"It's interesting to listen to her and realize she's doing things so radically different from what I did... I'm glad she's excited about it"

00:00 It is an exciting moment for a graduate student to learn they have been selected for a one-year Schlanger Fellowship to support their scientific ocean drilling research. This occasion is even more special when a fellow learns that a family member once sailed with Dr. Schlanger himself. My name is Laura Guertin, and I sailed as an onboard outreach officer for Expedition 390. For this episode of Tales From the Deep, I speak with Virginia Tech graduate student and Schlanger Fellow Amy Hagen, along with her father, Dr. Rick Hagen. Amy shares her scientific ocean drilling research and interests, while Rick describes his time on an ocean drilling expedition and a video he has from a different expedition where he sailed with none other than.

00:54 I'm Amy Hagen. I am a geochemist and I'm a PhD candidate at Virginia Tech. I just finished my fourth year.

01:03 I'm Rick Hagen. I'm got a PhD in marine geology and geophysics from the University of Hawaii. I'm now retired. After working in various places, I finished my career at the Naval Research Lab in Washington, DC.

01:19 Rick, let's go ahead and start with you for this story because you have had some involvement with scientific ocean drilling. Do you recall when you were first aware of these drilling vessels or this core material? How did you become involved?

01:34 Well, I was first aware of the ODP when I got to graduate school in Hawaii in about 1984. And I had done my undergrad in Wisconsin, and I wasn't very aware of what was going on in the oceans being from Wisconsin at that point. But at the University of Hawaii, at one point, I was asked to go on an ODP cruise. It was to the Ontong Java Plateau. Lauren Kroenke at the University of Hawaii asked me to come along and run the Underway Geophysics Program on the ship. So that's what I did. that was in 1990, I believe.

02:16 I believe it was ODP Leg 130 that sailed from.

02:19 That sounds familiar, yes.

02:20 January to March in 1990.

02:23 Out of Guam, yeah, to the Ontong Java Plateau. So that was my first real experience with ODP. And I remember being very impressed with all the synergy of the scientists on board. You got to see everybody doing things in real time. And the daily science meeting, you got to see what had happened yesterday, what everybody knew from yesterday. It was very exciting. Yeah.

02:49 It's such a unique physical environment to be in because you have all these subdisciplines relating to the geosciences in one space, all working at the same time. And as you mentioned, there were these daily meetings where you could share your results instantaneously.

03:05 Right.

03:06 As a PhD student, you kind of get narrowed in on your own thing. But when you go on the cruise, you see all these disciplines working together, you know. And since I did underweight geophysics, when we were stationary drilling, I didn't have anything to do. So I would help people. Like, I helped with physical properties. I would help with, you know, core logging and other stuff like that, whatever anybody needed help with. So it was a very great experience for me to to do that.

03:34 And on JOIDES Resolution at that time, it was also scientists from across the globe, I understand, not just the United States.

03:41 Oh, yes, yes. We had, I don't remember everybody, but we had, you know, Germans and French, I think, and people from all over the place, you know.

03:51 What an incredible opportunity to be able to connect with the international community. And as you said, even gained some new skills while you were in the middle of the ocean because you were helping out other people while you were waiting to get your own data.

04:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I learned a lot about describing cores and stuff at that point, which I hadn't really done as part of my work at that point. I later did, so it helped me a lot.

04:14 And you also sailed when you were at University of Hawaii. I understand on a cruise in 1988 with a gentleman known as Dr. Seymour Schlanger. Can you tell us a little bit about him?

04:27 Yeah, it was interesting when Amy told us she had got the Schlanger Fellowship. I told her, well, I knew Seymour Schlanger. I sailed with him at one point. And so then when she was home, I think for Thanksgiving, I showed her a video from that cruise. So she got to actually see Schlanger in action. It was kind of interesting. But yes, in 1988, I was asked to go on a cruise on the research vessel Moana Wave, University of Hawaii ship out of Guam. they needed some watch standards. So I said, sure, I'll go. And Sy Schlanger was one of the co-chairs. My former master's advisor, Fred Duennebier was the other co-chief. So we flew to Guam, and first thing we did was the science crew went on a field trip with Sy Schlanger. He took us around Guam looking at carbonates. And, you know, I remember he really knew his stuff, and he knew a lot about Guam and a lot about carbonates, and the cruise was to the Marshall Islands. We were dredging and doing side scan sonar and multibeam bathymetry to map out the geos and then dredging them to collect samples that one of my fellow graduate students at Hawaii used for his PhD along with some of Sy Schlinger's graduate students. So that's how I knew Sy Schlanger I spent a month with him at sea.

05:55 It makes for an interesting connection here. So, Rick, you have a daughter, Amy, at Virginia Tech, who is currently one of these Schlanger Fellows. And so maybe let's switch the conversation here to Amy. Can you share a little bit first how you ended up being a geologist as well?

06:10 Yeah. Obviously, I always knew geology existed because both my parents were geologists, and we always had rocks in our house, and I'd hear These cool stories about my parents traveling all around the world doing research. And I thought it was cool, but I wasn't convinced it was for me at first. I wasn't really captivated by geophysics. So I was interested in science though. So I did lots of biology stuff in high school. And then when I got to college, they offered geology classes and I was like, well, I'll take one and see what the hype is all about. So I took an introductory class and then I also did research right away in paleontology and geochemistry. So I think that really set me up seeing another side of geology that really fit with my interests. So that's kind of how I ended up as a geologist. And then I always knew IODP existed because of my parents and learning about the end Cretaceous extinction and the impact crater and IODP's role in that stuff. And I was always interested in going on a cruise, but it didn't seem like it really fit with the research I was doing. So I kind of just put it in my back pocket and kept my eyes open if there was ever a cruise that might fit with my interests. And then eventually there was one. So got lucky there.

07:36 And which cruise did you go on?

07:38 Well, I guess I didn't actually get to go on the cruise. Unfortunately, it was a small mission specific platform. So they couldn't take everyone. But it was Expedition 389, the Hawaiian Drowned Reefs. So I got to be in the science party, and we all spent a month in Bremen together, working with the course. But unfortunately, I don't actually have that experience of sailing on the ship. Hopefully someday I'll get to go to sea.

08:03 But importantly, you are still part of the scientific party, and you have access to these amazing samples and can continue to collaborate and work with others.

08:13 Yeah, yeah, it was a great experience. Feels really good to be included at such a early career stage. Yeah, like you said, I'll have these, this access and these collaborators for, you know, the next however many years it takes for us to all finish our work. So, yeah, it was really fun in Bremen with everyone.

08:32 Amy, I do want to ask you a little bit more specifically about your research and what you're doing as you're still moving through your graduate program at Virginia Tech. But Rick, were you excited when Amy told you she was going to be a geology major in college?

08:46 Yeah, we were surprised because like she said, she never had shown any real interest. I thought she was going to go into biology, which was fine. I was happy that she was going into the sciences. But yeah, when she got to Smith and got into that little research project, that seemed to really excite her and get her interested. And so my wife and I were both happy to see that she had found something that she really was into and liked and that it was geology.

09:15 So Amy, share a little bit about the passion that you have for the research that you're doing right now.

09:22 Yeah, so I, you know, I have this IODP side of me, but I also have sort of a Cambrian evolution and geochemistry side. I guess I'm just excited by different questions about how ocean conditions affect animals, sort of no matter the time period. And I like using and investigating different tools, you know, how I can investigate these questions. So I use all sorts of different chemical proxies and isotopes and nutrient proxies and things. So I just like investigating things. I really like going in the field, so I do that a lot with my deep time Cambrian side of things and then working with the cores is kind of similar. I still get to access the rocks and I just, you can't go look at them in our crop because they're under the ocean. So yeah, it's been really fun exploring a different project in sort of more recent time. And I like how it gives me a different perspective on Cambrian. Cambrian Earth was way different than the Pleistocene Earth and but there's still connections you can make and similar questions you can ask about both of them. So I really like that.

10:36 I appreciate how you mentioned there are so many different technologies out there to access all these different parts of planet Earth. As you mentioned, some of the information we're looking for is in the deep ocean. Some of it might be accessible by outcrop. There's all these different pieces that are forming the story for whatever question we're trying to investigate. As a Schlanger Fellow, you did submit a proposal for a specific research question. Can you talk about that in a little bit more detail?

11:09 Perhaps some context about my cruise-related expedition-related research is necessary first because the two, the Schlanger and the post-cruise research are connected. But I set out originally with my post-Cruise research to study nitrogen isotope variation in the corals during glacial and interglacial cycles in the Pleistocene with the idea that perhaps changes in climate or changes in weathering affected the nitrogen cycle. And given that nitrogen is a critical nutrient for animals, maybe that negatively or positively impacted the coral reefs around Hawaii. in a way that we can study now using nitrogen isotopes from the corals themselves. So that was the idea with the post cruise research, which is still happening. And then for the Schlanger, I thought it would be really cool to add in phosphorus because nitrogen and phosphorus are two, I guess if you count carbon, there are three critical nutrients and phosphorus is often considered the limiting one. 'cause you can only get it into the ocean through weathering. So sort of a similar idea that the glacial cycles might have impacted how much phosphorus was available to the corals and maybe controlled how they were living. So we can study this using, compared to nitrogen, pretty easy methods to sort of quantify the amount of phosphorus contained in the corals. see if there were any changes caused by the glacial climate fluctuations. So yeah, those are my two projects.

12:51 And I can tell you're excited about them. I see you smiling as you're describing this research and that you are clearly engaged with this and are looking forward to getting these answers. Rick, as you're hearing Amy describe this research, and I know you're retired now, but does this make you wish just a little bit, wow, if I could get back out to sea and I could still get some data and still be involved? Amy is doing an amazing job describing how exciting it is to be a geoscientist and to learn about her planet. Does it make you miss that a little bit?

13:25 A little bit. It's interesting to listen to her and realize that she's doing this stuff that's so radically different from what I did. I don't even really understand what she's talking about, but I'm glad she's excited about it. And it sounds like she's really digging into some interesting questions.

13:48 And again, this goes back to we were asking different questions at the time back in the 1980s and 1990s of what to investigate and what instrumentation did we have to get this data and what did it mean? And the Schlanger Fellowship was not around back then. We had Dr. Schlanger himself that was out there doing this work and making these contributions. Amy, what does it mean to have a Schlanger Fellowship and to be named one of the fellows this year?

14:15 Yeah, it's definitely a big honor. I applied last year and I didn't get it, which is fine, but it feels really good to know that I just need to make a few changes and now my project is ready for that to be undertaken and for me to get that honor. So it's something that I've wanted for a couple years now. So it feels really good to get it, to know that the community thinks my project is cool and thinks I can do it. Yeah, and like getting to see the videos of Dr. Schlanger, like it's pretty cool. He seems like a good guy and was well respected and a good scientist. So, you know, it's really great that this program exists and is honoring him and yeah, happy to be a part of it.

15:02 Are there any other pieces of information you would each like to share? Amy, you did mention to me that your mom is also a geologist and actually also has a connection to Dr. Schlanger. That your mom sailed on a site survey cruise in 1981 for Leg 89 in preparation of DSDP expedition that took place in 1986. And for that DSDP leg, Dr. Schlanger was one of the co-chiefs. So there's yet another connection in your family to Dr. Schlanger and scientific ocean drilling. This really is a family affair.

15:42 Yeah, she told me that they did the site survey and then later it ended up, maybe that wasn't the primary goal, but later it ended up being useful for the IODP expedition and Dr. Schlanger was involved. I'm not sure if they met and knew each other very well, but yeah, my mom sailed and did those things as well.

16:03 Where do you hope to go in the future, Amy? Do you have future plans to continue working with scientific ocean drilling samples? I know you're still in graduate school, and it's hard to think beyond that final dissertation, but where do you see your future?

16:18 Yeah, it's an interesting question right now. I would say I'm enjoying my experience. I'm enjoying working with the IODP samples. I'll say the expedition I was on was kind of an unusual one, and there aren't a lot of other expeditions like it, drilling carbonate reef material. So I wish in the future we could do more of that, and I would be happy to be involved. I'm not sure that'll end up happening, but yeah, I'd be happy to do more drilling of carbonate material. I know there's a few cores in the archives that are composed of carbonate. There's a Great Barrier Reef expedition. a while ago. I'd potentially be interested in working with some of the archived material as well. Yeah, I think it's a good skill to have. I definitely want to stay involved. I also still love my Cambrian redox proxy work, so maybe some future where I get to do both would be ideal, hopefully as a faculty at a university somewhere.

17:23 Well, you are certainly on your way, and you've had an incredible foundation and introduction to geology, even though You probably didn't realize all the stories that your dad had been telling you about when he was sailing, and it's all led to you having an incredible, successful career already as a graduate student. Again, congratulations on being named a Schlanger Fellow. And I certainly look forward to seeing where your future journey lands you. Thank you both so much for your time today.

17:55 You're welcome. Thanks.