Jaclyn Schwartz and Catherine Hoyt

[00:02] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: My name is Jaclyn Schwartz. I'm 36 years old. Today is September 14, 2023. We are in St. Louis, Missouri, and I am going to interview my friend and coworker, Catherine Hoyt.

[00:17] CATHERINE HOYT: And my name is Catherine Hoyt. I'm 38 years old. It is September 14, 2023. We are in St. Louis, Missouri, and I'm going to be talking with Jaclyn my friend and coworker.

[00:30] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: So I know we talked a little bit about what we wanted to talk about today, and so we talked a little bit about, like, how we both became. Decided to become scientists. So I was wondering when you realized that you wanted to be a scientist.

[00:49] CATHERINE HOYT: I don't know that. I mean, I think I've realized that I want to be a scientist. I think I am one. It took me a long time to identify with that title for myself. I think I was first an occupational therapist, and I still love being an occupational therapist. And it was in that role, I think, after a few years just being frustrated with seeing how some families were getting access to services more than others, and, like, that therapy could be delivered more effectively or efficiently, and. And nobody would listen to my ideas. And so in my mind, the way to do that was then, like, oh, I have to create the evidence so that what I want to do, I can actually prove that it works, and maybe we can improve how our healthcare systems are delivered and how people access healthcare overall. So that's what brought me to do a PhD in the first place. But I think it wasn't actually until I finished it and started getting grant funding. And it was, like, that extrinsic thing that I identified as a scientist. So I think my want is, like, not based in science. How about you? When did I think you wanted to be a scientist for a long time?

[02:02] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No, I. Well, I grew up in kind of, like, a suburb of a large city, and, like, just thought everyone knew what they were doing. And then, like, I got to college, and I was like, okay, there's some, like, questions. And then I, like, you know, also, I'm trained as occupational therapist. So I went to occupational therapy school, and then I got out into clinical practice, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, no one actually knows what they're doing. And people are just, you know, kind of doing the best they can to help people feel better. And there are things that, like, we can do to help people feel better, but they're just, like, a lot of times not actually being used in, like, hospitals and clinics. And so then I just had a hard time, like, staying in practice and like, and maybe it's my problem with like black and white thinking like doing things that we didn't know were gonna help people like be healthy and effective. And so then that's when I, when I, so for ot training, you know, we like do our in class training and then we go out and like do clinicals. And so when it was on the clinical rotation and the OT's were like maybe not doing the best evidence based practices that I was like, okay, I think I want to go into and be a scientist and like figure this out.

[03:21] CATHERINE HOYT: I think that's why I like dissemination and implementation science so much, because I see how awesome occupational therapy can be. It can be so awesome and we have not evidence for everything, but evidence for some things. And it really bums me out when, when we aren't able to disseminate that effectively to all the people who could benefit.

[03:42] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, no, I agree. I like came to dissemination and implementation science late, which is like the science of getting like a lot of times the science is like what do patients need to do so they feel better? But dissemination and implementation science is like how do we get the clinicians to change practice so that they can help patients feel better? And that is like surprisingly hard. Like you think that people would just want to do the best thing, but then you get into practice and realize like there's all these barriers with like insurance and training and time and how much time you're allowed to spend with different people that like really get in your way. And so it's hard to understand the importance of getting the clinicians to actually implement stuff. And now that I used to just feel guilty because like when I was a clinician I was like, oh, I need to do all these things and these things are all evidence based, but it's really hard because I don't have enough time and I don't have the certificate of training. And so dissemination and implementation science also makes me feel better to realize like it's not my fault. And there are like all of these barriers in my way from like being able to give people the best therapy I could give them.

[04:50] CATHERINE HOYT: It's definitely not your fault. I think it's our healthcare system's fault.

[04:55] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I mean definitely there's room for change in the healthcare system, but we're operating in a model that's like so old and maybe isn't fit for how we live and work right now.

[05:08] CATHERINE HOYT: That's a good point. So just thinking about that and that you're a scientist and also a therapist, but like we started this by both identifying as a scientist. Now, what do you like about being a scientist?

[05:23] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: So being a scientist is nice because so you get a lot of training, right? And the training is all about, like, asking big questions. And how do you ask big questions, and how do you do it in a manner that's, like, rigorous and is gonna give you the answer that you need and want. And how do you ask, like, not only one question, but, like, how do you ask a series of questions going to, like, advance the field? And so the best part about being a scientist, I think, is, like, being able to think about the questions that you want to ask and then working to answer them. And then the other thing I like about being a scientist is, especially in healthcare, it's very rare that you have one person working in a lab, like, working towards their Nobel Prize, right? So now the model is like team science. So I get to work with, like, really cool, smart people and, like, awesome students. And so the people are definitely also a plus.

[06:16] CATHERINE HOYT: Huge plus. Yeah.

[06:18] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: What do you like about being a scientist?

[06:22] CATHERINE HOYT: Mine is going to sound less academic, but I think the things I like most about being a scientist are that I have the opportunity to ask any question I want and try to answer it. And that, to me, is really rewarding and fun and exciting. And even though some, in any job, I think there's moments that are boring or tedious or less fun. But being a scientist is generally pretty fun because you get to problem solve and think about, like, how would I want to do this? And let's try it out and see if it can actually work. The other thing I really like is that I'm in charge of my own schedule, and I've known since I was a little kid. Like, this is like, a thing that I need for myself.

[07:06] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: And I like that it is nice to be in charge of your own schedule and have, like, a little bit of schedule flexibility. But I think you bring a good point of, like, being able to ask the question that you want to ask. And I think that's a problem. Historically, when women, like, weren't able to be professors or scientists and, like, weren't welcomed, then we had a bunch of, like, a very homogeneous group of people asking questions. And maybe the questions of, like, that were important to women and were important to other historically marginalized groups werent being asked. Do you think that you ask questions that, like, wouldnt have been asked by previous decades of scientists?

[07:48] CATHERINE HOYT: Yes, I do. Did you know the first woman PhD was from Italy in like, the 16 hundreds?

[07:55] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No.

[07:56] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah. Isnt that cool? I just learned that I dont remember the exact year and I wish I remembered the town, but I thought that was amazing because, like, there really haven't been women represented in the sciences for a really long time. And I think what upsets me, like, to that question of, like, what am I asking different questions because of gendered roles and things that, that have been kind of placed on us, women are often put in care taking roles, which is probably why we're both occupational therapists. But like, we also tend to ask more of the questions related to how people are feeling, managing, coping, getting through their everyday lives. And those questions haven't been asked much before. And so I think we're just now starting to be interested in asking those questions and like, wondering, like, why didn't this intervention work that we thought was going to work? And maybe it didn't work because nobody wanted to do it and nobody asked that before. And I think people that identify as caregivers or in those types of fields that provide more caregiving types of roles, like, we ask those kinds of questions. We see what happens when you do something that, or offer, like a medicine or an intervention or anything like that, but the person doesn't want it for some reason, and you don't ask why they don't want it, then you've just spent a whole lot of time doing something that isn't ever going to be effective.

[09:29] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[09:32] CATHERINE HOYT: I lost my questions.

[09:33] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No, that's okay.

[09:35] CATHERINE HOYT: Let me pull them up and then I'll ask you again.

[09:37] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No, that's okay.

[09:41] CATHERINE HOYT: Do you think that it's affected your questions?

[09:44] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Well, so the thing that I study is how to help people better take their medications, which is also called medication adherence. And that's been kind of like an area of interest for about the past 30 to 50 years because a lot of scientists before us spent a lot of time and money, like, figuring out how to get these medications to work so people feel better. And then they did that, and then they were like, oh, wait, some of these medications people have to take for the rest of their lives, but then they don't actually do that. And then they have stroke and heart attack and all of these things that presumably could have been prevented if they were taking their medications. And so I think I take a different pers, I think my background gives me a different approach. And so, like, a lot of the things that people try are like, oh, let's like, text people and remind them. Or instead of having them take five pills, let's have them take one pill. And so, you know, coming from more, like, having those care responsibilities makes me between, like, my kids and my parents and even myself to some extent. I've learned more firsthand all the barriers there are to getting your medication from the pharmacy and getting them set up at home and making sure your kids don't get into your pills and all of these firsthand experiences that influence how I ask the question. And it's just being asked in a little bit different way than some of the researchers in the field have traditionally looked at medication adherence.

[11:14] CATHERINE HOYT: I bet a lot of people haven't even weighed how important the side effects are of medications because I would bet a lot of people just don't take them. Not just because they don't remember, but they don't want to for whatever reason.

[11:26] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And that's like, a shift that people are seeing with changes in generation, that people would just take whatever their doctor said and now understanding that what your health is your responsibility and your doctor's there to help you, and it's a process that you navigate together.

[11:47] CATHERINE HOYT: Do you think there's anything that's especially difficult about being a scientist or a woman in science?

[11:54] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: I mean, there's. In science in general, there's a lot of rejection. And so the nice part is, like, you ask your big questions and you get to do it your way, and sometimes you make mistakes, and what happens is you just go ahead and make the mistake, and then you write it up, and then you submit your science to a journal, and then they say, you idiot, you made this, like, very glaring and obvious mistake. We will not be accepting the science to our prestigious journal. And so there's, like, a lot of rejection and failure. And so you do the same thing for grants. You're like, I have this brilliant idea, and I need $5 million to do it. So, like, foundation or the federal government or whoever wants to fund my science, like, someone please do it. And then it gets reviewed by these peer reviewers, and they're like, actually, this idea is, like, not that exciting, and you're not doing it great. And, no, we're not going to give you this money. And so then it's very tempting to feel like a horrible, stupid person, even though you're not. That's just, like, the process of science, so.

[12:55] CATHERINE HOYT: Or, like, that paper that we worked on together that, like, I feel like is brilliant. But I think to me, like, a hard thing is that there are gatekeepers in science. So, like, we wrote that amazing paper that I think is really meaningful, and eventually it'll get published. But if the editors of the journals don't find it meaningful, they're just going to reject it or say it's stupid or they don't like the idea or whatever their opinions are. That's true. And I think there's gatekeepers, not just at the journal phase when you're submitting the papers, but when you're submitting your grants and your grant ideas. If the person reviewing it isn't on board with your idea, they're just going to say like, maybe, but nah. And, and then you're kind of left out to dry to either shift your idea to something that is more appealing to the people that decide whether you get the money in the papers to do it or. Yeah, basically I think you, it's, that's so hard that you have to shift your ideas sometimes so that they appeal to the people that make the decisions.

[14:01] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: That's true. And the people that make the decisions are, you know, often more senior. And so they're people who started before like 10, 20, 30 years before us who where there are like far fewer women and a lot of them have, you know, spouses who stay at home and support them and the realities of our life are just so much different.

[14:23] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah, I think that actually angers me sometimes, or maybe sometimes is underestimating it, but it's so frustrating that these expectations can be placed on faculty, particularly I think faculty that identify as women or female identifying that also have these caregiving roles with families or with small children, with parents, with a home. Like anything, anything, like have these responsibilities, so many responsibilities and then you're expected to be always present, always there, able to be there at six in the morning and at six at night and, you know, get a grant written really quickly and get all the papers while doing all of those other things too. And even people that. What am I trying to say? Like people that abuse the system if as long as they get those grants and papers they're still rewarded. Yeah, and that angers me.

[15:30] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: The system was definitely set up, it feels like in the fifties and sixties on a, on a model of you have one person who's a professional scientist and then they have a spouse that stays home and does all the grocery shopping and the cooking and the cleaning and like taking care of the kids and the older adults. And now, you know, the expectation is like economically is that you have two people earning money in the household to be able to support you and your family. But so even though economically things have changed, the realities and expectations of our job haven't and the supports also aren't there. So, like, I know when we tried to get our kids in daycare, there's, like, a daycare shortage. And so that was something I just spent a ton of time on, like, calling all the different daycares to find two spots to get two young kids in. And then even just, like, the number of events where voluntold to go to in evening times, then I have to pick my kids up at 530. And so being two places at once is always difficult.

[16:36] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah. And, like, even I think about, like, this week, I went to a conference that was a few days. It was in Chicago, and it was great. I'm so glad I went. And I got to have a wonderful networking opportunity with lots of people in my area of interest and, you know, senior scientists and things like that. But one thing that kept coming to mind is that for all of my colleagues that have small children, it's so hard to go to an out of town meeting. It's so hard to go to anything that has an evening commitment. And I don't know if I'm, like, placing that on you, Jaclyn as being hard.

[17:08] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No, fortunately, you know, I am partnered, and I have a spouse that is willing to. Well, not willing. Like, we picked each other because we knew we would support each other. And so, like, you know, I go to conferences and I have a great time, but then he's home taking care of two kids, which, you know, when I'm home taking care of two kids by myself, like, I understand it's stressful, and so if either of us travels too much, it really burns the other person out. And so, like, we have to make sure that we don't travel too much, because then the other person will just be, you know, burned out on doing everything.

[17:44] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah, I think it's so hard as a scientist, though, like, and tell me what you think about this. But, like, so much of our career is based on these gatekeepers. Going back to what I said before, like, people that make the decisions on our papers and our grants and networking can have such a big impact on that, on connecting to the right people that can help influence those decisions or give you, like, really supportive feedback to help ensure that things get accepted and that networking happens at meetings.

[18:16] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[18:16] CATHERINE HOYT: Do you feel pressure from that?

[18:18] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No, I definitely feel pressure to go. Well, I feel pressure to go to meetings because it's nice to meet people and it's nice to have that facetime with people. But then also, you know, I feel like right now we're lucky because we're actually in a pretty big department, but where I was previously, like, I was the only person of my, like, age doing so, doing the science that I was interested in. And so then going to conferences was like the only time I had to, like, have an exchange of ideas and, like, see my friends and stuff. And so it's, like, important to go because it's, like, not inspiring, but, like, revitalizing. And so it's important to have, like, be refreshed in your, your professional career. And also, like, the science changes. Like, the science that's happening now, it's like completely different than the science that was happening ten years ago. And it's like different methods that you need to use and you have to stay up to date and you have to cite the most recent references. Otherwise, you know, your science isn't going to get rejected. But it's hard because there are these gatekeepers and, like, we definitely, like, as we saw with COVID and whatnot, we don't want bad science, like, getting out. And there definitely should be gatekeepers who do some level of, like, quality control. But the problem is, like, when, I don't know, it's a fine line and it's hard to identify where it should be, but there's definitely, like, gatekeeping that happens that, like, prevents, like, our paper was on diversity, equity and inclusion, and that definitely played a role in it getting published, for sure. Yeah, but I think it's under review. For real?

[19:56] CATHERINE HOYT: Crossing my fingers. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, maybe on that note, thinking about that paper, do you think being a person in science that identifies as a woman and presents as a woman has hindered you at all?

[20:11] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: It's so. Well, it's definitely hindered me. So I have taken two parental leaves for the birth of each of my children. And so that's just time. So being a scientist and being in academia is like a very up or outd field, you know, where you either get promoted or you leave and you have to get promoted within, like, a certain amount of time. And so in theory there, you know, you get leaves to, like, take care of your kids and then you come back and you can work. And so in theory there are these supports, but then in reality, what actually happens is men also get parental leave, but they take the parental leave and work on their science and, like, advance their portfolios, and then women take parental leave and, like, take care of the children, the babies, and don't advance their portfolio. And then also because they tend to have, like, a higher load of work, specifically in the very early years, you know, they continue to lag over time. And so then, like, you have this parental leave policy that is good in theory, but then actually makes it worse for women.

[21:18] CATHERINE HOYT: Awesome.

[21:19] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: And I don't even know how to, you know, what to do about that because I think that, you know, people who identify as male should be able to be home with their kids, and that's what's best for women and that's what's best for families. But then you just. It's like, about changing the culture.

[21:37] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah, I think it is about changing the culture, because both parents, if it's a family that has two caregivers in the household or more like, need to be on board with sharing those responsibilities, because I think that's where it has historically come down is that, like, whoever the woman is in the relationship takes a much larger proportion of the childcare and the house tasks. I don't know what to call those.

[22:07] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[22:10] CATHERINE HOYT: Like, I feel like I have all of those.

[22:12] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I feel like I have more of those. And the ones I don't have or, like, specific conversations between me and my partner about, like, how do we even this out? And, like, what can he do? But then also part of it was me because I've, like, grown up in this culture where, you know, women do the cooking and women do the cleaning, and that's the expectation. So part of it has been changing, like, my understanding of what my role is and then also being accepting of different levels of cleanliness and deliciousness in terms of cooking. But, you know, marriage is all about compromise. I love my spouse, for the record.

[23:02] CATHERINE HOYT: I guess I agree with that, too. My partner and I came from different expectations of, like, where clothing belongs.

[23:11] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Is the floor not a valid option?

[23:15] CATHERINE HOYT: I mean, it is a valid option. It is an option that we both take. But I think there's a disparity in what our perceptions of, like, let's pick up means.

[23:27] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, but there's definitely, like. So in terms of, like, being a woman in science, there's definitely, like a. I have chosen that I'm going to have, like, a fulfilling career and a fulfilling family life. And in some instances, that means having it all. But then there's no such thing as having it all. And so that just means that my house is, like, a little less tidy and not vacuumed quite as often. And maybe I need a little bit more notice when guests come over.

[24:04] CATHERINE HOYT: I 1000% endorse that. I think this notion of you can have it all was actually a bit destructive because not everybody can have it all, and not everybody can have it all, all the time. And you do have to make some choices. And so, like, I've chosen career, and I want my relationship to be satisfying to me. And so what that means is, like, setting some boundaries on when I'll do work or if I'm doing work outside of work hours, that it's my choice, that it's a thing that I really want to be doing or feel the need to do. But I think you're right. And we've had this conversation about parenting, too. Like, it's impossible to have it all unless you have a bazillion dollars and lots of social support. But neither of us are from St. Louis originally, so all of our family isn't here necessarily to provide all the support all the time for everything. Like, I guess that bums me out. I see the men in our field or in science that just don't think about those things ever. They don't think about making dentist appointments. And I know that this is a huge generalization, and maybe I should go back on this because it sounds really judgmental, but a lot of people that our leaders in academia and in science just, like, live their life only thinking about science, and that's awesome for them, and we don't have that same luxury, I don't think.

[25:38] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I agree. I listened to this. Oh, it's not a TED talk, I think, or it's a presentation called the last lecture. It's really popular in PhD programs where as a scientist, and he found out he had cancer and was going to die, but then he decided, like, his science was so meaningful to him. Like, he kept doing it, and he talked about, like, people ask him what the secret to success was, and his answer was, call me Friday night in my office and I'll tell you the answer. And, like, you know, that's. That was, like, the message we got through our training. Like, you have to work so hard and you have to work. You have to be, like, so smart. But not only do you have to be smart, you have to work, like, these long hours, which is not. I mean, I'm so happy for those people who could be fulfilled by their science, like, 24/7 but I think most people require, like, some level of balance. And also, at the end of the day, when I'm old and frail, you know, my science is not going to be there to, like, care for me.

[26:45] CATHERINE HOYT: Unless it improves your ability to take your medications.

[26:47] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Well, yeah, I'll be really well. Even now, I'm, like, still not great at taking my medications, but maybe I'll be better one day. And I think that's the secret to science, is you do the science you need. And so, yeah, I resonate very well with a lot of the research participants that I work with.

[27:12] CATHERINE HOYT: I get that. I think that's why I became an ot in the first place. Like, I needed ot.

[27:17] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[27:19] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah. I could just leave it at that, but I could elaborate if you want.

[27:25] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Um. Oh, man. So have we talked about the. I know we've talked a lot. A lot about the barriers. Have we talked enough about, like, the rewarding parts?

[27:41] CATHERINE HOYT: I don't know. At the moment, I feel so hindered that I, like, don't feel that rewarded, which is terrible. But ultimately, I guess, like, I stick with it. I stick with being a scientist and in academia because it is so rewarding when you get to those end stages, like, sharing your work in a publication or at a conference with other scientists or with people and see the benefit that it can have that is just so, so, so rewarding. It's totally a two marshmallow kind of thing, and I think that that is worth it to me. And I also really like working with learners. So, not necessarily, like, in the classroom, but people that have similar interests to me and feel equally passionate about getting early intervention to more children or advocating for changes in policy or. My research is in doing developmental assessments with young children, and so if they're passionate about supporting families in a way that aligns with how I view the world, then I think it's super fun, and I love engaging with them, and I think those things are just make it worth it. But you have to be in it for the long haul. Cause it's not gonna be a marshmallow every day.

[29:07] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, for sure. They're definitely not marshmallows every day. There's a lot of coffee.

[29:13] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah. How about you? What do you think is rewarding?

[29:16] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: I don't know. Well, maybe I'm just kind of at a bad stage. Like, with what is on my plate right now, I'm in the end of, like, having, you know, a couple. Well, I've been working on that paper that we had to resubmit a couple of times to, like, find a. Hopefully find a home for. And then I'm also in the process of, like, writing a grant. And so those two things together perhaps make my outlook a little bit more bleak. And then also the stage of life I am with two young kids makes the sleep situation more tenuous, but I still feel compelled to bend that moral arc towards justice in an evidence based way. And so I feel like I'm just there pulling on this arc, trying to bend it, and that is my, like, who's the guy that rolls the boulder up the mountain? That's how I feel like science is. And maybe like. But the thing about science is you never make it to the top.

[30:19] CATHERINE HOYT: That's true. There's always another question to ask. Yeah, but I feel like this is like the other day, weren't we in the car, we were talking about Tikkun Olam.

[30:26] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[30:26] CATHERINE HOYT: And that like, science is about like we're maybe we're compelled to science because. Because of Tikkun Olam, which is like this jewish idea of repairing the world and everybody must do it or we'll never get anywhere.

[30:44] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: This is true. Well, yeah, I guess we're compelled to do our part and repair the world, but it would be really nice to invent some blockbuster drug and just make a lot of money.

[31:02] CATHERINE HOYT: I'll endorse you, but that's just not.

[31:05] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: The type of science I do.

[31:07] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah, but if you did it, I know that it would be awesome and it would actually be like great for everybody and it would be affordable and it would change the world.

[31:16] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, it's not gonna happen.

[31:19] CATHERINE HOYT: I don't wanna. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to. But what makes your blood boil?

[31:29] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: The gatekeeping definitely makes my blood boil. There's a lot of like soft nose and you don't realize their nose because people might verbalize a yes, but then you keep working with someone or keep trying to move something forward and there's always a barrier. And so getting those soft yeses that are actually a no, like really drives me insane. Or like. And this is kind of like what we were talking about in the car where people are. The one nice thing about being a scientist and working in universities is like a lot of people are really motivated to make the world a better place and there are a lot of different approaches to do that. And so I'm like really driven by doing things that are effective and scalable, which kind of goes back to our conversation about implementation science. And so when people are doing things, like we're trained to scientists and people are doing things that probably don't work or are probably not going to scale, that also drives me crazy.

[32:44] CATHERINE HOYT: I agree. I think that's the thing that like, makes me so sad when I see interventions that have been tested for so long and like labs that are so invested in this one thing, but they've never invested in actually getting it to people. And so then, you know, that person retires, and that intervention just, like, disappears into nowhere land, into the Internet, I guess, but not that many people know about it.

[33:09] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: And I guess that is something that really makes my blood boil, because the scientist that leads that lab probably has so many publications and so many awards and so many accolades, but then when you really look at what they've done for the world, they haven't moved the needle forward and, like, improve the lives of the people that they were working to improve. And that makes my blood boil, which.

[33:30] CATHERINE HOYT: Is, like, to the system problem, because, like, even today, I was talking with our other colleague, with Jessica, about systematic and scoping reviews and that they don't really count towards tenure.

[33:43] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Oh, I didn't know that.

[33:44] CATHERINE HOYT: Right. Because what matters is original research.

[33:47] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: So this, like, what is original research? I don't know. That's the. Well, the problem is I'm not a gatekeeper, so my opinion doesn't count.

[33:56] CATHERINE HOYT: Right. And so, like, the people that are gatekeeping whether we get to keep this job forever with tenure, make these decisions, if we've had all of these publications and all of these grant funding opportunities that have come our way and everything, and so the person with that lab that has. It's totally hypothetical, but, like, all of these publications and all of this funding is gonna get all of the rewards and accolades associated with that, even if it's not actually helping anybody.

[34:25] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[34:27] CATHERINE HOYT: Really also makes my blood boil, although I also wanna say another thing that makes my blood boil is kind of related to that, but kind of the structure that people can get away with actively harming people in their lab or, like, in their work environment and still succeed, and you can bend over backwards. I think, especially as a person that is a female identifying graduate student or postdoc, like, any role where you're kind of dependent on somebody superior to you for your career, for your advancement, and you need them, in some ways to advance your career, that really creates a difficult power dynamic. And over and over again, it's been shown in publications across the United States that that power dynamic can be really harmful. And people are just told, like, tough, deal with it. And, like, either you're gonna, like, I don't want to say man up, because that's horrible, because I actually think probably those aren't the people that are being the toughest and developing the thickest skins, but you have to develop a thick skin or you're not going to get through.

[35:46] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah. The one thing that I was so I think that's a really common experience. And one thing that I was surprised about is, like, in terms of, like, gender discrimination and harassment, one of the biggest places that that's experienced is in the armed services. And the second most popular or the second most commonplace is in, like, research and science and academic institutions. And it's really about. It's not about want or need. It's about power, and power over and showing people that, like, you don't belong here. I don't want you here. And it's like another strategy. It's another barrier and another strategy that people use to, like, prevent women from advancing. And that's why there's a leaky pipeline. You have, like, a whole bunch just like me. I was, like, a bright eyed, bushy tailed, like, I'm gonna change the world. Like, as a student. And then, you know, over time, you hit the barriers or the glass ceiling. You know, you hit it and you're like, oh, that's what they were talking about. And then you get old and jaded.

[36:53] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah. I mean, I was literally told he's a rising star. So, yeah, watch out.

[36:59] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: And I think it's the thing that makes. I guess that also continues to make my blood boil is, like, other people see it and know that it's happening. And, like, bad behavior is tolerated because the stakes are so high.

[37:15] CATHERINE HOYT: Are they, though?

[37:16] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: No.

[37:20] CATHERINE HOYT: Meh.

[37:21] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: I guess it depends on what you value. And if you value large sums of grant money, then. And I think it comes back to the beginning of our conversation, right? Like, we got into this to, like, help people and repair the world and bend the moral arc of justice. And, you know, there are gatekeepers who are there because this is. It could be a nice, cushy job where you get to answer interesting questions and work with interesting people and have a lot of control over your life.

[37:51] CATHERINE HOYT: Or maybe we should just go eat muffins on a lake.

[37:54] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[37:55] CATHERINE HOYT: I don't know why that image came to mind.

[37:57] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Well, if this doesn't work out for us, we can open a bookshop and bake tasty treats off a lake.

[38:04] CATHERINE HOYT: That sounds awesome to me.

[38:06] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

[38:07] CATHERINE HOYT: Do you want to end with a Taylor Swift quote that you think summarizes your career in science?

[38:12] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Oh, you'll have to go first.

[38:14] CATHERINE HOYT: Okay. Mine was, I gave my blood, sweat, and tears for this. My friends from home don't know what to say. You're on your own, kid.

[38:22] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Well, I'm going to end with this Taylor Swift quote was even on my worst day. Did I deserve Babe? All the hell you gave me because I loved you.

[38:31] CATHERINE HOYT: Do you love your science?

[38:32] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: I love my science and I love what the system could be. And I continue to be frustrated with the current system. But I'm optimistic to working towards something better.

[38:47] CATHERINE HOYT: Yeah, let's do it. Do you think your grandparents would be proud of you?

[38:53] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: I think so. They would have no idea what I'm doing.

[38:56] CATHERINE HOYT: My parents have no idea what I'm doing.

[38:58] JACLYN SCHWARTZ: Yeah, my parents don't have a great idea.