Donna Johnson and Chris Krieger

[00:01] DONNA JOHNSON: All right. Okay, I've got it recording on my end.

[00:09] CHRIS KRIEGER: I am too.

[00:11] DONNA JOHNSON: Okay. All right, let's see. Let me see if I can find. Where's your bio?

[00:21] CHRIS KRIEGER: It should be right above the screen, I think.

[00:30] DONNA JOHNSON: Okay, I think I see it starts with quirky. Well read World traveling.

[00:36] CHRIS KRIEGER: That's me.

[00:37] DONNA JOHNSON: All right. All right. Okay. Yeah, I'll go first if you want.

[00:46] CHRIS KRIEGER: Sure, that'd be fine. Either way.

[00:48] DONNA JOHNSON: Okay. All right. My name is Donna and I am here with my one small step partner, partner Chris. Chris is quirky, well read, world traveling, divorced, father of one daughter, comfortable in the wood, shop in the woods, library, kitchen, is familiar with SPSS, Excel, Word, ArcGIS, but just got first smartphone a year ago. Sometimes profanity is still involved. Reads a lot. TV only linked to a DVD player for 10 plus years and convinced grandchildren will rightly curse us for their Mad Max like world if we don't change soon.

[01:33] CHRIS KRIEGER: That's me. Okay. I'm Chris and I'm here with my one small step conversation partner with Donna, and she's from Ruston, Louisiana. I'm from Glencoe, Oklahoma. Her interests are in innovation, higher education and adult dating. She's a southern lady with conservative views and Christian based principles. Almost paradoxically, she's a single doctor mom. She's a first generation college graduate who completed a doctoral degree by the age of 33 while raising two kids. I have recently relocated to a small town in Louisiana where both of my kids attend the university. I work for, Louisiana Tech University. I've worked through countless competing priorities to reach this stage of motherhood and profession. Regrettably, much of this has kept me single. I describe myself as a parent, active in my community, outgoing religious or spiritual and creative life events. Or moved to a new community and got divorced. Had a breakup. Okay, awesome.

[02:49] DONNA JOHNSON: All right, well, why didn't you want to participate in the one small step conversation?

[02:56] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, I will say I have listened to NPR since I was probably 10 or 11 years old. So I'm familiar with a lot of their programs and the local programs vary. I've traveled a lot, so. But I'm just baffled by the utter. It's beyond reluctance. It's just the abject refusal of people to have a conversation based on facts, on empirical evidence, and the utter willingness to rush pell melt things because a school of thought or label or an agenda tells them to think that way and no fact seems to sway them. And I'm just baffled by that approach to making important decisions or any kind decision, frankly. So I thought this might be an interesting way to find out, help people get to where they are. So how about you?

[04:06] DONNA JOHNSON: So I initially started my adventure with one small step. It's a personal goal each year to publish something, produce some type of medium. And I found this as an outlet to start making connections and having relevant conversations on topics that I found interesting. And because I had positive experiences with the first two, I'm continuing to kind of explore more conversations through here. So it's kind of a way for me to broaden my horizons when it comes to how I express myself with those that maybe aren't within my immediate circle. And, and two, it. I really enjoy meeting and talking with people who are outside of my echo chamber. If you would so. So not dissimilar from you. I. Sometimes for me it's easier to have those less emotionally steeped types of conversations with people that I don't know because there is no pre existing condition around which we frame that conversation. So it's almost like blank slate. You can talk. You know, the level playing field where your ideas get to have space and so do theirs.

[05:32] CHRIS KRIEGER: Sure, that's. I'm curious, what do you, what is your doctorate in?

[05:37] DONNA JOHNSON: Higher education? Administration.

[05:40] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay. And then do you teach at the Department of Education at Louisiana Tech or.

[05:45] DONNA JOHNSON: I did in previous roles. I had a teaching load. At present, the administrative duties have kept me from being in the classroom for a few years. Sure, yeah.

[05:57] CHRIS KRIEGER: Do you miss the classroom? Are you glad to be where you're at?

[06:01] DONNA JOHNSON: Sometimes. Sometimes. Because that too was a platform to facilitate open conversations and teach the students how to have that positive discourse. And, and the content that I would get to teach a lot of time was in the area of social science, which can bring some opinions about different topics. And so being able to facilitate an environment where it was positive exchanges. I really enjoyed that. Prior to higher ed, I was a high school English teacher. So, you know, whenever you teach literature, you also get to explore that human condition and sociological and psychological principles and, and yeah, I've always really enjoyed that.

[06:49] CHRIS KRIEGER: So you were teaching and a single mom and going to night school, I guess, to get your, your postgraduate degrees.

[06:58] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah.

[06:58] CHRIS KRIEGER: So when did you sleep?

[07:01] DONNA JOHNSON: Very little. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[07:05] CHRIS KRIEGER: I really. Your story resonated with me because both of my parents were educators. My dad's a retired science teacher, but he used to teach industrial arts in Ohio. And my mom, you know, they told her she couldn't study for the lsat. She said oh yeah. And she did. And she did well enough to get a four year ride. You know, she but she had to teach nine and take nine the whole time. And so then we moved out here to Oklahoma and then I moved away for a long time and then I came back and met my daughter's mother and then I stayed to be my daughter's dad and now I'm staying to be a son. So I'm here in a place that I don't, I've never really loved. You know, it's, I like certain things about it, but it's never really felt like home. So. But I'm here until my dad doesn't need me anymore. And that, that's just how that goes. So.

[08:08] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah. Well, something that interested me about your, your profile, your story, when I saw it, is that. Yes, Oklahoma. So I lived in Wichita Falls, Texas for a while, which is not far from the Oklahoma border, so familiar with that region. But the way you're described, the, your style of living, how it almost seems off grid, yet you are proficient at many technology applications. So how did those two kind of coalesce to create the lifestyle that you have there?

[08:47] CHRIS KRIEGER: You know, I am a geeky, nerdy guy. I just, over time I've learned to embrace that. I've always been a reader and I skipped a couple grades in high school and. But it was, left me really socially, you know, already being really nerdy. That just pushed me way more out there into the nerd zone. And so college sucked really and I dropped out and I partied and I worked. That's where I got my acceptance and I went in the army, came back completely different, a lot more grown up, self confident. And I, I finally had this overarching purpose. I wanted to become a history professor. I was really excited by that. But a cool summer job. I said after the army I said I'll never be bored again. And that has one promise I have kept. And so I went to Maine and planted trees and I went backpacking after driving a grain truck. And that backpacking trip changed my life because I did nine days in the Mount Zirka Wilderness area. I fell in love with the mountains and I got a job in Idaho and the Idaho Panhandle National Forest. And I just kept coming back. And then I was finally actually accepted into two different programs. I had graduated and I was pretty excited, but I actually, because I got a minor in geography and I was accepted. I was recruited into history and geography both. But I got a chance to work longer that season up in the mountains. I was getting paid to hike and ride horses in the mountains with people I liked and so I've always loved that sort of environment. And I react to the idea of, you know, when I'm a carpenter, frame carpenter, I do something around the house. I see that material product that result from whatever I did that day. That's refreshing. But I love to write, I love language. And so I've always hung out on campuses when you're doing road trips, you know, going to college towns is a great way to, to learn more about a state, about a region. And so I actually was going to go get a master's and I dropped out to be a dad. And then I started again later on and I completed everything, but, but finish writing and defend my thesis. I, I actually wrote it and I didn't like it, so I tossed it. And then I had a very, I had a series of personal crises I didn't dealt with, deal with very well. And so I timed out my studies and now I'm looking for that overarching purpose. I have no idea. Because nobody wants somebody who can pack mules and carry supplies in the mountains. And fewer people read anymore. You know, the average American vocabulary is what, 30, 30% less than it was in 1940. So all the things I love are, are just getting less and less popular. I'm not sure what to do next.

[11:55] DONNA JOHNSON: Well, that's interesting that you say that. You know, working in education, I can definitely see, and I've only been in education for about 20 years, but through that time the difference in students is obvious. So what you're talking about, the decline in interest and things that were formerly prevalent, I can definitely see that among the students.

[12:24] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah. It's a weird time that we're in. There's so many different things that are changing, and I'm very curious how it's all going to work out. I think, I think we have to make a lot of big changes at every level of society, and I'm just not sure we're going to do that in time. Malthus may have been a jerk and an elitist snob, but he was right, I think, when he talked about the four big limits on populations, that they'll always grow as much as they possibly can and exceed their carrying capacity. And then, you know, famine or disease or war or intra or species competition will reduce their numbers drastically or possibly come extinct.

[13:15] DONNA JOHNSON: Right.

[13:17] CHRIS KRIEGER: You know, that seems to be where we're going. I don't know.

[13:21] DONNA JOHNSON: Right. What are we? Between 7 and 8 billion globally. That's a heavy load of humans on one planet.

[13:31] CHRIS KRIEGER: When I was a carpenter at osu, I Used to work in the classrooms at Oklahoma State in the middle of the state. And I would write down these four fun facts. And, you know, one was, you know, the basic idea is that everything on this planet is the direct or indirect result of solar energy. You know, even the gas we have is from, you know, plants that are compressed and for a couple million years. But the solar energy the Earth gets is fairly, fairly consistent over time. I mean, it has fluctuated, but. But everything on this earth is tied to that. And we have a macroeconomic model that says if you're not. If you're not growing, you're dying, you're in decline. And, you know, unlimited growth is. Is not possible. And so we have a system that doesn't allow us to make the right decisions. And so that's hard. You know, like, when I remodel, I cannot afford to recycle lumber. There is no money in it. I can't. I cannot do that. And, And I even have to, like, I always coat my inside corners. It's a quality way to do inside corner joints on my trim. And. But I have to bid against people who don't and have to do that for clients who don't know the difference. And it all looks good, you know, when you collect the paycheck. But I want it to look good five years from now. I want somebody to come to your house and say, hey, who did that work? You know, and that's my advertising. And so we have a system that doesn't let us make the right decision that so many levels and. But we're so enamored of capitalism that I, you know, I think we're going to have to adjust it quite a bit. And. But then that smacks of socialism and all these things. So I don't know. What do you think about all this I've been blathering on? So.

[15:30] DONNA JOHNSON: No, no, no. There are several things that interested me. You know, talking about coding the corners. It's quality of work. You don't cut corners, you coat them. So I think you're right. We've been sacrificing quality for quantity. And that's our con. And I say our speaking from the American, the typical American perspective. That's our consumeristic mindset. My partner and I have ventured out on this study recently related to garbage and trash. And then. So one of the things that you said is you can't afford to recycle the lumber from your projects. We have some international students from Naples, Italy, that we've done in exchange with for a couple of years. And last summer they came and visited Ruston, Louisiana. It was a group of about five of them, two professors, three DOC students, and our exchange is all about circular economy. I also spent a little bit of time in Italy the past two summers, not doing intense study, but rather cultural appreciation and understanding. So Italy is much smaller land wise than the US Their resources therefore are smaller in supply. So when those researchers came to Reston last year, in Louisiana, you're a woods guy. You know, we've got trees upon trees everywhere. Wood and wood products is one of our biggest exports out of the state. As a matter of fact, my daughter is a forestry major at Louisiana Tech. So when they arrived it was just green and lush. And there are areas in Italy that have, you know, wooded areas, but not like it is here in Louisiana. And so they came in and they got to see how our wooden wood product industry functions. And in their view, it's very wasteful. And they described to me one particular doctoral research student how one of her projects in Italy was to create, create a database of almost like architectural salvage pieces like the lumber, whenever you've redone projects and almost like you could log a two by six and it is there for bid or for sale for reuse. So in our American mindset and in the consumer ways of doing things in the US it's not profitable to repurpose things that have high value. And in some cases it's not profitable to do above and beyond quality work. So yeah, I, I think you're, you're at, my view aligns with what you're expressing there and back to the, the garbage and the trash endeavor that my partner and I've kind of been looking into doing a lot of reading, but it relates to that consumeristic mindset. In our research, we've found that the number one place that, that the first place that can tell if there is about to be a recession are the landfills. They see a decrease in the amount of garbage. Yeah, because we buy less, we consume less, therefore we generate less garbage. So that is one of the first places that you can see recessionary types of measurable indicators. So we've even taken off on an experiment for recycling, keeping it simple, and I'm following his lead on this. But aluminum cans within Louisiana, there are ways to recycle them. I think they're like 1.8 cents a can. And you know, if you look at the top of the aluminum cans, there are different states that are kind of listed out on top that you can turn it in for a Dime here for a nickel in Maine, right? Well, we were in Maine two weeks ago and thought, you know what, let's try to turn in these cans that we drink while we're there. We tried three different ways to turn in our recyclables and it was, it was nearly impossible. We didn't have a permit because we weren't main residents. So as far as they knew, we were bootlegging those materials across the state lines and, and trying to turn them in you. There was a registration type of system that we also tried. It was called clink, where you bag up your things and you deposit it at the local grocery store. But unless you have an account set up with a QR code, I mean, it was. We even watched a guy in the rain fighting with the little deposit, kind of like a library book return slot. That's where you would put, put your recyclables. He couldn't get it open. So in our little. Yeah. And then at the Airbnb we were staying at, this was my last ditch effort to do something of value with our recyclables. I messaged the, the homeowner and said, hey, with your trash service, would it be helpful for you if we sort this and leave the recyclables separate? And they said, nah, just throw it all in the, the bin. So.

[21:00] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right.

[21:02] DONNA JOHNSON: So even, even when we're trying to not be wasteful, you can't help but be a part of that system. So I absolutely agree with you.

[21:15] CHRIS KRIEGER: It is frustrating because I want to do the right thing, but, you know, there are times when I used to do it. And then I started keeping records on my time and because I, I wasn't bringing home what, what I needed to bring home to justify being away from my own home that long and, you know, the extra cost for daycare, whatever, and, and I just, I saw I can't, I can't do it. And I was so sad to do it. And because I used to, I run a combination tree service and remodeling service. And I had one old guy and he was a really very steady worker. So I could, I could make plans based on his work because he was so consistent. You know, two college boys, unsupervised is half a boy. But, but he got so frustrated because I wouldn't do everything possible to get the most out of every tree. But, you know, they don't, you know, you can't take lumber out of the branches. They'll warp or wind. So you can only use that for firewood. And, you know, firewood is a, you know, you're always selling that against someone who's doing it for, for meth money or booze money. And so I can't, I can't make that. If I lived in the Northwest, I could. But. But more people heat with wood there. So, yeah, it's, it is frustrating right now. Have you found. Now you said that you're, you're very conservative and Christian and you're valued. Does that affect how you do research? Does that affect your, your take on a whole bunch of things?

[22:55] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah. So anytime I approach a research topic, recognizing personal biases is, is part of that process for me. That mindset, waste not, want not. These are things we've been entrusted with on our, our planet that we've got to be good stewards of. So I don't worship the almighty dollar. So approaching those topics with the mindset that is interested in finding ways to make good use of what we have been given is definitely present in how I view things.

[23:34] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right. That's. Well, does that sort of propel your research areas? Did that somehow. I guess that did in a way, send you down the waste not. What? Not into the garbage.

[23:46] DONNA JOHNSON: The, you know, the way that waste not want not garbage topic started is there was a billing error that my partner had experienced with his trash service and they had switched hands. You know, the garbage company had. And he had prepaid. They didn't have record of it. And, and he's just trying to pay people to haul his waste. So he thought, you know what, there's got to be a way that I can get rid of these things that's more economical, that's more eco friendly. And it has just snowballed from there. Like, what is this garbage industry? So that's how that got started, actually.

[24:30] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, I wish I could remember the name of the archaeologist. He's gone to some of the dumps of the big landfills in New York and that part of the country, and he's done excavations in these landfills.

[24:43] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. He's referenced in this garbology.

[24:52] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay.

[24:54] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. And. And garbology is that archaeological study of garbage. Yeah.

[25:00] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right. Okay, gotcha. Cool. That's. Well, that's. Well. So what do you think are the big challenges for education then? Coming up, it seems to me just. It seems like society is wanting to put more and more on the backs of the school system and on educators, and at the same time, you know, I mean, they're asking. This is just my perception from living in a lot of conservative states Like Idaho and Oklahoma and Montana and. But they want more and more, but they're not paying anymore. And you know, when I came back from the South Pole, I gave talks at elementary schools and I would give one or possibly two 45 minute, 50 minute talks in a, in a morning or an afternoon. And I was rung out, you know, because I was really dialed in, trying to be effective, trying to be informative but entertaining and keep the kids awake and. And I didn't have a lot of media, so I was passing pictures around. I didn't have, you know, slides or this was 30 years ago. But. But I mean, it's a job, it's hard work and it's. At the end of the day, the last thing I want to do is, you know, go mow the lawn or something and you know more about it than I do. But to me, I think that just makes it more and more frustrating. And apparently Oklahoma is losing teachers left and right. And after one to three years, they're gone. The door does not hit them on their fanny. So what kind of things are you concerned about as an educator, as an education administrator?

[26:48] DONNA JOHNSON: So I get to kind of approach that just in my own conceptualization with the hat of K12 or even pre K through 12th grade as a subset of education and then also higher education.

[27:02] CHRIS KRIEGER: Sure.

[27:03] DONNA JOHNSON: Each is their distinct types of good or service. My experience is that education is a social service by and large is paid for through the means of taxes. And we as citizens expect that we can have access to transportation for our kiddos to go, that they'll be fed when they're there. And a lot of those, what were, I guess parental responsibilities have now been put on the system of education. What do I think the challenges there are? Burnout, recruiting and retention of those who are highly qualified. You know, where your treasure is, there your heart will be Also, if we don't invest that treasure into those individuals, those, those teachers, those educators, then that shows us that maybe that's not something that we put high value on. At the same time, we're asking of them, we're asking them to take on the bell curve. Right? Kids at both ends of the bell curve spectrum, and this is K12 and higher ed. You've got people of all types coming into those spaces. And with the regulations that are placed on particularly K12 educators, we're often required because of special ed accommodations to give special attention to those outliers actually at both ends of that bell curve. So from my experiences, I often found myself neglecting that majority that was there in the middle because I was having to give so much extra attention to those at both ends of the spectrum, those who needed more support and then those who were so high that they needed additional types of support so that those kiddos in the middle, they were just going to make it and that's what they were trying to do. When you get into higher ed, it's a little bit of a different world because a lot of times people are paying to be there. In Louisiana, we've had a funding shift over the past 10 years. Our state institutions at least not our private, but our state higher education institutions were 70% state funded over the past 10 years. That has inverted so that now we are only 30% state funded. So and actually it's less than that now. I think we're 25.6% state funded. But so we don't get the resources, but we have the regulation of the state. So we are in this really tight crossroads where we're, we're being told what we can and can't do, but are not being resourced appropriately to do those things. And in a world where higher education and really education in general. I had this conversation last week. Old school model of college. A professor was there to stand and deliver and profess about what they were an expert on right now, YouTube can profess. So you know, we've got to continue to make ourselves relevant as an industry and higher education with an inverted funding model. We have to be relevant or we're not going to be able to be self sustaining like we need to be. The breakdown of the home and the desperate places that the students come from and are all expected to go into that same classroom and perform to the same levels. Sure, it's heavy.

[31:06] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, what about as Louisiana? I would imagine it's affected by a lot of the social issues. You know, we've heard a lot about Florida and Desantis and all that and Oklahoma, of course our secretary of state is, you know, he's, he's on something. But so you know we're, and it's gonna, we're gonna have to, the state's gonna have to spend a terrible amount of money to defend this stuff, you know, all the way to the Supreme Court. And you know, it seems, I'm fairly certain that, you know, our, our secretary of education is not, not gonna, his position is not gonna legally stand up. So. But it's gonna take six digits or seven digits to. And it's gonna take all these years where it's a talking point just so this Guy can run for office in a couple of years. I feel bad for our kids that money could, could go to our schools. But Louisiana been affected by that or do you think that that's a good course that we need to go on?

[32:11] DONNA JOHNSON: I think Louisiana is a hotbed for political contention. We recently we have a new governor and his initiatives are rolling out hard and heavy and he's reversing a lot of things that had been in place, making a lot of new appointments and you know, putting his people in spots. So I say that to say we're all kind of sitting back waiting to see what's about to unfold in the state. Because of, for higher ed, especially that shifting funding formula that I was talking about, we don't anticipate much relief in that area, which is a driver for us to continue to be self sustaining and find alternative revenue streams. And that's actually what I get to do for the university I'm at right now is to come up with ways to connect what we do in the university with the world outside of the university so that we're relevant and that we're kind of finding the mutually beneficial ways of connecting with corporate partners, municipalities, agencies. Actually we're more and more getting into the defense tech space.

[33:22] CHRIS KRIEGER: Oh, is that right?

[33:23] DONNA JOHNSON: Okay, we've got Barksdale Air Force Base here, which is home of Global Strike.

[33:27] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay.

[33:28] DONNA JOHNSON: So we're in primarily engineering focused institution. And so it's a, it's a natural connection that we're kind of merging along R and D the direction that, that supports some of those technologies, at least with our external engagements anyhow. So yeah, I think schools are at a place where we're going to get to define what we see as our mission and goal and find ways to fund it. And I think that will attract certain audiences even on our campus. We've had individuals since we've got multi tenant facilities on campus where businesses come and have office spaces, they hire students as interns, they do research and development with faculty members. But we have had, especially in the last, I would say year, year and a half as we're moving into the interest in defense tech. Had to be sensitive to the fact that there are students, maybe even an international students who, faculty as well, who are not interested in touching things that would end up becoming defense technologies.

[34:46] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right, right. Yeah, I could, I could see that. That's. Oklahoma State has a, it's a, it's a university that's a good bang for the buck as far as engineering and agriculture. It's the land grant University for the state. So, so we, we are rich in that area that we have so many international students in a, in a very small town. But of course they have a very different political mindset than, than Americans, especially in this part of America that you know, are a lot more interested in who's going to win the football or basketball game than what's happening in Ukraine or South Sudan right today. And that really affects, you know, certain things. But also we have a couple companies here that have set up and they are deliberately going out and hiring a lot of engineering students whether they're international or not to, you know, and the students like that because they get to make more money than they would, you know, at a restaurant as an assistant manager at a restaurant. But and these companies, you know they're, that's what they're doing. They're contracting out to various defense things and it's all hush hush and you know, you can't just walk into those offices. They, they want to see your ID.

[36:08] DONNA JOHNSON: And I know it all too well.

[36:12] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah, to me a little bit. I mean I'm sorry that you have to do that to find that financing because you know, like I have a couple friends that were chemical, they are chemical engineering PhDs and you know my one, my one friend Yash, he held a chair position after he completed his coursework and his advisor was the head of the department when they had to come up with an idea for him for his dissertation. They went to ConocoPhillips to ask what ConocoPhillips would pay for. And so we live in a state that for example uses a lot of fracking. It's caused a lot of earthquakes that caused a lot of damage and now they have eased off. But we still have earthquakes. You can go to the U.S. geological Survey site, you can see them all the time in this part of the country. And you know, we have no work in our geology department is long term look at how to study more about fracking. But we have all kinds of ways to study, you know, everything else about it. And so to me that's problematic. It goes back to that whole idea does our system let us make the right decision? So I would love to see our country, you know pay a lot more for, for education frankly. But you know, because if you look at the multiplier effect, the worst payoff you have is defense spending. You know, it's, it's probably half of what any other kind infrastructure and even programs, all that stuff can get re spent, you know, three, four times. You know, defense Rarely gets re spent more than what, 2.5, I think, you know, so I don't know to me, that. But that, but you say that and then they say, oh, you're a commie, you know, you want to make us vulnerable, you know, to everybody else. Well, no, I don't. So I know. I find that frustrating.

[38:21] DONNA JOHNSON: But think about this too, though. In our model, the way we're connecting education with the defense industry, it's almost combining where the defense industry's purse is helping fund activities of the education sector.

[38:46] CHRIS KRIEGER: So.

[38:48] DONNA JOHNSON: So it is kind of a way to keep those dollars at home in advance. Both.

[38:56] CHRIS KRIEGER: That's true.

[38:57] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah.

[38:57] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, do you find, looking at our questions here at the bottom. Okay, could you. Could you briefly describe in your own words your personal political values?

[39:13] DONNA JOHNSON: Personal political values? Is that. In my own words, I don't like politics because for me, that quite often spells out the agenda of, of man. And with. With the dovetailing of my political views and my views of faith, humans are flawed. And so to put the agendas of man as put my. My trust and faith in any type of political agenda makes me nervous because I don't know that that's the right place to put our trust in faith. So. But I do consider myself conservative. I consider myself a proponent of. Of life, a proponent of freedom, a proponent of the. The ability to live and let live. So while I hold those views for myself, I also think that part of that is to allow other people to have their views. And sometimes that even competes within my own concept of political view, because I know what I believe. I know everybody else can believe what they would like to believe, but somehow we're going to have to come to terms on these governing principles.

[40:45] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right? Right.

[40:46] DONNA JOHNSON: And so is it majority rule? What is that guiding, overarching piece of light that you try to follow? So for me, I have to base my political views on my faith and let others do the same. And. And I'm grateful I'm in a place where that still lets me do what I get to do.

[41:11] CHRIS KRIEGER: That's good. Yeah. Well, yeah, you know, I was raised and I went to Catholic schools every year, but kindergarten in my senior year. But I knew early on that was not for me. And I'm very strongly. I have my own spiritual beliefs and I definitely believe in something else. But to me, I see a lot of the organized spiritual approaches, frankly, seem to be at least as much concentrated on power and control as they are anything else. And I find that really troublesome when I'm trying to figure out what to do. You know, I think the Catholic Church took like almost 500 years to recognize Galileo was right and let him out of purgatory by their thinking. And I need something with a faster turnaround than that, so. And I'm pretty confident with my own spirituality, so I don't really like being converted. And I live in one of the buckles of the Bible belt and that's a constant thing that I've had to learn to be less sensitive to. But politically, I'm an independent. I'm a volunteer election worker like you. I want everyone to have their say, even if I think it's their vote. And so we have one of the lowest voter turnouts in the country. I think we're about 20%.

[42:41] DONNA JOHNSON: Oh, wow.

[42:42] CHRIS KRIEGER: We have one of the top three voting systems in the country. It is so secure, it's ridiculous. And, you know, it is probably possible for someone to hack it. Actually not to hack it, but to. But we'll be able to find out who and when and where like that, you know, so it's, it's a really good system. So I'm proud to be a part of that. But I'm an independent, so, you know, I decide things by three. Three questions. Is it going to promote equal opportunity, Is it going to support equal responsibility, and is it sustainable? Because, you know, I think anything else is going to be immoral, unethical, or just plain stupid. So I feel strongly about it. You know, I don't want to give a company a break on doing something that's going to cause pollution that you and I are going to have to pay taxes to fix for the next 40 years. You know, I would like Walmart to pay their people a lot more so we don't have to pay WIC and SNAP and housing assistance and free cell phones for all their workers that don't make enough after 39 hours a week. I find that offensive at so many levels. You know, they keep getting richer and so I'm really concerned about the disparity, the erosion of the middle class. And I grew up poor, poorest family on the street. My parents have lived the American dream. They busted their ass and they retired. Well, my dad was the first generation college. My mom was the. She was the first as well. And so I know the benefits of hard work and education and that's a big part of it. But I do think the system is stacked. So I call myself a radical moderate. There are some things I'm quite conservative and some things I'm quite liberal, you know, if it's a free. If they're freely consenting, a. Whoever they decide to kiss is none of my business. It doesn't affect me, it doesn't affect my neighborhood. Absolutely none of my business. But you're never gonna get my guns. So, you know, that's. I hunt. I want to defend my home. And you know, we can talk about it all day and I'll listen. I'll do my best to be objective. But I find it hard to believe you'll convince me that I need to give them up. And if our alleged, if our election system at the federal level was more fair and democratic and less corrupted by this campaign contribution thing, Citizens United, and that I might feel more comfortable with the government having all the guns. But until that's changed, no, I'm not going to go there. So that's pretty much my politics. I think we all should be grateful to be in America. I think we should all have a tax system that we're proud to be a part of because we have those benefits. I think there are a lot of tensions in our society. You know, most white men couldn't handle being black for about two weeks without getting arrested or, or going to prison. I'm pretty sure of that. And you ladies, come on. I mean, 20. I don't know what happened, but ever since we domesticated animals and created agricultural wealth, you have not fared well in Western or Eastern civilization. And you know, I think a big part of going forward in the future is parity. Parity in the decision making process at every level through society because women build community. We've determined that time after time after time, you give a guy money, you gave a guy money, you give women money, it goes into the community somehow, directly, indirectly, and you know, every NGO can attest to that. So I just. But that's very. So that's kind of liberal. But, but to me, I think it's, in a way, it's the textbook of conservative before you take the popular definition of conservative because that's, that's an evolving term. So, so that's my take on things.

[47:24] DONNA JOHNSON: And that's a good point. The evolving term. I think most terms do evolve and have been evolving. What would have qualified as liberal viewpoints in one generational era or viewed quite the opposite? So yeah, I think you're right that those, those views kind of change and, and shift with time and, and I could absolutely get into new age technologies and AI and the roles that that's going to play, play in how we all interact with one another. And with the information around us. But yeah, I think, I think a lot of stuff is evolving and the, the speed at which all of our concepts and information.

[48:21] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right.

[48:22] DONNA JOHNSON: Can make shifts and changes because information dissemination is so readily available to everybody. Sure. Newly available to you with your smartphone.

[48:37] CHRIS KRIEGER: I have had one for. It's been a while now, but. But yeah, is still involved, but not nearly as often. That's when I first.

[48:48] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.

[48:50] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, you know, populism, you know, populism was a very radical liberal term when William Jennings Bryan was running for president, you know, a hundred and twenty years ago. But, but now it's, it's considered a reactionary term. So.

[49:05] DONNA JOHNSON: But yeah, there's. Speaking of presidential elections, man. And you're going to be working there in Oklahoma in a couple months for this, huh?

[49:19] CHRIS KRIEGER: You know, it's, we had the early ones for our primaries and I usually get to be an inspector because of the. How the state law is. So. And I worked early voting because I'm self employed and can take. Adjust my work schedule and take off for a couple days and we get a lot higher turnout that way. But past couple years we've had to have people. We have the county sheriffs, they're a present when we turn in everything and they have extra people on standby every election now because every election our county election board, they've all been followed to their homes.

[49:59] DONNA JOHNSON: Oh my gosh.

[50:01] CHRIS KRIEGER: So. And they have been threatened in the office. And so, you know, it kind of goes up down with how many elections we have throughout the year. You know, last year we didn't have any. Or 2021 we didn't have any. But 2022 and 2023, we have had some so.

[50:19] DONNA JOHNSON: And so. It's almost a dangerous thing to do.

[50:24] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah. My only, my one caveat to that is we are such a conservative state. You know, all 77 counties have carried the conservative presidential candidate for the past three elections. So that does cut out a certain amount of it. But we still have it. So. Yeah, I definitely am careful.

[50:47] DONNA JOHNSON: Right, right. Well, it must mean something to you to do it otherwise, I mean, why risk it unless it was an important job to do?

[50:57] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, you know, I want to give back. I volunteer with like, you know, you said you were the community. I, I work with Habitat, I work with people in recovery, been an adult literacy tutor at times and I've also been a cultural liaison for international students. A lot of them come here for one or two years of postgraduate work with their spouse and their spouse is stuck in this little small Town in the middle of nowhere with no transportation and a city that has very little mass transportation and not very great language skills. So, you know, I've been the only white guy on the bus and I've been, you know, you know, I've been in a mansion of the guest of a brigadier general and I've. I've lived 50 miles from a grocery store. So it's fun for me to try and. And relate to all these people that are stuck in Stillwater because I think we should all be grateful. You know, I know what it's like to. I know what it's like in other countries. And most Americans have no clue how lucky we are. And it's not through anything that we've done, nothing that we've earned. It's geography and that.

[52:18] DONNA JOHNSON: And it's ours to botch.

[52:20] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah. Yes, that's right.

[52:24] DONNA JOHNSON: Or not.

[52:25] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we won't. But.

[52:27] DONNA JOHNSON: Hopefully we won't. Yeah.

[52:29] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, are you excited about the summer and the coming year or do you want to.

[52:34] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. Getting ready for the next school year. You know how that cycle goes. So I think it'll be a good one. We anticipate lots of changes, state level and federal level. So here we go.

[52:51] CHRIS KRIEGER: Fingers crossed.

[52:53] DONNA JOHNSON: Right.

[52:57] CHRIS KRIEGER: Who. Who do you think's been the most influential person? I mean, you're, You've sound like you've really taken life, you know, as a grown up and just totally, you know, kick butt and taking names, frankly. I mean, you're, you seem to be successful at many levels, you know, personal and professional. Is my take on you, who helped influence you to get you to where you are?

[53:21] DONNA JOHNSON: Probably my dad.

[53:23] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay.

[53:24] DONNA JOHNSON: Absolutely. Hardest working man I know. Blue collar. His collar is blue, his neck is red and.

[53:32] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right.

[53:34] DONNA JOHNSON: So you know what? I was his only son because all I had was my little sister. So he was a girl dad.

[53:43] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right, right.

[53:44] DONNA JOHNSON: I was his only son. And for that reason, I feel like I got exposure to a lot of different things that gave me insight and grit and some sense of ethics that not all daughters get. Probably not unlike yours.

[54:02] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right, right. That's. Well, what. Is your dad still alive? Your mom?

[54:07] DONNA JOHNSON: Yep.

[54:08] CHRIS KRIEGER: Is your dad retired now? Does he still work?

[54:11] DONNA JOHNSON: Happily retired and retreated to the piney woods of north Louisiana.

[54:16] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay. All right. Now, did you grow up in Louisiana then?

[54:19] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah.

[54:20] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay, you went to Texas for a while and then came right back?

[54:23] DONNA JOHNSON: Yep. Yeah, about seven years. Yeah, I was trapped over there for about seven years, but okay. Came back.

[54:32] CHRIS KRIEGER: Sure.

[54:33] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah. What about you? Most influential person for you?

[54:39] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah, I'd Say I was. It would be my mom probably. You know, she's just remarkable. Or she was. She's. She's dead now, but she died a couple years ago. And you know, it's funny, we all thought my dad would go first because the men in his family have bad hearts. But she was. She was orphaned when. Or not orphaned, but she lost her mom when she was 10 and grew up with her dad, who grandpa ran a hardware store on a small farm in Ohio. And so she grew up balancing the books. And then she had to work really hard to learn how to be a mom in a. In a big city when she got married. And, you know, when she sets a goal and sets her mind, sets boundaries with people, she. She held to them with a lot of. But they were well thought of. You know, they weren't. My dad and I are impulse. We'll set one and have to realize, well, we better back that up. You know, we were in the heat of the moment. But she's all about empowering other people. So, you know, we did. During COVID when we lost her, we did an online memorial from the funeral home. And you know, we had people from, I don't know, about 12 states, I think, and four different other countries. Four countries total, just graduate students. She helps. We had a one professor. She ended up paying him for two months because university messed up his salary and of course he paid her back later. But she just did so much to empower so many people and never really asked any. I was raised to believe that doing the next right thing is its own reward. And you don't even need to be thanked for it. And you should help anybody you can, if you can. And so to this day, you know, I have a tow strap, a first aid kit, towing chains, you know, and. And I don't care if you've got a Trump or a Biden bumper sticker. If I see on the side of the road, I. I'm gonna stop and say, hey, what do you. Is there something I can do? You know, and. And I got that from. She had the emotional resiliency to go through life. And I think there's a whole strength that you women have in general that a lot of us men frankly don't. But I think it's. That kind of resiliency is what really helps people have true personal satisfaction and life and success for. According to their own personal needs and goals. So I think us men are easily. Are more prone to convention, I suppose the dictates of convention. And so, yeah, I think that's yeah, definitely my mom or my great grandmother. So for the same reasons. She was very tough.

[57:46] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah. Wow, that's wonderful.

[57:53] CHRIS KRIEGER: My great grandfather was a barber and he worked in Cincinnati and would come home to the farm in southeastern Indiana every two weeks for the weekend. And then he lived with extended family in the city for the rest of the time. And she ran this little small truck farm and milked some cows for cash and raised the six kids on this big huge garden. And she, she had her own way with animals. And my great grandfather apparently was quite heavy handed and he would get the horses all jacked up and that would really make her mad because she would get them all calmed down, then he would come home. But, you know, so. But I know it's been fun getting to know you a lot better. So I hope, I hope.

[58:41] DONNA JOHNSON: Yes, for sure, for sure. That was a great chat. And it'll be another one for the books.

[58:50] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah, I think so. Now are you keeping in contact with people as you go or. Or.

[58:55] DONNA JOHNSON: There is one lady. Yes. That I have kept in contact with. She's had a very differing viewpoint. East coast helping campaign for, you know, in ways that I would not have been in support of. So it was a great exchange, but was a wonderful lady that I thought, you know what, she would be a great one to contact with.

[59:21] CHRIS KRIEGER: So would you like to exchange emails?

[59:24] DONNA JOHNSON: Sure, sure. What is yours?

[59:29] CHRIS KRIEGER: All small letters. # # # # # # # # # # # # #### #####.

[59:48] DONNA JOHNSON: I'll repeat it back to you. # # # # # # # # # # # # #### ## #####.

[59:57] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yes, that's it.

[59:58] DONNA JOHNSON: Right. Is ##### # # # # # # ## ## ### ####### # # # # # # #. Okay. And then the number one ## #####.

[01:00:17] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay, I gotcha. Cool. Well now I'm gonna have to check out that garbology book at the OSU library. Just out of curiosity.

[01:00:27] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah. Edward Humes is the author and I've got this version of it. Total Garbage is the newer edition of it. So I've got the older. There's a newer. A newer version.

[01:00:41] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, you know, that is the, the tallest point in the city I live.

[01:00:46] DONNA JOHNSON: Close to is the landfill.

[01:00:48] CHRIS KRIEGER: Is our landfill.

[01:00:49] DONNA JOHNSON: Yep.

[01:00:50] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah, it's.

[01:00:53] DONNA JOHNSON: And I don't know if you, if you're interested in stocks or watching any of that, but like I had mentioned, that's. The landfills are one of the first places to see a recession coming. The stock market. There are two. Two or three prominent waste disposal companies and while the market has been like this over the past, I don't know, four years, garbage has done like this.

[01:01:19] CHRIS KRIEGER: So is that like BFI and Allied?

[01:01:24] DONNA JOHNSON: That's like Waste Management and Republic.

[01:01:27] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay. All right. The dump in Stillwater is interesting because a guy bought it and when the EPA wanted everybody to put up their $1 million cash bonds for the super fund deposits, his dad got him the money and he put up the million dollar bond. And so he put a lot of small towns out of business. They had to come to him. But then beefy bfi, which I think is part of Republic, they came and apparently they're partly owned by the mob or organized crime back east.

[01:02:05] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah, heard that too. Yeah.

[01:02:07] CHRIS KRIEGER: They ran their trucks at a loss for six months and they put him out of business. So he sold. So they. Now. So. So the mom is in Stillwater.

[01:02:17] DONNA JOHNSON: I believe it.

[01:02:21] CHRIS KRIEGER: Well, now are you. Do you go and do articles and go to conventions and present this or.

[01:02:28] DONNA JOHNSON: It just depends on what the topic is. I have a couple of things that were picked up with our Italian researchers that I've contributed content to, but I'll not go to do the presentation. I'll let them kind of champion that information and those audiences. But I have two other engagements that I'll be a part of kind of later this summer. One is in August in Vegas, and it's all about AI and government agencies. And the ethical use of AI is essentially what I'll be kind of working on. And then the others in Miami. And that's going to be about the future of higher education and how we have to come up with alternative revenue generating outlets.

[01:03:09] CHRIS KRIEGER: Sure.

[01:03:10] DONNA JOHNSON: Yep.

[01:03:12] CHRIS KRIEGER: Do you, do you like what Europe is doing in terms of trying to, to referee some of the AI and social media stuff, or do you think America needs a different approach?

[01:03:25] DONNA JOHNSON: I. I do think we need some policy around it, some clear guidance. I do. I don't know right answer of what that should look like. But for it to be a free for all, that's very dangerous.

[01:03:39] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah, yeah. I don't know much about it either. But I have heard whenever anybody is like Facebook has to pay a fine or Apple or whatever, it's usually to Europe, somebody in the EU and not.

[01:03:52] DONNA JOHNSON: Here, a breach there. Yeah, yeah. There's just so much, there's so much damage that can be done with disinformation, misinformation, misused information. And if we don't get our arms around it in a way that gives it safe operational norms. I mean, just like the Internet.

[01:04:17] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right.

[01:04:17] DONNA JOHNSON: We needed it Needed some bumpers which then pushes the, the slant out to dark web. Right, right, right. Then that can live in its dirty state, if you will. We don't need pervasive AI technologies that are trying to be a part of our lives and us not realize it.

[01:04:41] CHRIS KRIEGER: Sure.

[01:04:42] DONNA JOHNSON: That that creates alternative realities, quite honestly.

[01:04:46] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah. Yeah. There's. Oh yeah, there's a guy, he just, he's done a TED Talk about things we can do and he's very big on certain things we can do with our kids. And he's of the opinion our children don't need any exposure to social media until they're at least 16.

[01:05:04] DONNA JOHNSON: Absolutely agree. Maybe 16 is not right number But I was, I went through the Digital Wellness Institute and I'm a digital wellness practitioner. So. Yeah. Yeah. Just understanding that technology is a tool and how do we use this tool in ways that add value to our lives instead of detract.

[01:05:27] CHRIS KRIEGER: We know. I was really surprised. My daughter, when she was 11, she moved in with her mom full time and her mom married a guy in a small town south of Tulsa. And you know, when she was 12 and 13, the kids were sending each other nude pics and they were shaming each other to bully them socially to do that. And I was just shocked. I mean, when we were kids, I'm sure everybody tried to get a kiss behind the shed somewhere, but I mean it wasn't that. And so I was just flabbergasted. There's a lady who's written, she's written two books and one is Girls and Sex and another one is Boys and Sex. And she, she does this really exhaustive interviews and follows people for, for several months or a year or so and does a very detailed interviewing of, you know, a hundred or so children or teenagers. And I was the most recent one came out a couple years ago and I listened to an interview with her with Terry Gross on Fresh air. It's an NPR program. And I was just shocked at the, the pressure for these, you know, the hookups that don't, they're not for emotional contact. They're just to check a list off, I guess. And.

[01:06:57] DONNA JOHNSON: Yeah, that's one area of danger for the. Yeah, it's. But it's one of those windows that once you've allowed the negative to creep in, you can't unsee it. You can un. Live it and there's long term effects.

[01:07:21] CHRIS KRIEGER: Yeah.

[01:07:22] DONNA JOHNSON: So yeah, it's, it's not good.

[01:07:25] CHRIS KRIEGER: Right. You can't unring the bell. It's, it's. Yeah. Right, right.

[01:07:30] DONNA JOHNSON: Awesome. Well, I'm gonna run and make dinner now.

[01:07:33] CHRIS KRIEGER: Okay. All right. Well, I'm enjoying. Donna, thanks a lot for your have a great time.

[01:07:37] DONNA JOHNSON: Absolutely. Safe travels back out to the wilderness, away from civilization. And, yeah, thanks for making the trip to the library to make the connection.

[01:07:48] CHRIS KRIEGER: I really enjoyed it. Thanks a lot for giving me something to think about.

[01:07:51] DONNA JOHNSON: Absolutely. Same.

[01:07:52] CHRIS KRIEGER: Take care.

[01:07:53] DONNA JOHNSON: All right, bye.