Susan Bolinger and Sheila Hawley

[00:00] SHEILA HAWLEY: Okay. All right. So, yeah, saying 50 minutes.

[00:05] SUSAN BOLINGER: That's it. Me too. Perfect.

[00:08] SHEILA HAWLEY: Perfect. That's wonderful.

[00:10] SUSAN BOLINGER: So now I have to look back. Tell me, because I wanted to ask you. Okay. I'm reading your, reading your bio again here. Okay. Oh, so many things. So many things. Well, we both put spiritual or lost a loved one. Spiritual. I'm not a parent. Creative acting. In my community, we both put those things. Tell me again, Sheila, why you want to have conversations such as these?

[00:46] SHEILA HAWLEY: Because I like to talk to people who don't live in the same place that I live. You know, because even though, you know, we're all United States, it's a whole different world, state to state, really. And, and especially now. Where are you? You're out in Michigan or Minnesota or.

[01:11] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, well, I, I used to be. My husband and I moved about a year ago from Savannah, Georgia. But I've lived all over the country and overseas and now we live in Fort Wayne, Indiana.

[01:23] SHEILA HAWLEY: Okay. Indiana. Yeah. You said Fort Wayne. Okay.

[01:28] SUSAN BOLINGER: Fort Wayne is not common on people's expected lists of, you know, places to live, but it's a lovely place.

[01:35] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah. And I, and I've, you know, I've moved. I moved a ton when I was a kid. I just moved a lot, but always mostly in Massachusetts and in New England for sure, you know.

[01:50] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay.

[01:50] SHEILA HAWLEY: I've traveled a lot in Europe and England. I have a very close friend from England and she and I go back and forth and see each other all the time. But it just makes your world bigger. If you're always in one little spot and you're seeing the, you know, people who have this living the same way, you get out of touch with what's happening in the world.

[02:14] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well said. That's absolutely true. I think. Yeah.

[02:17] SHEILA HAWLEY: Better perspective, I think.

[02:19] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yes. I'm, I'm not sure if they're. If StoryCorps will do another push. Excuse me. To have more people do this online. You know, the, the, they have lots of in person conversations, but this online is still in somewhat of beta testing. So I'm hoping when they're done with their beta testing, we'll get put into their system again and maybe more people will sign up and you'll have more people who are, you know, have a different, far different perspective than mine because we're probably fairly close.

[02:54] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, I would, I, I was, I noticed you, you know, you, you labeled yourself Democrat and I thought, okay, check. And, and, but you know, I was thinking about it too, and I was thinking probably most people who are going to go for this kind of a thing are moderate people, you know, and open people. So I, you know, I wonder how many people that have a totally right point of view would be on here. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

[03:33] SUSAN BOLINGER: No, you know, I, I wonder too. And that's why I'm hoping when they get out of beta testing they'll do a bigger push. I, at the very beginning they had some real problems with their system. I got a very, I got a couple of very late messages. Sorry. You should have responded to these people that matched with me, selected me to talk to early on that I didn't know anything about. Never got any emails, never had any communication from them. And these people were definitely on the other side, you know, as far from my perspective. And I had, I tried to go back and at that time I didn't realize the help button existed. So I don't know.

[04:14] SHEILA HAWLEY: Anyway.

[04:14] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay, so to, to you. So have you always been independent?

[04:22] SHEILA HAWLEY: What do you mean?

[04:23] SUSAN BOLINGER: Like on your profile you listed it as no party affiliation slash independent, but you just said check when you saw that. I consider myself very much to be a Democrat, but also I'm thinking about independence a lot these days.

[04:38] SHEILA HAWLEY: Well, and, and I'm, I'm registered as an Independent, but, but I, I truly go more to a liberal side. I can, I, I'm moderate on some things and I'm hoping that I'm open, you know, to listen to others with their perspective because, you know, we're all living different lives. But basically I've been registered as an independent for a long time. But you know, I've, I have voted Republican, I voted Democrat.

[05:13] SUSAN BOLINGER: I'm, you know, me too.

[05:16] SHEILA HAWLEY: But I have to say and vote for Trump and I will not. Absolutely I will not.

[05:26] SUSAN BOLINGER: No, no. The only, the thing that makes me think these days about. I am, I was a Republican when I went to work in D.C. i may have told you this, I can't recall. Excuse me. And I was young and very idealistic. But I was also raised in the, I came up in the 80s and that was a time of big business. I thought that I was going to be a couple of different things and I came out of Washington very much a Democrat. I could not have had my positioning changed more once I felt like I saw the inner workings. So that I saw. And I had been working with a, not with a non profit higher ed association but we spent a lot of time up on the Hill. But, and that was right about the Newt Gingrich time.

[06:22] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh, I remember that.

[06:26] SUSAN BOLINGER: But you know, I'd be curious to ask this. Maybe you've had a different experience in Connecticut, whereas I am very Democratic and have become far more liberal. I think I mentioned last time that I really believe in public education and a good public education for everyone. I think that's so critical. Yeah.

[06:50] SHEILA HAWLEY: Well, you're talking to a retired public school educator. I was an elementary school teacher for many years.

[06:58] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, that's wonderful. What grades did you teach?

[07:01] SHEILA HAWLEY: I taught originally. When I first started, I taught kindergarten, and then actually even before that, I taught preschool because I started my own business. I had. I rented a space from a church and, and started preschool daycare. And, and I did that for like five years. When my son got old enough to be in, to be in public school, I, I wanted the same, the same schedule that he had, so I had a degree, so I got a job and I started kindergarten and then I went to fourth grade, and I pretty much stayed in fourth grade for years.

[07:52] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay.

[07:52] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[07:54] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, on my husband's side, there are a lot of educators and. All in public education. All in public schools. One of my nieces, our nieces is now. She's principal. She's a superintendent in New York and now Pennsylvania. And both my sister and brother, sister in law and brother in law are both teachers. Principals. Back to teachers. And then, you know, other things, but. And then, you know, others beyond that, but we, so we talk about education a lot.

[08:25] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[08:26] SUSAN BOLINGER: So here's a question that I would ask you. So just given how split the country is right now, what are your thoughts on. You know, I've wondered if we had a. More of an independent. I'm not saying I want a third party because I'm pretty far to the, to the left, but I'm just wondering. It doesn't seem like we can get anywhere with absolute bipolar party lines.

[08:52] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[08:52] SUSAN BOLINGER: I'm just wondering if, you know, I'm very. Economically, I'm very conservative, but I'm conservative and spend money smartly. Spend a lot of money on educating people. Spend a lot of money on infrastructure and things like that. Less money on big tax breaks for lots of people.

[09:12] SHEILA HAWLEY: Drives me nuts.

[09:14] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yeah, me too.

[09:14] SHEILA HAWLEY: Drives me nuts. You know, I was. I was listening to Bernie Sanders at one point and. And I, I just love that little guy. He. He has, he has a passion and a heart, you know?

[09:33] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yes, he does. I would agree.

[09:35] SHEILA HAWLEY: And, and, and I think. I don't know. I think what he says makes sense.

[09:41] SUSAN BOLINGER: I'm with you. I feel the same way for folks. I'm sorry if that's. I Don't know if that's me or.

[09:48] SHEILA HAWLEY: No, I think that was me. I thought I had. I shut it off on my phone, but I didn't on my computer because I was afraid that I wouldn't get any audio if I. Yeah.

[10:01] SUSAN BOLINGER: You know, the younger people in our life who tend to be very liberal, really like AOC because they feel like she sees things very clear eyed. She's clearly smart.

[10:12] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[10:13] SUSAN BOLINGER: She's kind.

[10:15] SHEILA HAWLEY: And I. She's. She's very idealistic and I think with time, maybe, maybe things will mellow out a little. I think sometimes she gets a little out there for me, but. But basically I think I love the passion that she shows and she's an intelligent woman.

[10:43] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yes, she is. And I would agree. She. She does seem young, but I also feel like, oh, you know, I learned so much from the young people of that age in my life. I learned so much from them. And I'll ask this. Until young people started. Okay, quick backup. I'm from Minneapolis originally and I have a lot of people in my family who've worked for General Mills and things like that. I never understood the concept of whole foods to use. Do you have whole food stores there?

[11:17] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes.

[11:17] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay. I never, ever understood the concept of whole foods and what was the issue with food until all the young people in my life started telling me about big egg and processed food. And I. It wasn't until the young people started talking about that that I thought. Missed that. Of course.

[11:40] SHEILA HAWLEY: Did you see, did you happen to watch the Netflix series? There was a. It was a mini series. It was four, four episodes. And it's. It's. You are what you eat, I think.

[11:56] SUSAN BOLINGER: Is that several years ago?

[11:57] SHEILA HAWLEY: No, it was just recently, I think.

[11:59] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, no, then I haven't. Let me write that down.

[12:02] SHEILA HAWLEY: You are what you eat. Don't. Don't watch it. You'll never eat anything again.

[12:08] SUSAN BOLINGER: I know. It's okay. Well, did you know what that term was? Whole food versus, you know, convenience foods and things?

[12:18] SHEILA HAWLEY: Well, I've done some work. Like after I retired from, from the classroom, I continued to do some work with kids and poetry and, and I could. I called it. What did I call it? I don't know, Bridges over time. And I connected seniors with fourth graders and we explored pork. And we. The theme for our first year was food. So we, we read a whole bunch of poems about food. We talked about structures of poems and blah, blah, blah. And then we wrote some and we put it in a book called. Let me see what it. What was it called? Food for the Pantry. And, and it was a book of poetry that kids and adults had written about food. We sold it and we gave all the money to the non profit Connecticut Food Share.

[13:37] SUSAN BOLINGER: That's wonderful.

[13:38] SHEILA HAWLEY: And yeah, it was really, really great. But they had a wonderful program where they talked about food deserts and they gave, they, we enacted things like, they gave kids tickets to buy things and to make it clear to them. Because the community that I did this in is more or less a, you know, a privileged kind of community. I mean, they're not, they're not like, they're not like down in, what do you call it? They're not like really the rich things down in Connecticut on the shore. But, but they're, they're middle class, upper middle to upper middle class, you know, and so they, they just, they didn't understand about, about food deserts and, and how, you know, if you don't have a car, you go to a convenience store and you Pay, you know, $30 for a banana, you know, and just stuff like that. And that, that was really eye opening. And after watching this Netflix thing, I mean, I've, I've really. I don't eat processed foods anymore. I don't eat meat. I don't eat chicken. I'm not vegan, but I eat a lot of fish and mostly fresh foods. But, you know, sad. But it's a privilege to do that.

[15:11] SUSAN BOLINGER: That is definitely true. Well, I too am mostly vegetarian. I really don't, I'm not vegan. I don't, I don't. Yeah, I have a meat eating husband and I. While he conceives of the idea of not eating meat, if I have beans too many times, he says, oh, please. Doesn't matter. I disguise them. He'll say, are there beans or kale in here?

[15:36] SHEILA HAWLEY: I understand that because a lot of. Sometimes I go, I just don't even want to eat because it's boring and I don't want to eat the meat. But, but I miss the variety and I'm not and never have been a great cook.

[15:53] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay.

[15:54] SHEILA HAWLEY: And, and I've, I've explored it more and I've gotten better and sometimes I enjoy doing it, but sometimes I just go, I'm sorry, I'm having cereal for supper. Or. Right, a brownie.

[16:12] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, I'm unfortunately caught in a loop where I think I'm on my eighth illness in a row. In the 90s, I went to Haiti and I, I got some sort of a virus there and my health totally. And this is my third round with COVID Oh, My gosh. You said you haven't had it yet, right? That's amazing to me. I.

[16:35] SHEILA HAWLEY: You know what? I can't. When they say like 90% of the people in the world have had it, I think it's such a huge number, and I. And I think to myself, I must have been one of those people who had it but didn't realize I had it, you know, because I'm not that lucky.

[16:52] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay, well, yeah, it could be. Well, in which case that's fantastic because maybe you have some tolerance to it now.

[16:58] SHEILA HAWLEY: And, you know, I also. I also do not get. I don't often get colds or, or the flu or. Or anything like that. I think part of it, you know, when you're a teacher and you first start teaching, you get everything and then. And then. I mean, when I. When I retired, I had 180 days of sick days.

[17:27] SUSAN BOLINGER: Wow. Never sick.

[17:30] SHEILA HAWLEY: Sadly, I was hardly ever, you know, and sadly, they. They didn't give you your sick days. You know, if you didn't take them, you were. You. You just lost them.

[17:42] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, that's terrible. That's terrible.

[17:45] SHEILA HAWLEY: That was a whole year's worth.

[17:48] SUSAN BOLINGER: That, that shouldn't be, but, boy, that's too bad. That's too bad. I hope that's changed now. I wonder.

[17:55] SHEILA HAWLEY: I don't know. I don't think it has. I don't think it has. And it's weird because it's an incentive to call in sick.

[18:05] SUSAN BOLINGER: Right.

[18:06] SHEILA HAWLEY: You know, but when a teacher calls in sick, you do all the work anyway, you know, you have to prepare all the lessons and have everything ready to go in your classroom if you're not there, you know, so whether you're there or not, you're. You're still doing all the work and, and the substitute teacher depends on your lesson plans, I suppose. So it's more. It's more of a pain to. To do it and explain all that in writing to somebody else than to go in and, you know, take a. Take a couple of aspirins or cold medicine for your cold, you know.

[18:52] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yeah. There's a big hook to playing hooky, I guess, is what. Yes.

[18:55] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

[18:57] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay. All right. Hey, so back to poetry. I had forgotten that in your. In your bio, do you have a favorite poet? And what do you like about. Or give me. Give me one of your top poets. How about that?

[19:18] SHEILA HAWLEY: Mary Oliver.

[19:19] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, yeah, all the way. Yeah, all the way.

[19:22] SHEILA HAWLEY: She's. I. I'd say she's my favorite. I Love. What's his name? Billy. Billy Collins. I, I like him.

[19:33] SUSAN BOLINGER: That is.

[19:34] SHEILA HAWLEY: He, he's written some, some just thought provoking and, and, and funny.

[19:42] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, I do. Does he have longer hair?

[19:45] SHEILA HAWLEY: No.

[19:45] SUSAN BOLINGER: Shoulder length?

[19:47] SHEILA HAWLEY: No.

[19:47] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay, then I'm. I'll have to look him up. Okay. Do you have a favorite Mary Oliver? So many. Or one that comes back to you.

[20:00] SHEILA HAWLEY: I love, you know, I love the, the fact that she, she writes about nature and that, that's. And there's something very gentle about, very gentle and very deep about her poetry.

[20:16] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yes. Do you know the, the poem Mysteries? Yes. Her poem Mysteries? Yes. Oh, look that up.

[20:26] SHEILA HAWLEY: I will, I will.

[20:29] SUSAN BOLINGER: It's lovely.

[20:31] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, she's, she's really something. I, I really enjoyed her, her stuff. The other one is Naomi Shihab Nye.

[20:42] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, I know who she is because of On Being. Have you ever been a Krista Tippet person?

[20:48] SHEILA HAWLEY: A what?

[20:49] SUSAN BOLINGER: Krista Tippett used to have a show on npr. At first it was called Speaking of Faith and then it changed to On Being. And, and I don't know if she's still doing new podcasts or things now, but she, you may like her. And she's interviewed and done all kinds of extraordinary work. Oh, she's got a background in seminary. She's super educated. She's seminarian from, you know, years ago. She was a diplomat in Berlin with. Before the wall came down.

[21:22] SHEILA HAWLEY: Wow.

[21:23] SUSAN BOLINGER: All kinds of things. And she has a whole huge body of work on being.org, i think or maybe it's dot com these days, I can't recall. And she.

[21:36] SHEILA HAWLEY: Sorry, you have a dog?

[21:40] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yes, we do. There, she's down there. She's spotted like a little giraffe and she's eagerly crying for five o'clock food. But she spotted somebody out or we can't see anyone out the back of our house, but she just spotted someone walking by.

[21:57] SHEILA HAWLEY: So my sister, my sister's little dog is like that. It's a little long haired dachshund and honest to God that, you know, a leaf falls from the tree and that dog drives me nuts.

[22:12] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, she's rather selective. She's pretty old, she's filled with lots of cancer. But she was just noticing. I've never seen that person walking by before. And we have a little cul de sac, so it must be someone visiting one of their parents or who knows, but anyway, and he was wearing shorts, flip flops and it's cold, so I was surprised. She may have been too. But mostly she's crying for food. Okay, how did you Come. What is. What does po. Do you write poetry, too? You. You must.

[22:51] SHEILA HAWLEY: I wrote. I wrote a book of poetry, but it's children's poetry. That's. That's the one that I share. I've written. I've. You know, I've written a few. I'm. I'm more of. I don't know. I. I enjoy. I enjoy it, but I'm very intimidated by it in the same way. I know what I like, but I would no way say that I am particularly well versed, knowing a lot of poets or, you know, I just. I just know what I like.

[23:29] SUSAN BOLINGER: That's wonderful. And the thing is, one does not. I've realized one does not have to be particularly well versed in all things they're interested in. You just have to follow your passions and you're sharing it with kids and some elderly folks. I'm so impressed by that. What do you think that the kids and the folks who were doing that with the kids for your food. For what you call it. For food for.

[23:56] SHEILA HAWLEY: What did I call it? They. The. The adults really enjoyed the program. I ran it. I ran it in the school for about eight years, and then after I. I retired, I did it for another four years. But then once. Once the pandemic hit, I. I kind of fizzled out and. And pretty much said I was done. Because then I got. I started getting into storytelling. And you know what? Now that I have your email address, I can send you a link to see the story that I won. The.

[24:45] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, I would love that. Yeah, I would love that. That is amazing. I know that. So what I know of how you're supposed to craft a story is you get there. You don't start like, you know, James Mishner, like years before that story. You get right into the story. Right?

[25:08] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes. You start as close to the end as you can.

[25:11] SUSAN BOLINGER: As close to the.

[25:12] SHEILA HAWLEY: Okay.

[25:13] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, I see. That's a good way to put it. Time frame wise, right?

[25:16] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, yeah. You start as close to the end and you start with a. A compelling lead. You know, something pulls somebody in and load it with some surprise. And hopefully, even if it's a serious story, a little humor.

[25:37] SUSAN BOLINGER: Sure.

[25:38] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[25:39] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, it's good if you can. Even in a serious something. You know, what good is life if everything is we can't find some humor and things.

[25:49] SHEILA HAWLEY: I know, I know. You know, my sister Taryn wrote a book called Inappropriate Laughter. And it is about. It is about the loss of our mother. And. And it was. God, that was the wildest six weeks that Was just crazy because we lost my mother, my brother in law and my nephew all within six weeks.

[26:16] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, Sheila, how long ago was this?

[26:20] SHEILA HAWLEY: Let me see. It was right before, right before the pandemic. So about five years ago maybe. Okay. And my sister Taryn wrote a book about it. And honest to God, I can't say enough good things about it. She, she handled it so beautifully. There was such a balance of heart and humor and, and, and truth through it and, and, and, and it all took place. It all took place when we were, when we were holding space for my mother who was passing away and took, you know, and we kept saying it's going to be soon. So everybody rushed there and, and, and we were all there and there's seven. So, you know, there are lots of people and it, it was just. She did such a fabulous job. But what I loved about it is that she was able to balance it all so well with humor. I mean, even though it was, you know, a loss, such a great loss, but it, the way she handled it was just gorgeous.

[27:42] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, what? That's so beautiful. I bet it was cathartic for her to write it.

[27:47] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes, I'm. I'm sure. Why cathartic? For me to read it.

[27:51] SUSAN BOLINGER: Absolutely.

[27:52] SHEILA HAWLEY: You know. Yeah.

[27:53] SUSAN BOLINGER: So on your profile, you, you also have. I had two lost a loved one. Is that your mom? And your, your mom and your nephew. And who was the third person?

[28:04] SHEILA HAWLEY: My brother in law.

[28:05] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, her husband.

[28:08] SHEILA HAWLEY: My sister's husband. Not her, my, my oldest sister.

[28:12] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay.

[28:13] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah. We have five girls, two boys.

[28:16] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh my goodness. Hang on a second, let me correct. Course correct. Here, Chumo.

[28:22] SHEILA HAWLEY: Come here, honey. Come on.

[28:26] SUSAN BOLINGER: I would show you my dog, but with all the illness, you'll probably catch a sight of a giant hairball. It. I have not. It has been really rough. I can't be around all the young people. I have been and that's when I get something new. Some other cold or not a cold. It worse than that. So.

[28:46] SHEILA HAWLEY: And so you think you picked it up, you know, just in Haiti?

[28:52] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Years ago 95, I was in Haiti and I got a. A virus that changed my entire constitution. It changed everything. And so since, since then I've gotten sick a lot more. But when I got Covid the first time, it really wasn't that bad. It was bad, but it wasn't. No, no chance. I would have gone to the hospital and certainly wasn't close to dying. But then I had long Covid and it wasn't. I got it early in 2020 when we thought it was just new in New York and Washington state. Remember that? When it was in the nursing home in Washington state.

[29:33] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh, right, right.

[29:35] SUSAN BOLINGER: And I'd been traveling, and I. You know, there were no tests, no doctors really knew how to. But, you know, they. They guessed I probably had it. But then it was the long Covid afterwards, which I still have my. Nothing's the same. I navigate the world by. I always know directionally where I am. That's gone. I navigate the world through my nose. It's gone. I can't smell hardly anything.

[30:06] SHEILA HAWLEY: That affects your appetite, too?

[30:09] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, unfortunately, yeah. I had lost a lot. I'd been thin all my life, and then, you know, just complications in life and things. Years ago, I started eating more. You know, it's nice to eat food, and that soothes you. Right. And I was. Over the years, I put on some weight, and then before COVID I. I had lost 45 pounds and was feeling really good. Eating nothing processed, eating, you know, no meat, only organic. And really, I felt better than I have in a long time. And then I got Covid, but. And then with just being sick so much, and then we moved here at the tail end of COVID and just cleaning our house and getting ready to move and put the house up for sale. It has been a downward trend since then, and I hate to admit it, I. You know, when I don't have the. It's a lot of work to chop all the vegetables and things that you chop to eat the way that we're talking about. We want.

[31:11] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes, exactly.

[31:14] SUSAN BOLINGER: And I just have not. And unfortunately, I. When we moved my mom and dad from Arizona into our house here because we thought my mom was having some problems. And once they got here, we realized, one, they cannot live in our house, and two, love them, but no. 2, they were both much worse off than we expected. And it's. It's been like even today, as sick as I am. My mom had a filing cabin emergency, if you could imagine. She needed a filing cabinet today, which is replacement ridiculous. She'll never touch it, won't use it. She has undiagnosed but absolutely, absolutely Alzheimer's.

[32:01] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh.

[32:03] SUSAN BOLINGER: And she's a nurse, and she won't go to the doctor because she doesn't want any kind of. So just trying to navigate all of that. It. And that's.

[32:15] SHEILA HAWLEY: That's really tough.

[32:17] SUSAN BOLINGER: It is. And so I found. I found. Oh, shoot. Darn it. Over all this illness, I have let all that creepy food. I never. I. I gave up for so long and Felt so good in my life.

[32:30] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[32:31] SUSAN BOLINGER: All the weight came back. Yeah. So anyway, now you know. Have you ever heard the phrase, what, you don't transform, you transfer?

[32:43] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh, no, that's in. Interesting, huh? That is a very interesting phrase.

[32:54] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, I just. I've lived away from family for so long. We moved from my husband's jobs all over and my jobs before that. And now when you're back with family. I love my family. I have a great family. So does he. But we're all people and we're all weird. Everybody's. Every human in the. In the world has stuff they have never dealt with. And now all of a sudden, to come home and be around family. Boy, can I see family patterns. You know, Fine, fine. You know, nothing terrible. Happy, you know?

[33:29] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[33:31] SUSAN BOLINGER: So I just. I'm thinking so much now as. As I'm spending these last. I don't know how long my parents will have, but with my mom, you know, what's left, right? What. What, did she not transfer that transformed, that she's transferred or what is condensed in her now in this personality that she has now. And it's. It's tough, I gotta tell you. And junk food seems really good right now.

[34:04] SHEILA HAWLEY: I. I can't blame you. I have. I have a sweet tooth. I try. I try not to bring anything into the house, but every once in a while I gotta get those brownies or that popcorn or that ice cream. I hear you.

[34:21] SUSAN BOLINGER: That's right. Yeah, that happens. I know. I hear you too. Wait. Okay, so I'm looking. All right, so I'm looking at your. See, so you were the middle of. Oh, a middle kid. All right, so I'm a youngest kid.

[34:35] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh.

[34:36] SUSAN BOLINGER: How old is your. How old is your son right now?

[34:41] SHEILA HAWLEY: 43.

[34:42] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay. Live near you?

[34:45] SHEILA HAWLEY: No, he lives in Vegas.

[34:47] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, wow.

[34:48] SHEILA HAWLEY: Well, that. Go see him at the end of the month. I'm really excited. I'm gonna. I. I haven't been out there. He comes. He comes home once a year, which isn't enough. I have only one son, and it's just not enough. So I'm gonna. He was here in December, but I'm gonna go out and see him at the end of March. And my sister. My older sister is going. Going with me, so.

[35:14] SUSAN BOLINGER: Good.

[35:15] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah. So we're gonna have a nice time for a few days.

[35:20] SUSAN BOLINGER: Do you do the strip or do you just do things?

[35:24] SHEILA HAWLEY: I'm not a big sides.

[35:25] SUSAN BOLINGER: There are two. Definitely two sides to Vegas.

[35:28] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[35:29] SUSAN BOLINGER: And then there's all that.

[35:30] SHEILA HAWLEY: Well, I'm. I'm. I'M not big on, on gambling and, and you know, I'm not, I'm, I'm not a big drinker. I'm a social drinker. I'll have glass of wine or, you know, a beer with pizza or something like that. But, you know, but I wouldn't mind going to, you know, a show or, you know, I, I, I. We haven't really made many plans, although I did see that. And this is so hokey. They have a gondola ride at the Venetian.

[36:07] SUSAN BOLINGER: Why not?

[36:09] SHEILA HAWLEY: And, and I thought, okay, I'll do that, I'll do that. And, and I'd love to have brunch at the Botanical Gardens at the Bellagio.

[36:20] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, yeah, I'd like to be done.

[36:23] SHEILA HAWLEY: Have you been to Vegas? Yeah, I've only been once. No, twice. I've been twice.

[36:29] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yeah, I've only been twice too. I'm not a gambler, not a big drinker, but. Hey, Tiny here. Can you see her?

[36:42] SHEILA HAWLEY: Part of her. She just left. Hang on one second.

[36:50] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay. Yeah, I have been there. Once. There was some conference. I had to go to there. And another time we just took a trip with some friends and it was fun and we did enjoy. I think. I can't remember who we saw, but it was interest. This was decades ago now. It was interesting and fun. Restaurants were great. Bellagio was something.

[37:14] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I saw the Blue Man Group there when I went.

[37:18] SUSAN BOLINGER: Wow.

[37:19] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, that was, that was lots of fun. That was really fun.

[37:23] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, do you have, do you have grandkids?

[37:28] SHEILA HAWLEY: No, no. He, he, he has not married. He, he has been dating and has been in a relationship with this woman for, gosh, at least, at least 10 years. And I don't understand it because he lives in Vegas and she lives in. Where does she live? Louisiana. Or, and, but two states over from where he is, so they only see each other a few times a year. But, but when he's here, she's constantly texting him and, and they, they video chat every night. And so I go, okay, whatever. I don't, I don't, I don't get how things work anymore.

[38:31] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, let's see. I, oh, let me check my time. Okay, we have 11 minutes. Let's see. I wanted to just see were there other. They have a list of questions that I can't find it. I don't see them on my visit or text. Hang on. I'm just, I'm still with you. Can you hear me?

[38:48] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yep.

[38:49] SUSAN BOLINGER: See if I can find them on our. Nope, they've moved its stuff Around. Oh, we don't have kids. Both Randy and I had been married before and we had two. We had, yeah, divorced. And by the time we found each other, who knows whether we would have been able to have kids or not. So we've been married 25 years now and. Hilarious. He's so funny. I lived in Minneapolis and he lived in New York when we first married. Well, not when we first married, when we first met. So we dated long distance the whole time. And then I moved to New York to marry him and I traded six months in Rome to move here to Fort Wayne.

[39:45] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh my gosh.

[39:47] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, we've moved. We both moved a lot before we married and then we've moved for his job since. We've been married so many times. And so this last move was mine and I felt compelled to live here with some family. I just felt called to do so and so. Yeah, but he's, he's hilarious. He was a stand up comic part of the time to make money when he was going through college.

[40:15] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh, no kidding. Oh that's great.

[40:17] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh yeah, he's funny. So you know when, when you were talking about your sister writing the book after your mom had passed.

[40:25] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah.

[40:27] SUSAN BOLINGER: My father in law was also just a scream and he had been, he had, he had, he'd expected he was going to be a university professor and he felt called to ministry and he tried to shake it and it just stuck with him. So he was a minister for 66 years. But yeah, he had a PhD in child psychology and you know, aside from his seminary and degrees and such, but he, he used a lot of humor in his preaching. And the funny thing is, so my mother in law died first and then about five years later he died. And when he was in hospice, ever the minister, he's very organized and he had a list of all the things to pack that he was going to pack for hospice and I kid you not, the first thing on his list was a bible and study materials because he thought there might be some family members of other patients who, who might find solace in having some sort of Bible study or something. And Randy had to say, dad, okay, it's, you're done now. You've, you've answered your call for 66 years. Now you're the patient, now you're the one that gets to be ministered to not, you know, not to convert anybody. He wasn't that kind of a minister just for solace. When he was dying he was non communicative for a while and, but he wasn't Letting go yet. Excuse me for the coughing and a really good. My sister in law and I were in the room and we sing like Mutt and Jeff. I'm a terrible alto, make up all my own notes and she's a terrible soprano and makes a ball of her own notes But a really good friend of ours from Minnesota had just died and he was. He'd been a B29 pilot and all of his family was with him and the family sung him out with hymns. I know and. And because my father in law loved music and hymns so much, I said, karen, let's sing to Zane. Well, so we tried. I'm going to remind you that I said he had been uncommunicative, immobile for a few days. We started singing and I kid you not, let me make sure I get this on camera. He puts up a finger and he goes no.

[43:14] SHEILA HAWLEY: That'S funny. That's hilarious.

[43:17] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh my gosh, we have had. So when you were talking about your sister writing this book, Karen and I just lost it when he did that. But that was one, I think about how much energy he spent but two, he has the right to say good Lord, stop.

[43:37] SHEILA HAWLEY: That is. That is. That's a great story.

[43:40] SUSAN BOLINGER: Oh, we left. So Randy quipped that that's the funniest thing his dad never said.

[43:47] SHEILA HAWLEY: That'S. That's a finger. I hope you write that down for generations to come.

[43:55] SUSAN BOLINGER: Well, we probably should, but we're pretty bad at that. Yeah. So wait does your. I think you're. Do you. Does your. Oh, you're spiritual but not religious. Same here. How do you say more about that if you're willing?

[44:15] SHEILA HAWLEY: Oh, I. I was brought up Catholic.

[44:17] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay. I wondered. I almost asked.

[44:20] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah. Yeah. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. But it was like, you know, my, my mom and dad, even though, I mean we got our first communion and I was confirmed and I went and. And I remember in high school that I did go to church on Sundays in high school but it. But the only reason I went is because my friends were going in. It was a social activity and you know, we'd. We'd arrive late and we. When they started getting out the thing. We have five minutes left. Yeah.

[45:01] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yeah.

[45:02] SHEILA HAWLEY: I have a thing up. Stop. It says visit your scheduling tech space. Does you. Do you have that too?

[45:08] SUSAN BOLINGER: I do. And so you can click on that. So that's usually for if we needed to communicate something or you didn't show up and I was going back to check the time. Yeah, things like that.

[45:22] SHEILA HAWLEY: It says having pull at the end too with A question mark, but I'm, Go ahead. But, but, yeah, but, you know, we, we just, it just never really spoke to me in, in, in when I see what's going on today with evangelicals and all that. And, and I have, I have a friend that moved from Connecticut. She was a teacher colleague and she moved out to Texas. And she posts stuff on Facebook that, you know, like, Lord Jesus is going to save you, and, you know, hallelujah and all that. And I, I just, I don't feel it. I just, it, it is, it is something that I just cannot understand.

[46:10] SUSAN BOLINGER: I'm with you.

[46:11] SHEILA HAWLEY: And, and, and also, you know, with all, oh, Trump is our savior. He's going, you know, he's, he's a man of God.

[46:26] SUSAN BOLINGER: No, no.

[46:30] SHEILA HAWLEY: I, I, it's so hard for me to understand that. But that, that's, that's another thing. But, you know, spiritualism, you know, and I, I also feel like there have been times when I have felt like, like after my father died, I had a dream and, and he appeared to me in the stream, and he was ethereal and white light and, and, and happy. And he didn't say anything. And I just said, oh, dad, thank you, thank you for coming to see me. And when I got through, I, I thought, you know, I thought, okay, that was a dream. And then I went. But maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was more than a dream. And I've had, I've, I've had some, I've gone to a medium a couple times and she, you know, she said things that made me go, how, how do you know that? You know, so, yeah, and you, you're, you're the same spiritual.

[47:41] SUSAN BOLINGER: But, well, I had my, my maternal, we got 2:17 left. My maternal grandfather was definitely a mystic. And so I was open. I was, I think I just am by birth. But it didn't hurt that he was. And I left the Catholic Church when I was 12, proclaiming to my parents that I didn't, I couldn't find Jesus there, but I was going out to find him. You know, my parents, the, everybody, I'm the only one who wasn't confirmed. I, you know, I didn't go to parochial school, but I think that evangelicalism is, in my viewpoint, counter to the entirety of the gospel, which to me is love people.

[48:28] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yeah, yeah, yes. Accept people.

[48:32] SUSAN BOLINGER: Absolutely right. One of. We do, we do. We're very active in two churches here, but they are big, wide open, accepting churches. But one of our pastors said the other day that anytime you draw a line like, who's in, who's out. She said, you can guarantee Jesus is on the other side of it. And I just love that. Yeah. You know, to the medium. I've never been to one myself, but I have had things happen to me, Sheila, that, you know, I was 20 something, in my house in Minneapolis, 7:14 in the morning, coffee cup up halfway up to my mouth, and I thought, oh, Grandma B just died.

[49:15] SHEILA HAWLEY: I'm sorry, we're almost out of time.

[49:18] SUSAN BOLINGER: Yes, I know it. Okay, so you've got my email address.

[49:21] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes, and I will. I will email you. This was wonderful. Thank you so much.

[49:25] SUSAN BOLINGER: I loved it too. And thank you. And if you'd like suggest another time, I would love personally to talk to you again. Maybe this time I'll take a little bit of time to get a little healthier, but. Yeah, it has been lovely talking to you. I will look forward to watching your. Your story.

[49:45] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes, my story.

[49:47] SUSAN BOLINGER: Moth.

[49:48] SHEILA HAWLEY: Yes, my moth story. It would love to talk to you and I hope you get better soon.

[49:54] SUSAN BOLINGER: Thank you, Sheila. You too. All right, have a great night and have fun with the ukuleles.

[49:58] SHEILA HAWLEY: Thanks.

[49:59] SUSAN BOLINGER: Okay, I think that's it.