Jack Howe and Shelly Fraiser

[00:02] JACK HOWE: The interview id is DDv 002337. My name is Jack. I am 66 years old. Today's date is March 9, 2023. I'm in Richmond, Virginia, and I'm here with my one small step partner, Shelley. Am I reading her bio?

[00:39] SHELLEY FRAISER: Shelley it's your turn to read the tape. My name is Shelley I am 42 years old. Today's date is March 9, 2023. I am in Fort Worth, Texas. I'm here with my one small step partner, Jack.

[00:56] JACK HOWE: Great. So I'm reading Shelly's bio. I'm a married mom of three teenage boys, one biological and two brothers adopted from foster care. I work in accounting and moved from an urban to a rural area a couple of years ago. I have four dogs and three cats, all rescues, plus chickens, turkeys, guinea fowl, and goats. I attend church with my family weekly, and we enjoy camping together at state parks. My oldest adopted son is joining the army soon.

[01:35] SHELLEY FRAISER: And Jack's bio says, I was born and raised in Hudson, New York. I received a bachelor's degree in education and taught and served as an administrator in four different schools districts in New York for 34 years. My wife, a teacher for 20 plus years, retired in 2012, and I moved to Richmond, Virginia, in 2015 to be closer to our adult children and grandchildren. I am a Catholic and registered Democrat. Family and my faith are important to me.

[02:17] JACK HOWE: There's a question in the chat. Okay, I see the question. Why did you participate in one small step? I'll just go ahead and answer that. I enjoy listening and talking and meeting new people and sharing my life experiences and hearing about other people's life experiences. But also probably about ten years or so ago, I purchased a book. Listening is an act of love that you probably recognize from StoryCorps. And I was intrigued with the going into mobile interview places where people just recorded snippets of their life. And I just. I found them very intriguing, very interesting. And to me, when I heard of StoryCorps for my daughter, actually, it sounded very similar to have an opportunity to share life experiences with people. So that's kind of what brought me here today.

[03:05] SHELLEY FRAISER: Cool. I'm similar to you. I enjoyed. I actually enjoy talking to people with different beliefs, and I know some people don't like that it can get controversial, but I enjoy, you know, getting other people's perspectives, and I'm able to respectfully disagree. My husband and I have actually hosted some exchange students from other countries. We've had some mormon kids over to our house for dinner, and I keep in touch with one of my former college professors who's a practicing jew and also a Democrat. And I enjoy just talking and working through things with people, you know, in a respectable, kind manner.

[03:46] JACK HOWE: Yes, yes, I agree. Totally. Listening and being respectful about that process is very important. Totally. And I want both of you to.

[03:55] SHELLEY FRAISER: Have as much context about the other.

[03:58] JACK HOWE: Before you start sharing maybe some of.

[04:00] SHELLEY FRAISER: Your, your own perspectives and views.

[04:02] JACK HOWE: Shelley, would you mind starting this converse, this question, tell us a little bit about your upbringing.

[04:11] SHELLEY FRAISER: Yeah, okay. I was raised with both parents. Mom, Dad. I was the oldest of two sisters. We always went to church every Sunday. We've gone to all kinds of churches, different denominations. I was actually confirmed in a lutheran church and baptized in a lutheran church. And currently my husband and my husband kind of grew up as a holy roller. So you can imagine the difference with a Lutheran and a holy roller type Christian. We kind of settled on non denominational Baptists. But my faith has always been very important to me. I've always grown up in church. I'm a first generation college graduate. I have a degree in finance and economics and a couple years ago started pursuing a master's in public administration. And I think those are the key parts. For those of us who might not know what is a holy roller? I would say that's kind of a slang term, and I don't mean that in derogatory manner by any way, but you know, kind of pentecostal type service where people may start speaking in tongues during the service, people may get filled with the Holy Spirit and fall down. So very different from the Lutheran where people just kind of sit and stand when they're instructed and, you know, it's pretty quiet. And what about you, Jack?

[05:54] JACK HOWE: Well, as I mentioned, I was born and raised in Hudson, New York, which is a small town along the Hudson river, probably about 2 hours directly north of New York City. So very small, you know, a county of less than 60,000, a town of about 6000, so a very small area, six children. I was number five. So it was a big family, all raised in Hudson and a very active and vibrant neighborhood of a bunch of other families from all different denominations. We went to catholic school through junior high and then to the local public school as the catholic school closed, as many did in New York during the late sixties, early seventies. I had a great upbringing. My parents were both working parents. My mom never even learned to drive. She just was home at lunch, was home after school, worked in a music store, later worked as a bus aide. My father was a postman and then a culligan man. So you know, we certainly weren't. We were rich as a family. We were rich in the experiences that we had in life. But in terms of money, looking back, maybe there wasn't a lot of it, but it, living through it, I thought was just fine. I really, really didn't want for anything. Church was always important, and as a Catholic, I struggle and struggle with guilt when I don't do the things I'm so doing. I've been lately in and out of the church in that some of the things coming up politically, nationwide, and historically just to challenge my beliefs, but I always find my way back. But as important as family, coming from a big family, had lots of brothers and sisters. Our small town had a lot of aunts and uncles and cousins that were around. So that has remained very important in my life. My wife, very similar. So we raised our kids in the same town that we grew up in. They went to many of the same places we did, same high school and all those things. But when they moved to the DC northern Virginia area and we retired, they were just too far away, especially when they had kids. So that's. That's what brought us down here. So certainly faith is important, but, you know, hand in hand with that is our family and love being around our grown children, our two, our son in law, daughter in law, and our four grandchildren. It's just wonderful. Life is good, and I'm very appreciative of that.

[08:10] SHELLEY FRAISER: And, Jack, how were politics spoken about in your childhood upbringing, and was there an issue that was particularly important for your family?

[08:22] JACK HOWE: Yeah, you know, my family, my parents, I was born around the time when John F. Kennedy was very popular, so they were very much Kennedy Democrats, and I was kind of raised that way. My parents were involved at the local level, serving on the democratic committee, which would, you know, get people to enroll but also get people to run for office. My mother served as an older woman in one of the wards in our district. Later on, when I moved to a town right outside of Hudson, I served on the local council as a Democrat in a. In a pretty Republican. Oop, I lost somebody. She's Shelley still with us?

[08:59] SHELLEY FRAISER: I'm still here.

[09:00] JACK HOWE: Okay. I served on the town board of my local town for. During the Bill Clinton years. You know, there was never really one issue. I think abortion overhangs everything when you talk to early Catholic or to my parent age Catholics, but it wasn't really just any one issue, although my parents, may they rest peacefully now, and I'm sure they are, with some of the things that have come up now, there would probably be some pretty lively discussions.

[09:33] SHELLEY FRAISER: And what about you, Shelley? I was very different. My family really wasn't involved in politics. My maternal grandparents would sometimes get family gatherings, casually ask my dad, hey, who are you going to vote for? I don't think my parents really. I don't remember them even voting, to be honest, which is very sad to me. I think it's important, you know? So there wasn't really much politics in my house growing up. As I've gotten older, as Jack, you said, things have really kind of changed, and everything is very in our face. And so I'm kind of the one now at family dinners to bring things up. But my mom really doesn't like it. She's emotional about things, and she doesn't have, like, people to have disagreements, even if they're amicable disagreements, you know, she'd rather just avoid the topic completely, which is hard, because it's become very important to me. I love America, and I think what we're doing is great. So.

[10:46] JACK HOWE: Yes, I do, too. I agree with you. And it's difficult when you try to talk with someone, family members, especially, if there's a certain level of. Of comfort that's not there and maybe some resistance to talk about political or any social issues, because there are a lot of them, and all you have to do is turn on any electronic device, and we are bombarded by them. So I think it certainly is very healthy to be able to talk about them.

[11:10] SHELLEY FRAISER: Yes, I agree.

[11:15] JACK HOWE: What incorrect assumptions do you think people.

[11:18] SHELLEY FRAISER: Make about you or people you're close.

[11:21] JACK HOWE: To based on the way you identify politically? Shelley.

[11:27] SHELLEY FRAISER: Right winger, conspiracy theorists, white supremacists, racists, all of those things. I love people, and I can disagree with people. I believe people are. We're equal. We're all God's children. I'm not an extremist. You know, people are just people, and it's okay if we have different viewpoints.

[11:56] JACK HOWE: I agree, Shelley, 100%. I'm so glad to hear you say that. I definitely agree with what you were saying about agreeing, and we all have different viewpoints. And to your point, I guess I would be the other side. When people hear, I'm a Catholic from New York especially, and I mentioned, like, candidate, they think, oh, boy, here's another liberal Democrat way over there with these crazy ideas. And when we left New York to relocate in Richmond, Virginia, you know, which is kind of the seat of the Confederacy, people said to me, jack, you can go down there. Just don't say anything politically, because you're going to get upset with you, but it couldn't be farther from the truth. There's wonderful people everywhere, and there are certainly wonderful people here. And I don't go around talking about politics or religion every time I open my mouth and I would say, on the scale and the continuum, I'm not far left, probably not in the middle. If there's a moderate liberal or more moderate than liberal, that's probably where I fall. I'm sure if you and I had longer discussion about politics and some of the issues going on, we'd probably find more we agree on, or at least could listen to and exchange ideas than things we don't agree on. Because as you're saying, you're not far right. I certainly am not far left, either.

[13:09] SHELLEY FRAISER: You both raised families, and I'm curious.

[13:13] JACK HOWE: What ways do you wish you had.

[13:16] SHELLEY FRAISER: Been raised differently, and how do you.

[13:18] JACK HOWE: Think your parenting styles differed from the ones that you were subjected to as children?

[13:30] SHELLEY FRAISER: I'll let Shelley take a first stab at it. Well, my father was an alcoholic, and he wasn't very involved in the parenting. That's changed. He completely quit drinking a couple years ago, and I've forgiven him, and I'm actually closer to him than I've ever been. But I've always been very careful about drinking. I'll have a drink with glass of wine with dinner. I don't want to put my kids through that emotional. I don't want to say trauma, because I was never abused or anything, but it was stressful. There was disagreements over that, obviously. Really, I agree more with my dad than you would think. He was kind of the tough. He taught me a good work ethic because he worked in management, and that's valuable. I think a lot of the younger millennials nowadays don't have the same work ethic, and that was something my dad really instilled in me. You know, you don't ask for vacation time until you've been in a job for six months. Just things like that. Those are things I try to emphasize and not being entitled. You know, there's a lot more pleasure when you work for something, you save up for it, and you kind of defer the gratification there. I find myself kind of repeating a lot of the things. My sister is more like our mom, and I'm more like my dad, and I just repeat a lot, and sometimes I just think, wow, I just sounded exactly like my dad.

[15:19] JACK HOWE: Well, Shelley, I'm glad to hear your parents are still with you, right?

[15:23] SHELLEY FRAISER: Yes, they are.

[15:24] JACK HOWE: Oh, that's good. Well, call them and hug them and keep them tight, because my dad died in 88, you know, decades ago, and my mom about 20 years ago. So I'm glad you still have yours. You know, it's so interesting to hear what you led with. I was number five in a family of six kids. So not the middle, not the first, not the end. I was the blur in the middle somewhere, and maybe always struggled for attention, I don't know. But it was just different being in the middle. Maybe the peacemaker. My parents were good people, good, solid people. And it's interesting, led with the alcoholism part, because my dad probably drank more than he should have. And looking back at it now, he probably was an alcoholic. There was absolutely no abuse that I was ever aware of, certainly not towards me. It probably sent him to an early, earlier grave. He died of a congestive heart failure, just a weakened heart from years of just not taking care of himself. And I guess what I remember about him the most, he was a great man. You know, everybody loves a dad, but he was just a stoic Irishman who just never said much of anything. You know, he didn't say too much to stroke you on the things that you've done well or too much on the other side. He just pretty much was dad, sitting in his easy chair, giving us a quarter when we wanted to go out and get a, you know, something to Kool Aid or something. He was. He was a good man. And I. And my mother was wonderful. She was opposite. She lit up the room and she walked into it. She had friends all over a small town. Even to this day, even though I don't live home anymore, when I go back to Hudson, it's always, oh, I loved your mom. Oh, Jeanette. She was such a beautiful woman. So it gave me, really a contrast in parenting styles, but also in parent. And I found love in both of them. And sometimes my other brothers and sisters scratched head, like, where'd you come from? Where'd you see all this? Because that's not what we saw. But when there's six of you, that you're going to see six different things. My dad was kind of man. When he laid on his dying bed, literally in the hospital, I went up and I don't know if he ever told me he loved me. And I held his hand and he literally had just hours to live, maybe an hour. And being the Irishman that he is, I squeezed his hand and I said, daddy, I love you. And I could tell he was trying to find words. And I thought, here it is here comes the big thing. He's going to say, jack, I love you, too. And you know what he said? He said, I know. I thought, well, that's. I thought, well, I mean, that's a good answer, dad, but it could have been something else. So, you know, it was a great child, and I loved it. I guess when I think of my own children, Patty and I both decided, but for me, definitely, I always told my kids and still tell them, if you have a choice between time and money, choose time, meaning with your kids, because time is more important. You know, I was a teacher for most of my career, so I got out of work at three or four. We never missed concerts. We never miss Ball games. I coached everything. We chaperoned everything. It was very important for me to be present physically and verbally and just support wise and in my kids lives. And. And I've done that. And as adults, they have said that back to us that, you know, we're just so glad you, you guys raised us the way you did. Our daughter showed us the other day she feels like she's first generation normal in that she had normal parents. A lot of her peers and her coworkers are like, well, this craziness happened in our home. So that's kind of a long winded answer, but you hit on some points and not to. Not to concentrate on it, but the alcoholism part. I lost two brothers. My one brother was sober for 20 years, but it took him at the end. And my other younger brother just died because he wouldn't put the bottle down. So. So I know what that is in family lives, and I. I know the pain that can bring, and I've tried to avoid that myself, too. I do enjoy having a drink, but I do not enjoy what it can lead to.

[19:21] SHELLEY FRAISER: My mother in law passed away of liver failure from alcohol. So, yeah, it's tough.

[19:27] JACK HOWE: It's.

[19:27] SHELLEY FRAISER: I'm thankful my dad quit.

[19:29] JACK HOWE: Yes. I'm thankful for him, too. My brother, oldest brother, who quit. I had 20 wonderful years with him when he wasn't drinking, when he was sober. It was just wonderful before he passed. So, yeah, we can share heavy things as well as light things.

[19:44] SHELLEY FRAISER: Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Something I'm curious about, and, Shelley, I'll let you feel this first is what makes you optimistic about the future of.

[19:58] JACK HOWE: America and your own future and your children's future.

[20:01] SHELLEY FRAISER: And what brings you worry? What makes me optimistic is things like this. You know, people with two different beliefs willing to come together, and we need more of this kind of on this opposite side of the coin. I guess what worries me is that I'm in the parking lot at my job because as a conservative, I have to worry about, you know, getting terminated because of my political beliefs. So, you know, I think we need to find a way to allow people to have these kind of discussions. I understand not everybody amicably, and you want to, obviously prevent workplace strife and things like that, but I just don't see how we're going to solve the problems and the divisiveness without coming together like this.

[21:01] JACK HOWE: Do you mind sharing more about that feeling? Or maybe what specifically has led you.

[21:07] SHELLEY FRAISER: To believe that your political identity is not tolerated in your workplace or a workplace? I work for a nonprofit. Our corporate office. We have an office of market. We work kind of in the middle regulatory industry. And I'm actually in the minority. I kind of refer to myself as a conscientious objector. I was against the vaccine mandates, and my company actually did have a vaccine mandate, and I was forced to make a decision there. So there was an email that went out after the January 6 incident kind of condemning that, which I agree that was wrong. But there was nothing said during the blow ups, you know, the summer when, when police stations were burning, there was just crickets on that, you know, those situations. So, and also, I think our organization has kind of hired people associated with the Democrat party. When I look on LinkedIn, like public relations and things like that. So, and our CEO is also from New York, and he just carries himself differently. He's a little more formal. So I just, I would rather err on the side of caution. There hasn't been a specific incident where I was like, you know, disciplined or given a warning or anything. And you know what? My coworker in the office next to me came in when Trump was still president, just all upset. And she said, oh, I'm so sick of Trump. You know, I'm just so tired. And I said, actually, I like him. And we just kind of set that aside and moved on. And, and I still consider her a good coworker and a friend. You know, we just put that aside. But some people get more emotional about it and judge you as a person. So I just, like I said, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

[23:30] JACK HOWE: Would you say that caution has been.

[23:32] SHELLEY FRAISER: Heightened in the last few years, or is this something that runs decades long? It's hard for me to say. I really didn't follow politics closely until I started going for my master of public administration right before COVID And I think politics and public administration are closely intertwined. So I started doing more research. And then of course, we had things escalate with COVID and with the George Floyd and I also got on Twitter around that time I created a Twitter. So I was seeing the most extreme cases on Twitter. So I would say for me personally, about the last three years is what's kind of felt more divided, I guess. But it could have. It's possible that I just didn't see it before, too. And what about you, Jack? I mean, either feel free to respond to what Shelley. Sorry. Yeah, Shelley. What Shelley had said and also your responses to what brings you optimism and.

[24:44] JACK HOWE: What brings you word. Okay, well, first, what Shelley said about the workplace and her feeling uncomfortable or maybe a little concerned for. Not a little. Definitely concerned for her livelihood. I'm sorry to hear that. I can feel for you for that and hope that. Only hope that your working environment in the culture and those that you have to answer to and supervise, you can find the graciousness in their minds to open up and not let anything happen to your job, to what you do because of views that may be held or maybe they don't even know. As I said, I've been retired and moved to a new state, a new city for the past twelve years. So the whole idea of going into a workplace and interacting, I left as a superintendent, so it would have been, oh, two or 300 employees and thousands of students and a bunch of families. That's what we're taking out of my life. And I say that because the potential that you face when you go into a workplace, of being put in a place where you're with people that you may not choose to be with, and then you might run into some discord that isn't any longer in my life. I'm happily retired, but I don't have to go into a workplace every day. And my social crowd, being in a new city has really shrunk because it's hard to make friends at any point in your life, but when you're older and move to a new city, it's harder. But anyway, I have great hope for the future because, Shelley, agree with you. Because of things like this. I really do feel there's a greater percentage of people who have given the opportunity and the time would much rather do what you and I are doing with Jonathan. I think people would really would embrace that and would do that, that they just don't find the opportunity to take the time. Because you get busy in life, you get busy with jobs and careers and kids and disappointments and loss and all the happy things, too. That kind of massaging or taking care of the bigger, the good of the greater community is a little bit harder to do. And in this climate, as you're suggesting, with work, and I empathize, I see that and recognize that people, I think, are hesitant to do that because it. It can be scary to step out on that limb at work or anywhere, and say something that you feel, that you feel that you believe in, be it religious or political or societal or cultural, you're taking a chance, you know, and in my time on this earth, I feel like there's, you take, it feels like you're taking more of a chance collectively we now, than even ten years ago, 20 years ago. It just seems that people are so much quicker to attack and pounce, you know, usually not eyeball to eyeball, but through the Internet, you know, the virtual world, and that can be even, certainly even more devastating. You know, having grandchildren, I imagine what the world would be for them. They're all oldest is six, so they have a long way to go. I read in your bio that your son is joining the army soon. I'm sure you must have concerns about what world he will face as a member of our serving our country. And by the way, I mean this wholeheartedly. It's not just not parroting a slogan here, but I do thank him for his service. We live next door to a, to a marine who just came back from being stationed in the Middle east for six months. His wife's pregnant. He has just rejoined her. So I appreciate the sacrifice of those in service, as well as their families, like yourself, but I have hope. Oh, you're welcome. It's well earned and well deserved. I have hope for the future. I really do. Maybe that's why in a household that was crazy, with six kids and my parents, I was always the one smiling and happy. I don't know how else to deal with life. I'm not going to walk around with a cloud over my head, and I'm not going to be Pollyanna either. But I think there's a balance, and I feel like you can achieve that. You know, as far as the workplace goes, that's a little bit more difficult. But life in general, I really think you can achieve that balance. And I'll just say one last thing. My brother in law, who I love, dearly, married my second, my second sister, my second oldest, he is a strong supporter of Trump. And we've had conversations, never arguments, never foul or heated words, but he pretty much knows how I'm going to react to any news story or any cartoon or any, anything. And I the same with him. And we just don't always bring it up or when it does come up, it's not going to be heavy because, you know, Jonathan said, you're not going to change anybody's point of view in 45 minutes. Probably not going to change in four or five years either. So why bother to go down that path? I just love him as a brother in law. He loves my sister and my nieces and nephews and their grandchildren, and I can live with that. And slowly, over time, have the small, meaningful conversations that stay civil and then end with us not agreeing. But at least we've had a conversation. And then we move on. And I guess that's what I hope for our country, even I don't see a lot of it. And again, not to go on too long, but here in Richmond, the summer of discontent with George Floyd and the monuments being taken down, we live very close to the monuments in Richmond. Lee, Robert E. Lee being one of them. And I went over there. I like to take photography in my retirement. I went over there and took, I don't know, probably four or 500 pictures of just what was going on there. And during the day, the mood was people were talking to each other. People, all different races and colors were talking to each other. But then at night, the protests began and there were young people with shields and then the police doing their job, too. I'm not saying whichever was wrong. My wife and I were there one night. It was just about dusk, and the sides were starting to square off. And we said, you know, we better get out of here. This is not the place for us, that part. It's how our country lives. During the day, there seems to literally go over at this Robert E. Lee stout monument. It was peaceful. People were mingling, mingling. But when night came out, maybe the masks went on figuratively and people acted in ways they wouldn't in the light of day. I kind of feel that's where our country is, but do feel there is a way forward. That was a long answer, sorry.

[30:56] SHELLEY FRAISER: Answer. I'd like to add and just say, you know, ultimately my faith is in God, not people. And that's what kind of keeps me going from one day to the next. This is my temporary home. We may lose America, but this is my temporary home. And my husband and I pray every night for healing for our neighbors.

[31:19] JACK HOWE: Yeah.

[31:21] SHELLEY FRAISER: So that's kind of deal with all of this.

[31:25] JACK HOWE: Yeah, I would agree with that, Shelley I'm glad you brought that up because I told you I struggled with my Catholicism because of so many things going on politically and legally and all of that. And I would Covid I stepped away for a time, but I've found my way back to the church, and God is very, very important. Very important. And I will keep my faith in God, but also my foot on the ground and faith in people and family as well. Both of you have touched on this.

[31:55] SHELLEY FRAISER: A bit, and I want to pry a little bit. You've had what sounds like civil disagreement with people in your life.

[32:06] JACK HOWE: Has there been a time or times.

[32:09] SHELLEY FRAISER: When a relationship has been strained because of political difference, especially in the last five years? I'll let either of you take.

[32:22] JACK HOWE: Yeah, you know, I would say, other than I mentioned with my brother in law, it was strange. There was no split. It wasn't bad. And again, as I mentioned earlier, like, shelley's still in the workplace, probably having more encounters with people not of our own choosing. Me being retired, I don't encounter people as often that I don't agree with. And I don't usually talk politics that much at any social gathering. You know, going to the y to play pickleball, you know, politics doesn't usually come up. And if it did, you know, I don't know what I would do with that. So I don't avoid the conversation. But it just, because of where I am in life, it just isn't. It just isn't in my environment as much as maybe it could be.

[33:10] SHELLEY FRAISER: I don't think we've had any, any strife. My brother in law is actually a Democrat, and he and my sister just had their one year anniversary, Christmas Eve. When she told me he was a Democrat, I was like, oh, okay. You know, we're probably going to disagree on a lot of things, but that's okay. You know, ultimately, I just care how he treats my sister, you know?

[33:34] JACK HOWE: Right, exactly.

[33:37] SHELLEY FRAISER: In Arkansas, who actually is a retired educator and he's a Democrat, and he kind of just keeps to himself and doesn't talk to anybody. But I don't know that that's political. I think he's just by nature kind of likes to keep to himself. But I'll be honest, like, I don't connect with family members on Facebook very much because we have good relationships, and I'm afraid that if we disagree, things could. I just have heard horror stories about Facebook spats and people, you know, writing each other off, not want that to happen. So as far as my family, if I want like my cousins, I'll pick up the phone and call them rather than going through social media.

[34:25] JACK HOWE: Right. What I think, Shelley, that I, if anything, I would de escalate if I were in a situation, maybe at the gym, working out or had a picnic in the community or something like that. If I were to hear a comment that I didn't have agree with, I would probably do avoidance. I would change the subject, deflect the comment, maybe change where I'm standing. I wouldn't engage. And that probably, that is definitely different in my life. And that's probably in the last decade or so, maybe the last five years, there were times when I would engage in what I would think would be a good, healthy conversation about politics. A good friend of mine from high school that I go fishing with, he's, yeah, Jack, when we were in high school, nobody would ever want to talk to you about politics, is you'd get so into it, and we talk and you talk. It's not that way anymore. Some of it is you get older and wiser. But also, it's just I'm not looking to fight with people over any issue, certainly not politics, where you're really not going to move anybody's mind too much one way or another. So I guess, Jonathan, to react to your question, if I thought, if I thought a situation we're coming up or a conversation we're going to lead down the road of which wouldn't be good, I would just diffuse, deflect, de escalate, or not even engage.

[35:49] SHELLEY FRAISER: I'm willing to discuss. But you can kind of tell when, when things get heated, and I'm like you, I would just change the subject and find kind of a more, my husband's a little different. He, he just grabs the bull by the horns and keeps going. But I think sometimes it's just because he doesn't read people as well. And so I'll kind of nudge him and be like, hey, let's change the subject here.

[36:13] JACK HOWE: Right.

[36:17] SHELLEY FRAISER: Something I wanted to touch on, Jack, or you touched on that I wanted.

[36:22] JACK HOWE: To dig a little deeper in, was.

[36:24] SHELLEY FRAISER: About moving to a new city and the difficulty of finding, especially in a post Covid era, new friendships. What have both of your observations been.

[36:35] JACK HOWE: About the evolution of adult friendship, especially looking at the previous generation and the.

[36:40] SHELLEY FRAISER: Way they maintained friendship? What have you experienced, what have you observed about the role that friendship has taken in the american adult life, if.

[36:54] JACK HOWE: That question makes sense? Well, you know, I would say for me, sorry, Shelley, I don't want to jump in on you. You know, I mentioned when we, my wife and I went to the same schools together, so we've known each other our whole lives. She was my senior ball date. So we've just, and that's the kind of town we lived in. And we had family structures and friend and structures, so people were just all around our whole lives. And then we brought our kids back there and raised them there. So they were raised in that same environment. So friends and relatives, it just wasn't an issue because they were there. They grew like trees around us. So when we moved as retired adults to a new city, that was a whole void in our lives. And we moved into Richmond, which is a city, and it's a much younger city. People are going to work every day and we're nothing. It's harder for us to make friends. And we live in a small hoa, community, very small, only about 80 units. And a couple that we did meet, they moved to Denver, Colorado, to be closer to their family. And the people, I said, who live next door to their thirties, they're just starting a family. We go to the y and we meet people there. But that whole social structure that we had when we were married, or still married, rather, raising kids back in New York, it's all missing here. And the two of us will sit on the porch at night sometimes we'll lament that because you want friends, and it's much, much harder to do for my adult children. You know, they both moved out of their hometown and they're living, one's in Richmond and one's in northern Virginia. They seem really busy with their careers and they're raising their own kids. They're both not in their hometown, so they don't have ready made friends already around them. They have to go out and make them. And I see them struggling a little bit, too, trying to make friends. You know, a lot is done socially on the, on the Internet, virtually. But they want to go meet people and they want to go hang out with people and, and they, they struggle with it. You know, they, they all work, so they work friends, and some of that translates into friends in your personal life, but not always. And I know that they think, well, you know, what are we going to do on the weekends or who can we hang out with? And so I think they struggle. I think the struggle to find yourself as a social being in a social setting at any age, I think the struggle is real, and I don't think it's that different for different ages or even different generations. I think everybody struggles and everybody wants to be a part of the greater society. I know I talk.

[39:34] SHELLEY FRAISER: That was a great answer.

[39:35] JACK HOWE: Yeah, I know I talk a lot.

[39:36] SHELLEY FRAISER: But I enjoy listening. You have a lot of great stories, and especially being one of multiple children, I enjoy listening. Yes, I agree about social media. It just seems like people don't interact personally with each other as much anymore, and I feel like I miss out on a lot, kind of limiting my facebook usage, because that's the primary means of people's interaction. We kind of are intentional. So we moved a couple of years ago, Fort Worth, to a more rural area, you know, a few miles outside. We started over with our church, and that's really been a good way for us to meet people and make friends. We got plugged into life group, and I highly recommend that, you know, if you have the opportunity. I don't know that's as big of a thing with catholic churches as Baptists are very big on life groups, and so that's.

[40:44] JACK HOWE: What are life groups?

[40:47] SHELLEY FRAISER: They're small units of members of a church, or even you don't have to be a member, that just get together outside of church. And sometimes we discussed, you know, we do Bible studies together, but we may pick a topic. We were in a life group at our last church that was parents of teenagers, and so we read books on, you know, christian based books on raising teenagers and just support each other through life's challenges. Pray for each other, you know, bring a meal if someone loses a loved one, things like that. So that's really helped us a lot. And then, of course, having teenagers, they're constantly meeting friends, and so we end up becoming friends with our kids parents. That helps us. But, yeah, actually, I'm excited. A lady from our church and I are going to a Toby Mac concert together this weekend. I don't know if you're familiar with Toby Mac. Kind of a christian r and b type artiste, and I'm really excited about that. I'm kind of introverted and awkward, and so I have a hard time making friends. I tend to say the wrong things, and I just also. I'm kind of a country girl, so, you know, I'm not into things most women are into. I like to get my hands dirty in my garden and things like that. So I'm excited about potentially making new friends this weekend and going to the tube.

[42:18] JACK HOWE: Hey, Shelley, I think it's great that you are into getting your hands dirty and doing the things that make that make you you, because I don't think we can ever be happy as a person unless we're happy with ourselves, you know? And that's. Yes, yes. And, you know, the Catholic. The Catholics can be a real challenge. I think we belong to a parish here, and it was a big parish, and we got a new priest, and I really didn't like the way he was treating some of the kids who served the mass. And he wasn't abusing. I don't mean that, but he just, to me, just felt too standoffish, too rude. So we went to a different church, another catholic church, and it's a much smaller church. And I don't know about the baptist church, but the catholics are having a hard time keeping the young people there. So most times when we go to mass, I'm 66, and I'm on the younger end of the people going to mass, but the church has an outreach to some homeless. We have a large homeless population in Richmond, and they have showers, and they give food and clothing, and they have a little closet for people to get things they need from. I'm thinking that might be a way that I can do something good for my community and also meet people through the church by serving the community and our daughter. You mentioned that you work for a nonprofit. Our daughter works for a big central Virginia food bank. Very big. And they do meals on wheels, and my wife cooks in that kitchen. This was all pre Covid, and we were starting to meet people that way by volunteering. I used to be a meals on wheels driver, and she would go prepare all the meals, and we did backpacks for kids, too. But then Covid changed the world, you know, it really did. And we stopped doing those, I think, you know, to your point of getting back or looking at church for maybe an entry into being social with people. And also community organizations do good things. Could be a way to do it, too. I probably just have to get off my butt and get back into those things.

[44:13] SHELLEY FRAISER: It's hard, and it's very sad to me how so many people just quit, completely quit attending church during COVID and I know people online, but I feel like you miss out on some of the fellowship and the opportunities there. But I think that's great that what your family's doing with the mills on wheels, that's. Yes, that's wonderful. Helping is always great. Way to connect and feel good and, you know, realize what we have to be thankful for ourselves.

[44:44] JACK HOWE: Yes, that's right. My last question.

[44:49] SHELLEY FRAISER: I know we could really talk all day.

[44:50] JACK HOWE: I feel like we just scratched this. I know it should be longer.

[44:55] SHELLEY FRAISER: I know I'm curious what each of.

[44:58] JACK HOWE: You would, or rather, what each of.

[45:01] SHELLEY FRAISER: You are most likely to remember about the other moving forward. What stuck with you in this conversation?

[45:09] JACK HOWE: Well, for me, to think of the randomness of this process, where we both randomly respond to this great idea and then get matched up with a little bio, and then, you know, this. But yet we share so much in common. I think what will stick with me, some of your personal life experiences within your family that you talked about, some of the things that are important to you in your church and in how you live your life are things that I share. I think the things that we talked about that we have in common and explored, what those are, I'll remember, but also the things that maybe, you know, we don't have in common, which is fine, too. We don't. It'd be boring if we all were exactly alike. So I think I certainly will remember the things that. That, as you spoke from your heart about the things that are important to you. It touched my heart because they're important to me, too.

[46:08] SHELLEY FRAISER: I appreciate that, Jack, and I really enjoyed hearing about your family. I was only one of two kids. You were one of six. And hearing about your dad, and, you know, the way that he showed love differently, I really think that's cool that, you know, some people hurt or, you know, that you. Your attitude, if that's, you know, that's the way he is and you knew that he loved you.

[46:36] JACK HOWE: Yes.

[46:37] SHELLEY FRAISER: And just, you know, your. Your faith is we're more. I think we're more alike, probably, than we are. We may be different politically, but as far as faith and family being important to us, and both of us loving our country, we're probably really more alike than we are different.

[46:55] JACK HOWE: I would agree 100%. Shelley. I think you're exactly right.