Irma Avila and Liz Deines

[00:03] IRMA AVILA: Hello. My name is Irma Avila. I am 69 years old. Today is the 4 February 2023, here in El Paso, Texas. My interview partner is Liz Deines We are community members. We both belong to the Loretto community here in El Paso. I am a sister of Loretto. We have co members as part of our community and have been a sister for 36 years. I am an alum of Loretto Academy, graduated in 1971. Go, Angels.

[00:45] LIZ DEINES: And I am Liz Deines and I'm definitely old enough to vote. Today's date is February 4, 2023, and I'm in El Paso, Texas. The name of my interview partner is Irma Avila, and the relationship to Irma. I'm also a sister of Loretto, and I'm her friend.

[01:14] IRMA AVILA: And so we live across the street from Loretto Academy. I have had the opportunity to be an employee of the academy two different times for two different doing two different jobs. And, Liz, what is your connection to the academy?

[01:36] LIZ DEINES: Well, the connection to the academy is that I started teaching there in 1979, and I have been a classroom teacher all that time, except for a couple of years that I took off to go do the nun thing, and then I came back and started teaching there again. So I've been classroom teacher at the academy for over 20 years, and this year I started a new job as campus minister. So I'm no longer in the classroom, but now I'm working with the three different schools on our campus. And our main goal with campus ministry right now is to promote La Dauto Si, the encyclical that Pope Francis wrote in 2015 about care for creation and care for God's people. So that's where I'm at right now. So I'm still employed at the academy, just in a different way.

[02:35] IRMA AVILA: Yes, we lived together, and so we were in prepping for this conversation, had talked a lot about what we remembered from our high school years. And, I mean, I started high school in 67, so, you know, walking to school was common. There were no cell phones. Computers were surely not something that you carried in your hand back then. But I was remembering a Loretto, that there were probably many more sisters on staff in administration than now. What has been your experience over the years, Liz, with the ratio of community members in the school?

[03:22] LIZ DEINES: Well, that's when I started working there. Bernice was there, Jane was there, Pat, Joyce was there, Eileen was there, and Pat, of course, I can't remember her last name right now, but she was the president, and so. Huh.

[03:48] IRMA AVILA: Williams.

[03:49] LIZ DEINES: Williams. Thank you very much, Pat Williams. And so there were five sisters there, and they were all pretty lively. They were a lot of fun.

[04:00] IRMA AVILA: We tried to keep that characteristic. I remember a time there at the academy when the clubs had dances every month. They were a fundraiser. We had two boys schools then, the Jesuit and cathedral. And so the boys would get to come to the dances, and the students got cards. You could have ten cards, so you could invite your neighbors or friends from the public school to come to the dances as well. And back in those days, had formal dance. Besides the junior senior prom, there was a formal dance, and all the high schools had a formal dance, and you were. There were representatives from each school that came to those dances, and I know that that's no longer been a tradition. Gosh, probably for 40 some years. Liz, you might have a story about trying to resurrect a formal dance.

[05:06] LIZ DEINES: Yeah. One year, I kind of listened to the wrong advice from several kids, and we tried to resurrect the Praxidian ball, which was. Yeah, well, after that experience, we realized why it died a natural death, and we let it go back to that state. It was funny. The kids really didn't know about formal anything. And so, like, when the, you know, the dates would show up, the boys would come to the. To the entrance of the gym, and they weren't dressed formally. They didn't have their ties. And so, yeah, Abe went home and got a bunch of ties, and they were, like, weird looking things. And some of the other male sponsors went and got some of their ties, and they're giving these kids ties at the door. No, you got to wear a tie to get in here. So, I mean, it was pretty funny. And then I was stuck there during the afternoon waiting because they were bringing tablecloths from juarez, and so I was sitting in the gym waiting for these tablecloths from juarez for, like, you know, two or 3 hours, just sitting there waiting for them to show up. There were a lot of things that were, like, not. Not pleasant about it. And then when the dance finally started, it was, like, pretty dull. Okay. Why do we spend all this time and money on this thing? So, yeah, that was the first and last time that the Praxidian ball happened.

[06:47] IRMA AVILA: Oh. And I remember I didn't go to them myself, but decorating for them. That was an era when there were orchestras. There were two orchestras in town that they played for graduations and things like that. It was just a thing to get a long formal dress and your flowers and the whole thing. But I guess homecomings now are the closest thing to that. I have a lot of good memories about going there to school. It's an all girls school, and one of the characteristics, I guess, that still continues is just a really a real focus on the empowering young women. The little bit that I know about our history, there are professionals of every type all over that are alums of Loretto Academy, judges and attorneys and doctors, and have had a strong presence of mexican girls. So young women then all over the Americas probably, who are, as I call them, Loretto girls.

[08:11] LIZ DEINES: Yeah. And to kind of, like, piggyback on what you're saying, the academy, the middle school, and high school is all girls, but we also have an elementary school that for some reason, people in El Paso are like, huh, there's boys. Yes. We have pre k three through fifth grade, and it's co ed, and so we have the elementary school, the middle school, the high school. So it's kind of, it's kind of fun because you can play with the littles and then, you know, go with, with the mid schoolers, and then you go into the high school, and so you get this range of ages from three to 18. It's kind of fun to be there. There's a lot of variety.

[08:56] IRMA AVILA: Yes. A lot of history there. Loretto Academy will be celebrating 100 years in 2024. So, I mean, it's a noticeable building, but I can't begin to count how many alums, how many students who came and didn't graduate in all those years from the elementary to the high school. I was remembering back in the day when the convent was full and El Paso's elementary schools were greatly staffed by sisters of Loretto. It was not an uncommon thing. Right. You belonged to the parish. You went to a catholic school if you could. It was. Was not uncommon.

[09:50] LIZ DEINES: Yeah. Yeah. That was the thing to do.

[09:54] IRMA AVILA: Well, and it was the way things were. Like nowadays, you don't find too many catholic schools still open. I've lived for a while in St. Louis. In St. Louis, all the religious congregations still have schools, so there must be 15 different ones. And I've just always been proud of Loretto's history here and all of its achievements. Yes. You have any special memories of teaching there?

[10:33] LIZ DEINES: Funny instances. This one day, a child had asked to go to the bathroom, so I said, sure, go on. And so she went to the bathroom, and she came back, and she couldn't open the door, and that wasn't unusual because you could lock the door from the inside, and you can't get in from the outside. So I told another kid, open the door. For her. So she gets up, and she goes, I can't open the door. I'm like, what do you mean you can't open the door? And she's like, I can't open the door. So she couldn't open the door. It had locked. So it's locked from the inside, and it's locked from the outside. So this is an interesting situation. So all the kids are like, why can't she open the door? So I said, don't worry. So I took out my phone, and I called the office, and that's when James still worked there. And for some reason, he answered the phone, and I said, hi, yeah, this is Liz, and in room 200. And he said, yeah, what do you want? I said, we can't open the door because. What do you mean you can't open the door? We can't open the door. And so he and, like, two or three guys from maintenance with their tool belts are, like, running down the hall to the door, and they're like, we can't open the door. It's like, no kidding, you know, now the kids are, like, inside, not really panicking, but this is, like, right before lunch, and they don't want to be late for lunch, you know? So they're starting up, and I'm telling them, look, in 200 years, when they, you know, excavate this area, they're not going to find a bunch of skeletons in your desks. Don't worry. You're going to get to lunch. And so they're kind of, like, fussing, and the guys at the door are, like, figuring out how to do this. Well, they took off. We have these doors that have panels of glass, and they took off the panel of glass closest to the doorknob, and Fred managed to slither through this glass, through this window, get in, turn around, and start working on the doorknob from the inside with his screwdriver or whatever to get it out. Can you imagine? And so he's getting the doorknob out, and he gets a doorknob out, and then they can't fix it right then because it's, like, totally dead. And so they took it, and they took the door off. They took the hinges off. They took the door away. So for the next, like, three days, I had no door. And so everybody started teasing me that, you know, it was the open door policy that anybody can come in, and it's just fine. This is welcoming. So that was pretty funny. And another time, Eileen was right across the hallway, and Eileen is another sister of Loretto anyway, she was across the hallway, and I needed the Bibles that were in her room, and they were on this, like, real rickety cart. And I went in there very quietly, and because she was giving, like, some major exam or something. And so all the kids are spreading, and they're all quiet, and they all look pretty tense, and Eileen's doing her, you know, eyebrow thing, and I get the cart, and I'm quietly trying to pull it toward the door, and I get there, and it hits a bump over the, you know, in the threshold, and the thing falls apart, completely collapses, books all over the place. Sorry. And I don't remember. And she's tried to keep it together and not laughing, and so I just kind of, like, stepped over the Bible to. Went back to my room and just left him there. And after the test, I guess the kids picked him up or something, but it was, like, funny things would happen. And then with Eileen, too, she'd send me notes. She'd have. She'd write a note, and she'd send it over with a kid, and I'd read the note. It would be something really, like a joke or something, you know, in the middle of class, I'd start laughing, because it was just. It was good times. Good times over there.

[15:02] IRMA AVILA: Some of my memories do include that. I had Sister Eileen Custie, also for a teacher, and there was a sister in the room across the hall, and that was not uncommon for them to share jokes or pranks with each other all the time. I suppose that's a characteristic that I've often heard when people talk about Loretto, is how much fun we have together. We really do enjoy one another's company, and I think also the faculty and staff enjoy the company of the students. I'm sure that now that you're not in the classroom every day, that's something that you miss.

[15:47] LIZ DEINES: Yeah, it really is. I miss being around the kids, but the saving grace is that I do have a club that insists on meeting regularly, and so I get to see them every couple of weeks, and, you know, I get my. My kid fix that way, you know, and just being able to see him and just being with them, so that helps a lot. Yeah.

[16:16] IRMA AVILA: I went to school, and in order to help pay for tuition, I used to work after school in the convent. They had the old kind of switchboard, like, you might remember Lily Tomlin, when she used to do her impressions. She had this huge switchboard with chords. I had that, but I mentioned that simply because I had the opportunity to be over at the convent after school and on weekends. So getting to know them a little bit better, I helped out in the summers in the high school office back in the day when you priced books and you had to come in and getting everything ready for school to start and all of that. I enjoyed being with them, and they genuinely loved what they did, teaching, being together. The convent was full back in those days, and one of my favorite things to do was at school was to go over to the chapel. We have a beautiful chapel. If you've not gotten to see it, was to go there. It was a very quiet place, a place. A good break for the middle of the day. You have lots of experience there because you helped plan liturgies for the high school. Well, no, for the students on the whole campus.

[17:51] LIZ DEINES: Yeah, yeah. And you're right, that's a gorgeous place. You know, popping over there in the middle of the afternoon is just really chill. In fact, I have some pictures on the phone that I need to show you after a while of pictures I've taken of the chapel. It's a good place. It's a calm, quiet, and it's also a place where all the kids come, because every school on campus has their own liturgy, their own mass. And so when we have things that we want to promote, like coming up, Ash Wednesday is coming up on the 22nd, and we wanted to have some way for the kids, too, to be able to connect it to the rest of the season, not just starting off with Ash Wednesday and then forget about it. So, like for Lent, and you know how it's customary that you either give up something for Lent or you do something positive. And so we're going to have that as the offering for Mass. And the kids are. I'm voting for the heart, but I'll see what Nicole and Teresa say. But there's some templates of some hearts, and I figured we could cut them out and the kids could write whatever they're going to do and have that as the offering. And then I. We're going to put all of those inside a big box and wrap it up like gift wrapping, and just make it real pretty that, you know, this is the gift for God through Lent. And we're going to go put it over on the altar, you know, in the altar area. And like I'm saying, the only reason I'm saying this is because when we have something going that we want to have all the kids connect to, it makes sense to put it in the chapel because eventually all these kids are going to be in there throughout the month. And so whenever one group comes in and they say, oh, there's our box, there's our gift, you know, so they'll be able to see it and make the connection. So I like the chapel for that reason, too, because it's useful. I know it's a place where everybody is going to show up, and it's a way to keep the focus throughout the three schools in whatever we're doing as a whole academy, because that's the one place where everybody shows up. So it's good.

[20:17] IRMA AVILA: Well, and it's, as you were saying, that the chapel isn't huge. And so you can have the elementary school or the middle school or the high school there at one time have it be full, including the choir loft. There are, what, four, six times during the year that you've helped plan what are called all academy masses. And those get done in the gym. And so the maintenance crew comes and sets up and all the students and faculty are there all at one time. It's always an interesting thing because the altar is put below a basketball hoop that can be raised. It's not the main one, it's a practice one. And so oftentimes pictures are taken of the presider and there's sort of an automatic halo right over his head. But that's also another sort of happy place, is the gym, because the all academy masses are there, all the PE classes are there, but any large assembly gathering of any kind is there. We also have a little theater underneath the stage for productions. But there are just special places on the campus that really make it special.

[21:46] LIZ DEINES: Yeah. When you were talking about the gym and masses, that's where I made final bells, was in the gym, and it was, you know, 700 of my closest friends and relatives. It was packed, and it was just so much fun. And the kids were like, really getting into this. It was like I was looking at the seniors saying, please don't start your chair, don't. Because they were like. And they were up on the bleachers, and I'm like, you know, trying to send brain waves, you know, behave. But, I mean, it was just so much fun. I've had so many fun times there.

[22:29] IRMA AVILA: What a wonderful example, too, that that was that you chose to make your vows there. So the Loretto community was present, but all of the students and faculty, you had family there. We had a huge party afterwards in the patio of El convento. But what a wonderful example that they got to see that. An opportunity to witness that celebration. There aren't as many opportunities like that anymore. When we celebrate our community anniversaries, we'll do it together at the mother house or at an assembly and not so much at the school. And I think that's a memory that people can hold and a real connection to the community. We've been talking about how different it is with a reduced presence of the Loretto community at the school. We have you still there and other community members who work there, but it's getting harder and harder for the Loretto community to sustain a visible presence at the schools. We have three schools still a high school in St. Louis and a k through twelve in Denver, but the number of community members there is smaller. And so one of the challenges for us as community and for the faculty and administration of those schools is how to keep that Loretto spirit alive, how to keep the connection to Loretto, to our pioneering spirit, everything that we stand for, how to keep that strong. I think it's an important thing that we bring to the El Paso community and the communities in the sites where we've taught.

[24:40] LIZ DEINES: Yeah, and if I recall correctly, that question came up several years ago by the administrators, how do we keep this? And that's where the faith, community, justice and respect the values came up that they, you know, they looked at Loretto history and they, you know, talked about what it means, and they distilled those four core values that are now integral to the curriculum and to the presence in the three schools. Any Loretto kid from any one of those schools can spout off what they are and tell you what it means, and because that's. That's what we ground them in. So that, you know, that's one way of keeping Loretto. Loretto forever is that the, you know, that the spirit and that the. I don't know, the thing that makes Loretto happens, and it's. It's, like, organically happening now. You know, the kids that have graduated, a lot of them I'm Facebook friends with and, you know, just seeing what they're doing and the amazing things and how together they are just forms my heart. And they're fun. I mean, they're fun people. So I just feel really blessed that I've had all of my students in my life for this many years and that some of them, you know, are still in touch with me and I can, you know, know what's happening with them.

[26:34] IRMA AVILA: I think that maybe that's true for a smaller school, like, like Loretto Academy. It's Catholic, but it's much smaller. So there's a real sense of family a real connection so that, like I say, you. You can consider yourself a Loretto student. I mean, you know, you're a Loretto wherever we've been throughout New Mexico and here, and there's a way where those. Those values get shared with those students and those students share them with their families. So I think there's just a wider spread of influence that sometimes we might just say, oh, you know, they're 15,000 alums, or that kind of thing. But what you've learned and developed in your school years that you can then share and pass on to your own children and grandchildren. I often wish that my sister's children would have been able to. And grandchildren now to be able to go to Loretto, it seems to me such a positive thing. You're not a Loretto alum, but I don't hold that against you at all. We were laughing this morning because she's a Jesus and Mary Jaguar as opposed to Loretto angel, but we've allowed. Not allowed. We've encouraged her Jaguar ness at the academy all these years.

[28:25] LIZ DEINES: It was pretty funny. When I went to have my interview for the job, I was standing at the bottom of the stairs. We have a bunch of stairs leading up to the main entrance, and I was standing at the bottom of the stairs, and the high school rivalry was still very strong in me. I'm like, it's a job, Liz. You can pay the money to feed your dogs, Liz. It's a job. Suck it up. Yeah. And I was down there fighting with myself for about 10, 15, 20 minutes, and I finally decided, okay, I need the job. So I went up the stairs and made it to the interview in time, and it was. Yeah. But I really. I mean, some of those roots go real deep. You know, it's like, oh, my goodness. Yes.

[29:21] IRMA AVILA: Well, we have lots of faculty that have been there for years and years and years, alums who have then come back to Beveregh faculty, staff, now the president of the academy. There's, like, a heritage thing. One of the things that I've been part of is there's every year, a senior, a senior alum, lunch.

[29:52] LIZ DEINES: Yeah.

[29:53] IRMA AVILA: Okay. I'm losing track of what it used to be called, but you would go to. To lunch with entire families. You might find, you know, my six sisters went there, and, you know, four of the nieces and three of the granddaughters. It is a legacy that we're a part of, that we foster, that we continue. I think there's something truly, truly special about Loretto Academy, and, as you say, just really proud to be a part of the community and a part of that history. We began in San Elisario with a school. And then moved to another school in downtown El Paso before the academy was built. And one of my favorite pictures is one the academy. All built. There are no doors or windows in it, but there's no other houses in the picture. It's at the edge of town. Mother Praxedes was the sister who was in charge of getting it built. And just the vision to have it be there. And the success that it's seen in the years past. As there's a convent building, the chapel, the high school building. We have, you know, the elementary building, the gym, a pool, a cafeteria, a beautiful, beautiful campus. And had a nursing facility also for a long time on campus.

[31:40] LIZ DEINES: Yeah, it's when you were saying about the pictures. I remember looking at those pictures and saying, ah, there's my classroom. And you could see through it. I mean, there was no wall on the other side. There was no hallway. You could see from one side of that wing through to the other side. It was very cool. And, yeah, when mother Praxedes made that, it came out in the newspaper, praxides folly. And they thought she was nuts for, you know, for buying that land and for getting it out there. But, I mean, now it's central. It's central El Paso. I mean, everything has grown up around it.

[32:25] IRMA AVILA: It sits on a hill. And so you can see it. You can often see that star in the tower that's lit up at night. One of the traditions I remember being a part of was on Christmas Eve and Christmas day. All the classes would put up the luminarias in that front circle. And that was always a thing that the neighbors knew to come by there and drive through and see that tradition happening there.

[32:54] LIZ DEINES: Yeah, yeah. And forever. I was sponsor for the sophomore class, and it was a sophomore's responsibility to pick up those stupid things. And so we'd have to have the truck and have the kids, you know, like, throw them in there. And then after a while, they said, oh, no, no, no. You have to separate everything. So we had to, you know, put the sand back in the playground and pull the.

[33:19] IRMA AVILA: Yeah, it was a whole. A whole procedure. Every class, the freshmen put them up. Back in my day, the freshman put them up, the sophomores lit them the first night. The juniors lit them the second. And the seniors took them down. So they filled the truck with sand, and you had the bags there. You walked along behind and placed them and lit them all. And we do that at my sister's house, and I can attest it's a lot of work to do, even a few hundred. But the front circle, that's a tradition I remember as also the seniors get to drive through in decorated cars as their last active business, as it were, at the academy. And that's another thing I remember, too, is all the kids coming outside and the seniors have decorated and throw candy, all kinds of stuff.

[34:18] LIZ DEINES: Hawaiian leis. They've thrown all sorts of stuff over the years.

[34:23] IRMA AVILA: Yes. Cut up their uniforms to hang them from various assendry things.

[34:28] LIZ DEINES: Yep. Yep. That's circle drive. They go through the circle once for every year that they've been there. So they go through four times, and then the last time, they drive away.

[34:39] IRMA AVILA: And they can't come.

[34:40] LIZ DEINES: And then you see them for graduation after that. Well, actually for the baccalaureate mass and then for graduation, there's some really nice.

[34:49] IRMA AVILA: Traditions that I think every Loretto student holds. We also have a. A ring rose assembly where the juniors get their ring and the seniors get a rose. And it's just a beautiful emotional, emotional ceremony. But there are just so many special things that can happen.

[35:11] LIZ DEINES: Yeah. And like with ring rose, we have assigned seating in the gym, and each classification has their place where they sit. The freshmen are front are back right, the sophomores are back left, the seniors are front right, and the juniors are front left. And with ring rows, what they do is they switch places, and it's symbolic that, you know, the seniors are now going to become the freshmen in college, and the juniors are going to be taking the seniors places, so they switch sides, and it's. Yeah, it gets pretty tear jerking sometimes. Yeah.

[35:57] IRMA AVILA: This has been really, really fun, Liz, with all these memories and everything that we've talked about. I'm so grateful that storycorps, and especially Nicole Cobb, gave us this opportunity to share our memories and hopefully to do what we talked about earlier, to have Loretto be Loretto forever here in El Paso and in this area, because we were in New Mexico and Mexico. So just that we remember. Remember fondly. Thank you so very much.

[36:35] LIZ DEINES: Thank you.