Jacobē Bell and Amber Smith

[00:02] JACOBY BELL: Hi, everyone. I'm Jacoby Bell. Today is Tuesday, January 11, 2022. I am located in New York City, and my conversation partner's name is Amber Smith, who is my colleague or co worker.

[00:20] AMBER SMITH: Hi, my name is Amber Smith, and today is Tuesday, January 11, 2022. And I am located in New York City. My conversations partner partner's name is Jacoby Bell, and we are colleagues at work.

[00:42] JACOBY BELL: So, Amber, we've been working on this NSI project with 16 middle schools to form a culturally responsive literacy network with 16 middle schools. And one thing I'm curious to kind of learn from you is, like, what has been one of your biggest AHA moments from your continuous improvement work in our network?

[01:09] AMBER SMITH: Yeah, I think one of the biggest aha moments from our work together over the past year and a half has been specifically around the importance of centering humanity and everything that we do. And specifically started with our meetings that you led with the coaches that were working with each of these 16 schools. And, yeah, I've just found how important it is in the meetings with teachers and in the conversation, in the conversations about students and families. That piece of just remembering the humanity of the people in the room has really gotten the work to go further and to go deeper versus, like, using some, you know, specific format or cycle or organizational tool or protocol that really, the center and humanity piece is what has driven the work to be more meaningful.

[02:13] JACOBY BELL: How was that a aha moment like for you?

[02:16] AMBER SMITH: I think so often in the world of education where. Where we work, that there's all these outcomes, right? And you have to get a, B, C, D done, and there's not very much time. And often, because of a shortage of time and an abundance of outcomes, there's not a lot of time that's given for people just to check in, like, how are you doing? Or to learn more about the multiple identities that everyone in the room carries with them into that space. And so by keeping that time sacred and following, like, team agendas based on the agendas that you set for our collaborative meetings as coaches, doing that in the space with teams and teachers around continuous improvement, it was just, like, held sacred. And I felt, okay, that if we didn't get to everything on the agenda, that was fine because of the example that you had set. And then what I found was we actually oftentimes later in the process would move faster or go deeper, because that's that time at the beginning of a meeting to really check in and get to know each other wasn't ignored. Does that make sense?

[03:37] JACOBY BELL: Yeah, it does. It's interesting to hear because I feel like in our coach coaches meeting when I would, like, plan the agendas, and I feel like some of that came from the drop back, the backdrop of COVID And, like, we all went from, like, working in schools, in the office to being, like, fully remote. And there's just so much going on. And I remember thinking, like, one, how do I equip people with, like, mindsets or behaviors that undergird culturally responsive education? Because so often it's like, people go right to like, oh, what are the books kids are reading? Or what's, you know, they go through, like, to tangible things like that. But then there's all these undergirding things. So, like, that was one thing going through my head, but then I think another thing going through my head was like, how do I be humanizing in this time? You know? And we were like, a new team that was newly formed for this project coming together, and we had all worked together. So I was like, how do I center humanity in this time? In ways that allow us to see the complexities of who we are and learn about, like, other people's cultures, identities, etcetera, in ways that will help us show up better for each other and also, like, at the school level. But actually, I don't even know if I. Like, I was thinking about it on the school level, but I don't know that I was thinking about it so explicitly as the way you just described. And so it was kind of cool to see that, like, or hear of what we did in our team meetings kind of translated and kind of created a model for the school level work. Yeah.

[05:26] AMBER SMITH: There was something that you said about, like, understand, like, understanding the complexity of others piece of it that I think it wasn't until the last year, our first year in the project concluded, that I was able to reflect and kind of see how the centering of humanity played a major role in the improvement piece. And I think that that piece that you said about the complexity of others is it really opened up space in our meetings around improvement science, which one of the, you know, key tenets is that it's user centered. And so when we started looking at the biggest users in education, right in these schools, which is the students and then their families, the. The identity work that we were doing personally, and then the learning about each other through authentic conversations and check ins in these meetings as adults and teachers, really opened up an easy segue into teachers and principals seeing the complexity of their students. And they weren't like a single test score or they weren't like, you know, a parent who, like, didn't return one phone call. Like, they're complex individuals just like we were. And so I think that, and I think it's really cool that, like, what you did maybe at first wasn't intentional, but it definitely impacted the way that I showed up in spaces.

[06:52] JACOBY BELL: That's so awesome. And I love that. So often, you're right, with all the layers of education, so often there's this pressure to, like, test scores, test scores, test scores which negates, like, the whole child and being a human and, like, you know, with many layers. So that's cool to hear.

[07:19] AMBER SMITH: Have you had any big aha moments from your work?

[07:25] JACOBY BELL: Yeah, so, ooh, I feel like a lot. So I think so prior to, like, leaning into the NSI work and continuous improvement, I'd been doing work with, like, increase cycles, etcetera. And I think I. When thinking about continuous improvement, the thing that really struck me was the root cause analysis. And, like, you know, first going slow to go fast later on, but then when going fast later on, being able to, like, learn quickly, fail quickly, and, like, iterate. And I think that was the ahomement moment for me because I feel like sometimes you can spend a whole school year with the strategy or practice that you're trying to, like, implement to make something better. And at the end of that year be like, well, that didn't go too well because it's like, the strategy I was using or what I was trying to implement didn't actually fit my problem, you know? So, like, for example, I remember at the school I was once working on, they wanted my help on their, like, RTI blog, and it was like a whole year thing. And at the end of the year it was like, oh, our issue was actually like teacher scheduling and like, I don't know, it was. The issue is just like something completely different, you know? And I often think about, like, if we had done, like, a short PDSA, would we have learned that earlier, you know, and been able to pivot earlier? So I think that's one aha moment I've kind of had when thinking about continuous improvement. I think another aha moment I've had a is surrounding data. Like, I feel like data is really powerful and it can be damning as well. Like, data can be used to, like, perpetuate deficit mindsets and certain narratives, etcetera and all. And I think, like, the deeper I kind of delve into continuous improvement, I also thought about data and, like, how to use data for equity if that makes sense. And, like, sometimes I felt like, like school improvement can feel very, what's the word? Rigid and. And not humanizing. And data can be used for that purpose. And I think something that's kind of been nice is like, in our network, like, through using our culture responsive survey that students take and then utilizing what they're saying for change has been helpful in like, shifting certain narratives. So I guess my aha moment was that, like, data doesn't always have to be. Feel rigid or be taken up in ways that can be detrimental, if that makes sense.

[10:42] AMBER SMITH: Yeah, I think that makes. Makes a lot of sense, actually. I can connect to your aha moments. I'm like, oh, wait, that's another aha moment for me. And the first thing you talked about in regards to how we learn in improvement science and what, like, the inquiry cycle looks like. And that's something that after a year of doing this with schools last year, one of my schools this year, when we were making our team norms and really wanted to make them authentic and something that we were going to use based on what we learned last year and how the experience was so different from what we knew about inquiry cycles that were much longer, was that continuous improvement? It's like, don't overcomplicate it. So that's one of our norms, don't overcomplicate it. What can we do next week and what can we try that's realistic that we're all going to be able to do and then come back and build on that next week, which was so opposite of what we really had, had experienced before. But it's then made. It's made everything less like, I think, scary. But also it's opened up people to be willing to try things they might not have tried before.

[12:03] JACOBY BELL: I know that's right. I so feel that, like, don't over complicate. And I feel like so often it's a easy to overcomplicate things because we work in a complex system. You know what I mean? So I love that norm. How do you like. So our network, we've really like focused on equity and its intersection with continuous improvement. And I'm curious of like, in what ways you see equity intersecting with continuous improvement in our work.

[12:41] AMBER SMITH: Yeah, I think the first way that I see it, which I also think is the most obvious way to see the intersection of equity and continuous improvement work, is the fact that one of the principles of improvement work is that you're supposed to make the work problem specific and user centered, which is like the first principle and it's the user centered piece that I think is a very strong intersection with equity. And the fact that we're not making up a narrative about the students, right, or about parents or about teachers. Wherever our problem of practice is that we're approaching, we're actually going to the students, we're going to the families, we're going to the teachers, and we're talking to them. So the pieces of the things that we did at the beginning to really start to the root cause analysis, to start to really understand all the different complexities, right, that come into a problem and that there's many different layers and many different angles with which you can look at it. And we did the empathy interviews and we actually went and talked to students and asked them questions. And I found that for a lot of teachers that not only, like, built empathy, but also, once again, returning to what we had talked about earlier, it centered the humanity of the student. So oftentimes, because these students that we're working with are at middle school and we're adults, sometimes it's easy to, I guess, brush off, oh, they're young, but they have needs and wants and desires and stories and experiences that have shaped who they are as 1112 and 13 year olds. And the empathy interviews and the panorama survey where they got to talk about the connections to the curriculum, the connections to their teachers and to other students in the classroom. One through a Likert scale, but also through getting to, like, write down specifics, I think also raised their voice to the surface more than a test score. And so they're not flat, one dimensional.

[14:51] JACOBY BELL: Yes, yes and yes, yes. And I think, like, part of that is a part of the improvement process, but I also think part of that is the, like, the intentionality of us, like, network leaders, right? Like, I know even when thinking about the aim of our network and thinking about, like, all the first examples that we were writing based upon examples of other networks we had seen who have this, who received a similar grant as us, they were about, like, proficiency rates, right? And I remember, like, just always feeling, like, a little uncomfortable with, like, okay, our network aim is like, you know, x percent of students will increase their state test scores or proficiency rates from x to y. And daddy, daddy, daddy. But I was like, that's just one, like, single flat narratives surrounding a school, surrounding a student, et cetera. And I was like, if that's our network aim, then it's going to turn all of our coaching conversations, it's going to turn our folk eye. This is going to turn everything into like a laser pin. Focus on that. And that's, like, not our work. Our work is, like, holistically making sure kids are on track for high school and beyond. Or, like. And when I say on track, I mean, gates have come out with measures on, like, what the on track measures are, but, like, on track meaning, like, they want to come to school, you know, that they do well in their classes, you know, etcetera. Like, they're basic things. And I didn't want to, like, minimize, you know, kids wanting to be in class or doing well in class because those are very much connected to, like, inclusivity, a sense of belonging, et cetera, to, like, a single narrative about a test score. You know what I mean? And so I think it was similar thinking to what you just named that kind of undergirded decisions to move away from, like, oh, our network is going to focus only on, like, you know, we're a literacy network, and we're going to focus on proficiency scores to one that over time, you know, we just shifted our aim to be include more. Right. And I think all of that is kind of from the equity stance.

[17:25] AMBER SMITH: And I guess, yeah, I only know it from the way it's been presented.

[17:28] JACOBY BELL: Right.

[17:29] AMBER SMITH: So I'm like, oh, this is just improvement science. But it's interesting to hear from you that it's part improvement science, part also kind of the clarity that you have around where are we going, how we're getting there, and, like, where your core. What are our core beliefs about kids and about education? And then how does that kind of, I guess, like, to your question, intersect with the components of improvement science?

[17:57] JACOBY BELL: Yeah. Yeah, that's good.

[18:00] AMBER SMITH: Another thing that I was actually thinking about, too, as far as an intersection, is the. The tenet of improvement science about variation and how oftentimes in education. And I think this was one of the big kind of selling pieces to a lot of my teams at the beginning, was this idea that improvement science allows for variation, and they want to understand. Right. The conditions. And so it's not what is it? It's like, not what works, but rather what works for whom and wherever or something. Or something like that is like the touch phrase.

[18:38] JACOBY BELL: Yeah.

[18:39] AMBER SMITH: And that's what, like, so many of the teachers have experience with. Is someone coming in from the district or from, you know, the city and saying, this is the curriculum we're using. This is the vocabulary strategy we're using. This is this one thing. And oftentimes the teachers have talked about how this initiative has felt like a square peg in a round hole because they're not thinking about the different variations of who's in these buildings. And even thinking about curriculum and thinking about a curriculum should be both windows, mirrors and sliding doors. Well, a school in Jamaica, Queens, looks very different as far as their student population when you think about race, ethnicity, nationality, languages spoken, et cetera, from a school in Bushwick, Brooklyn. Right. And how one type of curriculum isn't going to be mirrors, sliding doors and windows. And so the fact that this component of improvement science on variation, that takes that into account. I think there's also an intersection there with equity. And the fact that. Does that resonate with you at all?

[20:00] JACOBY BELL: Yeah, I mean, it's making me think about how. How, like, even with our PDSA cycles and like, some of the consolidation routines, the questions of getting at, like, okay, this worked well and was successful, and these were the results at this school. But, like, what were the conditions that made it possible? And really understanding the layers of that kind of get at that question of, like, what were the things that made it successful? What were the layers? Right. Because when we think about scale or spread or whatnot, it's those conditions that matter when thinking about, like, variation, etcetera, you know? So I hear what you're saying. Um, and I think that's one of the beautiful things about these, like, short increase cycles with PDSA cycles is that it allows you to, like, tweak things in a way, in kind of like a systematic way, but that's still kind of open, that allows you to see if something's a change or not. You know, it's like, okay, I'm going to try this curriculum, and I'm going to. One of our network change ideas is integrating identity questions into the curriculum. And so it makes me think about, oh, okay, so we're going to do this PDSA cycle where we're going to integrate identity questions into our lesson plans, our unit plans, etcetera, and we get to learn quickly how students are responding to that and iterate or pivot. And so I think that's one thing I appreciate is, I don't know, a systematic way to try something different. And then also when analyzing the thing that we try different across multiple schools, being able to ask the question of, like, well, what were the conditions that undergirded these results? And what does that mean on a larger scale?

[22:08] AMBER SMITH: And then if we're going to scale that, knowing that, we still have to think about variation. So I'm just like, thinking within a school is that there's variation within classes, you know, english language arts classes. And so there, you know, I have one school where we have a monolingual, like, Gen ed classroom. We have another where it's a transitional bilingual class, and all the students are new to the country learning English. All predominantly speak their home language is Spanish. Have another class that is a twelve to one to one. So a self contained classroom where it's smaller. All the students are in the same class the whole day. And I think that what seems to be more equitable about this process is that we can say these were the conditions that undergirded the success in this test. And so we'll try it again here. But also being mindful that if it doesn't work the same way here, that's okay, and we can start to unpack what were the differences in this condition in this classroom versus this classroom, and how might that need to be changed in this type of setting?

[23:18] JACOBY BELL: Absolutely. And it's not just about the students either, though. It's about the teachers. Right. Like, Covid, if anything, has taught us that, like coaching during COVID there's classrooms that, like, thrived in the remote environment, you know? And there were classrooms that it was a little harder without the paper pencil format, you know what I mean? And so even that's a condition now that we think about, like, being back in person and coaching in person and doing school in person is, you know, some teachers are still doing things online in the classrooms, like they're integrating technology and nearpod and stuff. Others are using paper and pencil. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but again, it's like a condition. That's a difference that may have an impact. Who knows? You know what I mean? Yeah.

[24:12] AMBER SMITH: Do you see any other, like. So from your point of view, which I feel is a little, you know, I'm very, like, school focused. And you see all the schools, all 16 schools, and then on top of that, like, you see, like, the bigger, like, kind of network vision. Are there any other ways that equity intersects with continuous improvement work from your point of view?

[24:34] JACOBY BELL: Mm. Mm hmm. I mean, I think at the most fundamental level, it's working to change the status quo. Right. The status quo that we know is racist classes and everything else, you know? Like, it's. It's not. And it's trying to do it in a way, in a way that is in partnership, like, with the schools we work with. You know what I mean? And so, like, I know one of my long term visions, one of my long term plans for the network is to think about like, the democratization of knowledge in the network and thinking about, like, okay, you know, as a second year network, we're relatively young, um, but thinking about, like, how. What would it look like next year to, um, have, like, almost an advisory board of school based people from our network, right. That really are our advisors, right. And that really help, like, drive where we're going and why, you know, and help us continually. Like, almost, like, I check and balance, if that makes sense. Like, but, like, so that the way we work isn't, oh, let me go check in with all the principals, whomever, to see, like, does this meet their need? But there would be, like, a system or a group in place that kind of inform all the different aspects so that when. So we're working, like, truly in partnership and not, like, surfacely in partnership, if that makes sense. I also think about it at the student level. I know part of our plan this year is in the spring, is to begin to think about bringing. So we did the empathy interviews, et cetera, last year and thinking about this year, like, how do we integrate students into our continuous improvement work at the school level, right? Like, they're who we're serving. You know what I mean? And so, like, how do we integrate them? So if we have weekly meetings with the ELA department, you know, there's no reason why potentially a student couldn't get a stipend to come and be a part of that and help drive that work as well, because, you know, like, right now, we talk about change ideas, and that's kind of driven from the data, from the teachers, from research, et cetera, from us, you know, et cetera. And what would it look like to also have students in on that conversation of, like, oh, here are the change ideas that we think would work well in our classroom. You know what I mean? So I kind of am thinking about it on multiple levels, long term, of, like, at the school level with students and teachers, but then also on the network level of, like, integrating school based people more authentically into our processes and how we work.

[28:04] AMBER SMITH: I feel that, like, both of those really resonate with me in thinking about making this process, the improvement, continuous improvement process generative in schools. And so, like, really, like you said, make having school based people that work as our advisory board feels like a really great next step. And so, like, moving toward that and then also just thinking about, like, students and how, like, students offer so much. Like, they have a different lens. You know, they see school, they see their environment in ways that, like, you know, we don't see it as adults. And. And I'm just, like, thinking back, like, in history of all the time that, you know, there's been really amazing, like, ideas or inventions or, like, social movements that have been started by, like, you know, 1213, 14, 1516 year olds. And so it's like, it's exciting to me to think about having students be a part of those meetings and what could be some really cool, innovative things that come out of that that I'm too old and too maybe narrow minded. Right. Like, to see.

[29:13] JACOBY BELL: Yeah. So I definitely think that's our, like, the students are part of the vision for this year and the advisory board for next year. But all of that is in the vein of, like, thinking more purposely on how to intersect, like, equity and continuous improvement, not just, you know, through a data perspective of, like, here are our measures that we want to improve as a network. Right. But, like, through a humanizing way, too, you know?

[29:48] AMBER SMITH: Yeah, I think that's probably one of my biggest challenges when I think about the continuous improvement work that we're doing and what our core beliefs are as a network. And it's this piece of all the, like, the system that we work in. Right. Of education nationally, but also within our context here in New York City. And there's all these, like, competing interests that oftentimes are dehumanizing to the student and to the teachers. And so it's like, in what ways can what we're doing in schools push against that? And I think we are in small ways. But then part of me, too, is, like, how do we push against that in bigger ways that that, like, pushes outside of these individual schools?

[30:40] JACOBY BELL: You know, it's. Yes, yes and yes, because I. That's attention. I think I kind of always felt from the very first time I learned about continuous improvement, I was like, oh, this is great, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And what about this? You know what I mean? And I definitely think continuous improvement has its place, like we're doing in schools and stuff. And I also wonder, like, what would it look like to do it at a systems level? You know, like, when I say systems level, I don't mean like, like. I mean, like, the top of the top doing it. But then also I kind of feel like, honestly, I don't know that, like, complete disruption is possible when trying to work within the system as well. Right? Was it Audre Lorde that said, like, the master's tools, like, can't dismantle the master's house or whatever? And so I kind of think about that too. And I'm like, yeah. Like, I kind of see how do we do both at the same time, right? So how do we make these incremental changes and how do we be disruptive as well? Like, how do we have those grassroots movements, or how do we form strategic partnerships that disrupt change on a larger level? That's. That's so funny. You name that, though, because it's something I have thought about for a while.

[32:23] AMBER SMITH: Yeah. And I think that's probably one of my tensions when you, you know, you bring up the Audre Lorde quote about dismantling the master's house with the master's tools. And it's like, some of the things that we. That we have that we use within this continuous improvement work and within this grant are things like test scores, and I believe standardized tests are one of those things. Right? That's like, it is the masters tool that we then are also still using to show growth. And so I just feel a lot of tension there, you know? And so I'm glad that we have other means of collecting data, and I wonder if that's a little bit of, like, what you're talking about. Yes. And, like, we do both, right? We have this because we're in the system, but we're also going to do these other things as well.

[33:11] JACOBY BELL: Right? I think it's definitely a both. And because unless we're gathering and, you know, gonna, like, try to dismantle everything right now, we gotta, you know, work on the smaller scale at the same time, you know, do both. That's interesting, though. It also makes me think about, though, like, like, that's definitely a challenge for me. I think, for me, that's a challenge. That's more like it's attention, I feel. I think, like a technical challenge that I'm facing with improvement, continuous improvement work right now from, like, a network perspective is, you know, thinking about what the backdrop of COVID and us being in and out of schools and, you know, what schools are like right now. Like, I was out of school yesterday. It's like 18 teachers out. A lot of the students are absent, you know, like, and so amongst that backdrop and we think about a network of schools coming together to, like, collaborate, learn from one another, etcetera, when there's, like, these other, like, strong competing interests that need to be prioritized. You know what I mean? How not to, like, lose momentum surrounding, like, networking and learning from one another and also thinking about change when people are burnt out. You know, everyone's burnt out and tired at this point. You know, I think that's like a technical challenge that I have kind of now as a network leader, like navigating that, you know?

[34:57] AMBER SMITH: Oh, yeah. I mean, I. Yes. The school I was at today, this is the second week in a row that they've had to cancel our improvement science meeting because they didn't have enough staff. And so half of the ELA teachers were covering that period and, like, they made completely new schedules for everyone. So you think about like the, like, you know, continuing on with the work and it's like, okay, so three weeks from now, let's get back to the data.

[35:23] JACOBY BELL: Let's.

[35:24] AMBER SMITH: Let's implement that change idea again. You know, and you're right, it's like, it's the logistical pieces or like the, you know, the, the district says this is the initiative we have to do. So we need to use part of your improvement science meeting time to talk about, you know, this specific thing because it's the only time all the elite teachers are together and I'm so thankful that they gave that time to me.

[35:48] JACOBY BELL: Right.

[35:50] AMBER SMITH: I think they're also like, yeah, we gave that time to you, but you do also realize there's a cost to that, right? Like sometimes.

[36:01] JACOBY BELL: It'S. Yeah, but like, so despite those challenges, I guess what is the most exciting aspect of the work right now for you?

[36:11] AMBER SMITH: You know, so I really love, like, getting to do the individual, like, coaching work with teachers. And what's been so great about the way this is structured, our network is that we have this improvement science meeting with all of the teachers together. And then I'm doing coaching cycles with two to three teachers for like four to six weeks. And what's really great is to see kind of how those coaching cycles have become even more rich based on the work that's happening in the improvement science space. And so it's just really exciting to see how that's going to continue to evolve and how, like, the work is about maybe the identity questions that we're doing, but then also how that seeps into our conversations as adults and how we interact with each other and how we can have a more authentic relationship because of that. Yeah, I just think what's exciting is, I feel like, well, it brings a lot of challenges and a lot of other work that is new to the coaching space. It also, I think, is, is deepening the work that I'm doing with individual teachers. And also it's been, it's been kind of cool once we start to get into a cycle, like teachers are really, like, sometimes at first a little bit wary of, like, oh, you know, it feels like one more thing, but then just to see them come back in a meeting and, like, talk about how it went and. Yeah. And they. And they see, like. And oftentimes, the responses have been, well, the students were smiling. They were excited. They said this. They said that they were talking more, which in this time of, like, Covid 2.0 with masks and desks and straight rows, there's still this piece of community that's really hard to build in classrooms. And I think that because of the work that we're doing and we're centering that piece, that's not necessarily getting centered from the bigger system. That's, like, data. Data based on these, like, you know, common measures. I'm excited that we're still doing that and that teachers are still, like, implementing. Implementing it for. Because I think that's what kids need.

[38:24] JACOBY BELL: That's exciting, honestly, that overlaps with, like, the excitement I feel every week is, like, checking in with each of you and, like, hearing or seeing the, like, artifacts from the PDSA cycles and seeing, like, you know, hearing about the class that tried the perspectrum discussion protocol for the first time, you know, or hearing about how, like, the identity questions has helped, like, increase engagement based upon, like, our Likert skill survey. Like, that's exciting to me, and that's, like, why we do this work, you know? So despite, like, some of the other tensions, I feel it's like, these little wins. Like, I don't know, it's what keeps me going, you know? But I know we're about out of time, so. Thank you, Amber.

[39:10] AMBER SMITH: Yeah, thank you, Jacoby. It was really great to hear your experiences with continuous improvement from, like, a different point of view and lens.

[39:20] JACOBY BELL: Agreed. It was really helpful. Like, as much as we work together, I don't know that we always, like, talk so explicitly about improvement science, so it's also cool to see how, like, the network influences what happens in the field and et cetera. So thank you.