. And all we are asking is to do this as a nation or as a group, as a society, to grow together, not as, you know, people who are on opposing sides. And it sounds so cliche to say, you know, we just want equality or, you know, we just want everything to be. To be good, but, I mean, and I recognize that's not going to happen maybe for a while, but this is definitely the opportunity for one, we get to connect with people we've never connected with before, and we get to share our stories, and sharing that story, as uncomfortable as it may be, is exactly, exactly what we need. There's so many stories from my parents, which, you know, you're about the age of my mother, you know, and my mom was born, I think, in 59, so right around the time of segregation being ended. But my dad was born in 50. 319 53. So he was alive when segregation. And he's actually from the deep south, mobile, Alabama. So his experience with race and racism are very different than mine. But the pain and the hollow and the crying feelings that you get, the exhaustion, the exhaustion and the rage. But finding a way to make that rage creative, it's still exactly the same. Even though we are 25 years apart or 26 years, it doesn't matter. We've seen it enough times that we know that it's an issue. We know that there's dust, and we don't get to just wipe it or dust it once a week or, you know, once a week would be ideal, but you can't just dust it, you know, once every every year or once every once in a while. And I think I. What's very unique about what's going on is you. I don't know if you saw, but we've had protests in all 50 states across the country, and there were protests in Australia, South Korea, and a few other places, all for just protesting, like black lives matter. We've never seen that before. We've never seen that before. And part of me is really thankful. And I wonder if coming after Covid made a very interesting impact, because Covid changed everything. Covid made so that we all realized we are all just human beings. And this could hit anybody. It could hit me, it could hit you, could hit person. I love person. I don't even know. It's crazy how close it is. But we kind of realized, as a human race, oh, man, none of us are alone. It's not going to go strictly to people or white people or asian or old or, you know, what have you. So I wonder, now that we're seeing this following Covid, after we were forced to become real about any one of us could be next. Now we have. Oh, no. But this is also happening with that community. And I wonder if that had a result or if that contributed to the result of other countries and other states and other cities rising up and saying, no, respect that. Which is, which is great, you know, and I feel like I'm one of those people who I believe everything happens for a reason. So as negative and as, you know, life altering as Covid was, it definitely did put things into perspective in terms of, you know, your family, your friends. And that's what makes it sadder, is you have the unintentional consequences and the consequences. So in the George Floyd case, he, the consequence right away is, you know, this person lost their life, and now this police officer and all the other police officers involved are going to go through an investigation. But what about the other people? What about, as you put it, he was calling out for his mother. What about his mom? What about his daughter? What about, you know, his girlfriend or her family? Like, there's so many people, there's so many lives that interact with that one life. And when that one life was taken away, it impacted an entire ecosystem. And from that ecosystem, it affects people who see similarities. Like, oh, I'm black and I go to the grocery store or, oh, I write checks to pay my rent. You know, different things start playing through your head, and it's almost, it's not fair. There's no almost about it. It's not fair. It's nothing. It's not comforting. But it also is an opportunity to say, hey, you know, this, this needs to be discussed because it's still happening. And the iPhone piece or the camera piece is what makes it super. It makes it more real, but it also makes it that much more painful because I can't, I can't rewatch the videos. I think I watched them once and I decided I haven't, I couldn't rewatch it because it pulls out a piece of my soul. And I look at it and I wonder, you know, well, why didn't someone intervene? Why didn't someone, you know, push, push the gentleman or push the police officer off, whatever the case may be? But then there's also that harrowing moment of you. If you intervene with that mean your life, you're putting your life on the line in exchange for theirs.

52:29 Well, to wrap, I guess we're going to have to wrap, wrap this up because we've talked a lot and I know there's a lot.

52:38 Monitoring the chat, um, trying to monitor the chat and see if they want us to wrap up.

52:43 Oh, they did a while ago, but.

52:44 Oh, they did.

52:45 Oh, yeah. So, but they were very, and they let us. That, that's what editing is for. They get to do all that?

52:51 No, they'll just cut us all out. But anything that you would like to close with. Final message.

53:00 Yes, final message would be, again, for me. Most places come back to gratitude. I am so grateful to have had this conversation with you. I got to know more things about you than I already knew. And I love you as my friend. I love you as a really positive black woman doing all kinds of things that I didn't do at 26. And I'm so proud to just be a small shot in your orbit as you do that. Secondly, you're very welcome. Secondly, I want to thank the folks that hear me now, who allowed this to happen, who created the space for this to happen, who put their time and energy, and our friend Melody, who actually set all this up. Those are people who do things with intent, who do things that are purposeful. And that leads me to my final point, which is, let's just have. Let's all of us have these conversations. Let's all of them have them with sincerity and intent. Listen with intent, talk with intent, use words you exactly want to convey, because there isn't going to be an opportunity like this again, really one last shot to get this stuff right. This is the. This is what higher power and whatever you call higher power is affording us that in these moments of extreme pain, there's always a way we can look at and do things better. Whether we're talking about COVID or whether we're talking about a racial virus, which is what this is. We have an opportunity to do something different. And maybe the PPE of the racial virus is that we all sit down and have a conversation with some. Someone not like ourselves.

54:44 Yes.

54:45 Ask the questions. Hey, I don't know anything about you, but I want to. Let's just start with that and see what happens. Let's just have the conversation.

54:55 Definitely. Of course. Thank you. I want to close kind of with the same thing. I really appreciate Melody and Scott and Mike for all helping us just have these conversations. I think that we are in a very unique position, and we use hear me now, really, as a way to reinforce that, you know, we're all humans, and how we show that we're human and connect with other human is through storytelling and talking about our experiences and through our lives. And so I am beyond honored to have been asked to be a part of this and beyond honor to actually interview you as my work mom, as my elder, and as someone who just has so much life experience and has seen this in a very different way, but still knows kind of what's going on, kind of knows the game a little bit more than I do. But, yeah, I think my takeaway from this, or I guess my. My want from. For anyone who listens to this, is just to know that we were tired as an entire society, and that's not exclusive to black people or white people or asian people. I think we as a society, are very tired of the racial injustices and or even just the prejudices seen between one human being and another. Now is really the opportunity us to challenge ourselves or even humble ourselves and put us. Put ourselves in a position to learn more, learn more about the people we don't know about, the cultures we don't know about, the things that we just don't know that we interact with or choose not to interact with every single day and understand that culture, that our american culture is essentially a mosaic. It's a melting potential. It's made up of so many different cultures and different groups play a bigger role or play different roles in other parts of our culture. And for us to grow as a society and for us to continue to have this colorful culture, we really need to stop looking at it in terms of white, brass, white, black, brown, and green, and look at it as the different flavors of the different contributions that we. That we all have and that we all are able to give just by being present in our society. And by being present, I do mean being vocal and speaking up and having those conversations or even calling out a friend or a family member. It's very hard to call out your friends and family members when they do something awful. But I've had conversations with people where I let them know I'm not comfortable with you using the n word to me. Please don't use that word with me. And they. They really wanted to defend the right to do so. But, you know, as much as that's painful for me, I still was able to use it as an educational opportunity and say, hey, I recognize that you are of a different culture. I'm of a different culture. That word really hurts my culture, and it may hurt other people of my culture. Can we. Can we not use that word? And I don't want it to come off as a policing thing, but you're more likely, like, if you knew, Jeremy, if I was walking next to you and I pushed you into the wall, and you said, victoria, that hurt. I'm not gonna push you in the hallway again. Like, I'm not gonna do it. It's kind of like that. You don't always know. And that's okay. Whatever you don't know, it's okay. But once you know better, it is your responsibility to then do better. And I want this to at least spark the action of doing better, not just within, not from a race perspective, but from a true society purpose. You have so much room to grow and grow from each other.

58:52 Well, I think we should just end it there. Well done.

58:56 Well, thank you so much again. Always, always, always bringing food for thought and always fellowshiping with me. I appreciate it.

59:05 Anytime. Here's Mike.

59:14 Oh, I can't hear you, Mike, I think you're on mute. Mike's muted. Okay.

59:21 Powerful, insightful, poignant. Thank you so much, you guys. Of course, your day to, uh. We didn't disappoint, did we?

59:30 No.

59:31 Hell, no. Thanks for bringing the point. Thanks for bringing up Hamer. Um. Sick and tired of being sick and tired. Indeed, man. Um, I had a. I had a question, though. Um, the risk of. At the risk of opening up a can of worms, um, black lives matter. What do you. What do we say to our fellow citizens who. Who. Their automatic rejoinder is all lives matter? I got an answer.

01:00:06 Okay, Jeremy, you want to. You can go first.

01:00:09 When black folks say black lives matter, they are in no way trying to minimize any of the other races, like police officers, because you always hear how blue lives matter. If you look at the colorful mosaic of Victoria mentioned, of everybody being in this country, we've been dismissed for so long, we weren't even allowed to be human beings. We weren't even told we had lives that mattered in any way or shape or form. It's a way of us to remind ourselves and everyone else that we're human beings, too. It is by no means meant to take away from any other life per se. It is in direct cry to the fact that for so long, we weren't considered people, we were considered beasts of burden. That is where that comes from.

01:00:56 Can I also add to that in regards to, I guess, black lives matter and then the response of all lives matter, I am going to ask kind of a question. If you fall and you broke your left foot, would you not go to the doctor because your right foot is fine?

01:01:13 Right. The other analogy.

01:01:16 Unfortunately, we. We do understand that all lives matter. I don't believe that black lives should be held higher than white lives or any other lives. But in order for us to truly believe that all lives matter, we do have to recognize all the shades that do fall under all lives. And if we're continuing to say all livest matter, but don't want to address the belief or the action that black lives or people of color or brown lives or even asian lives don't matter, then we're not. We're not really doing anything with all lives matter. It's not achieving anything. It is a blanket way of saying, we don't all. We don't want to hear about that, or somebody has it worse. And that's not fair. You can't. If someone came to you with being upset, you wouldn't say, oh, well, everyone's life is hard. Get over it. No, that's not. That's not what we take. That's not the role that we take as human beings. We do take the role as treat others the way you want to be treated. I am an advocate for the golden rule, but we do advocate for that. And if you see someone in need, it's okay to stop and help them out. And in this case, that's all we're asking is, hey, we're in need. We will gladly support and be a part of any all lives Matter protest, but all we're asking is that you do make sure that when you say all lives matter, you include the lives of the people who are being lost due to police brutality or prejudice across the country. That's just my stance.

01:02:50 Love it. Love it.

01:02:53 Yeah.

01:02:53 When I was demonstrating on Friday, had that same kind of question. Someone threw that back at me, and I said, well, until black lives Matter, you can't have all lives matter. That's it. That's answer. That's a great answer to say, really.

01:03:08 And it's hard not to get angry. Like, I find myself getting very annoyed because it seems so simple. But I can also, unfortunately, I can also see the other side of it, where everyone feels that all lives do matter. And you do want to add that because you don't want to maybe neglect or leave out a certain group. But I. One thing that I've noticed is just the practice is very backwards. It's almost as though we can't be a part of it. It's very strange, but, yeah, we can't. All lives don't matter until the black lives matter, until even the brown lives matter. Or I'm even gonna say, you know, because we're coming out of COVID even the lives lost in China, like, they matter. We don't get to determine. And as human beings and working, you know, in healthcare, I think we don't get to determine. As a human, I don't get to determine the worth of somebody else. I don't get to determine if their life matters or if they deserve to be killed in a grocery store because they wrote a forge check. That's not my place to determine. My role is to really support fellow human beings in whatever way that I've been called to do. So there's there's almost a little bit too much of I decided that he did this bad thing one time. I'm going, it's fine. We're not. I don't support black lives matter because this person was a criminal. Well, that's not necessarily our role to determine. We're not here to determine that. And it sucks to kind of think about it as, oh, well, what if that was your brother? What if that was your cousin? But if that's what it takes to make it hit closer to home, then sometimes that's the lens we have to look at it through.