Ismael Acle and Katharine Dooley-Hedrick

[00:00] ISMAIL ACLE: My name is Ismail I'm 51 years old. Today's date is November 9, 2011. I am in Hanford, California. My partner is Katharine and she's my one small step partner.

[00:13] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Hi, my name is Katharine I am 35. I'm almost 36. It's November 9 and I'm here in Hanford, California with Ismail who is my one small step conversation partner.

[00:34] ISMAIL ACLE: Katharine what made you want to do this interview today?

[00:39] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: I've been a longtime Valley public radio listener since I was a kid. I think I probably knew the NPR music before anything else. And I've always loved Storycorps. It's been kind of a constant throughout the different places I've lived and just have always found myself being touched. It's always been one of the programs that I stay in my car, in the driveway or in the parking spot to listen to the end of the story. And so when I started to hear one small step being advertised, I just found it really intriguing and I kept thinking about it. It was probably a few months between when I first heard it advertised and when I actually took this step to go online and submit my application. But I was just really intrigued by the prospect of meeting somebody outside of my circle, outside of my network that might kind of push me to think differently or learn something new about my neighbors. So. All right, Ismail what made you want to do this interview today?

[01:52] ISMAIL ACLE: Katharine several reasons, including the ones you mentioned. I enjoy the programming for NPR. A lot of stories that I heard as a man. It made me cry. A couple stories. They're really intriguing stories. But I also wanted an opportunity to share my thoughts and beliefs and have the opportunity to share someone outside my normal circle to see how I can change my mind perhaps about it, have an open mind about different things and see a different point of view than just the ones I'm used to. This is Katie's bio. My name is Katharine I was born and raised in Visalia, California. I went to a small boarding school near Santa Barbara for high school and subsequently went to college near Boston, Massachusetts. I spent many years living and working in the east coast. I started my career as a teacher before moving to work on Capitol Hill. For the past eleven years, I have worked for share our strength and no kidde hungry campaign to connect with kids in the US with food that they need. I am also a navy spouse and a mother of two. I've never met someone that went to a boarding school for high school in this area. Can you share a little bit about that?

[03:30] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Yeah, it certainly was a unique experience, particularly at a visalia, I think was pretty uncommon. I commonly was asked what I did, why I got sent to boarding school, which, thankfully for my circumstance was not the case. I was willful. I chose of my own free will to go. I was very grateful for that opportunity. You know, it was really unique. I was pretty young. I was 13 for the first couple of months of my high school career. And so when I think about it now, particularly as a mom, I think, man, my parents were a little bit crazy to let me go do that. But I think really, it was a pretty remarkably selfless act for them. It was an education that I both, I think, academically and just in terms of kind of life skills education, I was really fortunate to really be pushed, I think, in terms of learning critical thinking skills in a little bit less traditional, maybe kind of environment. Now, in retrospect, I think seems a lot like my college experience, but smaller. So my class was only 63 kids when I graduated. Although I don't keep in touch with many of them on a really regular basis, the shared experience of living through those formative years was pretty remarkable. So anytime I do see any of them, it's like no time has passed and kind of pick it up. But additionally, I think, you know, having the authority figures in my life during that time, from 13 to 1717 and a half, not be my parents, was pretty wonderful for my relationship with my parents because my communication with them was much more. They were such a support to me in any kind of challenges I was going through, because they weren't the primary disciplinarians per se in that time in my life. A lot of the friction that I saw many of my other friends having with their parents in those growing pain times I didn't have with mine, it was a much more kind of. It's not obviously still parent child, but in a different dynamic that allowed for a really wonderful relationship. And of course, we've had our ups and downs like every parent and kid does, but I think it really allowed us to bond and adapt different way that has been really meaningful for me in my life. Okay, this is Ismael's bio. Ismail grew up here in the valley. He's married and is the father of one soon to be teen. Oh, okay. Excuse me. This is Ismael's bio. Grew up here in the valley, married, father of one soon to be teenage daughter, became a citizen in 2005, born in Bolivia, migrated here at the age of seven. I've had a job since high school, and now I am in retail management, I am open to dialogue and always keep an open mind as my views have shifted more to center on a few divisive issues. My parents were self employed and I grew up working in their business and their businesses. Excuse me, Ismail, can you tell me maybe a little bit more? Sorry, I'm just assuming what the question was. Okay. I'm really interested to hear about your experience coming to the US from Bolivia as a young child and then the time kind of becoming a citizenship, becoming a citizen. What that process felt like to you, going from kind of a child in the country to then citizen as an adult.

[07:57] ISMAIL ACLE: Good question. At the age of seven, my parents wanted a better life for all of us. We had a good life in Bolivia from what I remember from being seven years old. We had our own home. My dad worked as a controller for the state, but they wanted something more. My mom had a cousin that lived here. So when I was seven, we flew here. And I just remember I didn't know English. And on the plane I was trying to get up to use the restroom and a passenger next to me kept telling me, no, you can't go because I didn't read English. So I didn't know that the seat belt, that's the memory I have flying here. But we started in a small grocery store outside of Reedley. Growing up here, worked in that business, you know, we didn't have vacations or any fun time per se, or planned for many years because we're trying to develop the business. But growing up here with two older brothers, I wish my parents sent us to boarding school at times, but it was a challenge because we always had the. We came in as the student visas, my parents came in as investors. But within five years, the student visas lapsed. So we kept renewing them. But there's always the fear that we weren't citizens. And at that time, it's really a big fear because we heard of other friends we knew that were having some challenges with immigration. So it was always living in fear that this would not be our life. So I enjoyed it here. I had made a lot of friends growing up in the country. We always stayed out late playing. But in 2005, actually in the year 2001, my parents applied for amnesty. Actually they applied for the immigration amnesty and it was actually 99. And they were approved. But for us, they. Since our status was not illegal per se, we're here. Student visas. It took a longer process for those five years, but in 2005, I became a citizen after holding a green card for five years. And it was one of the most rewarding times for me because this, I've been here since I was seven. This is the only life I knew. We did go back to Bolivia a couple times, but there's nothing there for us. All of my relatives have moved on or died, but this is my life, so it's always a fear of always having to go back, if I will. But becoming a citizen was one of my memorable times. My wife took pictures of me doing it, so it's quite an experience.

[10:47] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: That's wonderful.

[10:53] ISMAIL ACLE: Okay, feel free to move on to the third card.

[10:58] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Whoever wants to ask.

[11:02] ISMAIL ACLE: Katharine tell me about one or two people in your life who have had the biggest influence on you. What did they teach you?

[11:14] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Well, man, that's kind of a hard one. I feel like I've been very fortunate to have a number of folks that have had a pretty big mark. I think probably my grandfather. Sorry, I didn't. No, it's okay. Sorry, I didn't anticipate being emotional. My grandfather, Dick Dooley, he passed away in June of 2019, and he's my dad's dad. I think when I think about. Sorry. As I've gotten older, kindness has been, I think, one of the traits that I value the most, and I think I always have valued it. But, you know, I used to think about intelligence or work ethic or other things more. And I think as I've gotten older and as I've had children, kindness and compassion just have really come to the forefront. And particularly as I think we sometimes see less of it in the public sphere, I want to be clear, because I think people still are very kind in their communities, but we don't maybe hear about that as much. My grandfather lived 92 years, I think. I hope I have that right. I think it was 92 and was married to my grandmother for just almost 70. He lived in the valley his whole life. He served in World War Two. And I can probably count on one hand the number of times I ever heard him say a disparaging word about anybody. And anytime it happened, it always was with a chuckle afterwards or in some sort of almost lighthearted way that made you think, well, he still seems to like that person. You know, he was, I think, for a generation that saw so much, you know, I think, both really good things and very challenging things in the world. He had an uncanny ability to be present and just really seemed to just love his life, and it just exuded from him. I think shortly after he died, I had the honor as the only grandchild that lives, well, not the only as one of the few grandchildren that lives in the area, to go through many photos and gather pictures, and I, there are seven of us grandchildren and was going through and, you know, just almost in every single picture of one of us when we were young, looking through them, my sister and I both noticed, like, he was always looking at us. He was never looking at the camera. And he was so engaged and just, you know, it's been, I guess it's been two and a half years since he passed. And I still think about him all the time. I see some of his, you know, I see my kids and I just hope, I think the joy of life and being present is what I hope that I can kind of continue to pass on of what he taught me. I know it asks for more than one person, but I'm just gonna stick with the one. I don't think I can really top that one. Ismail tell me about one or two people in your life who have had the biggest impact on you.

[15:54] ISMAIL ACLE: I think my parents had a lot of impact on me because, again, we struggled when we first came here. They were a great balance. My dad was always kind of doom and gloom. My mom was always trying to make things fun for us. She planned a trip to Disneyland a few years after we got here. Again, she would always try and make something fun. She would always try to include us. Birthday parties at school, I was known because she would come with a big cake and those little small cokes for everyone to share. So she always made things fun. So growing up, I knew their struggle. So it kind of instilled that in me to be responsible and always do the right thing. Hearing your story, Katharine I remembered my, I met my grandparents on my mom's side, but I never met my grandparents from her dad's side. But my wife had a. Her grandfather was similar to yours. We always looked forward to emails from him because he has a storyteller. And, you know, I had that experience through my wife. Any little, small thing. One day I were visiting, he lived up in Washington state, and I took out the trash. He made it a big deal. Like, Ismail took out the trash. What a great accomplishment. And that's the way the smallest thing, he made you feel like the greatest accomplishments were the smallest things. He had away with words and just seeing the impact it made on my wife. Where she grew up with him, they had a backyard where he created garden, and each one had a different grandchildren's name. Each section of the garden a creek bridge. And it always made it special. He'd cook pancakes and say, this is a taster waster. The first one they would give to the grandkids. I mean, it's just a beautiful experience. And for my wife, it was a big loss when he passed away, and he was a world war two veteran as well.

[18:02] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Just when you were talking about the gardens, it made me think similarly. Right. My grandfather was always working on some new thing for us, like building a little wooden scooter that we could steer with our feet, or they were farmers and taking us out to the field to the freshly baled cotton and just tossing us in the trailer of the cotton. Those experiences, I think, I don't know. I been going through, you know, my grandmother is 94 now. We're so fortunate that, to still have her here with us, but she recently moved out of her home and thinking about the things, you know, she moved into a much smaller apartment. So you're kind of going through, does anybody want these pieces in their home? And talking with my cousins and sister and just feeling so fortunate that I, when I think about my grandparents, I don't think about things. I think about experiences and how they made me feel. And I'm really grateful to that because, you know, things come and go, but it's the way that they. Those. It's the way that those kind of people make you feel that is just so you can't get rid of that. That's just with you always. Let's see. Okay. Ismail could you briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

[19:35] ISMAIL ACLE: I think over the years, my personal political values have changed for experiences I've had in my life. I've always been a conservative, but I've had experiences in my life where it made me think. For example, in 2019, I lost the job unexpectedly. I was laid off, downsized for three months. I was very concerned, how am I going to provide for my family? But again, I've never believed in social services. But I, being home for three months, I applied for benefits, and I was very fortunate to receive medical care because Cobra was not an option for us. It was very expensive, and it changed my mind to. I always thought welfare was not for me. I want to work hard, make ends meet always. My parents taught me that. But those three months were really challenging for me because my wife had a part time job and my daughter would come home, and she has never used to seeing me home before six, I was home all day. But applying for those benefits and understanding the state of California was playing for my health insurance every month made me kind of really more centered towards that, a couple other experiences. Just seeing that, that was one of the major experiences as far as other more impactful times. I was unemployed one other time, but within a month, I was able to find a similar position. But just seeing the conditions of the world kind of made me think twice. For example, for someone being gay, many years ago, I had a conversation with my mom because I had a co worker that shared with me that they were gay. And in my mind, I was thinking, you know, how wrong it was and this and that, but talking to my mom, which is she's very conservative, very religious. And the person told me that they were born that way. And to me, I had a hard time understanding that. I always thought it's life experiences that caused that. But my mom actually 74 years old now, but she kind of said, oh, yeah, they're born, it's born that way. And I had a hard time connecting because the whole time I thought, no, it's an experience. They had a, that turned, that convinced them that that's their life's choices. But again, breaching that kind of made me think again, more towards the center because again, I always being a part rep, conservative, I never thought that they were born. So that kind of changed my mind. Katharine could you describe, briefly describe in your own words, your personal political values?

[22:42] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Sure. I would say certainly identify as progressive. I would say liberal, probably. I know that can be a bad word these days, but yeah, I think I grew up in a family that was very involved in civic service, had an uncle that was elected to Congress when I was four years old. And my parents both worked in state government and several different places along the way. So I think it was kind of a conversation around our dinner tables and family gatherings and holidays was, you know, I think a lot of people say you don't talk about what is it like politics, sex or religion, but I don't know about the sex and religion part. But the politics was front and center in our family, in our family gatherings. And so it took me a while, I think, to come into my own or to really start to, I guess, to live enough life to have my own opinions. And I worked as a teacher for a couple of years right after college. And when I was in college studying to be a teacher, I volunteered at a head start program. And I think I just, throughout my life, I had volunteered and been involved in volunteer service and helping my communities where I could. I think when I was in college and volunteered at a head Start program, which is public, is a subsidized preschool option for low income families to provide childcare. I saw what some kids can go through with the life circumstances that they can face by no fault of theirs. They're just children. I think I saw the real value that the government can play in terms of helping, helping a kid out or a family. And that really helped kind of form some of my thoughts and opinions down the line. I worked for a congressman in 2009 and ten, and the experience of working in government was really formative for me. I think seeing firsthand the complexity of these programs that I think often get very simplified or they get a catchy headline that folks see. But what really, what it takes to, to get laws made and all of the people, the public servants, not the electeds. I mean, the electeds are there, of course, but there's hundreds and thousands of public servants that are just there because they care and they want government to work effectively, have different philosophical views, but are working towards the same, or at the time working towards the same objective. I think still very much the public servants are doing that. And the time that I was there, I still, you know, it was at the time when the Affordable Health Care act was being considered and voted on, and there was a lot of vitriol out there that was coming towards us. I am, frankly, kid. I was a kid working on Capitol Hill and just answering the phone constantly when people were calling. And, you know, the number of times I was told that the person on the other line wanted me to be fired or lose my job, it was very apparent to me how, you know, just deeply held these convictions were. And then some of that anger felt misplaced, that I wanted to try and help, but there was no help that could be offered anyway. So I think that kind of helped. It helped me decide that working there was not the right fit for me. And to help pick a. A cause that I felt I could maybe really focus my efforts and make a difference on. And that's how I ended up at the Noken Hungry campaign, which is my professional job, but I think also very much tied to my political views because it has just really exposed me to families across the country. Here in California that are really working hard, are single parent households, multi parent households with children that are just faced with really unthinkable challenges each month of paying the elect, paying to keep the electricity on or feed their kids, or their kids are eating first and they're not eating, or they're moving from hotel room to hotel room because they can't. There's no affordable housing in their communities. And I think seeing that struggle that unfortunately is facing so many families here and kind of juxtaposed to, you know, I don't know, the past few weeks, there are months the stories of billionaire after billionaire going on a private flight to space. Right. Has just, for me, makes me think, like, this picture doesn't seem right. And so that has inspired and motivated me to try and support causes and people running for office that support a more equitable distribution of resources to support our citizens in this country. So there's some yellow cards in front of you. You can turn all of them over.

[29:06] ISMAIL ACLE: Now if you want.

[29:07] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: And if there's any there, that there's.

[29:13] ISMAIL ACLE: The third one as well.

[29:18] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Or if you've got a question of your own, it's okay if I ask you a question? Go ahead, Ismail, do you ever feel misunderstood by people with different beliefs than you? How so?

[30:01] ISMAIL ACLE: I think so. I think you mentioned liberal, conservative. I think those are labels that we place on each other that really carry a lot of weight that maybe doesn't apply to everybody. It's not everybody wants to be painted with the same brush, but it's different. I am a conservative, but the experiences in my life had kind of put me more towards the center. But deep down, I'm still conservative. You mentioned, you know, feeding the children in schools. I volunteered at my daughter's school, and I saw that. I saw where the service workers would tell us that this is the only meal the child will get all day. So that kind of shifted my view. At the same time, my family has investments where we subsidize, where housing subsidized for families, where there's a great need. But we also saw the other side of that, where there's individuals that take advantage of that situation because they've been there five years and they're still in the same situation. The programs are intended to put them on their feet for five years. During those five years, they didn't do anything to progress towards being independent. So I see both sides of that. And that's kind of why I feel conservative liberals, not really me or you, perhaps, but there's a lot of common grounds, but there's a lot of areas where we can agree to disagree. And that's the other thing that my situation was where we got a letter from the school saying they're going to do school programs during the summer, and I couldn't understand that. But again, talking to the people at school where they said that that's the only meal the child gets the whole day, I support that, and that's before this situation, before being exposed to the school and that information, I probably would have said, well, no, they don't eat free lunch. But now I understand that. So I think that's kind of where misunderstood. At times when someone says, oh, this person's a conservative, they think, oh, he's a Trump supporter. He's wants to cut welfare, wants to lower taxes, give the wealthy tax breaks. But again, working for a big employer like I do, I understand where the tax benefits are there for, because they allow us to employ more people than we normally would have without those benefits. So that's my point of view on that.

[32:27] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: I think sometimes people hear conservative or liberal and then stop listening after that. I agree. I think, right. The labels. I joked with my family when I moved back to Hanford that I was going to set up a booth at Thursday night market. I was like, talk to a liberal. Cause I don't look the way that a lot of people think I, or they'll know me and not know that part, or not think about it. And they're like, oh, she's really nice or kind or whatever. And I think that's true. If you can connect on a human level and be open to a conversation without just turning your ears off when you hear kind of those trigger words that have such, I don't know, baggage associated with them.

[33:14] ISMAIL ACLE: Great point. And I know being in California, we're taxed a lot. And like I said, my life experience has changed my mind because I had opportunities to go to Georgia, I had opportunities to go to another state where there's taxes are lessen. But again, being home for three months, unemployed, where the state assisted me to make ends meet, that made me think again, maybe it is not a bad idea to be taxed so much.

[33:39] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Yeah, I had a similar experience. My father in law came on hard times in Texas, and he was at the time 61, didn't qualify for Medicare. He had some health problems, had worked his whole life, you know, blue collar jobs, but didn't have a lot of savings, didn't have the ability to pay. You mentioned Cobra. Cobra is so expensive, I had to pay for it once. And anyway, we moved him into our home in California and he lived with us for a year and a half, two years, because it was, if we moved him here and he became a California resident, he could be covered undercover California and get health care. And thankfully, he was able to get his health under control and be healthy. He's now back happily living in Texas. But I mean, I don't know what would have happened if he wasn't. If he didn't have that opportunity to come and get healthcare. I think sometimes when it's put in a more personal story or, you know, that firsthand experience, it kind of changes this, changes the narrative a little bit more.

[35:00] ISMAIL ACLE: Katharine is there something about my beliefs that you don't agree with but still respect?

[35:11] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I have just probably just a surface level understanding of your beliefs right now, so I certainly don't want to make too many assumptions. I think you've given several examples of your willingness to change your mind and your openness, which I think is really admirable. I think. I think in terms of kind of the taxation issue that you raised earlier about paying high taxes or I lowering taxes, having tax benefits, I think that's a very complex conversation. Right. I think tax policy is very nuanced and sometimes gets distilled into sort of black and white, tax the rich or don't. And I think there's a lot more nuance to it. While I think I probably have a more liberal stance on where we should have taxes and where they should be higher, I certainly respect the complexity of that issue and that there is a very intellectual conversation to be had that is not, I guess, is less emotional about your value as a human being and is more just a philosophical difference of how you go about, you know, quote unquote, balancing a. Balancing the budget or raising the national debt or all of that, I think is a pretty complex and nuanced discussion to have. And I certainly respect folks that have different opinions on that without thinking they're a bad person or anything. Questions? Unless you have more of your own.

[37:11] ISMAIL ACLE: Sure.

[37:14] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: While I was thinking, could you ask Ishmael? And you have to repeat it, but.

[37:21] ISMAIL ACLE: I'm, like, thinking about the future of the US.

[37:24] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: What are his fears and concerns? Sure. Ismail, when you think about the future of our country, what do you see as your biggest concerns or fears for the future?

[37:40] ISMAIL ACLE: It's a great question. Just seeing the way the country is today. I'm concerned with the homeless. We go to Fresno once a week, and we see the situation just getting worse and worse. We just got back from Vegas over the weekend. Even though it's a bigger city, it seems like they have a bigger control on the homelessness. Gas prices, I'm concerned with that. The stock market, being with three employers. I have a 401k. It hasn't really impacted it, but from the beginning of the year, it's really benefited my 401k greatly. But I'm concerned about that, too, because it's a day by day right now. It's kind of like a roller coaster. So the condition of country, and I think we're more divided now than we've ever been. That's why I love this opportunity because I think we've been divided for many years, not just since 2016. So I love the opportunity to kind of share our thoughts, but I am concerned with the condition of the country right now. I'm a big football fan. Where before there would be one fight here and there, but now it just seems every weekend there's a fight because people, even though it's team something, maybe in my opinion, minuscule, but to them it's a big deal. So they're really hurting each other over belief on a team. But for politics, it's a bigger scale. And you think if they're fighting over a team, they're going to fight over something else. So again, I think we're getting more divided than ever before. And that's my biggest concern with the country. The direction it's going is I'm concerned with. I wish we had more stability. I wish that the stock market would also be more stable because I want to, after I'm gone, I want to make sure my family's provided for. And that's my biggest fear. The economy. A lot of jobs out there, but nobody wants them. Where before that was the opposite problem. We had a lot of people looking for jobs, but nobody, nobody was hiring, but also flip sides. So a lot of things are concerning.

[39:57] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Me and that's miss, what do you, I hear you about the divided nature. I think that was part of what drew us both, I think, to this opportunity here. What do you, do you have any ideas or thoughts about what any kind of resolution or way to work towards a less divided country would be?

[40:25] ISMAIL ACLE: I think there needs to be more dialogue. I think we're, it used to be the silent majorities quiet, but now it seems like everybody's a majority and nobody's quiet. Everybody's expressing their opinions. I think these situations are a big step forward because we understand each other a little bit more. But sometimes it's the smaller percent of our groups that are the loudest that are causing all the turmoil, where majority of us would probably get along, majority of us would not get into the heat of debate, where we would say things we regret. But I think there is a small percent in our groups that maybe are more vocal than we are that are dividing the country even. Furthermore, could you ask the same question to Katy about, like, how solutions to the division. Katharine how do you feel we can solve this division that we're both sharing and seeing?

[41:24] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Gosh, I wish I knew. I think for me, I have two small kids, a three and a half year old and an almost one year old. Anytime I start to just feel totally overwhelmed with where we're at, I look at my three year old and think about the world through her eyes, and I think she's just the most accepting, loving human being that has ever existed. Which is not true, because I think every three year old is pretty much that way. And that gives me hope. Hopefully we don't screw them up too much by the time they get to be adults to mess it up. But I do think that as much as we can try and encourage human interaction in an authentic way is a good step towards that. I think. I don't know what the answer to. I think the Internet has done such wonderful things for the world in a lot of ways, also think it has completely corrupted the world in a lot of other ways. And so I don't really know. I think we're starting to grapple as a country and as a world a little bit more seriously with the kind of social media conundrum of information sharing and echo chambers and creating our own safe bubbles, which turns out, only reinforce what you already know and don't really push you to learn anything new. And I don't know. You know, I think the typical reaction from the left is to regulate, regulate. And, you know, the right is always, or I shouldn't say always, but is often pretty resistant to any kind of regulation. And I'm frankly not sure that regulation, I don't know how you effectively regulate this because it's a global phenomenon. Right? We're only the US, so who knows what we can really impact. But I do think to the extent that we can foster conversations like this and encourage the next generation to be open and able to be critical thinkers and, you know, question things, but also accept facts when they're presented and reevaluate. I mean, I think I just have to have hope in that because I don't know where else. Where else to look at this point.

[44:08] ISMAIL ACLE: No, and I agree with you. I think before I would get a birthday card in the mail, now it's a text saying happy birthday or a phone call. It's nice to hear someone's voice telling you happy birthday, but nothing text saying happy or emoji saying happy birthday. And I think we became less personal and, you know, maybe it's my age or what I see my daughter, too. She'll be texting all day but never have a conversation with somebody. And that concerns me, too.

[44:35] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's, you know, there's this pressure on young people to get all the likes or have a really huge number of followers. And I think in the drive to have that really large group of superficial understanding of people where missing the like as a. I don't know, as an almost 36 year old, I would way rather have a group of four people that know me deeply, that know the true me that I don't feel I have to put a show on for, then have 500 people that will give me a like for some very carefully curated picture that I've put on the Internet. But I think there's a lot of pressure on young people to have this network of, I don't know, superficial understanding. And I hope that we can find some sort of balance as we move forward. So those blue cards in front of you are your closing questions. So we've got about five minutes left. If you want to choose one of.

[45:46] ISMAIL ACLE: Those or if you've got one of.

[45:48] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Your own, feel free to. Well, we just kind of touched on what our. Well, I guess we didn't a little bit. Hopes for the future. I'm going to skip that one. All right, Ismail, is there anything you learned about me today that surprised you?

[46:15] ISMAIL ACLE: When I read your bio and just talking to you now, it just, to me, it seemed like military was always very supportive or aligned themselves with conservatives. And that kind of, after hearing you out and listening to your explanations, to the several topics we discussed, how do you feel about that? Do you get that a lot where your grandparents were military, you're in a military situation, but you consider yourself a liberal, which I know it's not exactly what everything liberal means, but how do you feel about that?

[46:55] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Yeah, I think a lot of people make a lot of assumptions about me when they know that I'm a military spouse. And I guess I will say, I will say that in my experience, there's a lot of people that are conservative in the military. And I think there's also a lot of people that aren't, a lot of people that just are quiet about politics in general, because when you're a uniformed service person, that's your job. It's not political in the service. But I've also had the experience many times because I kind of take the approach that I do not hide my beliefs or that I am politically active. I'm not always broadcasting like hey, look at me. I'm a Democrat, but I am not ashamed of my beliefs. And so I often, people know that I'm politically engaged. And I've often had the experience at military gatherings, not like formal in uniform gatherings, but other gatherings where someone will kind of quietly, like in the corner, they, like, seek refuge almost with me, that they're, they've identified me as a safe space and kind of a quiet place to say. I also, I think that, too, but I don't really have a place for it. And I think the more that we can just be open in the truest sense of that, right, where you can still care about me as a human, even if you completely disagree with some of the beliefs that I hold. I think we've gotten to a place where we're so entrenched and our political beliefs are so interwoven into what we, our deeply held identities. Like, it's like you can't disentangle them for a lot of people. And I just think in my experience, there are certain lines that I think can be crossed where I just can't go there. But more often than not, it's not black and white. I mean, there's so many facets to people that I think if the person on the other side of the conversation is willing to engage in a conversation, then I'm always open to talk about it. So I'm not going to say, like, oh, no, I'm sorry, you voted for x, Y and z, and I can't talk to you. Right. I mean, if you're willing to engage in a conversation with me, then what's the point of being human if you're not going to do that. Right. And so, yes, I think a lot of people make a lot of assumptions. And sometimes in some circumstances, I just kind of let it slide. It's not worth it. But in certain circumstances, I definitely will correct the record. You've answered that question. Do you have another question for Ishmael? Sure. Goshen, I guess you mentioned that you have a daughter that's almost a teenager. And I wonder kind of if being the father of a young woman has shaped any of your, if you had any expectations or thoughts that have been pushed or challenged, I guess, in your parenting of a young person in this stage of their life.

[50:38] ISMAIL ACLE: Yes, it's one of the biggest challenges of my life right now. She just turned 13 October 13. So she's, you know, I want to provide everything I didn't have. But at the same time, I'm looking and saying, I don't want to spoil her because I want her to be independent, not wait for me or my wife to do everything for her. She's very big on TikTok, so to me, I'm concerned because there's stuff on TikTok, some content that I don't agree with, and I don't want that to influence her, but I want to make sure I'm doing everything right by her. You know, my biggest challenge, she's an only child, so I try and be that older sibling she never had or the younger, not really the younger sibling, but I want to give her everything I didn't have, of course. But at the same time, I'm very proud that I taught her how to throw a football. And at school, they wanted her to be quarterback, even though there's other players in the team. So I'm very proud of that. But at the same time, I'm concerned because she's exposed to a lot more things than I was at that age, and I know she'll always make the right decisions. And so right now, she's putting a lot of pressure on herself to get into high school. That's in for not the gifted, but it's really hard to get into. So every day she's telling me what she's, her plan. She has a plan every day, what she's going to do to get to that point, to be able to attend that. So for me, I want to support her everywhere I can, but at the same time, I kind of want to back off and let her make those decisions, because sometimes you got to make bad decisions to learn from them. Otherwise, like me, my parents were very conservative with me. So, you know, high school, I went to private high school when I got to college. It's like an eye opening experience, like, things I was never exposed to, I got exposed to. And so for her, I want to make sure she has all the tools needed to be successful, and I want to make sure that when I'm gone, she's. Well, she has a good life.

[52:55] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Well, it sounds like she's really lucky to have you. Well, that's time. How is that for both of you? I think it's really interesting. I really am so glad that this program exists.

[53:11] ISMAIL ACLE: I enjoyed it. I didn't know what to expect. I mean, I read the pamphlet, but, you know, it gave me perspective, and I enjoyed it. Kind of feel like a weight off my chest, because, again, like I shared with you and you mentioned at work, at even some family circles, you can't discuss anything. So, no, I enjoyed it.

[53:34] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Well, makes me wish there was more, like. I wish there were more opportunities.

[53:39] ISMAIL ACLE: Yes.

[53:39] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: For, like, safe, you know, safe conversation.

[53:42] ISMAIL ACLE: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[53:44] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: Well, working on that.

[53:45] ISMAIL ACLE: Yes.

[53:46] KATHARINE DOOLEY-HEDRICK: They're doing a good job.